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The Goodwood chicane


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#1 Barry Boor

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 19:32

Having searched for threads with CHICANE in the title, I find none of them are connected with the one at Goodwood.

So, simple question; was the chicane there from the very beginning (I suspect the answer is no) and if not, when was it installed?

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#2 taylov

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 19:41

Having searched for threads with CHICANE in the title, I find none of them are connected with the one at Goodwood.

So, simple question; was the chicane there from the very beginning (I suspect the answer is no) and if not, when was it installed?



First major International meeting with the "Paddock chicane" was the April 1952 event. There may have been an earlier "clubbie".

The lap record on the "old" track was 97 mph to Farina in an Alfa Romeo 158/9 in September 1951. The new record was set by Gonzalez in the Thinwall Ferrari at 90 mph.

Tony

Edited by taylov, 02 June 2010 - 19:45.


#3 berkeleybill

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 20:07

Barry, I seem to remember when growing up as a child In the early "sixties" Scalextric did a "Goodwood" chicane as one of their accessories ! Probably still got It up In the attic ! Bill.

#4 paulhooft

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 20:24

Barry, I seem to remember when growing up as a child In the early "sixties" Scalextric did a "Goodwood" chicane as one of their accessories ! Probably still got It up In the attic ! Bill.


YES!!
I have one!! :rotfl:

Paul

#5 MCS

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 20:33

Barry, I seem to remember when growing up as a child In the early "sixties" Scalextric did a "Goodwood" chicane as one of their accessories ! Probably still got It up In the attic ! Bill.


Except it didn't have the same layout as the Goodwood chicane...!


#6 Barry Boor

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 20:46

You are both sitting on quite a few ££££s there, gents. They go for good prices on E**y.

Taylov's answer confirmed what I thought; thank you.

#7 Barry Boor

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 16:07

As I am approaching the 1960 Glover Trophy, I decided to make a chicane wall at Goodwood.  Mine won't be brick.....  polystyrene is my material of choice.

 

This is merely an observation but I was surprised upon Googling pictures of said brick wall, that they varied the colour of it - or at least, it was dark and white and they put the colours in different orders at different times.

 

I've seen two dark horizontal stripes with white in between (as it was when Behra whacked it) and two white stripes with dark in between.  I wonder if there were ever any other combinations?



#8 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 25 September 2013 - 16:31

The BARC Club meeting in March 1952 used the chicane for the first time.

#9 Stephen W

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 08:16

Don't forget the flowers on the top of the wall!



#10 Barry Boor

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:13

Bonnier leads Ireland and Hill through the chicane:

 

chicane.jpg

 

But Hill went on to win the Glover Trophy.

 

:rolleyes:



#11 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 15:03

Barry, the tarmac is breaking up badly on the inside of the right - time for a new paving job?



#12 thatguy0101

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 18:45

Bonnier leads Ireland and Hill through the chicane:

 

chicane.jpg

 

But Hill went on to win the Glover Trophy.

 

:rolleyes:

 

 

Congratulations on locating a photo of the first use of expanded polystyrene as circuit furniture.  Perhaps alert DCN?



#13 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 16:21

After today's Glover Trophy, not for the first time this weekend (and in the past), I find myself wondering whether the Goodwood chicane - notwithstanding the 'authenticity argument' - should be redesigned.

 

Modern safety rules and the use of safety cars mean that incidents which would have been dealt with in period under strictly-enforced local yellow flags now mean that some races are effectively ruined - although credit is due to the stewards for resetting the clock at the end of the Glover, giving us seven more minutes of racing instead of one lap.

 

The design of it is something of a blunt instrument and I'm sure it can't be beyond the wit of man to design something slightly longer and less severe which would not materially affect lap speeds or safety while avoiding the sort of track-blocking incidents which we have seen in recent years. Part of the problem is of course that it's nowhere near as solid as it was when first built: I'm not saying people deliberately hit it, but the fact that it's not going to write your car - or you - off if you hit it must be a factor in drivers not treating it with the utmost respect.

 

Replacing all those bloody plant pots every time someone hits it is a significant time-waster too! :lol:



#14 Stephen W

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 09:46

After today's Glover Trophy, not for the first time this weekend (and in the past), I find myself wondering whether the Goodwood chicane - notwithstanding the 'authenticity argument' - should be redesigned.

