41 replies to this topic

[Hugo Boecker]

We have already dealt with the 1960's Championship here
In "The Motor Reference Year Book" 1959 and 1960 winners for the years 58 and 59 were given.
1958 - Cooper and 1959 Cooper as well. I think in 59 Cooper-Borgward won the trophy. I found nothing in our D.Nye's "Cooper Cars". So there a some open questions.
Which races counted in 58 and 59 ?
What point system?

[David McKinney]

As the link from your post says, the only FIA F2 Championship was in 1960

Apart from that there was The Autocar Championship for British licence-holders, won by Tony Marsh 1957, Jack Brabham 1958, Stirling Moss 1959 and Jack Lewis 1960. There may have been a constructors' title as well, which would have gone to Cooper every yeaar

Edited by David McKinney, 12 February 2010 - 22:13.

[Hugo Boecker]

As the link from your post says, the only FIA F2 Championship was in 1960

Are you sure ?

so there must be more

[David McKinney]

Interesting

[Roger Clark]

The Motor Racing report of the October ;57 CSI meeting (11/57 edition) said: "The FIA to present two cups in 1958 to racing car manufacturers, one for F1, one for F2"

The Autosport reveiw of the 1958 Formula 2 season concluded: "This completed the season, the Casablanca win securing for Cooper the Constructors' Championship."

Edited by Roger Clark, 13 February 2010 - 07:23.

[Hugo Boecker]

The Motor Racing report of the October ;57 CSI meeting (11/57 edition) said: "The FIA to present two cups in 1958 to racing car manufacturers, one for F1, one for F2"

The Autosport reveiw of the 1958 Formula 2 season concluded: "This completed the season, the Casablanca win securing for Cooper the Constructors' Championship."

That looks that the 58 Championship was held in conjunction with the f1-championship. But 59 seems to be another story.

[Roger Clark]

That looks that the 58 Championship was held in conjunction with the f1-championship. But 59 seems to be another story.

I'm not sure why you say that. Do you have other information of events counting towards the 1958 championship?

Edited by Roger Clark, 13 February 2010 - 09:48.

[hansfohr]

That looks that the 58 Championship was held in conjunction with the f1-championship. But 59 seems to be another story.

In 1958 and 1959 the following F2 races were held in conjunction with F1 GP's without any evidence (from my part) that they were rounds for any kind of FIA-granted F2 championship.

(in brackets winner F2 class)

19.04.1958 Aintree (Tony Brooks, Cooper-Climax T43, 3rd overall) NON-WC
03.05.1958 Silverstone (Cliff Allison, Lotus-Climax 12, 6th overall) NON-WC
03.08.1959 Nürburgring (Bruce McLaren, Cooper-Climax T45, 5th overall)
19.10.1958 Casablanca (Jack Brabham, Cooper-Climax T45, 11th overall)

18.04.1959 Aintree (Mike Taylor, Cooper-Climax T45, 5th overall) NON-WC
02.05.1959 Silverstone (Jim Russell, Cooper-Climax T45, 7th overall) NON-WC
10.05.1959 Monaco (3 F2 cars on grid, all crashed on lap 1)
18.07.1959 Silverstone (Chris Bristow, Cooper-Borgward, 10th overall)

Edited by hansfohr, 13 February 2010 - 11:26.

[David McKinney]

As I didn't know (or more likely had forgotten) that there were Constructors' Championships in 1958 and 1959, I don't know what races counted.

However, I think most if not all would have been stand-alone F2 races.

In 1958, eg, Pau, Rheims, Clermont-Ferrand, either or both of the August Brands Hatch races, and Avus might have been the qualifiers. If F2 classes of F1 races were included, I doubt they would have extended beyond the WDC races of Germany and Morocco.

Similarly, in 1959 qualifying events might have been at Syracuse, Pau, Rheims, Rouen, Clermont-Ferrand and one or two August Brands Hatch races.

In 1960, when there was a drivers' championship as well, the rounds were Syracuse, Brussels, Pau, Aintree 200 and the German GP - all F2-only events, only one in each country.

