26895 replies to this topic

[De Jokke]

Hi guys,

since there was already a bit of news concerning the 26 (in the 25 topic), why not start the 26 topic right.

My first question is if the car will implement the mercedes engine cover:

http://www.gpupdate....w-engine-cover/

[Massacrator]

Hi guys,

since there was already a bit of news concerning the 26 (in the 25 topic), why not start the 26 topic right.

My first question is if the car will implement the mercedes engine cover:

http://www.gpupdate....w-engine-cover/

I always found that engine cover very good looking, but I always doubted if it was really much of an improvement of drag reduction as no other team tried to implement it or said anything about it...

[Clatter]

Hi guys,

since there was already a bit of news concerning the 26 (in the 25 topic), why not start the 26 topic right.

My first question is if the car will implement the mercedes engine cover:

http://www.gpupdate....w-engine-cover/

I'm sure all the teams have modelled it, and if there was a real advantage it would already have been copied.

[Francesc]

You can't change the engine cover crash structure during the season...

[King Six]

You can't change the engine cover crash structure during the season...

Yeah, this new cover was actually visible in the early stages of the season, which is why they were able to just modify it. They had it planned from day 1. It might be adopted by new teams, the overral package of the MGP-W01 wasn't good enough to see whether it made a difference.

I was wondering if Exhaust Blown Diffusers are gonna play a role next season, what with the dubious diffusers finally being taken out and single decks coming in. The way I understood the EBD to work is that if there's no longer any openings or holes for air to flow above the diffuser then the EBD is rendered useless as it's not driving any useful air?

[Ali_G]

Is it really that radical though ?

The 1989 Benetton ran with two air intakes also, although the intakes themselves were lower down.

http://www.motorspor...erses/ami04.jpg


I seriously doubt that Mercedes running such an air intake will affect McLaren even if they both share the same engine.

[Clatter]

You can't change the engine cover crash structure during the season...

The engine cover is not part of the crash structure, and as Merc have changed their cover during the season then so could the other teams.

[Timstr11]

As someone has already said, the crash structure is fixed for the season, so teams can't change it.

The aerodynamic advantage is clear to see in my opinion.
The question is about weight. How much heavier (if at all) is it compared to conventional roll hoops.
My feeling is that it comes with a weight penalty, which is one of the reasons why the MGP W01 has a CoG that is too high (stated by Ross Brawn).
Given this, I will not be surprised if Mercedes ditches the setup for next year. Unless they can make it lighter of course.

[Ferrari2183]

The engine cover is not part of the crash structure, and as Merc have changed their cover during the season then so could the other teams.

Yes, but the airbox above the drivers head is part of the crash structure. Mercedes had a splitter in the airbox at the launch and hence it formed part of the crash structure and they could move their air intakes lower and to the side. No other team could do it legally.

[hunnylander]

McLaren MP4-26

[Timstr11]

The engine cover is not part of the crash structure, and as Merc have changed their cover during the season then so could the other teams.

The crash structure is the vertical blade in the case of the W01.
A conventional crash structure, which all other teams run, is a hoop.

Merc launched their car with the vertical blade (crash structure) in place, but with (non structural) bodywork around it that made it look like a conventional hoop. They did this so they could buy time to finalize the new airbox as that is a critical part in engine performance.
So yes, they changed the bodywork, but that is separate and not part of the crash structure.

Edited by Timstr11, 17 October 2010 - 11:16.

[Curt000]

Have all teams got to run kers next year? Or is it like 2009 an optional thing?

Edited by Curt000, 17 October 2010 - 11:16.

[Timstr11]

Have all teams got to run kers next year? Or is it like 2009 an optional thing?

KERS remains optional.

However I think all teams that can afford it will run it.

The tweet I posted in the other thread said something about Mac's KERS to be 'more hydraulic' and 'less electronic': http://twitter.com/R...tus/27228631172
Not sure what to make of that. Will they run a hydraulic KERS that stores energy by pressurizing fluid during deceleration? This will mean they will not use a battery energy storage option and thus not the Mercedes system.

