22 replies to this topic

[Jhope]

Why is Micheal, Mika and Jaques in the Hall of Fame, but not Gilles? Is it because he has not won a Championship???? I mean com on AtlasF1 staff, think before you make a list of Hall of Fame drivers. I believe active drivers do NOT belong in the Hall of Fame.

If it does come down to Championships, then it is a sad day indeed. Gilles himself said that championships were a bonus. Read this Obituray Nigel Roebuck wrote about Gilles.

...Gilles himself often said that the World Championship was a secondary consideration, a bonus. Driving 'for points' was complete anathema to him, a concept he found impossible to comprehend. What mattered was winning races, an instant, intuitive thing, a passion to beat everyone now, today. Planning a Grand Prix season like a military campaign, calculating gains here, losses there, was not Villeneuve's style.

so people of this board, pressure AtlasF1 to place him where he belongs!

[Jhope]

I know it says in the "fine" print that the Hall is designated for Champions. Rubbish! A hall of fame should be setup for people who have contributed to the sport. Stirling Moss comes to mind, so does Dan Gurney, as well as Ronnie Petterson. Come on people, do something, this place should not be exclusive to a certain few.

[Dennis David]

My suggestion is to do what I did and create your own Hall of Fame!
http://www.ddavid.com/formula1/ten.htm



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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Jhope]

Thanks for the advice, but i am not what we call an HTML wizard. Mind you, I like your page quite a bit. But what do you think of my campaign? Does it stand a chance?

[Falcadore]

I defence of Atlas - you havve to draw the line somewhere. If there isn't a line that can be drawn and point to then there will be never ending arguement over who should and shouldn't be in it.

If we do including non championship winning drivers where do you stop? First lets add Moss, Villeneuve, Gurney, Collins, Peterson, soon it will be what about Brooks? or what about Ickx? or Amon or McLaren or Ginther and so on and so on until we're aguin of drivers of the stature of Patrese and Bandini and...

World Champ is the easiest way of justifiably keeping the list to a manageable number.

[Pete Stanley]

Forgive my ignorance, but ...

Nice picture Jhope. What track and what year is shown? It wouldn't happen to be a certain section of the Dijon track in '81, would it? I would dearly like to see photographs of GV going through that bit of the track that year, if you know what I mean.

[This message has been edited by Pete Stanley (edited 04-21-2000).]

[Jhope]

that picture was taken at Zandvoort in 1979.

[Fast One]

Pardon my saying this, but Gilles Villeneuve is to Grand Prix racing what Steve Dalkowski was to baseball...and Steve Dalkowski isn't in the Hall of Fame. Dalkowski had the fastest, most spectacular fastball in the entire history of baseball. No one else was even close. Ted Williams batted against him in a spring training game and swore he never even SAW the ball. But Dalkowski couldn't get it over the plate often enough to make it to the Bigs, let alone the Hall of Fame. GV may have made the equivalent of the former, but he doesn't belong in the latter. When he "got it over" GV was untouchable; he had speed and spectacle aplenty. But he was frequently mediocre, never really dominated his teammates (he was 2-2 over four full seasons), and destroyed his equipment needlessly far too often to be considered an all time great. Forget WC's, where is he in the FORIX Super Prix? The answer is: not in the top 50. On his good days, he was incredible. The problem is, he didn't have that many good days.

[Ray Bell]

And yet, all around the world there is a reverence for him... "27 - that's Gilles' number"... he is a reference point, too. I saw him win a race, it was a race he barely deserved to win, a race that should have gone to the previous holder of Number 27, who would have been champion that year had his fuel pickup not put him into the pits.
But that's not sufficient to judge the man by. It's his whole career, and as we follow these threads we find more and more that Gille and Jochen were wanting in areas where they ought not have been.
Then, in the grand scheme, there have to be these drivers. Some tacticians, some planners, some smooth and speedy, some over the brink... some winners, some losers.
His great attribute was that he never gave in, that was seen at Zandvoort. Futile, rash, but as scene never to be repeated.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Fast One]

Good point, Ray. I wanted to respond to my debate with Dennis that including him because he was spectacular, or because of the depth of his competitive passion, is valid, especially if sustained excellence isn't the point. There ARE some people who show us just how far a human being is capable of going in a certain direction, sadly sometimes by going farther than is humanly possible, and I believe Gilles is one of those. People like that excite passion in others who wish they had the skill or courage to go there. Dying seems to be a requisite, because it stands as proof positive that the passion/obsession was all, persued without compromise until the human limit was crossed. Isn't this Icarus all over again?

I guess I am just too damned cerebral, because I never admire these sorts of people. To me, the idea is to get as close to the edge as can be done without falling off, which is a very different thing. I think Jaques has more my approach, which I guess is why I think he is considerably greater than his father.

Anyway, I recognise that what you say is true, Ray, and I am aware that I am in the minority on the Villeneuve and Rindt debates. I give them all their passion and allow them their admiration, as long as they allow me to disagree. Unfortunately, BECAUSE they are primarily driven by an emotional response, GV fans frequently shout down all dissention. In the parallel thread on the other side, a new member was basically driven out at spear point for suggesting that GV's reputation may have grown in the retelling. They are a bit too much like those door-to-door evangelists for me.

[Duane]

Why not just change the name to Hall of Champions.

Just a note about the photo. From the angle the car looks to be a T5 (1980), with that fin-like structure above the engine which the T4 (1979) never had. If you look closely below the rear wing you can see the bodywork blending upwards to form the fin.

[Dennis David]

I can imagine what this thread would look like in the Reader's section.