Edited by David McKinney, 13 February 2010 - 15:42.

[Allen Brown]

A question that TNF cannot answer?

[raceannouncer2003]

Here are links to races specificially for Formula 2 cars, or races which included them, in 1958 and 1959.

http://www.formula2.net/F258_Index.htm

http://www.formula2.net/F259_Index.htm

In 1958, these were mostly in Great Britain and France, with two in Germany and one the Moroccan GP.

In 1959, these were again mostly in Great Britain and France, with one in Austria and one the Monaco GP.

I don't know which of these would have counted towards a "Coupe des Constructeurs, Voitures de Course, Formula 2."

Vince H.

[Hugo Boecker]

A question that TNF cannot answer?

The "Motor" shows in his Yearbook Cooper is the winner. So there must be something inside "The Motor" in 1958 or 1959. Or in the FIA/CSI Yearbook or similar.

[Rupertlt1]

I wonder if this helps? Canada Track & Traffic, July 1960, Page 35 refers to "the 1959 World's Championship Formula Two Cooper-Climax," entered in the Carling 300 at Harewood Acres, May 27-28, 1960. The driver was Bill Bradley (no relation) of Detroit, #72, entered by Hazel Park Welding Company. (They also fielded #73 Cooper Monaco for N.J. Hartman.) The F2 car was "heavily damaged" during this event. Later appeared in the Formula Libre event, Watkins Glen, Oct 9, 1960, #23, retired 75 laps. Do we know anything more about the origin of this car?  

Edited by Rupertlt1, 09 October 2013 - 12:14.

[William Hunt]

@ raceannouncer2003, formula2.net is a wonderful siter  that I've known for many years but ... it does not have championship tables for all seasons.

[Allen Brown]

This remains a question that TNF cannot answer.  One of very few I think!

[raceannouncer2003]

I wonder if this helps? Canada Track & Traffic, July 1960, Page 35 refers to "the 1959 World's Championship Formula Two Cooper-Climax," entered in the Carling 300 at Harewood Acres, May 27-28, 1960. The driver was Bill Bradley (no relation) of Detroit, #72, entered by Hazel Park Welding Company. (They also fielded #73 Cooper Monaco for N.J. Hartman.) The F2 car was "heavily damaged" during this event. Later appeared in the Formula Libre event, Watkins Glen, Oct 9, 1960, #23, retired 75 laps. Do we know anything more about the origin of this car?  

 

Photo here:

 

http://www.racingspo...0-10-09-023.jpg

 

Vince H.

[Rupertlt1]

OK, let us start moving the goalposts re 1958.
Motor Sport, January 1959, cover picture caption:
"F.2 Champion.-Two Formula 2
Coopers taking Thillois Corner on the Reims circuit. This
picture is a reminder that Cooper won last year's F2
Manufacturers' Championship."

The Racing Coopers, Arthur Owen, Page 204:
With Formula 1 premier honours settled, Cooper's still had
a very big say in the Formula II Championship, which up to
now they had looked upon as being in the family, but as always
Lotus was the problem child. With a Formula II race run con-
currently with the Formula I race at Casablanca to end the
Season, Lotus could still win from Brabham and MacLaren (sic),
if Allison won the Casablanca Formula II race and Brabham
drove the Formula I car. Actually, Lewis-Evans headed the
Formula II pool, but he was definitely driving a Vanwall, so
he was out, therefore Charles and John Cooper decided that
Brabham must drive his Formula II car, and they engaged
Jack Fairman to drive the larger engined car in company with
Salvadori. As it turned out, Allison drove the Formula I Lotus
in the race, so Cooper's had won, even before they had started.

Edited by Rupertlt1, 10 October 2013 - 00:42.

