647 replies to this topic

[DaleCooper]

If people think that Vettel is on the same level as Hamilton or Alonso, then yes he may be overrated. But he is a match for anybody else, except for Schumacher, who may yet find his old form and dominate ... or not.

Hamilton goes after the juggular, he is a driver that seeks the slightest advantage and usually makes it count. Vettel has nowhere near this ability, at least not yet, and I doubt he will develop it, it's not something you just pick up. So even if, hypothetically, they had comparable speed, the racecraft is in Hamilton's and even Alonso's favour. But Vettel definitely seems like the driver with the most potential, so overall, I expect him to win a championship or three at some point, given a sufficiently quick and reliable car. Next year though? Definitely possible, though not yet predominantly likely.

Cooper

[Buckethead]

Has he ever overtaken someone when fighting for position in the front of the pack?

[RedDawn]

Buckethead, on Dec 31 2009, 07:55, said:

Has he ever overtaken someone when fighting for position in the front of the pack?

I dont recall it. Infact I dont recall any impressive drives from him that didnt involve pole with the fastest car.

[FlashMaster]

No!

Why should he be overrated? He already trashed Webber this year in Qualifying and Webber was said to be one of the best qualyfiers. In my eyes Vettel just needs more experience which will help him to avoid silly mistakes and gain more consistent race pace.

[korzeniow]

Mandzipop, on Dec 31 2009, 00:50, said:

If he'd [Vettel] have been in the Brawn he'd have won the WDC.

So, nowadays to claim WDC you don't need the best car overall like RBR but the fastest car only at the begining of the season? LOL, that's so stupid....

[potmotr]

skipper, on Dec 30 2009, 22:19, said:

Ok. But where was Kubica then?
Sorry, but the topic is about Vettel, am I right?
So, Vettel is overrated

Sure, but I was answering your question...

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

craftverk, on Dec 31 2009, 00:15, said:

why are you rolling your eyes?

Because Harry Dreams comment is nonsense, that´s why.
What are you suggesting? That he was able to lead a F1 GP for 17 laps with defective brakes in a car that most of his supporters claim was uncompetitive to begin with? Please, don´t insult the intelligence of the other posters on this forum. This is Hamitup we´re talking about here, not God.
F1 is a business where a 1% mechanical advantage or disadvantage is considered significant because of the extremely competitive nature of the sport. Just because Louis claims he had braking problems from the get go is hardly a reason to stop thinking rationally, particularly given his record of, shall we say, distorting the facts.;)
As this was discussed at length at the time, and given the topic of this tread, as far as I´m concerned this matter is now closed.

[marchi-91]

PNSD, on Dec 31 2009, 06:15, said:

Thats the problem I see...

Lewis did not need that experience to reach that level.

He was at that level from Australia 07.

Vettel is not the real deal imo. He is not at Lewis's or Alonso's level. The two benchmark drivers in F1 atm.

If you don't think Lewis has made just as many **** ups as Vettel you need your eyes checked. In fact he's probably made more.

[Bishy]

FlashMaster, on Dec 31 2009, 08:17, said:

Why should he be overrated?

Because muppetts in the Media are rating him alongside Lewis/Alonso that's why, wrongly in my opinion.

FlashMaster, on Dec 31 2009, 08:17, said:

In my eyes Vettel just needs more experience which will help him to avoid silly mistakes and gain more consistent race pace.

He needs to learn to race/overtake as next year threatens to magnify this inability.

Just how much more experience does he need do you reckon? Did you perchance see what Lewis did without experience in his first year in a top car?

It's funny watching people scrabble about for excuses about the car, you can't use it when the teamate in the same car is doing what you claim to be impossible - they claim the RB couldn't follow others well; I saw Webber follow and overtake KERS cars so please, try again - how was Mark able to overtake cars with the dreaded button without constantly whining about it? - they claim the Brawn was weaker in the second half of the season hence Jenson's run without wins; I saw his teamate rack up a number of impressive drives in that very same car so yet again another invalid excuse.

Next year will no doubt solidify a number of reputations and debunk a few myths, I can't wait!