My criteria is only in partly based on statistics. I also give give great weight to style points, that's why I was so hesitant to add Piquet and even Fittipaldi to my HOF yet have no qualms whatsoever with Villeneuve and Rindt.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Jhope]

Dennis: I set this topic off in the "other" section, and the **** flew through the fan! Everyone was talking about "if Gilles is in, so and so should too..." There was also a little tension build up between posters over there. I thought I would set one up here, since most people here a MATURE, and can have discussion with a sensible tone to our writting.

[Eric McLoughlin]

When discussing the merits of drivers, its often worthwhile thinking back to what your opinion of them was when they were still racing - especially if you were lucky enough to see them race. Too often history envelopes the individual in a haze of mythology. I suppose I saw virtually all of GV's races (BBC started covering all the F1 races in 1978) and my memory is one of total frustration. He would drive like a demon, spin off, wreck the car trying to get it back to the pits and basically throw races away. Often his recklesness would take other drivers out of the race too.
For different reasons, I also found it very hard to warm to Senna's obvious talents as the hard streak to his nature showed almost no consideration to other drivers at all.

[Fast One]

Excellent point Eric. I've mentioned that as regards Rindt as well. He was not all that highly thought of until after his death. In the Readers Forum, there is one poster in particular who states to everyone that fails to genuflect before the memory of GV, that they obviously never saw him race. This particular poster first saw him in '82. I saw him throughout wreck cars and break cars, often without going all that fast to do it. I was never captivated by his "magic show", and I think alot of those who are bought tickets after his death. All I was ever sure of with him, as with Rindt, was that I would sooner or later see him die in a racing car. Like Rindt, he had talent. Like Rindt, he never really got control of the talent he had. To be fair to Jochen, he was showing signs of becomming a more complete driver that last year. I never felt Gilles really improved. He was the same wild man the day he died that he was when he started.

[Dennis David]

You know that works both ways. I used to hate Stewart. He would just run away from the other drivers but now looking back I am forced to admit that he was just better.

While I'm at it I was a big Graham Hill fan and I expected him to continue winning in 1963 but this Clark fellow kept coming in first and soon I began to fall in love with Lotus, mind you I was still a Hill fan! So 1967 my dream came true and they would be teammates at Lotus. The first super team since Moss and Fangio. We all know what happened.

I did fall in love with GV while he was still alive call it irrational, whatever I respect your opinions. The funny thing is that DSJ thought highly of him but not Rindt.

Since I've been on this board I have had to re-think my opinion of Surtees, I only remembered the whiner who showed up to drive at Chaparral and they couldn't wait to get rid of him after a few races. Granted the car was **** but he didn't put in an effort.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[This message has been edited by Dennis David (edited 04-26-2000).]

[Fast One]

Dennis--

There was a bit more to the story than Jim Hall's version. I'll try to dig up FJ's side of it for you. On paper, that was a marriage that should have worked, but they came together at the wrong time. That car was the worst piece of **** Jim Hall ever made (maybe the only piece of ****). Surtees was basically a conservative driver, who trusted his ability to win. he never felt he needed a better car, just an equal one. That car provided no vision and absurd handling, and Surtees never trusted it. There's more, but I'll have to dig it up. Too bad, because I remember being pretty excited about the potential of that union. Pity it did failed. It was neither Surtees' nor Hall's brightest hour.

[Dennis David]

I don't disagree.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Jhope]

Well, I guess this is a lost cause!

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I used to think that the day would never come
That delight would depend on the morning sun
My morning sun is the drug that bring me near
to the childhood I lost replaced by fear

New Order - True Faith

[Don Capps]

Well, at great fear for my life and limb, as the Moderator of this noble gathering and Forum for the truly dedicated, Your Scribe is seriously considering the notion of an Atlas Nostalgia Forum Pantheon of Racers. The criteria is best kept simple:

(1) Racers who were racers and were successful and/or caught and fired our imagination. (Moderator's note: Personally, I wouldn't limit it to just GP/F1, but to open-wheeled formulae achievement. I only make this concession to keep the field to a manageable size. I personally admire and greatly respect many, many sports & "touring" or "stock" car drivers. Just a rationale to make a difficult task less impossible.)

(2) Only those who have been retired from active driving in the formulae being considered as the source for these heroes for a minimum period of either 5, 10, or 15 years -- with my personal nod to the latter. This requirement can be waived due to a death as a result of a racing accident. I suggest that the formulae be the GP, F1, Voiturette, AAA Contest Board (or similar)/ USAC/ CART/ IRL/ Tasman/ F5000 (UK/Euro/SA/Antipodean & FA or F Continental in US/ CDN) or similar formulae.

(3) That there be no rank ordering of Heroes within the Pantheon. Either they make the cut or they don't.

(4) That it be a done in such a way as the deck doesn't get stacked by profilic posters. To this end I suggest that when I post the topic, you get ONE shot at posting your nominations. Period. No alibis, first round downrange counts.

(5) That nominations are limited to a number between 5 and 10 per participant. I recommend start with 10 this initial round and add five each subsequent year. And there be a clearly defined period during which the votes may be cast.

(6) Most importantly, someone besides Your Scribe will do the grunt work of the tallies with Your Scribe only validating the results. The results to be posted, annually, in the RVM column.

Discussion, of a calm, mature mature welcomed. Then it is vox populi.

Sound reasonable?

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[This message has been edited by Don Capps (edited 04-28-2000).]

[Dennis David]

I think we should add one more stipulation similiar to creating a Saint. Something that the driver did or a style that was displayed that was beyond the posibilities of mear mortals. A miracle!

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Ray Bell]

I don't really know what you have in mind, but let it roll and we'll work it out... I'd plump for ten years, and five years deceased if really necessary. Seppi counts on all criteria... even won a race or two!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Brent]

As much as i love his son..you know.... Gilles did fark all compared to what his son has...

I have a very rare tape of the crash where this guy got smashed...it's not cool.

Extemely bad infact