[Stephen W]

According to Autosport (9th January 1959 Volume 18 Number 2) there were the following F2 races:

07/04/58 Goodwood Lavant Cup - 1 Jack Brabham, 2 Graham Hill,  3 Cliff Allison

07/04/58 Pau GP - 1 Maurice Trintignant, 2 da Silva Ramos, 3 Cabianca

19/04/58  Aintree "200" (F1 & F2) - 1 Tony Brooks, 2 Stuart Lewis-Evans, 3 Harry Schell

03/05/58 Silverstone International Trophy (F1 & F2) - 1 Cliff Allison, 2 Stuart Lewis-Evans, 3 Bruce McLaren

18/05/58 Brands Hatch - 1 Bruce McLaren, 2 George Wicken, 3 Dennis Taylor

Whit Monday Crystal Palace - 1 Ian Burgess, 2 Tom Bridger, 3 Bruce McLaren

08/06/58 Brands Hatch - 1 Stuart Lewis-Evans, 2 Dennis Taylor, 3 ?

15/06/58 Montlhery Prix de Paris - 1 Henry Taylor, 2 Guelfi, 3 Bruce McLaren

05/07/58 Crystal Palace - 1 Syd Jensen, 2 Ivor Bueb, 3 ?

07/07/58 Rheims Coupe de Vitesse - 1 Jean Behra,, 2 Peter Collins, 3 George Wicken

20/07/58 Caen GP  - 1 Maurice Trintignant, 2 Stuart Lewis-Evans, 3 George Wicken

27/07/58 Clermont-Ferrand - 1 Maurice Trintignant, 2 Ivor Bueb, 3 Stuart Lewis-Evans

27/07/58 Snetterton Vanwall Trophy - 1 Ian Burgess, 2   Bruce McLaren, 3 ?

03/08/58 Nurburgring German GP - 1 Bruce McLaren, 2 Edgar Barth, 3 Ian Burgess

August Bank Holiday Brands Hatch Kent Trophy - 1 Jack Brabham, 2 Stuart Lewis-Evans, 3 Bruce McLaren

30/08/58 Brands Hatch Kentish 100 - 1 Stirling Moss, 2 Jack Brabham, 3 Stuart Lewis-Evans

21/09/58 Avus-Berlin Avusrennen - 1 Masten Gregory, 2 Jim Russell, 3 Jack Brabham

05/10/58 Montlhery Coupe du Salon - 1 Jim Russell, 2 Jack Brabham, 3 Barclay

21/10/58 Casablanca GP - 1 Jack Brabham, 2 Bruce McLaren, 3 La Caze

 

The survey does not state which races constituted the world championship.

[Rupertlt1]

1959:

"The World Championship will again be decided on the result of the Grandes Epreuves and the Championship for manufacturers in Formula 2 will be decided on the results of the Grandes Epreuves which are opened also to cars in Formula 2, provided that there are at least two makes involved and at least three cars start. In addition they will count the races at Syracuse (April 26), Rouen (July 12), and Watkins Glen in the States (Oct 18)."
Points 1st 8pts, 2nd 6, 3rd 4, 4th 3, 5th 2, 6th 0. [It looks like only the highest place car of any manufacturer scores.] 

FORMULA 2 MANUFACTURERS' CUP

                    Cooper  Ferrari  Porsche
Syracuse GP   8            6
Monaco GP*
Dutch GP*
German GP*
Rouen GP       8
British GP        8

Total               24            6

 

N.B. -Watkins Glen, not yet run, but cannot affect position of Cooper in Championship. [I can't find any F2 cars at the Glen at that time.]

*No F2 finishers

See: The Motor, Oct 22, 1958, Page 443; The Motor, Oct 21, 1959, Pages 396-397.

RGDS RLT

 

Syracuse GP:
1. Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 2. Behra (Ferrari) 3. Brabham (Cooper-Climax)
Rouen GP:
1. Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 2. Schell (Cooper-Climax) 3. Gregory (Cooper-Climax)
British GP:
1. Bristow (Cooper-Borgward) 2. H. Taylor (Cooper-Climax) 3. Ashdown (Cooper-Climax)

Edited by Rupertlt1, 10 October 2013 - 20:16.

[raceannouncer2003]

1959 Monaco GP - No F2 finishers

 

Indeed...early on, all three, Allison (Ferrari), Halford (Lotus), and Von Trips (Porsche) collided, as can be seen here:

 

http://www.monaco-gr...agesE/1959.html

 

Vince H.

