58 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

"He was the fastest American that ever went over to drive a Grand Prix car," said Carroll Shelby.

So who was Carroll Shelby referring to? Dan Gurney, Phil Hill, Mario Andretti, Mark Donohue or someone else?

I will keep you in suspense until tomorrow.

[Ray Bell]

Chuck Daigh?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Art]

Peter Revson.

Art

Gum Bumpers Buddy.

[Don Capps]

I would guess - in order - Masten Gregory, Herbert MacKay-Fraser or Richie Ginther...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Fast One]

If Joe's telling us, it has to be an oval driver.

[PDA]

I'm pretty sure he made that comment about Masten gregory. Results didn't show that. I would tend towards Dan Gurney.

[Ray Bell]

MacKay Fraser made a name for himself before he was killed, Richie also won some hearts at Monaco in 61... guess we have to wait and see.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Roger Clark]

David Bruce-Brown or Jimmy Murphy?

[Art]

Fastest American could of also been Donohoe. He set a world closed course speed record. 220 mph+ at Taladega in the 917/30 Can Am Porsche.

Art

[Statesidefan]

My vote is with Gurney or Gregory. I'm sure Joe will say Tiny Lund!

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"The strategy of a Formula One race is very simple. It's flat out from the minute the flag drops." Mario Andretti 1976

[Keir]

How about Tim Mayer??

[ZippyD]

Brent Lunger.............. NOT
How about AJ Foyt?

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"I want to tell you something, not about the others but about myself."
"When I saw something like that I used to go to pieces."
"But I'm older now. When I see something really terrible I put my foot down. HARD! Because I know the other person is lifting his."
"What a terrible way to win."
"Cher mademoiselle, there is no terrible way to win. There is only winning."

[Eagle104]

Troy Ruttman

[buddyt]

MARIO

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"Speed cost money, how fast do you want to go?"

[Ray Bell]

That's the first time I've seen Tim Mayer mentioned by anyone but myself....

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Dennis David]

Tim Mayer, Tim Mayer, Tim Mayer. There I've mentioned him.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Joe Fan]

One more hint. Jim Clark considered this driver to be an outstanding driver and he was a hero to him. In fact, Clark teamed up with this driver in a long distance sportscar race and when he matched his lap times Jim knew that he was a star driver.

[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-21-2000).]

[Fast One]

Then it's Gurney. Clark paired with him...at Sebring, I think. And Clark always thought Gurney was as fast as he was. And he was right.

[Joe Fan]

A couple of more hints. It is not Dan Gurney. This driver in his first Indy 500 start started on the last row, passed 14 cars before the first turn on the first lap of the race and was running 5th before engine problems ended his day.

[Psychoman]

AJ Foyt

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And while you're out there sittin' on a fence
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'Cause rock 'n' roll ain't no riddle man
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[Joe Fan]

[Hot Rod Otis]

Masten Gregory.

By the time I'd looked thru my Indy record book, you had the photo up. D@mn I was THIS close.

[Art]

What city and state was Masten Gregory born in?

Art

[Fast One]

Masten was pretty famous for bailing out of moving cars just before the moment of impact. Wasn't he from Kansas or Kansas City? Seems to me I read that somewhere.

[Fast One]

Found this: (excerpts from the Sept., 65 issue of R&T)

"Masten bought the 4.5 Ferrari and took it to Europe. As a private entrant in this factory maintained car, his first season of international sports car racing [1954] was little less than sensational. He took a forth at the Reims 12-hr, his first European race, a third at Lisbon, won at Aintree and won at Nassau.
He continued to do well in sports cars through the 1955 and 1956 seasons and in early 1957 joined the Centro-Sud team to drive a Maserati 250 in Formula 1 events. His first season of Grand Prix racing was an outstanding one as he finished every race he started, placed third at Monaco, fourth at Monza and wound up fifth in the World Championship standings for 1957."

There's more if anyone's interested, but he was a pretty good sports car driver, winning the1961 Nurburgring 1000kms, the Players 200 at Mosport in 1963, and finishing third at the Times GP at Riverside the same year. Finally, he won the Le Mans 24 hr with, of all people, Jochen Rindt in 1965. A bit of a fortunate, win perhaps, but significantly Ferrari's last, although technically the were private entrants.