Also see the bit about hydraulic KERS that McLaren developed in 1998:
http://www.racecar-e...the-basics.html

Edited by Timstr11, 17 October 2010 - 11:37.

[RoutariEnjinu]

McLaren MP4-26

Yeah if you're actually proposing a thread about it, it would have been nice putting a bit more effort in.

[Bonaventura]

I've heard a rumour the next years car is red and white, not silver/red

[King Six]

I hope not, the current scheme is already more iconic than whatever other livery McLaren ever had. Well in my opinion at least

[OwenC93]

I've heard a rumour the next years car is red and white, not silver/red

Makes sense, that's what they did with their garage. I do like the current livery.

[chuffbiscuits]

I hope they keep the chrome as it looks gorgeous, especially under the lights at Singapore, but did they agree with Merc that they'd 'hand over' the chrome look after this season? From what I remember when McLaren announced the split with Mercedes, they said they'd be keeping the colour scheme and I don't remember if there was a period of time mentioned.

[Fastcake]

I hope not, the current scheme is already more iconic than whatever other livery McLaren ever had. Well in my opinion at least

Indeed, the livery is beautiful

[Ferrari2183]

Could it be due to the Mercedes works team? I know silver has always been synonymous with Mercedes. I always liked the Red/White paint scheme of the Mclaren from the 80's and early 90's.

[Hypnotise]

The original McLaren coloures would have been nice,but that's never going to happen.

Shame if true tough that the chrome dissapears....

[Bonaventura]

Indeed, the livery is beautiful

It's the most beautiful car on the track
chrome/silver /rocket red & black is goreous
I don't think it can be outdone from any other colour combination
perfect balance from agressiveness and coolness

[Massacrator]

It's the most beautiful car on the track
chrome/silver /rocket red & black is goreous
I don't think it can be outdone from any other colour combination
perfect balance from agressiveness and coolness

Brawn GP looked cooler in my honest opinion

[FonzCam]

I hope not, the current scheme is already more iconic than whatever other livery McLaren ever had. Well in my opinion at least

More iconic then the 23 years they ran the red/white Marlboro livery in which they won 7 WCC and 9 WDC and had drivers such as Prost, Rosberg, Senna, Lauda, Hunt and Fittipaldi at the wheel?

For me the chrome McLaren is only just ahead of the Winfield Williams and Renault R28.

[Bonaventura]

Brawn GP looked cooler in my honest opinion

cool but a bit pale
no warm colours (red, orange)

[Massacrator]

cool but a bit pale
no warm colours (red, orange)

I liked the yellow/white/black combo a bit more than chrome/red, but I have to say that these two with Mercedes behind are the cooler.

Anyway, and I say this as a graphic designer, if it looks cool or not is not as important as the values it transmit.

For example, the chrome livery transmit: hi tech, modern, high value, expensive

The Brawn GP livery could transmit: modernity (yellow/black), low budget/not expensive (a lot of white space), a not so deep identity (white)

Ferrari red: fury, speed, rage, violence

Force-india (white, green, orange): tropical, sun, relaxed, calm...


Personally, I think that for racing, the red is just the best. A red car crossing the line just can't get any better.

[King Six]

More iconic then the 23 years they ran the red/white Marlboro livery in which they won 7 WCC and 9 WDC and had drivers such as Prost, Rosberg, Senna, Lauda, Hunt and Fittipaldi at the wheel?

For me the chrome McLaren is only just ahead of the Winfield Williams and Renault R28.

Yes, more iconic than some arbitrary tobacco sponsorship indeed. That chrome is unique to McLaren and like Massacrator said, there's much more linked to these colours than arbitrary tobacco colours could ever hope for.

Blah blah Senna here we go again with that. I even prefer when people go on about Kubica than having the same old tired rose tinted view of the past

[Atreiu]

I remember a pshop someone did some years ago with McLaren going black where the crome is. Now that was good looking.