[D-Type]

1959:

"The World Championship will again be decided on the result of the Grandes Epreuves and the Championship for manufacturers in Formula 2 will be decided on the results of the Grandes Epreuves which are opened also to cars in Formula 2, provided that there are at least two makes involved and at least three cars start. In addition they will count the races at Syracuse (April 26), Rouen (July 12), and Watkins Glen in the States (Oct 18)."
Points 1st 8pts, 2nd 6, 3rd 4, 4th 3, 5th 2, 6th 0. [It looks like only the highest place car of any manufacturer scores.] 

FORMULA 2 MANUFACTURERS' CUP

                    Cooper  Ferrari  Porsche
Syracuse GP   8            6
Monaco GP*
Dutch GP*
German GP*
Rouen GP       8
British GP        8

Total               24            6

 

N.B. -Watkins Glen, not yet run, but cannot affect position of Cooper in Championship. [I can't find any F2 cars at the Glen at that time.]

*No F2 finishers

See: The Motor, Oct 22, 1958, Page 443; The Motor, Oct 21, 1959, Pages 396-397.

RGDS RLT

 

Syracuse GP:
1. Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 2. Behra (Ferrari) 3. Brabham (Cooper-Climax)
Rouen GP:
1. Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 2. Schell (Cooper-Climax) 3. Gregory (Cooper-Climax)
British GP:
1. Bristow (Cooper-Borgward) 2. H. Taylor (Cooper-Climax) 3. Ashdown (Cooper-Climax)

Interesting.  It appears that a Cooper-Borgward and a Cooper-Climax were lumped together unlike the F1 Manufacturers' Championship where different engines were considered to be different makes, e.g. Cooper-Climax and Cooper-Maserati.  Or is this The Motor getting it wrong?  As Cooper were ahead by a country mile it didn't matter anyway.

[Rupertlt1]

The three rounds that counted were all won by Cooper-Borgward, and that is the name on the trophy - see photo above. RGDS RLT

[Tim Murray]

Quite so, but if the Coopers with different engine makes were regarded as different marques (which as Duncan says is how it was done in F1) the final Constructors Championship positions would have been:

 

1. Cooper-Borgward 24 pts

2. Cooper-Climax 16 pts

3. Ferrari 6 pts

[Rupertlt1]

Point taken. But as I said "It looks like only the highest place car of any manufacturer scores." (Or maybe The Motor got it wrong!)

[D-Type]

"Highest place for any manufacturer scores" was the rule for the F1 Manufacturers' Championship and the Sports Car [Manufacturers'] Championship so I would expect the same logic applied here. If there was only one Cooper Borgward that year it makes no difference to the figures or to who won.  Would Ferrari care whether they were 2nd or 3rd? 

[David McKinney]

Interesting.  It appears that a Cooper-Borgward and a Cooper-Climax were lumped together unlike the F1 Manufacturers' Championship where different engines were considered to be different makes, e.g. Cooper-Climax and Cooper-Maserati.  Or is this The Motor getting it wrong?  As Cooper were ahead by a country mile it didn't matter anyway.

Relying strictly on memory, there was a point when the CSI ruled that Cooper-Climax and Cooper-Maserati were separate (F1) constructors. That might not have been until the start of the 1960 season

[Rupertlt1]

David, Can you shed any light on the Cooper F2 driven by William Bradley of Detroit? I have a good picture from Harewood Acres that I can send if that helps? RGDS RLT

[Roger Clark]

Relying strictly on memory, there was a point when the CSI ruled that Cooper-Climax and Cooper-Maserati were separate (F1) constructors. That might not have been until the start of the 1960 season

i thought it was a little later.  A Motoring News table gives separate points in 1964 for BRM and Climax engined Brabhams so it may have happened by then.

[D-Type]

Peter Higham, Bruce Jones, and David Hayhoe & David Holland all list Cooper-Climax, Cooper-Maserati and Cooper-Ferrari (or Cooper-Castelotti) as separate makes in the 1960 F1 Constructors' Championship.  In 1959 the Cooper-Maseratis never finished in the points so the question didn't arise.