Masten was involved in a series of crashes starting in late 1957 that left him with a reputation as a car wrecker, and after a stint with the works Coopers in 1959, he was relegated to a series of "fourth rate" privateers. A pity, because he was fast. By the time I saw him on TV in 1965, he was on the downside of his career, but a few guys I know who saw him in the fifties speak of him with reverence and awe. Another potential great one who never got a break?


Masten was invol

[Joe Fan]

Yes, Fast One is correct. Gregory was from my home town Kansas City, Missouri. I would bet most race fans here don't know who he is. I am thinking about writing and submitting an article to my local newspaper about him right around the time of the US Grand Prix weekend. I will spend some time at my local library going through micro-fish of the Kansas City Star newspaper back in the 1950's and 1960's to see if any articles were written about him, especially after his 1965 Le Mans 24HR win. I'll post anything interesting that I find.

Masten was a character and a very underappreciated driving talent. He was the first American driver to score a podium finish in F1 history, in his very first F1 start and at Monaco no less. Had things gone differently in his career with Cooper, he may have been the first American to score an F1 win and possibly a WDC. However, his contract with Cooper was not renewed for the 1960 season and Carroll Shelby said "He was faster than Jack Brabham, so Brabham had Cooper fire him." This seems like a reach and there was probably more to this than that (Masten's infamous bailouts?) but Masten was a #3 driver at Cooper and he had the #3 equipment and he produced quickly in his rookie season in a priavateer Maserati. One thing that was certain, Masten was definately faster than Bruce McLaren when the two went head to head at Cooper in F1 and in F2.

Masten never enjoyed great equipment in F1 but gave some brilliant performances nonetheless. Masten represents another one of those..what might have been if things were different.



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

P.S. If anyone has or finds any interesting info about Mastoid, pass it my way.

[Dennis David]

Keep me informed of your research by way of a bibliography and I will xerox what information I have.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Ray Bell]

Moss said of Masten ('All But My Life'):
"Masten Gregory is another who's come a long way. He used to be one of the hairiest drivers who ever sat in a motor car. Do you remember how he used to jump out? Masten has leapt out of I don't know how many cars. When he got into trouble he would stand up and bail out, he's abandoned more that one can that looked to be on the wrong side of 100 miles an hour, too. But he doesn't do that any more. He's a conscientious and intelligent appraiser of the situation. He doesn't have to go in over his head any more. Remember, Masten Gregory has been in racing longer than anyone else who's now active, with the single exception of Maurice Trintignant*. Think of that! He's dedicated now: I think he's a man who would don anything he felt necessary in order to be better. I used to say to him: 'Masten, you're going to kill yourself.' Now I think it would have to be a case of very bad luc indeed to hurt Masten, I think he's come that far.
"I remember a time I think Masten would like to have run over me. It was in Havana, the year the Castro people kidnapped Fangio. There was alot of oil on the circuit, and I let Masten past into first place, pretty heartlessly, rather like you'd send someone ahead of a squad of soldiers with a mine-detector. Let old Masten find the oil, I said to myself. Then there was a bad accident after a bit and a marshal put out a red flag. Masten stood on everything and slowed right down. I started to slow down, but then I ran through the regulations in my mind and remembered that a red flag, which meant everbody come to a grinding halt the race is over sort of thing, a red flag had no validity except when shown by the clerk of the course, usually at the finish line. So I stuck it into second gear and jumped on the throttle and ran past Masten to win. That been my intention anyway. But Masten was sore. He said he reckoned that he had won the race, and that I had cheated him out of it. I said: 'If you don't know the regs, Masten, you must expect to be beaten by somebody who does.' Buyt then I told him I'd split first prize money with him if he'd split second prize with me, so we came out dead even and then he felt better."
Wonder what really happened at Coopers. Jack was in for the long term because he was doing so much on the engineering side - he was part of the place, and undoubtedly he would get the best gear. McLaren was probably there on some kind of a promise from Jack with his antipodean connections (Bruce won a driver to Europe scholarship), but they were often running a third car. Perhaps it was shortage of engines (Climax only put out a few new ones each year) and shortage of energy when they reached the point where they had to focus on Jack winning the world title?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Don Capps]

Ahem, please note my response...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Joe Fan]

Don, I knew that you probably would figure out who this was. PDA and Statesidefan were on it too.