[arknor]

I'm sure all the teams have modelled it, and if there was a real advantage it would already have been copied.

there is an advtanage but only without the F-duct which is banned next year so i wouldnt be surprised if everyone copies it

[Bonaventura]

I liked the yellow/white/black combo a bit more than chrome/red, but I have to say that these two with Mercedes behind are the cooler.

Anyway, and I say this as a graphic designer, if it looks cool or not is not as important as the values it transmit.

For example, the chrome livery transmit: hi tech, modern, high value, expensive

The Brawn GP livery could transmit: modernity (yellow/black), low budget/not expensive (a lot of white space), a not so deep identity (white)

Ferrari red: fury, speed, rage, violence

Force-india (white, green, orange): tropical, sun, relaxed, calm...


Personally, I think that for racing, the red is just the best. A red car crossing the line just can't get any better.

Than you know about the psycological effect of colours, if you are graphic designer
(once I starded to study graphic design, but it was not the right thing for me)

Red is the optimal colour for racing
and silver /chrome for a high tech product

[Fastcake]

Brawn GP looked cooler in my honest opinion

I liked Brawn GP's colours, and I miss the individuality, but in my opinion McLaren's are much better.

Personally, I think that for racing, the red is just the best. A red car crossing the line just can't get any better.

Well you would say that you're a Ferrari fan

Now if you were to say a Red and Crome car, you'll be on to something ;)

[Curt000]

They would be silly to change colour scheme of car. It looks awesome as it is.

Edited by Curt000, 17 October 2010 - 21:05.

[Ferrari2183]

I read that car colours were assigned by the nationality of the team. Italy - Rosso Corsa, France - Blue, Britain - Racing Green.

Ferrari seems to be the only team which have kept to that tradition and only raced in other colours on two occasions (white with blue stripes) due to a dispute with the italian government.

[DanardiF1]

I've heard a rumour the next years car is red and white, not silver/red

Now as much as Orange is a McLaren colour, surely the classic image everyone has of a McLaren is the Marlboro liveried models... a return in some form to that would be cool, even though I love the chrome/red/black. My own favourite would be to replace the chrome with black...

[Curt000]

Is the f-duct banned next year?

[Massacrator]

Is the f-duct banned next year?

Yes

[Tufty]

As much as I love the liveries of the past, I hope they go for something totally new and interesting - no point recycling old liveries when a new one could provide more impact IMO

[thelastspot]

I remember a pshop someone did some years ago with McLaren going black where the crome is. Now that was good looking.

Black and Red sounds like it might work fantastically!

I think it would be awseom if a team painted a car a flat grey, like they do on US navy fighters, and Air Force F-15s. Then, highlight the join lines and bolt/rivet holes in a darker shade, so the car shows that it is built out of lots of parts.

Or purple! Has any team tried purple yet? Add some under-floor lighting for the tunnels in Monaco and Singapore, and then these (already) low riders would shine!

Edited by thelastspot, 18 October 2010 - 00:49.

[seahawk]

Depends lack+red would be very aggressive. I do not think Vodafone would like that ,as they surely would prefer something more modern and friendly. Red+White would work, depending on the white used. A cool blueish white is not nice, but a warmer white would look good.

[Stormsky68]

KERS remains optional.

However I think all teams that can afford it will run it.

The tweet I posted in the other thread said something about Mac's KERS to be 'more hydraulic' and 'less electronic': http://twitter.com/R...tus/27228631172
Not sure what to make of that. Will they run a hydraulic KERS that stores energy by pressurizing fluid during deceleration? This will mean they will not use a battery energy storage option and thus not the Mercedes system.

Also see the bit about hydraulic KERS that McLaren developed in 1998:
http://www.racecar-e...the-basics.html

Hmm it may be that a hydraulic solution is more compact than electric or flywheel, and lighter, cheaper, and you can move it anywhere as its on the end of a hose. So it could form part of the moveable ballast maybe if its designed the right shape?

I used an accumulator in a special crane design 20 years back, the accumulator stored enough pressure to operate the hydraulics in the event of an engine shut down and get the load to safety, so I know they can store a decent shot of energy. Accumulator technology will have moved on since in leaps and bounds.

