I'm looking for any information about the "Monnier Speciale" of 1947, which is claimed to be the first French GP car built after the war. It had a FIAT 6-cylinder engine, and 3 cars most probably have been built.
Monnier GP 1947
Started by
Michael M
, May 19 2000 17:10
27 replies to this topic
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#2
AUSTRIA
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Posted 20 May 2000 - 01:14
I think, it was no GP car. Maurice Monnier entered at some Voiturette races in 1947 and 1948 with his 'Monnier speciale'. In 1947 equipped with a FIAT-engine (4 cyl.?) and in 1948 powered by a 6-cyl.-BMW-engine, possibly the 328? I wonder, if they really have built three cars?
Ray, you are a specialist for 'specials'. Wasn't there a Monnier in Australia too ?
Ray, you are a specialist for 'specials'. Wasn't there a Monnier in Australia too ?
#3
Ray Bell
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Posted 20 May 2000 - 05:32
Never, to my knowledge... I thought it was uphill to put a 6-cyl Fiat engine into something, to my knowledge there were no decent such things until the late fifties. Any pictures or further information on it?
The only Fiat-engined Specials in Australia used the 1400 and 1100 engines, to the best of my knowledge, although before the war there could have been anything...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
The only Fiat-engined Specials in Australia used the 1400 and 1100 engines, to the best of my knowledge, although before the war there could have been anything...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#4
KzKiwi
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Posted 21 May 2000 - 03:01
Michael,
If you can locate the book 'Blue Blood' by Serge Bellu this has a record of the Monnier and its Grand Prix history, as well as all other appearances by French marques.
From memory it was either entered or practiced for a handful of GPs, but never raced. Once again, from memory, Bellu's book also refers to only 1 Monnier intended for GP participation.
If you can locate the book 'Blue Blood' by Serge Bellu this has a record of the Monnier and its Grand Prix history, as well as all other appearances by French marques.
From memory it was either entered or practiced for a handful of GPs, but never raced. Once again, from memory, Bellu's book also refers to only 1 Monnier intended for GP participation.
#5
Roger Clark
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Posted 22 May 2000 - 03:27
I've lookedin Blue Blood and can't find any mentionof the Monnier
#6
Felix Muelas
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Posted 22 May 2000 - 03:35
Michael
Yes, as a definitive guide, follow KzKiwi's advice.
I go along Austria in the sense that the Monnier Special was no GP car but a Voiturette. Powered by the FIAT engine that he mentions, Maurice Monnier entered the 1947 Coupe Robert Benoist in Nimes on 1st June. Should a picture ever appear, this should be identifiable by number 23. Goes without saying, but he retired, and we don´t know the reason.
Now, after that, Maurice Monnier discovered the obvious opportunities offered by the BMW 328 (as some other french colleagues also did, mainly the people behind the ingenious Veritas affair) and I have the sensation that he built another Special for 1948 based on a combination of Bristol and BMW elements. Actually he entered that car in the IVth Grand Prix du Salon at Montlhery in October 1948, only to qualify last and retire.
There are a couple of further details about his F2 adventures, both as a constructor and driver from 1950 onwards, to be found in a Mike Lawrence cooperation on David Hodges A-Z of Formula Racing Cars 1945-1990, but I feel those are not what you might be looking for.
:-)
Felix
Yes, as a definitive guide, follow KzKiwi's advice.
I go along Austria in the sense that the Monnier Special was no GP car but a Voiturette. Powered by the FIAT engine that he mentions, Maurice Monnier entered the 1947 Coupe Robert Benoist in Nimes on 1st June. Should a picture ever appear, this should be identifiable by number 23. Goes without saying, but he retired, and we don´t know the reason.
Now, after that, Maurice Monnier discovered the obvious opportunities offered by the BMW 328 (as some other french colleagues also did, mainly the people behind the ingenious Veritas affair) and I have the sensation that he built another Special for 1948 based on a combination of Bristol and BMW elements. Actually he entered that car in the IVth Grand Prix du Salon at Montlhery in October 1948, only to qualify last and retire.
There are a couple of further details about his F2 adventures, both as a constructor and driver from 1950 onwards, to be found in a Mike Lawrence cooperation on David Hodges A-Z of Formula Racing Cars 1945-1990, but I feel those are not what you might be looking for.
:-)
Felix
#7
Ray Bell
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Posted 22 May 2000 - 05:51
Any indication of what Fiat engine was used? Or what other components were combined to build the car? Should make a good comparison with our Specials of the same era..