Edited by D-Type, 11 October 2013 - 22:40.

[David McKinney]

David, Can you shed any light on the Cooper F2 driven by William Bradley of Detroit? I have a good picture from Harewood Acres that I can send if that helps? RGDS RLT

No, sorry

I did see your earlier post and had a look then

There are a couple of Walker T43s unaccounted for after 1957 or 1958 and one T51, so it's a possibility. There are a lot more cars racing today which claim to be ex-Walker...

The difficulty is that the team recycled chassis numbers, so a T45 with one number was not the T43 of the same number, etc

[Roger Clark]

Peter Higham, Bruce Jones, and David Hayhoe & David Holland all list Cooper-Climax, Cooper-Maserati and Cooper-Ferrari (or Cooper-Castelotti) as separate makes in the 1960 F1 Constructors' Championship.  In 1959 the Cooper-Maseratis never finished in the points so the question didn't arise.

Paul Sheldon and the contemporary Autocourse both give Cabianca's Italian Grand Prix points to Cooper.

With all these points tables it's important to consider whether it was taken from a CSI document or calculated by a journalist/author based on what he believed to be the criteria applying.

[Rupertlt1]

A further look at The Motor, Oct 21, 1959, Pages 396-397, HAIL To The VICTORS: "Only best place by each make in each race counts." RGDS RLT

[Rupertlt1]

1958:
At a meeting at the Royal Automobile Club in late October, 1958, the new Formula 1 regulations for 1961 were announced to modified rapture.
"However, before the storm burst,
we had the pleasant formality of the
presentations. First of all Mr. Wilfrid
Andrews, Chairman of the R.A.C., pre-
sented Mike Hawthorn and Tony
Vandervell with the R.A.C. special
Plaques of Honour, which are given on
very rare occasions. Then M. Perouse,
on behalf of the F.I.A., presented
Hawthorn with the Champion Drivers'
trophy and the new trophies to Mr.
Vandervell (Formula 1 Manufacturers'
Championship) and Mr. Charles Cooper
(Formula 2). In the gathering, adding
to the applause, were Sir William Lyons,
Mr. David Brown, Mr. H.J. Aldington,
the foreign C.S.I. delegates, Lord Howe
(British delegate), Stirling Moss, Colin
Chapman and many British drivers. A
famous occasion."
See: The Motor, Nov 5, 1958, Page 558.

[Rupertlt1]

Borgward - a classy act of the 1950s: [3 Edition]
NICOLSON, Bryan. Evening Post [Wellington, New Zealand] 21 Mar 1997: AP; 6.

"Borgward's most impressive competition performance was a win in the Spa 24-Hour Touring Car race in 1961 but Britain's Stirling Moss also brought the company valuable publicity when his Borgward- powered Formula II Cooper won the Constructors' Cup in 1959."

[Rupertlt1]

https://www.facebook..._count=1&ref=nf

 

Toronto Star, 28 Apr 1960, Page 18:

[Photo Caption]

A WORLD CHAMPION
World champion in class in 1959, Cooper Climax
Formula Two car shown will be driven in
Carling 300 at Harewood, May 28, by Bill Bradley.

Edited by Rupertlt1, 23 November 2013 - 20:10.

[ray b]

Relying strictly on memory, there was a point when the CSI ruled that Cooper-Climax and Cooper-Maserati were separate (F1) constructors. That might not have been until the start of the 1960 season

did the same teams cars get split [separate (F1) constructors] points if different motors were used?

like brm with h-16 and v8 cars running in the same year

or team  lotus with the brm h-16 and cc v-8 ?

or for the v6 v8 and v-12 cars  the red guys ran ?

 

as far as I remember ''A Motoring News table gives separate points in 1964 for BRM and Climax engined Brabhams so it may have happened by then.''

team Brabham only used the CC motors and private teams used the BRM's

[Michael Ferner]

It's not a team championship, but one for "constructors", i.e. make of cars. And a car make is always the combination of chassis and engine manufacturer, if they are not the same. One of the most basic and oldest FIA rules.