If anyone can pass any info that you can find about Gregory, especially his personality, I would be delighted. I am going to write an article for our local newspaper about him to enlighten Kansas Citians about one of our own. Hopefully, I am going to make such a strong statement about his talents in the article, that I can then ridicule the locals about having not inducted him into our "Sports Walk of Stars." The "Walk of Stars" is a place where famous athletes that represented Kansas City well get their name put on a section of sidewalk here ala Hollywood style. Notables such as Baseball Hall of Famers Satchel Paige and George Brett, NFL Hall of Fame Quaterback Len Dawson, PGA golfer Tom Watson and others have already been inducted. Isn't it a crime that Masten Gregory hasn't been inducted yet? I think it is. Masten is resting in peace but I won't until he is inducted into the Walk of Stars here.

-Joe Fan on a mission



[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Fast One]

Joe--

A worthy aim. Good luck. I'll send you the R&T article, and whatever else I can find. I knew we'd eventually find something we agreed on>

[Ray Bell]

If, with your best efforts, you can't achieve this end, satisfy yourself that they're not worth it.
Which baseballer represented his country, you might ask? Which footballer went to faraway lands and risked his life to show his skills?
Surely they're points they can't deny, and that Masten paved the way for Hill and Gurney to make their names in Europe, helped create a scene where a US GP came into being. Surely they can see that.

Is it fair that he be better known in Europe than in his home town? There is a precedent for that...

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

Better yet, don't ask for induction... demand that it become the 'Masten Gregory Sports Walk of Stars!' Aim high, show them you mean business! Get a reference from Moss and Hill and Gurney...
Go for it, we'll back you!
What's their email address?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Joe Fan]

Fast One, anything would be appreciated.

Ray, great points! I can't find an e-mail address to the committee who makes the selections but I probably won't have to if the article gets published. After I make my case in the article, common sense will prevail eventually once the media here picks up on it.


One other thing about Masten's podium finish in his first ever F1 Grand Prix start, I have found that there have only been 13 drivers in Formula One history that have ever accomplished this. Five of the drivers on the list that have accomplished this feat, had raced in the early Grand Prix era (Alberto Ascari, Luigi Fagioli, Nino Farina, Reg Parnell, Peter Whitehead). So the list of the eight remaining drivers are:

1) Masten Gregory-3rd 1957 Monaco GP
2) Peter Arundell-3rd 1964 Monaco GP
3) Giancarlo Baghetti-1st 1961 French GP
4) Jean Behra 3rd-1952 Swiss GP
5) Mark Donohue 3rd-1971 Canadian GP
6) Karl Kling-2nd 1954 French GP
7) Jacques Villeneuve-2nd 1996 Australian GP
8) Reine Wissell-3rd 1970 US GP

[Eric McLoughlin]

As a spectacle wearer myself, I'm always keen to find out just how bad was/is the eyesight of those drivers who wore/wear glasses. Everbody says that good eyesight is an essential requirement for a racing driver.

Masten Gregot's "spec" lenses look pretty substantial to me. How blind was he?
On a slightly non "Nostalgia Forum" but related point, is Jaques Villeneuve the only world champion to wear glasses?

[Roger Clark]

Eric, I believe that Villeneuve is not only alone among champions, but the only Grand Prix winner to wear glasses

[Martyj]

Hey, Joe Fan, the only thing I can give you on Masten Gregory's personality is that I heard from Speedway Historian Donald Davidson that for a short, slight man such as Gregory, he had the most improbably deep baritone speaking voice imaginable. It apparently startled most people who met him, who would otherwise expect such a tiny, school-teacher looking man to have a softer voice.

[Dave Ware]

Get your hands on "Sounds of Sebring, 1958". There's a short interview w/ Masten, and yes it is a deep, booming voice. Very distinct.

You often see these things on eBay.