 

Modern safety rules and the use of safety cars mean that incidents which would have been dealt with in period under strictly-enforced local yellow flags now mean that some races are effectively ruined - although credit is due to the stewards for resetting the clock at the end of the Glover, giving us seven more minutes of racing instead of one lap.

 

The design of it is something of a blunt instrument and I'm sure it can't be beyond the wit of man to design something slightly longer and less severe which would not materially affect lap speeds or safety while avoiding the sort of track-blocking incidents which we have seen in recent years. Part of the problem is of course that it's nowhere near as solid as it was when first built: I'm not saying people deliberately hit it, but the fact that it's not going to write your car - or you - off if you hit it must be a factor in drivers not treating it with the utmost respect.

 

Replacing all those bloody plant pots every time someone hits it is a significant time-waster too! :lol:

 

Just a few thoughts:

 

1) A re-design would change the track layout and negate all the current records.

2) Making it less of a challenge isn't really what people want.

3) Maybe providing a safer and more easily accessed bypass would be a solution. Plus you could impose a penalty for taking the bypass e.g. 5 seconds added to your race time. Plus for persistent offenders exclusion.

4) I have to agree that the "bloody plant pots" were a nuisance and could easily be replaced with fake plastic ones. These could be fixed to the various elements of the chicane so they would be a structural part of the rebuild.

 

:wave:



#15 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:57

1) True, but virtually every circuit evolves over time, usually in response to rule changes and safety concerns -  the latter being the reason the chicane was inserted in the first place. Every track variation means you have to tear up the lap record book and start again: how many times have they had to do that at Brands or Silverstone? Pre-war, Donington used three different layouts in six years - and there are two sets of records for the second one, due to it being re-measured. Goodwood was almost unique in only having two layouts in two decades.

 

I appreciate that Goodwood wishes to preserve the atmosphere of 1960s racing - hence my comment about the 'authenticity argument' - but what they are serving up is 1960s racing to 2014 rules. The past is indeed another country where they do things differently and I'm not for one moment suggesting that they should revert to 1960s rules - not that they'd be allowed to anyway. Safety cars without doubt have their place, but it would be interesting to know how often an accident at the chicane triggers one in comparison to incidents around the rest of the circuit. My impression is that the chicane accounts for at least half.

 

2) Not 'less of a challenge'. Just a different one - less severe, but longer, still designed to slow the cars after Woodcote but maintaining the same lap speeds. The current chicane is effectively a 90-degree right leading directly into a 70 to 120 degree left, depending on how well you exit the second bit. If you exit at 120 degrees, you're on the grass! The incident with the Bizzarini during the TT Celebration could have been much worse if the following Jags, Astons and Corvette hadn't all managed pretty phenomenal avoidances in a very tight space.

 

3) I'm not sure there's enough room to do that?



#16 zakeriath

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:58

I was the post chief on the chicane this weekend and had to deal with all the incidents that happened over the weekend.

 

WRT to the Glover race incident, where the whole chicane was almost totally destroyed, I would like to suggest that Vitesse 2 comes and try and drag the two cars, (which we psychically had to as we had a seized engine and gear box and on the other car a collapsed suspension) under a waved yellow.  We first all went to the cars before the safety car was deployed and I covered the marshals by standing in the firing range and despite double waved yellows at the two previous flag points, even I after 35 years experience of marshalling was a bit concerned. Drivers really don't respect yellow or even red flags and yes we bring it to the attention of the clerks at all times.  It was only when the safety car was deployed I felt safe enough to have a team of 12 work safely, its got nothing to do with health and safety laws or regulations, its my call and when, and in most cases we can recover drivers, cars under waved yellows we do.  Its only under situations where I feel that either the marshals, drivers, the other competitors are at risk of addition injury or damage do we call for a safety car.

 

 

However I don't think it took us that long to clear up, rebuild the chicane and start racing again.

 

WRT to the flowers, that all part of the show, and we have Goodwood staff on post just to rebuild, replace, paint and reflower the chicane all the time.


Edited by zakeriath, 16 September 2014 - 11:34.


#17 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:38

We posted at the same time, zakeriath.

 

I have absolutely no wish to denigrate the enormously valuable work of the marshals and it was actually the hard work I saw them doing during that two-car incident which prompted my original post. Driver behaviour is of course another factor and I certainly wouldn't want to step out onto a track protected only by a yellow flag in those circumstances. As I think my previous post makes clear, I'm not seeking to eliminate safety cars where appropriate - just minimise the necessity for them. A longer, smoother chicane is less likely to produce collisions.

