69 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

Putting on your objective cap, which movie did you think was better?

I haven't seen "Le Mans" in a long time so I can't be an accurate judge but I am inclined to say "Grand Prix" from my memory. "Grand Prix" is hard to top from a motorsport's fan point of view.

[Keir]

This is really quite a tough one!!!
It depends on what you are looking for.
As far as pure racing is concerned, "LeMans" has more pure racing footage. But head to head, the quality of the racing footage is equal.
If you are looking for a story, then "Grand Prix" wins out easily.
For me, if I'm in the mood for a racing movie, I choose "LeMans". If I'm in the mood for a movie about racing drivers, I choose "Grand Prix".
I really haven't helped, have I???
Being the racing fanatic that I am, I try to watch each movie a few times a year, and unlike Sarti, I never get tired of the racing
movies!!!!!!!!

So, Regis, my final answer is............

BOTH!!!!!!!!!

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

Possibly because of the variety of circuits, the wet race at Spa, the memory of the vision in Cinerama, the multiples of multiples of exhaust pipes at Monaco - Got to say Grand Prix!
Long live James Garner...
(saw him the other night in a rerun of 77 Sunset Strip - as James Garner having a sideline chat with Stu Bailey, who called him James and referred to him as 'the maverick' - loved Maverick when it was him in it, didn't like Bart. Should I go on?)

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Jonathan]

I very much prefere Le Mans. I feel this is an accurate representation of what racing is all about. While I like Grand Prix, I found the story lines a little too slow, tedious, and perhaps somewhat unrealistic as well...

[Ray Bell]

So why isn't 'Un Homme et Une Femme' a part of this question. Undeniably better than both - I saw the review in Road & Track and went to see it...

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[BRG]

For me, Le Mans is the better because it was Steve McQueen's pet project and as we all know, he was a racer and an enthusiast. I was a regular Le Mans visitor at that time and most of the film rang pretty true - except for those awful PA announcements "Attention, there has been an accident...".

Grand Prix was good in that it was filmed in and around a real GP season, but I feel it was a show business product made by film makers rather than enthusiasts. But
I would agree that the plot of Grand Prix was a bit better, probably for that reason.

I am glad that Stallone has lost interest in making a F1 film (for whatever reason) - I was dreading what sort of monstrosity of product placement and commercial avarice the combination of Hollywood and Bernie Ecclestone would produce...



------------------
BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Don Capps]

I think that 'Un Homme et Une Femme' followed by 'Le Mans' and 'Grand Prix' would be my choices. I still love the scenes where the Ford France team are testing at the Autodrome de Linas-Montlhery with the Brabham, the Mustang, and the GT40 and "200 km/h" is thumping in the background...

And it was a good, sly twist about the results of the Monte Carlo Rallye....

------------------
Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Nomad]

I couldn't agree more with BRG about the relief felt when it was announced that Sly wouldn't be doing his film.
I like climbing and Cliffhanger was so outrageously unrealistic.
If he had done a similar hachet job on F1 I would have been inclined to visit the US just to wring his steriod filled neck

Back to topic: I vote Grand Prix

[Keir]

Nomad,
After you rang Sly's neck, would you nibble on mine???

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Nomad]

Keir
I just read what you said about Prost,
you're lucky I am still typing to you!

[404KF2]

Ray,

"Un Homme et Une Femme"?????

Gadzooks, that was an awful pic. The MC-Rallye footage was OK, though a bit hard to see at night, and a Ford Mustang challenging REAL cars - NOT! The only thing worse than the movie was the song:

"Na na na na na
Na na na na na
Na-na-na
Na na na na na
Na na na na na... ad infinitum..."

No wait, I'm wrong - "Un Homme et Une Femme - Vingt Ans Déjà (1986)" was even worse!! Do yourself a favour - this is not a movie for watching, it is a movie for laying down and avoiding!