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
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Life and love are mixed with pain...
#8
GIGLEUX
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Posted 15 May 2003 - 20:44
As a new member I consider I have to read what was written in the preceding threads; so don't be too astonished to see me reopening this particular one somme three years after it was initiated!
So about the Monnier Speciale. Maurice Monnier is oftenly presented as being a Belgian; in fact he is French, born in 1920 at Gamache in the Somme district (north of France). Having raced motorbikes at the end of the thirties, he decided to continue but with racing cars in the fourties after the war. For that he decided to built his own car; he bought a broken Fiat 1500 (6 cyl. 65x75) and put the mechanicals in a central box chassis he built himself; he was not very satisfied with it and raced only one time at the hillclimb of Bellevue ,if I remember well, at the beginnig of 1947, and sold it. The car was rediscovered in 1995 stored for more of 20 years in an attic and without its engine! It is now competing in Historic car races.
For his second Speciale Monnier built a car with a tubular chassis always fitted with a Fiat engine which was very soon replaced by a BMW 328 unit with a Bristol head. Front suspension with VW pieces (torsion bars) and at the rear pieces of Citroen origin. In 1950 Monnier fitted a new and more modern coachwork and continued to race the car occasionaly. Being more and more busy with his garage and second hand cars trade he lent the car to Pierre Bastien in 1954 and finaly sold it to him in 1955. As the car was now too old for GP races, Bastien transformed it in a two seater sports car. Bastien raced it at Chimay in 1955 and 1956; he was killed in a road acident and the car changed hands many times.It was discovered in 1968 at Levallois (Paris suburbs) in a decay building. It is the property of Alain Moitrier, a sculptor of automobilias.
So about the Monnier Speciale. Maurice Monnier is oftenly presented as being a Belgian; in fact he is French, born in 1920 at Gamache in the Somme district (north of France). Having raced motorbikes at the end of the thirties, he decided to continue but with racing cars in the fourties after the war. For that he decided to built his own car; he bought a broken Fiat 1500 (6 cyl. 65x75) and put the mechanicals in a central box chassis he built himself; he was not very satisfied with it and raced only one time at the hillclimb of Bellevue ,if I remember well, at the beginnig of 1947, and sold it. The car was rediscovered in 1995 stored for more of 20 years in an attic and without its engine! It is now competing in Historic car races.
For his second Speciale Monnier built a car with a tubular chassis always fitted with a Fiat engine which was very soon replaced by a BMW 328 unit with a Bristol head. Front suspension with VW pieces (torsion bars) and at the rear pieces of Citroen origin. In 1950 Monnier fitted a new and more modern coachwork and continued to race the car occasionaly. Being more and more busy with his garage and second hand cars trade he lent the car to Pierre Bastien in 1954 and finaly sold it to him in 1955. As the car was now too old for GP races, Bastien transformed it in a two seater sports car. Bastien raced it at Chimay in 1955 and 1956; he was killed in a road acident and the car changed hands many times.It was discovered in 1968 at Levallois (Paris suburbs) in a decay building. It is the property of Alain Moitrier, a sculptor of automobilias.
#9
alessandro silva
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 08:03
What J.-M. says is very interesting. I always suspected that there were two Monniers, but I was never able to find proof in secondary sources. It is always said that Monnier put a BMW engine in place of the Fiat.
I have been also curious about this car, since it is a rare example of racing employement of the 6C Fiat engine, one of the less successful in the history of the marque. It is said that Monnier could squeeze 70bhp out of it, which is more than the Italian "wizards" could ever do. He used 3 Stromberg carburettors.
A car (the second??) with Fiat engine was raced at Chimay, Nîmes voiturettes, and the two Monthléry ACIF/AGACI meetings during 1947. It has to be noticed that Bellevue was on May 11th, Chimay May 26th, Nîmes on June 1st and the AGACI spring meeting on June 8th. The second car must have been built very rapidly indeed!!!
A contraddiction with what J.-M. says is about what is called "le pont" in French. I found it of Simca origin instead of Citroën
BTW The Monnier popped out in another thread also.
And now, Jean-Maurice, please tell us something about the Berté-Opel Rekord!
I have been also curious about this car, since it is a rare example of racing employement of the 6C Fiat engine, one of the less successful in the history of the marque. It is said that Monnier could squeeze 70bhp out of it, which is more than the Italian "wizards" could ever do. He used 3 Stromberg carburettors.