 

If you rewind a little and think back to racing 'in period', would a driver then have taken the risks the Ferrari 1512 driver (whose name escapes me) did yesterday? He ended up broadsiding into the car he was trying to lap, eliminating them both. With the old brick chicane he surely wouldn't even have considered such a move - let alone attempted it. He'd have closed up, followed him through and blasted past on the pit straight.

 

I wouldn't pretend to be a Goodwood history expert, but the only period major collision with the chicane I can recall offhand is Behra's - which I think he managed all by himself.



#18 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 13:03

Not the chicane....but whilst the safety car was out in yesterday's Glover race, it looked to be going faster than car 9, the lady driver [sorry, don't have program to hand] did throughout the race....the drivers bottled up behind her must have been very frustrated at not being allowed to pass her under SC. She was a mobile chicane herself.......



#19 Peter Morley

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 13:18

I was the post chef on the chicane this weekend and had to deal with all the incidents that happened over the weekend.
 
WRT to the Glover race incident, where the whole chicane was almost totally destroyed, I would like to suggest that Vitesse 2 comes and try and drag the two cars, (which we psychically had to as we had a seized engine and gear box and on the other car a collapsed suspension) under a waved yellow.

Did the Ferrari engine/gearbox seize before hitting the car/chicane? That would certainly explain the incident.



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#20 BRG

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 15:54

I was the post chef on the chicane this weekend 

 

Wow, Lord March really does think of everything.  What was on the menu?



#21 Wirra

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 15:55

...If you rewind a little and think back to racing 'in period', would a driver then have taken the risks the Ferrari 1512 driver...

 

Probably not because racing in those days was more a very drawn-out reliability event and a driver would feel as though he/she had the next two hours to past the car in front. In sprint racing today you have to take your opportunities/chances whenever they arise. I watched just about all three days on live streaming (finished at 3:00am each day down here) and I thought the way drivers coped with the chicane, particularly with lapped drivers, was exceptional and a highlight of the racing.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

I was there in 2012 when an ERA (I think) demolished the wall. I hardly had time to say "crikey cobber" and the wall was replaced - well done by the chef and his kitchen-hands.


Edited by Wirra, 16 September 2014 - 01:14.


#22 Vitesse2

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 17:26

Probably not because racing in those days was more a very drawn-out reliability event and a driver would feel as though he/she had the next two hours to past the car in front. In sprint racing today you have to take your opportunities/chances whenever they arise. I watched just about all three days on live streaming (finished at 3:00am each day down here) and I thought the way drivers coped with the chicane, particularly with lapped drivers, was exceptional and a highlight of the racing.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

I was there in 2012 when an ERA (I think) demolished the wall. I hardly had time to say "cricky cobber" and the wall was replaced - well done by the chef and his kitchen-hands.

Er, no - not really. While it is true that in its later years Goodwood hosted some longer events like the TT, short races were very much the order of the day at the majority of meetings there. Taking 1952 at random, the three F1 and F2 races were over 12, 6 and 7 laps. The more numerous Formule Libre events were the same sort of length - a continuation of the old Brooklands ethos. Roughly the same - or less - than most of today's time-limited races. Even in the mid-60s the Formula 1 Glover Trophy only lasted an hour.



#23 Wirra

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 23:05

Er, no - not really. While it is true that in its later years Goodwood hosted some longer events like the TT, short races were very much the order of the day at the majority of meetings there. Taking 1952 at random, the three F1 and F2 races were over 12, 6 and 7 laps. The more numerous Formule Libre events were the same sort of length - a continuation of the old Brooklands ethos. Roughly the same - or less - than most of today's time-limited races. Even in the mid-60s the Formula 1 Glover Trophy only lasted an hour.

 

Okay, if my premise is wrong then I guess my argument is lost.

 

I've looked at the incident several times and the lapped car was travelling very slowly when the leading pack arrived, in hindsight it was a pity he didn't bypass the chicane, to stay out of the way, as others did over the weekend.


Edited by Wirra, 16 September 2014 - 01:13.


#24 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 04:26

I was the post chef on the chicane this weekend and had to deal with all the incidents that happened over the weekend.