I've seen both Le Mans and Grand Prix a few times. The Le Mans racing scenes seem more authentic, since McQueen actually was driving the camera car ( Porsche 908 Spyder if memory serves) in the race. The 917 crash scene with the driver struggling to escape the wreck before it blows is mindblowing. As are the inimitable sounds of a Porsche aircooled flat-12 on full howl. The Grand Prix racing scenes, though simulations, ARE very good. Just not real.

So I'd rate Le Mans first for racing, and Grand Prix first for story (although both stories are a bit over the top).

Betcha can't get the song from "A Man and a Woman" out of your head now!

[Falcadore]

Anorak time!

The 908 was not driven by McQueen, the films insurers wouldn't let him. It was driven by Jonathan Williams and (I've forgotten dammit - insert name here). McQueen did own the car personally, and not the film or studio. In the race start helicopter shot you can see the black car that leaps away from it's grid slot, that's the specially rebuilt 908, the only shot of it (as opposed to from it) in the film. Williams gets a lightning start in the car, almost overhauling one of the factory Ferrari 312P's (which got an equally poor start) on the way to Dunlop.

Personally Le Mans is better because it does what I've always wanted to do, explain endurance racing to the layman, much more eloquantly than I could.

[Ray Bell]

...and .. in .. the silence of the night, of the lonely night ....

What about that charming scene where the kids are practising their English in the restaurant - in an otherwise all-French film?

This might be why you have 404s, I have 504s - no that's not right, we discussed that, swap?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 03-17-2000).]

[404KF2]

Ray,

"cette ombre de nous,..."

Eww, that music was bad. Me needed toothpicks to keep me eyes open in the "love" scenes. Boring.

If you liked Anouk Aimée et. al. in the original, don't miss the sequel I mentioned above. I hated it, but it did have one or two decent car chase scenes. And the Mustang the guy has is the wrong year (a 1967 or 68 model, not a 65-66 as in the original film).

I lived in France for a while when I was a little kid, not to mention Québec, so that's where my (and my Dad's) francophile tendency comes from, not this dismal film!

[Ray Bell]

We used to have a Cheezels ad on TV built around that tune.....
Better go for a quick blast up a dirt road to wipe it all from your mind...

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[luisfelipetrigo]

404KF2:

The song is more like
na ... na ... na ... na na na na na
na na na na na
na na na na na
na ... na ... na ... na na na na na
na na na na na
na na na na na
na ... na ra

But you are right ... can not take it out of my mind !!!

-
In my opinion I would rate them as Don Capps:

+++ Un homme et un femme - Good story, gorgeous black and white, good (but few) racing scenes.
Favorite line: "if you take the curve at 239kph you loose the race, if you take it at 241kph you loose the car"

++ Le Mans: Great racing, great cars (ferrari and porsche), Steve McQueen.
Favorite line: I do not recall any words but at the end Steve McQueen makes a gesture to his opponenet to cheer him up; neither one won - true sportsmanship!!!

+ Grand Prix: Great filming techniques - when they break the screen in 2-4-8-16...
Too many 'favorite lines' but here is one: "When I see something terrible I put my feet down, hard, because I know everyone is lifting his" / "what a terrible way to win" / "there is no terrible way to win ... there is only winning!"



------------------
Saludos
Luis Felipe


[This message has been edited by luisfelipetrigo (edited 03-14-2000).]

[Eagle104]

As fine a film LeMans is, I have to go with Grand Prix.
For me it was the perfect movie at the perfect time. All that mattered to me then (and now) was following the career of Dan Gurney. But, growing up in a very small town in Indiana meant that F1 results and news came in a somewhat less than timely fashion. By the time my Car & Driver would arrive there may have been another couple of races contested. And another thing that may be hard to imagine now was the fact that every picture was in black&white! Then along comes Grand Prix..in color!! All the fabulous tracks that were nothing more than diagrams til then...all my racing heroes...they were all there. Since I lived 70mi away from the nearest cinerama, in Indy, I never got to see it in that format. But it didn't matter; at least I saw it. Then I saw it again. And again, and.......