A car (the second??) with Fiat engine was raced at Chimay, Nîmes voiturettes, and the two Monthléry ACIF/AGACI meetings during 1947. It has to be noticed that Bellevue was on May 11th, Chimay May 26th, Nîmes on June 1st and the AGACI spring meeting on June 8th. The second car must have been built very rapidly indeed!!!
A contraddiction with what J.-M. says is about what is called "le pont" in French. I found it of Simca origin instead of Citroën
BTW The Monnier popped out in another thread also.
And now, Jean-Maurice, please tell us something about the Berté-Opel Rekord!
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 08:49
So finally I learn more about which Fiat engine!
This is the engine that came into being in 1936, 1500cc and I assume a side-valve design?
But no mention is made of which type of Fiat engine brought the second car to life and was replaced by the BMW 6. One could easily presume it was yet another 1500 six, but one could also be very wrong taking such liberties.
Jean-Maurice? Allesandro?
And what of AUSTRIA's suggestion that one car made it to Australia... and that there were three cars in total? Or perhaps he was thinking of some other Australian car with a similar name?
This is the engine that came into being in 1936, 1500cc and I assume a side-valve design?
But no mention is made of which type of Fiat engine brought the second car to life and was replaced by the BMW 6. One could easily presume it was yet another 1500 six, but one could also be very wrong taking such liberties.
Jean-Maurice? Allesandro?
And what of AUSTRIA's suggestion that one car made it to Australia... and that there were three cars in total? Or perhaps he was thinking of some other Australian car with a similar name?
#11
Vitesse2
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 08:58
I think there's some confusion with the Montier Specials, which date from the 1920s and 1930s, and were Ford-engined. we've touched on them in various threads and the Grand Prix car is in Blue Blood.
#12
alessandro silva
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 09:08
I suspect that it was the same engine placed in the second car.Originally posted by Ray Bell
So finally I learn more about which Fiat engine!
This is the engine that came into being in 1936, 1500cc and I assume a side-valve design?
But no mention is made of which type of Fiat engine brought the second car to life and was replaced by the BMW 6. One could easily presume it was yet another 1500 six, but one could also be very wrong taking such liberties.
The 1936 Fiat Millecinquecento was commercially killed by the Lancia Aprilia..
NO side-valves in Fiat engineering since the 20s, yet the 6C 1500 engine developed only 40 bhp.
#13
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 09:46
Originally posted by alessandro silva
.....NO side-valves in Fiat engineering since the 20s, yet the 6C 1500 engine developed only 40 bhp.
I wouldn't bet anything valuable on that one...
The Topolino 500 had side valves.
The book I'm looking at (a cheapy thing, Encyclopedia of Cars under Chris Horton's name) only mentions overhead valves specifically in relation to cars of the 30s in the Balilla sports version of 1934 and the 508C of 1937. In making this mention in the former case, it seems to set the car aside because it has the overhead valves.
On the other hand, in it's listing of cars of the twenties it makes many mentions of side valve engines and singles out the V12 and the 509 OHC engine as different.
Just so you can see why I asked that question...
#14
alessandro silva
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 10:02
NO. It had oh valves.Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Topolino 500 had side valves.
The Balillas you mention had oh valves AND oh camshafts
#15
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 13:20
Well, Alessandro, I don't want to upset you or anything, but Mr Horton's book (with foreword by Karl Ludvigsen) sez they have side valves.
Now, this might be wrong, I have every confidence that these things can be wrong. But when I looked under the bonnet of the only Topolino bonnet I've ever seen under, I saw what must have been the smallest cylinders I've ever seen in a road car.
And the engine I was looking at had a cracked block, and Greg Adams, the mechanic, said to me that it was a common problem. But the thing I remember just as much as all of that (and it is only forty years ago) was that there were eight little valves alongside all those cylinders in that block.
Do we have any other corroborating evidence?
Now, this might be wrong, I have every confidence that these things can be wrong. But when I looked under the bonnet of the only Topolino bonnet I've ever seen under, I saw what must have been the smallest cylinders I've ever seen in a road car.
And the engine I was looking at had a cracked block, and Greg Adams, the mechanic, said to me that it was a common problem. But the thing I remember just as much as all of that (and it is only forty years ago) was that there were eight little valves alongside all those cylinders in that block.
Do we have any other corroborating evidence?
#16
Vitesse2
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 13:34
Originally posted by Ray Bell
Well, Alessandro, I don't want to upset you or anything, but Mr Horton's book (with foreword by Karl Ludvigsen) sez they have side valves.
Now, this might be wrong, I have every confidence that these things can be wrong.