 

WRT to the Glover race incident, where the whole chicane was almost totally destroyed, I would like to suggest that Vitesse 2 comes and try and drag the two cars, (which we psychically had to as we had a seized engine and gear box and on the other car a collapsed suspension) under a waved yellow.  We first all went to the cars before the safety car was deployed and I covered the marshals by standing in the firing range and despite double waved yellows at the two previous flag points, even I after 35 years experience of marshalling was a bit concerned. Drivers really don't respect yellow or even red flags and yes we bring it to the attention of the clerks at all times.  It was only when the safety car was deployed I felt safe enough to have a team of 12 work safely, its got nothing to do with health and safety laws or regulations, its my call and when, and in most cases we can recover drivers, cars under waved yellows we do.  Its only under situations where I feel that either the marshals, drivers, the other competitors are at risk of addition injury or damage do we call for a safety car.

 

 

However I don't think it took us that long to clear up, rebuild the chicane and start racing again.

 

WRT to the flowers, that all part of the show, and we have Goodwood staff on post just to rebuild, replace, paint and reflower the chicane all the time.

You must be referring to professional racers! The yellow flag is hurry up and catch the field for them!

I am surprised though, doing that sort of thing under yellows was always, ermm silly! And a marshall run into is hardly historic!

While there is way too many safety cars in motorsport that would be a very good reason for one.



#25 melville

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 05:38

Having searched for threads with CHICANE in the title, I find none of them are connected with the one at Goodwood.

So, simple question; was the chicane there from the very beginning (I suspect the answer is no) and if not, when was it installed?

The chicane was there in 1962 at least if not before. It was a whicker fence then. I went off in a Lotus Elite at Madgwick, the corner after, in a mixed practice following Graham Hill in the eight stack BRM on the morning of Stirling Moss' accident. Obviously an Elite was never going to get around the corner as fast as a Formula One car and I ended up on the wet grass, and into the dirt bank which didn't do the Elite much good.



#26 elansprint72

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 06:08

My humble observation (in general, not about this particular incident) is that the more disposable income the owners/drivers have, the less care they exhibit about the property (and lives) of others. It seems like many folks involved in pipsqueak racing think they are dicing for the last points in a world championship. Which is a shame.



#27 Keir

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 15:49

Bonnier leads Ireland and Hill through the chicane:

 

chicane.jpg

 

But Hill went on to win the Glover Trophy.

 

:rolleyes:

Great stuff as usual



#28 Barry Boor

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 16:03

Oh dear. This has dragged the thread down to an all-time low!

#29 LittleChris

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 21:53

As far as I know Barry, a chicane was first used in 1952.



#30 Tim Murray

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 21:58

This question was fully answered by Eric Dunsdon in post 8 of this thread.

#31 Doug Nye

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 22:36

Joe Colosacco was the driver of Larry Auriana's Ferrari 1512 in this year's Glover Trophy.  He's an engineer/driver with considerable single-seater experience, he's quick, capable and (most importantly) caring. He was running third in the race when he came upon a backmarker at Woodcote. I think Joe first thought of lapping the backmarker right then, but cautiously hesitated, thinking it would be less risky to lap him along the short straight between Woodcote and the chicane. However, the backmarker then proved very fast on that straight - despite the waved blue flags confronting him - but although the 1512 could not outpower its rival on the run in to the braking area, the backmarker then held to a wide line on the left of the track. In consequence, Joe thought he'd be seen, and so headed for the gap between the backmarker and the infield apex wall.

 

At that point the backmarker moved across into the Ferrari's path. Joe braked desperately, under right-hand lock, locked-up and half-spun. The Ferrari then clouted the backmarker's car more or less broadside. The backmarker bounced left into the chicane in a heavy almost head-on impact which did considerable damage to both car and chicane wall assembly.  It can hardy have been comfy for the driver, either...

 

The Ferrari slithered broadside into already collapsing chicanery, with light impact. The only substantial damage to this gorgeous little Swiss watch of a car was two bent left-rear radius rods. Backmarker attention to waved blue flags could have prevented the incident, as could Colosacco backing out after his initial decision to lose no more time and go for it.  But no racer worth his salt will say 'After you Alphonse' in such a split-second situation.  On balance I would consider the backmarker more responsible than the third-placed driver.  

 

When it comes to the broader question of the Goodwood chicane - I have no doubt it will be considered, analysed and debated where it matters.

 

DCN

 

PS - The brick-built left-side apex wall was clobbered with enormous violence in both 1957 (Behra BRM) and 1965 (Siffert BRM) - and the chicane structure also rendered Timmy Mayer unconscious for long minutes in (I believe without checking it) 1963. Just try requesting RACMSA connivance in reinstating a brick wall there today...