Here's a trivia question: whose feet were used for the shots of the pedals in the movie. (hint: 2 different American drivers)

[Ray Bell]

Eagle 104 -
Has nobody told you that you must, before you post more than ten times, post in the 'introductions' and 'how old are you' threads. I'm interested in finding out what part of Indiana you're from.
Nice name, reminds me of the best looking F1 car ever... And a driver almost as worthwhile following as Fearless John!

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[f li]

Eagle,

Don't sweat the intro! - We're just as pleased to know you from what you think (as opposed to what you think of yourself!).

Here's to many pleasant visits!

[Eagle104]

I'll be making out my intro in a little while. But I must tell you that it's almost impossible to post anything because I use Webtv and it does a weird thing of sending me to a blank page whenever I try to reply. I have found a way of cheating this by typing an email and copying it, then I go to the reply page where I *maybe* have all of 2sec to lay it in and then get to the submit button before I'm sent off again. My Grand Prix post, alone, took about 10min to sucessfully submit.
I'm obviously 'getting what I pay for' with this cheap system(webtv). VERY annoying! But I'll try.

And please forgive me for not first saying "thank you" to Ray Bell and f for the "welome".

[This message has been edited by Eagle104 (edited 03-17-2000).]

[Fast One]

For me, the beginning of Grand Prix, from the moment those pipes start belching exhaust, through the end of the Monaco racing scenes are some of the most thrilling moments in movie history. Anyone whose pulse doesn't seriously quicken when those drivers start pulling their goggles on is never going to understand our passion for motor racing. Sadly, that includes just about everyone I know. Ditto for the Spa sequences in the rain. Yeah, the dialogue is dumb at times, but Sarti is a great character, and the real racing sceenes were wonderfully shot. Grand Prix is still my favorite racing movie.

[Ray Bell]

That's why I mentioned them earlier. The pity of it, and I don't know if you felt this at the time, was that they were from a little 2-litre engine when the new formula was for 3-litre. Only an 8 when it could have been one of the 12s.
But with them wrapped around your head in Cinerama (I sat right down the front on the second visit...) it made the right impressions.

How come nobody mentioned 'Viva Los Vegas' - there was some stark realism in the pit of your stomach in the racing scenes from that one! ... and the 'circuit' had some good features!

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 03-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Dave Ware]

Herbert Linge co-drove the camera car. They came home eighth. Here is Johnathan Williams' home page:
http://www.autosportsltd.com/jw.html

The car was prepped free of charge by the Porsche factory since a 917 was to win the race in the movie.

I have not seen "Un Homme et une Femme" but it would be worth renting, based on the comments so far.

>>Favorite line: I do not recall any words but at the end Steve McQueen makes a gesture to his opponenet to cheer him up; neither one won - true sportsmanship!!!
http://www.autosport.../two-finger.jpg

Damn, I thought I could paste the photo itself. But it's there. It's my understanding that that gesture is the European version of America's extended middle finger.

Regarding the movies, for my two cents worth, it's a matter of which one is the "least bad." Both are great for a racing enthusisast...especially since in those days, and even until recently, there wasn't much racing footage available. And almost any racing movie is better than no racing movie. But as a fictional work, neither was terribly good. I pick "Grand Prix" as being less bad. There is humor and you can laugh at the situations and characters. Everything is so heavy handed in "Le Mans." Everyone was so damn serious and dramatic. I'll take Nino Barlini any day!

I will confess that I haven't seen "Le Mans" lately. It bears another watch.

Don't think I've posted ten times yet so I should be safe...

You really wanna talk about Elvis' racing movies? There were three: "Speedway", "Spinout", and "Viva Las Vegas." In "Speedway" he was, you guessed it, a stock car driver and he won the big race and got the girl. Sang a lot of songs in between. In "Spinout" he raced a Cobra which he towed with a Duesenberg. Won the big race and since he was a confirmed bachelor, passed on the three willing girls. Sang a lot of songs in between. "Viva Las Vegas" is not, I believe, on video tape yet, dammit it, so I haven't seen it in the last couple of decades. I suspect that he won the big race, got the girl, etc., etc.