[Rupertlt1]

The Autocar, 27 Feb 1959, Page 326:
AS COMPLICATED as ever, the
regulations for the Formula 1 and 2
Manufacturers' Championships, and the
European Rally Championship, have been
issued by the F.I.A. The first two will
be awarded to the most successful manu-
facturer in events based on these lists:
Formula 1-G.P. of the U.S.A.; Monaco
G.P.; Dutch G.P.; Belgian G.P.; French
(European) G.P.; British G.P. German
G.P.; Portuguese G.P.; Italian G.P.;
Moroccan G.P. Formula 2: Monaco
G.P.; Syracuse G.P.; Dutch G.P.; Belgian
G.P.; Rouen G.P.; British G.P.; German
G.P.; Portuguese G.P.; Watkins Glen
G.P.; Moroccan G.P.
It is interesting, by the way, to note
that this year the Monaco, Dutch, Bel-
gian, British, German, Portuguese and
Moroccan G.P.s will include races for
formula 2 cars, and that the Syracuse,
Rouen, and Watkins Glen G.P.s will be
exclusively for formula 2; it could be that
as happened at the end of the last formula,
formula 2 will become the more important.

 

The Autocar, 20 Nov 1959, Pages 666-669:
CLIMAX FOR COOPERS
A year of outstanding achievement. World Championship for Constructors in Both Formula 1 and 2.
"There was no works team for formula 2 events but Rob Walker's Coopers using the Borgward engine, and other privately entered Climax- or Borgward- engined cars, won virtually every major formula 2 race, and Coopers were easily champions in the category also."

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 27 November 2013 - 10:23.

[Rupertlt1]

The Autocar, 20 Feb 1959, Page 290:
ROB WALKER, as well as the British
Racing Partnership, is to use 1.5-litre
Borgward engines in his formula 2
Coopers this season. The engine is
identical with the type used in last year's
Borgward 1,500 RS sports-racing cars,
and was described in The Autocar of
23 January. Briefly, it is a twin-o.h.c.,
light-alloy four-cylinder, with wet
cylinder liners; direct fuel injection is
used, and running at a compression ratio
of 10.2 to 1, the engine is reputed to
develop 160 nett b.h.p. at 7,500 r.p.m.
Borgward themselves have decided to
refrain from racing this season, and
Joakim Bonnier, No. 1 driver for the
team, has signed with Porsche. Besides
supplying engines for the Coopers, how-
ever, they will give technical assistance
and advice to the British stables on
tuning and maintenance; Fritz Juttner,
who has carried out the testing of the first
Cooper-Borgward, and was with the
racing department, will act as liaison
officer. Stirling Moss will drive the Rob
Walker car in several events this season,
and is expected at the factory at the end
of this month.
 
 

[Michael Ferner]

Nice work, Rupert!

[Rupertlt1]

<ref>B.A.R.C. Yearbook 1960, Page 41.</ref>

Formula 2 Constructors' Championship [1959]

 

April 26: Syracuse G.P. (188 miles)

1st Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 99.71 m.p.h.

2nd Behra (Ferrari)

3rd Brabham (Cooper-Climax)

 

July 12: Rouen G.P. (142 miles)

1st Moss (Cooper-Borgward) 96.89 m.p.h.

2nd Schell (Cooper-Climax)

3rd Gregory (Cooper-Climax)

 

July 18: R.A.C. British Grand Prix, Aintree (225 miles)

1st Bristow (Cooper-Borgward) 83.14 m.p.h.

2nd H. Taylor (Cooper-Climax)

3rd Ashdown (Cooper-Climax)

 

(No Formula 2 finishers in Monaco, Dutch or

German Grand Prix.) 

Edited by Rupertlt1, 17 January 2014 - 14:40.

[Rupertlt1]

1958 - Manufacturers' Championship: Cooper Car Co. Ltd.

 

http://archive.motor...results-of-1958

 

The fate of some of the Coopers:

 

http://archive.motor...racing-projects

 

RGDS RLT