Edited by Doug Nye, 16 September 2014 - 22:40.


#32 Stephen W

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:44

The chicane is an integral part of the Goodwood circuit. To alter it significantly would be wrong in the context of the Revival which is after all trying to replicate the racing of the 50s and 60s.

 

Give the light construction of the current iteration and the damage to the two single seaters I doubt there is much to be done in the basic build. 

 

In DCN's analysis of the incident he states that the "Backmarker attention to waved blue flags could have prevented the incident, as could Colosacco backing out after his initial decision to lose no more time and go for it." Also at the time Colosacco did have a car up his chuff and was in a dice for third place. At the time watching it live I thought that Colosacco was more responsible but in watching it back I would now attribute only 40% of the blame with the Ferrari driver with the remainder being place in the hands of the backmarker who had ample opportunity to keep out of the way.  



#33 Barry Boor

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:21

Having seen Duncan Dayton winning this type of race in what I presume is the same Bob Anderson-coloured Brabham, I find it quite sad to see it running so far down the field in 1.5 litre races. But then we aren't all Lewis Hamiltons, are we?

Nice to hear that the Gilby has been seen again but why did it not run? Or was it never supposed to?

#34 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 10:43

Colasacco's best practice lap was almost thirteen seconds quicker than that of the backmarker, who had already been lapped by the two cars ahead of Colasacco. He should therefore have been well aware that the rest of the front runners would be coming through. In my view Colasacco had every right to expect that such a slow backmarker would, and should, let him through.

#35 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 17:55

 

When it comes to the broader question of the Goodwood chicane - I have no doubt it will be considered, analysed and debated where it matters.

 

DCN

And from observations - and mentions in the commentary - during this year's Revival, it appears that (to paraphrase a former Prince of Wales) 'something has been done'. The aesthetic look of it has been maintained, with a change in construction - from what I could gather it's now essentially a water tank. So, capable of absorbing the shock of a collision, while simultaneously being solid enough for people to want to avoid it, rather than the previous 'it'll be okay to hit it, it's only polystyrene'. As far as I'm aware, nobody hit the main structure all weekend and I only saw one driver (Gordon Shedden?) graze the smaller piece on the other side.

 

No doubt the marshals were suitably grateful for the lack of necessary rebuilding, sweeping up and replacement of plant pots! And the smaller number of safety car periods - all triggered by incidents elsewhere on the circuit.

 

I was, BTW, very impressed with Joe Colasacco's race in the teeming rain today ... well, everybody's really!



#36 Stephen W

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:50

And from observations - and mentions in the commentary - during this year's Revival, it appears that (to paraphrase a former Prince of Wales) 'something has been done'. The aesthetic look of it has been maintained, with a change in construction - from what I could gather it's now essentially a water tank. So, capable of absorbing the shock of a collision, while simultaneously being solid enough for people to want to avoid it, rather than the previous 'it'll be okay to hit it, it's only polystyrene'. As far as I'm aware, nobody hit the main structure all weekend and I only saw one driver (Gordon Shedden?) graze the smaller piece on the other side.

 

 

One of the big saloons "skelped" the chicane & removed what appeared to be a section of covering which I think was held in place with "Velcro tape".



#37 nmansellfan

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 12:09

Tom Kristensen in the Ford Thunderbird I think it was. One hell of a large brute to drive, that looked!

#38 Vitesse2

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 12:21

Well, Duncan Pittaway has made quite a mess of the new more solid chicane ... first person I've noticed even touching it this weekend!



#39 Tim Murray

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 12:24

Hope he’s OK - he’s down to give our club a talk tomorrow evening ...

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#40 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 22:13

In the course of a fascinating talk on the history and restoration of his Cheetah, Duncan told us that his crash yesterday was caused by the Hurst selector on the Barracuda’s gearbox coming apart, which led to two gears being engaged at once as he changed down for the chicane. Instant lock-up. :eek:

#41 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 11:03

Regarding the origins of the Paddock Bend chicane at Goodwood - might this fill in a little further background?

 

https://www.goodwood...tall-a-chicane/

 

DCN



#42 Vitesse2

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 11:56

The chicane was comprehensively demolished twice on Friday this year. On Friday the flowerpots were there. They had disappeared by Saturday ...