Michael Keyser's home page is:
http://www.autosportsltd.com/

Worth checking out if you haven't already. Lots of great pics from '70 - '72 era. A great account by Tony Adamowitz of his first Le Mans in '70...much good stuff along those lines. He and Williams have also co-authored a book on the making of "Le Mans." Oh, and get the video of Keyser's documentary "The Speed Merchants". Excellent footage; narrated by Mario, Elford, Redman, and has interviews w/ Marko and Ickx. Not a fictional film but the best of the few films I've ever seen.

Dave

Is this post ever going to end??? From this site you can download short video clips, some current stuff and some clips from the movie "Grand Prix" - Spa, Zandvroot, Brands.
http://f1movies.cjb.net/

Work. I suppose I should get back to work now.

[cjs f1]

Le Mans is the better of the two.
It concentrated more fully on the race.

[Dennis David]

Eagle, I tried WebTV in a bar once and either it's a mess or maybe I just need to drink more the next time I use it. What it did to my site was a joke for anyone wishing to view it.

------------------
Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[karlcars]

A couple of sidebars:

I watched "Grand Prix" in New York with photographer friend Rudy Mailander when it was first shown. Knowing all the drivers in the film -- and observing the antics of journalist friend Bernard Cahier, who had a lot to do with helping Frankenheimer stage it -- we were fairly excruciated at the time. But it has worn well. Distance in time terms lends enchantment. More is true about it than not concerning racing as it was then. By the way the great Saul Bass did the montages of multi-screen effects.

'Le Mans' might well have been better from the story standpoint if Ken Purdy had been allowed to carry on with the script. Ken did a lot of work on the film but was allowed to have no impact on the final product. He returned from France utterly frustrated. McQueen didn't want any more story than the film actually contained.

As for 'A Man and a Woman', I would only say that the actual racing bits were sensational, together with the accompanying music. When I presented the scale model of the car that was to become the C100 to the Ford of Europe board in 1981, a colleague and I lifted the cover from it to the strains of the theme from the Montlhery section of the film. That was my idea, and it worked.

Now...how come no one has mentioned 'The Racers'? OK, some scenes are laughably speeded up, but the Mille Miglia shots? Lee J. Cobb as team manager? Gilbert Roland, Cesar Romero and Kirk Douglas driving Buranos? Bella Darvi and her "independent front suspension"? The starting grid at the 'Ring in 1954? The start at Spa of the actual race? Some pretty good stuff!

Keep the pedal to the metal!

------------------
Karl Ludvigsen

[Ray Bell]

What did you think of the 20 years later version, Karl?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[buddyt]

Grand Prix also had a sound track that was released on a 33 LP album. When you are walking in the old book store ask if they have albums. There were several types of sound effect records some had race engines, drag boats and stockers.

------------------
"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[CVAndrw]

Originally posted by Eagle104:
Here's a trivia question: whose feet were used for the shots of the pedals in the movie. (hint: 2 different American drivers)

According to Frankenheimer, that would have been Phil Hill and Richie Ginther, while they were simultaneously recording the gearchange soundtrack by duplicating the sequences for different circuits (from memory!), while driving up and down Riverside's main straight.

If you want another one:

Which rather well-known driver, upon viewing the opening Monaco sequence in Cinerama, was quoted as saying "At times it makes me sick to my stomach!"?

[Keir]

I have both the "Grand Prix" and "LeMans"
albums. And no, you won't be seeing them on ebay. The "Grand Prix" album is in booklet form - it's a real keeper.

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Eagle104]

Dennis:

Concerning viewing your site via WebTv...I took a quick look while at work on a *real* computer, and, happily, I can tell you that I didn't see anything that I may have been missing with webtv. Naturally, the clarity was much better only because of the different 'monitors'. Now, what I have is called WebTV-Plus(whatever that means), and maybe that has something to do with it. Dunno. But, I'm able to successfully navigate your site. And again say 'thank you' for it.