... like a second-hand book about F1 cars I came across the other day which stated that the Lotus 49 was German. The author? Some chap called Doug Nye ....
I didn't buy it.
#17
dretceterini
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 18:10
There were any number of racing "specials" based on the 6 cylinder Fiat motor, including a Stanguellini, plus some coachbuilt sports and touring cars.
There was a version of The Monnier powered by a Fiat 1500B motor which is shown in the book Fiat 1500 e 2800 fuoriserie (special bodied Fiat 1500 and 2800s) by Sannia
Without checking, I believe that the Tipo A Topolino had side valves, and the Tipo B and C had overhead valves.
Many companies made OHV conversions (Casa dell'Auto made an OHV conversion with central spark plugs) and even single and twin can heads for these motors. Giannini made a 3 main bearing bottom end.
There was a version of The Monnier powered by a Fiat 1500B motor which is shown in the book Fiat 1500 e 2800 fuoriserie (special bodied Fiat 1500 and 2800s) by Sannia
Without checking, I believe that the Tipo A Topolino had side valves, and the Tipo B and C had overhead valves.
Many companies made OHV conversions (Casa dell'Auto made an OHV conversion with central spark plugs) and even single and twin can heads for these motors. Giannini made a 3 main bearing bottom end.
#18
GIGLEUX
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 18:16
My source about Fiat engines is Fiat catalogo Bolaffi and it says:
-Fiat 500 Topolino anno di costruzione 1936-1948 valvole monolaterali
-Fiat 500 B/C Topolino 1948-49/1949-54 valvole in testa (testata in alluminio)
-Fiat 1500/1500B/1500C 1935-1948 1500 6 cilindri 65x75 1493cc valvole in testa allineate
-Fiat 508 Balilla 1932-1934 4 cilindri 65x75 995 cc valvole monolaterali
-Fiat 508S Balilla Sport 1933-1934 idem
-Fiat 508 and 508S con motore 108CS 1934-1937 65x75 valvole in testa verticali allineate
-Fiat 508C Nuova Balilla 1100 1937-1939 4 cilindri 68x75 1089cc valvole in testa verticali allineate
So it seems Alessandro and Ray that you are both right, it depends of the year of production considered...
About the use of Citroen pieces to the rear suspension of the Monnier,I don't speak of the "pont" which cannot be of Citroen origin this one being a FWD!
About the Topolino "monolaterali" it explains why Siata and others like Testadoro proposed transformations with valvole in testa, but here I'm in Alessandro's garden!
-Fiat 500 Topolino anno di costruzione 1936-1948 valvole monolaterali
-Fiat 500 B/C Topolino 1948-49/1949-54 valvole in testa (testata in alluminio)
-Fiat 1500/1500B/1500C 1935-1948 1500 6 cilindri 65x75 1493cc valvole in testa allineate
-Fiat 508 Balilla 1932-1934 4 cilindri 65x75 995 cc valvole monolaterali
-Fiat 508S Balilla Sport 1933-1934 idem
-Fiat 508 and 508S con motore 108CS 1934-1937 65x75 valvole in testa verticali allineate
-Fiat 508C Nuova Balilla 1100 1937-1939 4 cilindri 68x75 1089cc valvole in testa verticali allineate
So it seems Alessandro and Ray that you are both right, it depends of the year of production considered...
About the use of Citroen pieces to the rear suspension of the Monnier,I don't speak of the "pont" which cannot be of Citroen origin this one being a FWD!
About the Topolino "monolaterali" it explains why Siata and others like Testadoro proposed transformations with valvole in testa, but here I'm in Alessandro's garden!
#19
GIGLEUX
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 19:19
Alessandro, about Monnier participations in 1947: Monnier raced the car only once at Bellevue
hillclimb and after that he sold it to a man who was a cinema holder at Douai, Nord district (north of France). We can suppose it was the "Freige" who raced the car at Chimay with number 34 and finished 11th at 2 laps.
Of course Monnier entered at Nimes with N.23 (official programme and L'Equipe) but I doubt he came to Nimes as there is no trace of him in race report and he doesn't figure in the list of best times on one lap of each competitor published by L'Equipe.The same for the AGACI race at Montlhéry.
OK I'll open a thread about Berte carsbut it is a rather complex story as you'll see.
hillclimb and after that he sold it to a man who was a cinema holder at Douai, Nord district (north of France). We can suppose it was the "Freige" who raced the car at Chimay with number 34 and finished 11th at 2 laps.