I would like to also see:

Shorter wheelbase
Flexing a la RB
The anvil gone
More compliant ride / less pitch and yaw sensitive aero

The team also have to avoid wasting time on another F duct blind development alley, its more important that the 26 is fundamentally right first.

Edited by Stormsky68, 18 October 2010 - 06:59.

[De Jokke]

I'm concerned that mr. traitor (fry) has revealed all of the 26 knowledge up to that point when he left to ferrari. So know ferrari knows exactly what to expect from Mclaren and we are on the backfoot even before the season has begun...

[undersquare]

Hmm it may be that a hydraulic solution is more compact than electric or flywheel, and lighter, cheaper, and you can move it anywhere as its on the end of a hose. So it could form part of the moveable ballast maybe if its designed the right shape?

I used an accumulator in a special crane design 20 years back, the accumulator stored enough pressure to operate the hydraulics in the event of an engine shut down and get the load to safety, so I know they can store a decent shot of energy. Accumulator technology will have moved on since in leaps and bounds.

How does it work? The hydraulic fluid doesn't compress does it, so what stores the energy? I saw this is what Mac's original banned system used, so it's quite interesting if they have an edge with it.

Especially if it's a part-electric/ part-hydraulic system, a hybrid within a hybrid.

[Stormsky68]

Staff move between teams all the time, I'm sure McLaren gain little bits of knowledge from new starters all the time, as does every other team.

Its what made the Macca court case so ridiculous.

If the team does its job right and the 26 is a good one, it won't matter what Ferrari know, if the cars a dog it won't matter either.

[Peter Perfect]

Hmm it may be that a hydraulic solution is more compact than electric or flywheel, and lighter, cheaper, and you can move it anywhere as its on the end of a hose. So it could form part of the moveable ballast maybe if its designed the right shape?

I used an accumulator in a special crane design 20 years back, the accumulator stored enough pressure to operate the hydraulics in the event of an engine shut down and get the load to safety, so I know they can store a decent shot of energy. Accumulator technology will have moved on since in leaps and bounds.

I would like to also see:

Shorter wheelbase
Flexing a la RB
The anvil gone
More compliant ride / less pitch and yaw sensitive aero

The team also have to avoid wasting time on another F duct blind development alley, its more important that the 26 is fundamentally right first.

That's the key part for me. A car that's got a larger sweet-spot set-up-wise will be a major factor when it comes to understanding how to make best use of the new tyres.

[Stormsky68]

How does it work? The hydraulic fluid doesn't compress does it, so what stores the energy? I saw this is what Mac's original banned system used, so it's quite interesting if they have an edge with it.

Especially if it's a part-electric/ part-hydraulic system, a hybrid within a hybrid.

I don't know how an F1 system will work, but in normal civi street systems you have a gas filled bag or a spring loaded piston which compresses and stores the energy. Hydraulic fluid is there as a means to transfer the energy for a purpose.

[undersquare]

I don't know how an F1 system will work, but in normal civi street systems you have a gas filled bag or a spring loaded piston which compresses and stores the energy. Hydraulic fluid is there as a means to transfer the energy for a purpose.

Ah . I'd imagine the limitation is the weight of the pressure vessel, then. I wonder if the hydraulic side will be used to manage the transition from charging to fully charged or something? For braking consistency. While the lighter battery side does the main storage??? Hope we get to find out more.

[Stormsky68]

Mount the accumulator in the nose on springs LOL no sir its definately not a mass damper sir....

[undersquare]

Mount the accumulator in the nose on springs LOL no sir its definately not a mass damper sir....

Well I do hope the team have made the adjustment into the post-Max era and been more liberal with how they interpret the rules. That's the only way the car will match Newey's next effort.

[ashnathan]

I hope not, the current scheme is already more iconic than whatever other livery McLaren ever had. Well in my opinion at least

How dare anyone ever THINK that ANY livery would beat the West liveried McLarens! I feel insulted as a McLaren fan haha

[scarbs]

My first question is if the car will implement the mercedes engine cover:

No, this sort of engine cover was agreed to be banned by the teams\FOTA.