Eagle104

[Falcadore]

Can I nominate a couple of short films to this thread?

The Peugeot sponsored film "Climb Dance" and Claude LeLouch's "Rendezvous" how do people rate the footage in those films?

[Ray Bell]

Was not the Pikes Peak film mentioned earlier, or am I mistaken and that was another thread?
Anyway, apart from the pure spectacle of it, it's Peugeot - so what can be wrong?
Except that I don't have a copy - any help there, Mark?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

I have a copy of both films, although my copy of "Climb Dance" is currently doing the rounds of Motorsport News office in Melbourne. Let you know when it arrives back in the mail.

[buddyt]

Let me throw this one out on the table, Paul Newman made a racing movie titled "Winning"' The story line followed a Indy car driver and his wife and the problems they had. Said driver finds wife in bed with another driver.(Couldn't happen in real life);) The racing cars were manly early rear engine Indy cars. This movie was to spark Newman's interest in racing and his start to driving.

------------------
"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Eagle104]

Yeah, I enjoyed "Winning"(not least
of which because the featured cars
were Eagles!).

The odd thing about that movies was
that while the Indy portion was based
on the 1968 race, which Bobby Unser
won in his Rislone-Eagle/Offy, and
most scenes were from that race, the
car used for the film was actually
the earlier model '66 Eagle! It had a
more pronounced "beak" nose than the
'68 winner which had a much flatter
nose(w/beak) due to the fact that the
shocks were outboard, thus, the lower
profile (Karl, keep me honest here,
ok?).

And, though I'd have to check, I
*think* the engine in the "movie" car
was a Ford!..not Offy!!

Ah, the magic of Hollywood!

Eagle104

[Kärjistäjä]

Has anyone of you seen the animation 'Il Tempo Gigante'?

[CVAndrw]

Originally posted by CVAndrw:
Which rather well-known driver, upon viewing the opening Monaco sequence in Cinerama, was quoted as saying "At times it makes me sick to my stomach!"?

Give up? Jochen Rindt!

[Ray Bell]

Must have been because he was a chain smoker. This was one of the things that turned Jenks off him, I think (remember the bet and the beard?).

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[f li]

In the Paddock Club, the Swerve mentioned a video that I had only heard rumors of "Nine Days of Summer". I believe that it was paid for by Shell and covered the 1967 season from the Lotus "eyes" - the 49, the DFV, Jim Clark, Colin Chapman and Graham Hill. - And he's unhappily looking for "Gran Prix".

He's staring at an uncut diamond but he really wants that piece of polished glass!

[Eric McLoughlin]

The film's called "Nine Days in Summer". It was made by Ford to capitalise on the introduction of the new Ford Cosworth DFV engine. Luckily for them, it won a few races in its first year so the film is very upbeat. Some of the scenes set at Lotus' headquarters are very stilted and were obviously staged for the cameras. However, the racing footage is fantastic and was probably the inspiration for the PC game, "Grand Prix Legends" which is, of course, set in the 1967 season too.

[Huw Jenjin]

The sound track of the 917 when actually in a cinema was one of my all time memorable experiences, and the sound track alone makes that film the No1.
The accidents were also pretty realistic!
F1 was also brilliant but the use of less than brilliant replicas detracts. The script was written by the same guy that did a book on Jim Clark, and a Kiwi at that. So it must be good!
Although not strictly a racing film, I can watch it any number of times. heres a Trivia question. Which circuit was the Minis onto the Transporter manouvre practiced on in the film?

[Keith Sawatsky]

LeMans was by far a better movie than Gran Prix could ever aspire to be. The "off track" plot in Gran Prix and the terrible acting(Rockford...err, I mean James Garner among others....ugh)ruined what could have been an excellent racing movie.

Falcadore....

I just came from a friend's house where we finished watching "Rendevous" again on a big screen 52" TV....awesome !!!