[korzeniow]

ex Rhodie racer 2, on Dec 31 2009, 10:18, said:

What are you Hamitup fan boys suggesting? That he was able to lead a F1 GP for 17 laps with defective brakes in a car that most of his supporters claim was uncompetitive to begin with?

furthermore they are suggestin that Lewis made his fastest lap with defective breaks...

[jeze]

halifaxf1fan, on Dec 31 2009, 06:07, said:

bernie doesn't think Vettel is overrated, he is picking him to win in 2010.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80696

Everybody knows that Bernie is a Vettel fanboy, that's why that adds up Honestly, I don't take Bernie's predictions too seriously.

[Victor_RO]

jeze, on Dec 31 2009, 11:29, said:

Everybody knows that Bernie is a Vettel fanboy, that's why that adds up Honestly, I don't take Bernie's predictions too seriously.

And furthermore, Bernie's endorsement of any driver has been known to be a "kiss of death" for that driver's following season.

[potmotr]

jeze, on Dec 31 2009, 09:29, said:

Everybody knows that Bernie is a Vettel fanboy, that's why that adds up Honestly, I don't take Bernie's predictions too seriously.

Bernie is just keeping the fire going.

His opinion of the driver who'll win the world championship varies depending on which market he's aiming at.

Some of his opinions are pretty old school, but he still knows how to work the market.

[Szoelloe]

no. sebastien vettel is definately not overrated.

[jeze]

Victor_RO, on Dec 31 2009, 10:33, said:

And furthermore, Bernie's endorsement of any driver has been known to be a "kiss of death" for that driver's following season.

I know he went with Felipe Massa for the 2007 title, but which others have been given his public support?

[potmotr]

jeze, on Dec 31 2009, 10:24, said:

I know he went with Felipe Massa for the 2007 title, but which others have been given his public support?

I thought he backed Alonso on the grid in Brazil in 2006?

[Victor_RO]

jeze, on Dec 31 2009, 12:24, said:

I know he went with Felipe Massa for the 2007 title, but which others have been given his public support?

I recall Kimi in 2004, and you can probably remember how near-disastrously that season turned out.

[Captain Tightpants]

I don't think Vettel is over-rated. I think he's fast, but he just needs to channel his raw speed into something a little more refined.

[Muppetmad]

Turbo4, on Dec 31 2009, 00:17, said:

but Kubica whines like a bitch.

You name me one driver who wouldn't if he was in a good position to go for the championship but was then told that the team wanted to focus on next year's car and bring his team mate back up to speed instead of helping him, practically guaranteeing his failure.

As for the question about Vettel... I think he is sometimes overrated. When he drives well he does drive very well, but when he doesn't, he looks pretty average. People always defend his poor drives as "lack of experience" or "his age" but Hamilton was slated for even tiny mistakes in his rookie year. As far as I'm concerned, Vettel should be treated in the same way Hamilton has been.

Edited by Muppetmad, 31 December 2009 - 10:34.

[Seanspeed]

Bishy, on Dec 30 2009, 16:52, said:

In your opinion Seanspeed, millions of fans of both would insist otherwise so that's a moot point.

As has been discussed above (and I happen to agree with) Lewis / Kimi or Alonso would have taken the WDC in the '09 Red Bull it was that fast, I don't buy the bull about it "not following other cars well" as I saw quite a few impressive overtaking moves from Webber but sadly none that stand out for the young German.

He's a superstar as you say but only an excitable teen fan (after watching Twilight) would honestly rank him alongside the WDC's on the grid.

Of course its just my opinion.

I could equally say that saying that 'only excitable teen fans would honestly rank him alongside the WDC's of the grid' is moot because its just your opinion.

See how that works?

[patgaw]

Turbo4, on Dec 31 2009, 01:17, said:

but Kubica whines like a bitch.

but he is 100 times better then brainless Vettel.

Edited by patgaw, 31 December 2009 - 10:42.

[FlashMaster]

patgaw, on Dec 31 2009, 11:41, said:

but he is 100 times better then brainless Vettel.

In your dreams

[Seanspeed]

FlashMaster, on Dec 31 2009, 05:57, said:

In your dreams

Is this going to delve into a 'who has the most unclever and immature *come back*' thread?

