19 replies to this topic

[Huw Jenjin]

In GP cars or GP drivers, we came up with a couple of people who won GPs in dogs.
I remember the Lotus H16 result, but not the circumstances, but Jones lucked into the Shadow result.
I am talking about people who had the capability to haul a dog by the scruff of the neck, and beat other people fair and square in highly rated machinery.
Peterson and Villeneuve are starters, and perhaps we can think up some results like Rosgerg in the Theodore, Jones in the Shadow, just to bulk the thread out a bit?

[Ray Bell]

I've never been convinced that the BRM H16 engine was that much of a dog. I feel sure it had the power... maybe it was a bit heavy, what are the stats?
And did it perhaps lose out in centre of gravity?
But it was up there in the first year of a formula which was so lightly sprinkled with top class engines that a modified Buick engine won the title!
Now, who can tell me the Lotus that carried it was all that bad? It was built for the job and was just one F1 car before the classic 49 was penned.
Come on, folks, let's have some reasonable discussion on this topic. The BRM, too, may not have been that bad as a car... what were grid positions like during the year, particularly when the bugs were sorted?

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Tarnik]

I know that Stewart almost won Spa '67 in the BRM H16, but there was a mechanical problem, which gave the lead to Gurney and his beautiful machine.

[vroom-vroom]

Well, the March 701 admitedly was a dog. Yet Stewart won in Spain with it, and Amon came pretty close at Spa. Didn't Chris win a non-championship race (Oulton Park) with it?

[Darren Galpin]

How about Damon Hill almost winning the 1997 Hungarian GP in an Arrows? Or Panis winning the Monaco GP in a Ligier?

[Darren Galpin]

Thinking about it a bit more, Panis was definitely more of a luck candidate, in that he didn't throw it off the black stuff. Hill's drive was definitely more of take-it-by-the-scruff-of-the-neck, as it was nowhere near the lead of a race before or since.

[green-blood]

I was and continue to be suspicious of Hills performance in Hungary - the team were almost liquidated after the previous few rounds debacle and suddenly he was diving under the Ferrari??? Panis lucked in no doubt -only 5 cars finished in the rain that day - But Its the same year and Schumacher(I aint a massive fan - respectful)in his first Ferrari - Now that was a dog, heavy brick like aerodynamcis but he won twice. And a final possibility - Senna in his last McLaren with that useless Ford V8 beating the works engined Bennetons amongst others - superb.

[Keir]

Vroom,
Check the Amon Thread!!!

Panis' Monaco win had nothing to do with luck, it was a first class "ass kicking"
aroung the street circuit in the rain.


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"I Was Born Ready"

[Darren Galpin]

Green-blood - only 3 cars were still going around at the finish, not five. And Keir, it wasn't really an ass-kicking, given that Damon Hill was some 20s ahead of the field when his engine blew up.

[Barry Lake]

Just passing through quickly and saw Keir's comment on Panis' win at Monaco.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I watched that race very closely and studied the times later. Panis and the team did everything they had to do to win that race.
One of the all-time great wins, in fact, I believe. And Panis made some good passing moves.
I think that big crash he had in Canada slowed him for a while, but it would have been interesting to have seen him in a McLaren if Coulthard's ribs had been a bit more troublesome after the plane crash.

[Barry Lake]

Don't forget, he wasn't in the best car.
There is a big difference between winning in the best car and in making the most of a situation and winning with a car that normally wouldn't win.

[green-blood]

Panis + Monaco.

I have no doubt that Panis is a fantastically talented driver before his crash he was right up there in the points all the way and on the podium 2 times that season already, but Monaco he was lucky the top guys chucked it off the road - Schumacher and Hill eapecially. Anyhow he wasnt driving what we have now come to expect from a Prost - he had a nice tractable Honda-Mugen ina very well sorted(TWR - prior to the Arrows deal) Ligier chassis. Not a dog that year and nearly good enough to give stand in Trulli a win in Austria...

As far as winning in dogs of cars how about Bergers come-back form injury and bereavement win in Germany. hmm

[Falcadore]

I've always thought that quite a few underdog adverse weather win aren't given the credit they deserve. For example, Ayrton Senna, and to a lesser extent Stefan Bellof got a lot of credit for they're performances at Monaco in 1984, but how much credit would they have been given if the yardstick of Alain Prost hadn't been ahead of them?

For Panis in Monaco in 1995, he was in the right place at the right time, and drove correctly for the conditions when more credentialled drivers drove incorrectly for the conditions and paid for it with DNFs.

However, I feel Panis performances in early 1997 are a little inflated. He drove very well for sure, however, the performances of Bridgestone teams in 1997 (including Hill's memorable drive at Hungary) were exaggerated by superior rubber. This was demonstarted graphically in 1998 when Bridgstones focus shifted to McLaren and the other Bridgestone teams sufferred.

As I aluded to before, Hungary 1997 placed circumstances in Hill's hands. Hungary bunches car together performance wise because of the nature of the circuit. Hill likes the track, when most actively dislike it, and Hill's record at Hungary is very impressive. His first GP win was at Hungary. And as I mentioned above he had the advantage of Bridgestone.

For underdog wins worthy of note, how about Jo Siffert in the Rob Walker Lotus-Cosworth at Brands Hatch 1968? The car was brand spanking new, Walker having taken delivery of it bare days before the race, no time to sort or test, also not long after a fire destroyed Walker workshop, and at the track where Siffert destroyed a similar Lotus earlier in the year.

[Ray Bell]

After making all kinds of predictions about who would win, Walker said in his R & T report something about a "prophet being without honour in his own country."
I wouldn't necessarily rate that as a huge win, myself, though I well remember my excitement waking up to the news of the result. Always liked Seppi.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[green-blood]

Got it.

The best under dog win - Moss at Monaco against those Red cars in his Walker Lotus with no side panels to save weight - brill, I wish I'd seen those cars, I wish I had the cash to go to this years Monaco historics GP, next week isnt it, someday.

[Ray Bell]

I think the side panels were off to keep him cool... poor Ginther being told, after wringing the Ferrari's neck for twenty laps to try and keep up, "Go Faster!"
A race you'd love to have seen... a day history was made.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Huw Jenjin]

It seems that rain very often has a part to play when surprise results come along. Beltoise 1972 springs to mind, however despite abysmal reliability, the P160 was not a dog, but one of BRM's more succesful, and certainly beautiful racing cars.

[Barry Lake]

A race engineer from back in those days once told me that it was quite common for a car that was a dog in the dry to come into its own in the wet. Something to do with flexing of the chassis.
Likewise, many cars that were great in the dry were all but undrivable in the wet.
Of course some of this can be countered by suspension tuning, but there are numerous race results that point to his theory having some substance.
I think, too, that the theory might still hold for things like Aussie V8 Supercars but perhaps less so for modern F1 cars. The top teams seem on top of things enough to be able to set the cars up for any conditions.

[Ray Bell]

... or they're all so good in the dry that they're equally bad in the wet?
Leffler's Bowin P8 at the Surfers AGP in 1975 was a case in point... poured with rain, led handsomely until the engine got wet, the chassis flexed seriously round the back of the tub. The only place it seemed to be any good in the dry was off the line... its nickname was 'the dragster.'

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Alfisti]

Schumi in Spain 96.... maybe not a total dog but bad enough.

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"Life will not break your heart, it'll crush it" - Henry Rollins.