[This message has been edited by Keith Sawatsky (edited 04-23-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

I finally broke down and bought the Le Mans movie. It was better than I remembered but I still don't think it was better than Grand Prix.

Question: The Le Mans movie contained actual race footage from what Le Mans race. Was it 1969, 1970 or 1971? I think it was 1970 but I am not sure.

[Keir]

It was '70.

And still a great racing film!!!!

------------------
"I Was Born Ready"

[Ray Bell]

Silverstone?

------------------
Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Falcadore]

Keith,
You gots to love that piece of footage. Airborn over backstreet cobbelstone while the roar of the V12 crashes of the neighbouring buildings...

Joe,
1970. Strangely the actual race winner (posted for sale recently elsewhere within this BB - some gorgeous pics) appears very rarely in the film. This is probably because the had very limited number of cars for the post race stunt filming sequences. IIRC the had access to four Ferrari 512's the four factory cars, not the three independant cars, 5 Porsche 917's, the three Gulf factory cars, one of the Porsche Austria cars (the team mate of the race winner, the mostly white car, and another yellow car), a sparingly used yellow Lola T70 which was disquised as a 917 for Delaney's shunt so as to be written off (imagine the cost on writing off an actual 917!) one of the Alfa Romeos, the red/yellow car, which can be easily confuesed for the Ferrari's despite being open-topped compared to the enclosed Ferraris. And the blow with yellow distinguising stripe Matra (as opposed to its white and orange striped team mates).

Some notable absentees from the race ffotage are the actual race winning Porsche Austria car which is seen fleetingly at the start and again in the panning sequence at the end of the musical sequence of the early stages of the race, and Black/green psychedelic Porsche 917, the non factory 512 Ferraris. A lot of Alfa Romeos, Lola T70s, Matras, Porsche 911s and the occasional hideous sounding Corvette, and what looks like a Truimph Stag get a fair chunk of air time. The other notable absentee is of course the black hideously mishapen Porshce 908 camera car, which despite stopping every 15 minutes for more film, still finished well up the top ten - 8th I think.

Huw, I assume you're talking about "The Italian Job"

[This message has been edited by Falcadore (edited 04-25-2000).]

[Dave Ware]

"Nine days of summer" was on Speedvision not too long ago and will probably be re-aired again before too long.

If "The Swerve" really wants to see it that badly I'll send him my copy, for a price...maybe a day's worth of race driving lessons.

Dave

[Michael M]

The footage from the actual 1970 race was spliced into the specially shot footage, and the result is pretty seamless. There are, however, a couple of bloopers, including a great one, where a yellow Corvette and a green Lola, if I remember rightly, in consecutive shots, are carrying the same race number...

As far I remember the unfortunate Lola T70 Mk3GT they used for the Ferrari jump crash, fitted with the glassfibre external panels from a 512M. If you look carefully, you can see the gaffer tape holding them down! The 917 for the Delaney crash I always thought was a genuine one, stunt driven by David Piper, who lost a leg in this accident. Don't believe the poor T70 was able to be used for 2 crashes like this, so either they used 2 Lolas, or a genuine 917. Don't forget, Porsche had built 25 cars to get it homologated, so some were still standing around waiting for serious buyers. I also heard that Porsche had given a lot of assistence to McQueen, simply because the movie ended with a victory for Porsche, so it may well be that they get this 917 as a bargain.

And why did not # 23 Salzburg Porsche win in the movie? The limited number of cars could not be a reason, because one gallon of paint would do a wonderful job. But don't forget, it was an American movie, so USA must win! Delaney was American, and as neither Porsche nor Ferrari can be claimed as "Made in USA" at least the sponsor must be polically correct. There are even rumours that Gulf Oil sponsored the movie too ...

[Dave Ware]

>>I also heard that Porsche had given a lot of assistence to McQueen, simply because the movie ended with a victory for Porsche, so it may well be that they get this 917 as a bargain.

I know that the factory preppred the camera car for free. Don't know if they did anything else.

D.