[Arion]

jeze, on Dec 31 2009, 10:24, said:

I know he went with Felipe Massa for the 2007 title, but which others have been given his public support?

He said a different name in every interview.

I think Vettel's "potential" is overrated, people are not rating him for what he's shown, but what he could become.

Edited by Arion, 31 December 2009 - 11:18.

[jjcale]

Jolkins, on Dec 30 2009, 22:05, said:

EDIT: Look at this one - There isn't really much between those two

Thanks that was brilliant.

SV's racecraft issue is well documented. His speed and wet weather ability are also well known. I dont propose to add to that.

For me SV represents one of the current routes into F1... a quick move from F3 level. I am not a fan of this. I think that young drivers should take the time to develop their skills in lower formulae before coming to F1. There is more to being an F1 driver than simply blistering speed. Aside from Senna none of the past F1 champs over the past couple of decades of "modern F1" could claim to be "the Fastest" (... apologies to MS fans but even he says he was the "most complete/determined/disciplined" as opposed to "the fastest"). Lower down the F1 rung relative speed is probably even less relevant to success given that so many drivers (much more than are on the grid at any given time) possess great speed. Drivers like RB, GF and DC who have had long and successful careers in recent times could not claim to have been the fastest or even particularly fast compared to the rest of the grid. Drivers who have been held up as "fast" eg JT and MW have not done any better than them.

What makes drivers great ... or gives them logevity in the sport is not just speed - which seems too come naturally. The other attributes have to be learned, like ability to contribute to car development and raceday set-up for instance. These can only be learned by driving F1 cars but other skills like raceraft driving powerful (and probably intimidating) cars can be learned in lower formulae. When drivers are plucked from F3 (sometimes with less than half a full season under their belts) they dont get a chance to properly develop their racecraft so JA end up out of his depth and SV end up as a time trial specialists rather than a proper racer. Even a partial failure in GP2 like KK looks like a decent (if somewhat wild) racer in a good F1 car compared to those 2.

SV did not get a chance to develop much beyond the level of raceraft shown in the video. LH moved on to GP2 and by the time he got to F1 he could go 9 podiums in a row and hanlde himself in the first corners. SV by contrast tended to crash out of races in the first lap in his first season before he go an improved car (around Monaco?) which allowed him to qualify higher and avoid some dramas. Next season Nico H and L di G will show the benefits of a long lower formulae apprenticeship. Nico H has speed (though probably not as much as SV) and he will have well developed racecraft and genuine confidence in his abilities (sometimes called arrogance on forums). I expect that he will displace SV as the "heir to Shumie" and the "one to watch" over the course of a couple of seasons.

I expect that SV's raceraft will improve but it is a shame that this has to occur in the glare of publicity while fighting for valuable points in F1. He could have devoloped much more with a year in GP2 than he will be able to over the next few years in F1. I am in the minority in not expecting him to become a WDC - even with Adrian Newey designing his car. I do not think that he will overcome his defects in racecraft (and probably other areas that may also exist but which we cannot pick up on easily as mere fans) quickly enough not to become a bit of a disappointment and be overtaken by newer but more complete drivers like Nico H. KR was the last "underdeveloped" WDC and he took 7 years in the sport, a more to Ferrari and LH/FA squabbling and LH "choking(??)" to achieve it. I think it would take a similar allignment of stars for SV to be WDC.

So, yes, I think he is overrated.

[jeze]

Seanspeed, on Dec 31 2009, 12:02, said:

Is this going to delve into a 'who has the most unclever and immature *come back*' thread?

Thanks to such guys the strike rate of closed threads have increased remarkably over the last year or two

[Arion]

jjcale, on Dec 31 2009, 11:14, said:

Thanks that was brilliant.

SV's racecraft issue is well documented. His speed and wet weather ability are also well known. I dont propose to add to that.

For me SV represents one of the current routes into F1... a quick move from F3 level. I am not a fan of this. I think that young drivers should take the time to develop their skills in lower formulae before coming to F1.