Dave

[Dennis David]

What about the fact that if he were to crash he would always try to jump out first.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Grand Prix History

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

[Joe Fan]

Thanks for the information guys but my search for information struck a pot of gold today. I was able to locate Masten's older brother and guess what?, he lives 25 minutes from my home. I talked to him for an hour and a half on the phone today and he was very happy that I am pursuing this cause to recognize and honor his brother. He is more than happy to help me out which he has already done in my conversation with him today.

[Don Capps]

Joe,

Keep us informed. I would be happy to turn RVM over to you as a guest columnist when you finish your research and have an article ready.

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Joe Fan]

Thanks for the offer Don, I will keep that in mind. Right now I don't want to reveal anything yet because I don't want to spoil any future articles as this situation could have more potential than I realize. Either way, I will keep everyone here posted.

[RehsperW]

Damn. As soon as you said the thing about Jim Clark I knew. Just read Eric Dymock's bio. of Jimmy and I remember it was mentioned.

In B.S. Levy's The Last Open Road Masten jumped out of his car during the 12 hours of Sebring in 1952. Did he really do that at that race?

[Don Capps]

He did at Goodwood in 1959 and did himself some serious harm. However, the car was destroyed so perhaps in this case it was a lose-lose situation. It put a real dent in his GP career since he was a works Cooper driver and generally well liked inside the team. The mechanics thought he was the fastest of the three works drivers. If he had been around & healthy for the rest the 1959 season and then Number Two to Brabham in 1960, I wonder about what might have been...

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[karlcars]

I liked Art's mention of Peter Revson; there's an underappreciated career. It has at least the benefit of a wonderful biography written with Leon Mandel, an absolutely ace book.

'Sounds of Sebring 1958' has been reissued as a CD! This was done in cooperation with IMSA. It carries the number RLP 5011, if that's any help.

[Joe Fan]

Well, I can't believe that I am the only one so far that has voted for Masten in the Pantheon of racers. Masten was a true pioneer in that he was one of the first Americans to compete in F1 on a regular basis and do well. He also was a pioneer in that he was one of the very rare drivers who wore glasses at that time which is not all that common even today. Perhaps, his spectacles may have caused him to be overlooked by top car owners at that time because I am certain that Masten was better than Phil Hill because Masten had mixed it up with Hill and Shelby in sports car races in the U.S. before their International careers took off and faired quite well. And guess who got the first F1 ride amongst them? Masten. If Masten would have gotten a Ferrari ride or was retained by Cooper in 1960, I am confident that he would have been the first American to win a Grand Prix and a WDC.

Masten was also one of the first group of drivers selected by Ford in 1964 to race their new Ford GT40 at Le Mans. Masten and Ginther were paired up together and even led for a while before having to retire (while running second) due to gearbox problems in the 5th hour. Masten's 1965 Le Mans victory was in a independent NART team Ferrari 275 LM. At that time, it was uncommon for a non-factory team to win Le Mans as it had been eight years since a non-factory team had won the prestigeous 24 hour race. Masten's victory in 1965 also to date was the last time a Ferrari has won Le Mans. History has proved Enzo wrong for overlooking him. I bet few people are aware that Masten had moved his family over to Italy right across from the Ferrari factory in hopes of getting a Ferrari ride early on his career.

I think voting for drivers like Gilles Villeneuve, Moss, Gurney, etc. are easy but always take into consideration the lesser known drivers especially when their competitors thought very highly of them. There is always a hidden gem somewhere. Especially those who were pioneers who surely had to overcome stereotypes and barriers like Masten did.




[This message has been edited by Joe Fan (edited 05-05-2000).]

[Ray Bell]

I agree... I think you've forced me to look inwardly and determine that my fourth vote will be for Niel Allen.
Moved his family to opposite the Ferrari factory?
I always had a feeling that the Ginther/Gregory combination was a good one, and for no particular reason.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[This message has been edited by Ray Bell (edited 05-05-2000).]

[Joe Fan]

According to his brother, the only opportunity that Enzo would give Masten was as a fourth driver in which he would only race in 2-3 Grand Prix a year. Masten was pretty peeved at all of this. So much that Masten named his pet bulldog "Enzo" after him.

[Ray Bell]

The one witn the vicious overbite?
What about when the kids had to call it back off the street? "Enzo, Enzo, Enzo... come here you stupid dog!"
That would go down well!

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Life and love are mixed with pain...