Wasn't he in World series by Renault? actually most have heaps of experience in lower formula these days, Kubica, Hamilton, Rosberg, Heikki, Hulkenberg, Piquet, Grosjean all raced in F3, then either GP2 or WSR.

Edited by Arion, 31 December 2009 - 11:36.

[jjcale]

Arion, on Dec 31 2009, 11:35, said:

Wasn't he in World series by Renault?

3 of 17 races in 06 and 7 of 17 races in 07. His attention was really focused on F1, much like JA's despite the fact that he still did some F3 races after his F1 debut.

Arion, on Dec 31 2009, 11:35, said:

actually most have heaps of experience in lower formula these days, Kubica, Hamilton, Rosberg, Heikki, Hulkenberg, Piquet, Grosjean all raced in F3, then either GP2 or WSR.

Those drivers listed arnt the ones that I have a problem with. I think they all came up the right way and are good drivers - even NP and RG. My problem is with the fast tracked drivers, like SV (who this thread is about) and JA.... and also Redbull's apparent preference for fast-tracking drivers.

[potmotr]

Pressure errors to one side for a second, Vettel's race craft seems spot on.

My question is his ultimate speed.

BMW's decision to release Vettel in 2007 seems really curious.

In 2006 BMW had no qualms about ditching Villeneuve for Kubica after Kubica had proved much faster than JV or Nick Heidlfeld in testing.

The team must have viewed Vettel as slower than Kubica and Heidfeld in 2007, otherwise they'd surely have made space for him, probably by ditching Quick Nick.

So if Vettel really is a topliner now, his speed must have increased in a steep curve through 2008 and 2009.

Pole laps like in China this year, with only one attempt in each session, show that he's now pretty fast.

[Anomnader]

potmotr, on Dec 31 2009, 12:07, said:

Pressure errors to one side for a second, Vettel's race craft seems spot on.

My question is his ultimate speed.

BMW's decision to release Vettel in 2007 seems really curious.

BMW also told Frank they wouldn't support him in taking Lewis on after him and mclaren had a fallout in F3.

BMW seemed to have a problem recognising young talent.

Edited by Anomnader, 31 December 2009 - 12:10.

[Arion]

ok 10 races after F3, so he had half season less experience in lower series than the other drivers of his generation on the grid, not that much a difference to me. More important than one extra year of experience beyond F3 is the condition of your debut. Grosjean jumped into the car mid-season with virtually no testing, up against Alonso as teammate, the car was a real lemon. In contrast, Vettel's teammates have been pretty weak until Webber, and being in a midfield, junior team, there's less expectation to bring in results. RedBull has the habit of giving their rookies half a chance, but generally they have done better than those from the Renault program.

[potmotr]

Anomnader, on Dec 31 2009, 12:09, said:

BMW also told Frank they wouldn't support him in taking Lewis on after him and mclaren had a fallout in F3.

I'd have backed BMW on that one actually.

Anthony Hamilton would have been crazy to break ranks with McLaren after that bad season with Manor in 2004.

Eventually Lewis was placed back in F3 Euroseries and won it, then did GP2 and won that too.

He arrived in F1 as probably the best prepared rookie ever.

If he'd taken another path he may well have had a career trajectoy more like Nico Rosberg's.

[Tenmantaylor]

He didnt quite live up to his ability in terms of consistency this year but he did in terms of raw pace. As a driver I definitely don't think he is overrated. As a single minded team leader like Lewis has positioned himself in McLaren maybe he is. His temperament seemed odd at times this year. Im sure this was a result of his personal desire clashing with his jovial personality inside the team. Im sure he'll be in the title hunt again next year however.

[craftverk]

jjcale, on Dec 31 2009, 11:14, said:

Aside from Senna none of the past F1 champs over the past couple of decades of "modern F1" could claim to be "the Fastest" (... apologies to MS fans but even he says he was the "most complete/determined/disciplined" as opposed to "the fastest").

Not wanting to derail the topic but why would he (Michael) proclaim to be the fastest? Did Senna ever do that? Does that mean he isn't the quickest using that logic? Some of Schumacher's Q2 times relative to Massa in 2006 were unbelievable, just look at his lap record time in Suzuka that year in my sig.


That video though was pretty good too I have to say

[LoudHoward]

I think on this forum, it's perhaps a case of Mark Webber being somewhat underrated.

I also think the idea of one season showing definitively anything is also over abused, circumstances, car characteristics, experience, all these things are constantly changing variables.

[craftverk]

ex Rhodie racer 2, on Dec 31 2009, 09:18, said:

Because Harry Dreams comment is nonsense, that´s why.
What are you suggesting? That he was able to lead a F1 GP for 17 laps with defective brakes in a car that most of his supporters claim was uncompetitive to begin with? Please, don´t insult the intelligence of the other posters on this forum. This is Hamitup we´re talking about here, not God.
F1 is a business where a 1% mechanical advantage or disadvantage is considered significant because of the extremely competitive nature of the sport. Just because Louis claims he had braking problems from the get go is hardly a reason to stop thinking rationally, particularly given his record of, shall we say, distorting the facts.;)
As this was discussed at length at the time, and given the topic of this tread, as far as I´m concerned this matter is now closed.

And how is it nonsense?

A rogue brake pad will always affect the car and it will get progressively worse and your pace will be affected, are you denying that?

Edited by Gareth, 31 December 2009 - 12:54.
personal comments removed

[velgajski1]

Yes, he is overrated. He is often put in same category as Lewis/Alonso or even called 'next Schumacher' but he didn't really show why - barely beat Webber who is average or slightly above average midfield racer and failed to win championship in a car that was clearly capable (I'm pretty much convinced that both Lewis and Alonso would win WDC in this years Red Bull or at least kept the battle open until very end). I do have to note his superb talent, but Alonso/Lewis/Massa/Button are all better than him in my opinion.

Three of the most overrated drivers in F1 today are Kubica, Rosberg and Vettel. What they have in common is that they are young, fast and capable of some superb races, but very unimpressive on a bad day. Also, because they're young - everyone forgets their mistakes very quickly.

My prediction is that Vettel will build a superb F1 career (I think he will win one or two WDC's), but he'll need a season or two to get on Alonso/Lewis level.

Edited by velgajski1, 31 December 2009 - 12:46.

[potmotr]

LoudHoward, on Dec 31 2009, 12:34, said:

I think on this forum, it's perhaps a case of Mark Webber being somewhat underrated.

I also think the idea of one season showing definitively anything is also over abused, circumstances, car characteristics, experience, all these things are constantly changing variables.

Fair point.

And I agree with you on Webber.

[BunnyK]

I don't think he's overrated, he's the youngest poleman and race winner, stealing that record from FA, in a Toro Rosso in the rain. In his first season with a competitive car he's got a second place. He has made too many mistakes to fight for the championship, it's true, but he looks more confident under pressure than Hamilton for example, but Lewis is more consistent through the season. He's learning very quickly, and probably in the next years he'll be WC, but he's not at the level of FA or LH at the moment.

[craftverk]

BunnyK, on Dec 31 2009, 12:54, said:

I don't think he's overrated, he's the youngest poleman and race winner, stealing that record from FA, in a Toro Rosso in the rain. In his first season with a competitive car he's got a second place. He has made too many mistakes to fight for the championship, it's true, but he looks more confident under pressure than Hamilton for example, but Lewis is more consistent through the season. He's learning very quickly, and probably in the next years he'll be WC, but he's not at the level of FA or LH at the moment.

Didn't Bourdais qualify fourth?

[Sakae]

potmotr, on Dec 31 2009, 07:07, said:

Pressure errors to one side for a second, Vettel's race craft seems spot on.

My question is his ultimate speed.

BMW's decision to release Vettel in 2007 seems really curious.

In 2006 BMW had no qualms about ditching Villeneuve for Kubica after Kubica had proved much faster than JV or Nick Heidlfeld in testing.

The team must have viewed Vettel as slower than Kubica and Heidfeld in 2007, otherwise they'd surely have made space for him, probably by ditching Quick Nick.

So if Vettel really is a topliner now, his speed must have increased in a steep curve through 2008 and 2009.

Pole laps like in China this year, with only one attempt in each session, show that he's now pretty fast.

From your post one gets impression that BMW had a choice to keep or let go of him. I for one believe that it is well documented that due to commercial agreements in place BMW actually was powerless, and had no choice whatsoever over decision to keep him. Red Bull was in driving seat, and they had excercised that option. Nothing curious about that. I was initially quite mad over that because I thought it was his career ending move, but fortunately AN saved the day, and rest is history.

[Anssi]

I think in general these sort of questions are impossible to answer. It's so subjective I don't even try to come up with an answer to that.

[Bishy]

craftverk, on Dec 31 2009, 13:03, said:

Didn't Bourdais qualify fourth?

You can't say that; that would insinuate the Torro Rosso was the car to have in the wet and it wasn't Vettel's genius that day...

[SAFC09]

Bishy, on Dec 31 2009, 13:39, said:

You can't say that; that would insinuate the Torro Rosso was the car to have in the wet and it wasn't Vettel's genius that day...

Exactly

Although it was a brilliant performance, i'd bet if it was Lewis and not Heikki on the front row with him he wouldn't have had that race his own way

[Bishy]

Seanspeed, on Dec 31 2009, 10:32, said:

Of course its just my opinion.

I could equally say that saying that 'only excitable teen fans would honestly rank him alongside the WDC's of the grid' is moot because its just your opinion.

See how that works?

Of course and that's what's being discussed here - opinion of him which according to some us is too high for what he's actually (or not) achieved.

If I said Lewis was as great as Schumacher i'd get laughed at, the same applies if you try (as the Media are, hence the OP) and rank Vettel alongside a WDC; soon maybe, for now it's too much too soon...

[jeze]

Looking at my first post, everyone can see that I'm no Vettel basher, I just think that he has his peaks and valleys, and is not consistent enough to deserve his reputaion. That he can occasionally be mega in the wet is nothing new, but he can be horrifyingly slow in such conditions as well. Monza in 2008 was one of his 'up' days, but that doesn't make him any less overrated.

[potmotr]

MiPe, on Dec 31 2009, 13:16, said:

From your post one gets impression that BMW had a choice to keep or let go of him. I for one believe that it is well documented that due to commercial agreements in place BMW actually was powerless, and had no choice whatsoever over decision to keep him. Red Bull was in driving seat, and they had excercised that option. Nothing curious about that. I was initially quite mad over that because I thought it was his career ending move, but fortunately AN saved the day, and rest is history.

Sure, but if BMW really thought he was the next big thing they could have bought out his contract couldn't they?

Everyone always talks about Vettel slipping through BMW's fingers, as though they could have made it happen.

[Sakae]

SAFC09, on Dec 31 2009, 08:46, said:

Exactly

Although it was a brilliant performance, i'd bet if it was Lewis and not Heikki on the front row with him he wouldn't have had that race his own way

This is a circular argument, because he had a front row, and he got it by driving for it. I can suggest to you if Lewis didn't have KERS on his car in 2009, Seb would have captured most likely his first WDC. If Timo didn't have brain fade in last turn, Lewis would not have his WDC. We could go about this whole day, but at the end, results are in, we know all IFs, but that's wasted.

[Sakae]

potmotr, on Dec 31 2009, 09:05, said:

Sure, but if BMW really thought he was the next big thing they could have bought out his contract couldn't they?

Everyone always talks about Vettel slipping through BMW's fingers, as though they could have made it happen.

I am not privy to contractual details, thus I cannot say whether that had even tried to buy him out, but on face of it, what would have been reasons for even trying? How Dr. T could justify to his board paying big bucks over and above standard fee for (then) an unproven driver? Obviously being German national was not enough motivation, and there was no (Seb's) F1 track record to lean on. Today probably we would have see something different, but 20-20 vision is luxury I have, not what was available then to BMW.

From experience I wish to also add, that Germans have habit to stick to their budget. To find extra cash for buy-out of Vettel's contract might (I am guessing) put them over the budget, and thus with little to lean on to justify deviation, Seb had to go. Second theory is, that cash was there, but RB simply said NO to it.

[potmotr]

MiPe, on Dec 31 2009, 14:44, said:

I am not privy to contractual details...

Good post man, makes a lot of sense.