Of course Monnier entered at Nimes with N.23 (official programme and L'Equipe) but I doubt he came to Nimes as there is no trace of him in race report and he doesn't figure in the list of best times on one lap of each competitor published by L'Equipe.The same for the AGACI race at Montlhéry.
OK I'll open a thread about Berte carsbut it is a rather complex story as you'll see.
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#20
Ray Bell
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Posted 16 May 2003 - 21:48
'Idem', Jean-Maurice... 'idem'?
This book says they had overhead valves. I don't claim to be right or wrong in any of this except that I have sure knowledge that I saw under the bonnet (c. 1964) and clearly identified side valves in that engine.
I hope Alessandro understands that I wasn't trying to take the mickey out of him...
This book says they had overhead valves. I don't claim to be right or wrong in any of this except that I have sure knowledge that I saw under the bonnet (c. 1964) and clearly identified side valves in that engine.
I hope Alessandro understands that I wasn't trying to take the mickey out of him...
#21
fines
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Posted 17 May 2003 - 07:32
(latin) = the sameOriginally posted by Ray Bell
'Idem', Jean-Maurice... 'idem'?
#22
Ray Bell
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Posted 17 May 2003 - 08:38
Originally posted by fines
(latin) = the same
Thought it might...
So I guess my conclusions from the book I have a fairly right - with the notable exception of the engine we are discussing!
Man, I'd just love to hear that little ohv 1500 six sing! I love the sound of a nice revvy inline six...
#23
dretceterini
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Posted 17 May 2003 - 14:37
From my research, it appears that only Stanguellini made a special cylinder head for a Fiat 1500. Tajana, a tuner, did further development on that head, and a Tajana/Fiat 1500 ran in the 1947 Mille Miglia as race number 183. There were any number of other companies that did "tuning" on Fiat 1500s..
#24
alessandro silva
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Posted 18 May 2003 - 16:37
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Alessandro, about Monnier participations in 1947: Monnier raced the car only once at Bellevue
hillclimb and after that he sold it to a man who was a cinema holder at Douai, Nord district (north of France). We can suppose it was the "Freige" who raced the car at Chimay with number 34 and finished 11th at 2 laps. [/QUOTE]
This is again very interesting.
Of course Monnier entered at Nimes with N.23 (official programme and L'Equipe) but I doubt he came to Nimes as there is no trace of him in race report and he doesn't figure in the list of best times on one lap of each competitor published by L'Equipe.The same for the AGACI race at Montlhéry. [/QUOTE]
It is very possible. But Bonnet's best time is not given also and he was in Nimes! (Photo in the recent Wimille book).
I do not know who were the actual starters at Nimes. Do you?
I have Monnier also in the Autumn meeting at Mon†hléry as a DNA/DNS.
OK I'll open a thread about Berte carsbut it is a rather complex story as you'll see. [/QUOTE]
The 1947 Opel Spl should be enough. His racers 500 are covered in Jolly's boooklet.
Alessandro, about Monnier participations in 1947: Monnier raced the car only once at Bellevue
hillclimb and after that he sold it to a man who was a cinema holder at Douai, Nord district (north of France). We can suppose it was the "Freige" who raced the car at Chimay with number 34 and finished 11th at 2 laps. [/QUOTE]
This is again very interesting.
Of course Monnier entered at Nimes with N.23 (official programme and L'Equipe) but I doubt he came to Nimes as there is no trace of him in race report and he doesn't figure in the list of best times on one lap of each competitor published by L'Equipe.The same for the AGACI race at Montlhéry. [/QUOTE]
It is very possible. But Bonnet's best time is not given also and he was in Nimes! (Photo in the recent Wimille book).
I do not know who were the actual starters at Nimes. Do you?
I have Monnier also in the Autumn meeting at Mon†hléry as a DNA/DNS.
OK I'll open a thread about Berte carsbut it is a rather complex story as you'll see. [/QUOTE]
The 1947 Opel Spl should be enough. His racers 500 are covered in Jolly's boooklet.
#25
GIGLEUX
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Posted 18 May 2003 - 22:38
Alessandro you are a formidable Sherlock Holmes!! of course you are right with René Bonnet and his DB-Citroen monoposto wearing N.1 but it's not because he was here that Monnier was too; in
L'Equipe you can find his time in the first practise session and nothing about Monnier. What I have about Nimes 1947 is rather light (L'Equipe and L'Automobile) but you know that the coverage of some races of that time was rather poor with even no newspapers on the Sunday. Restrictions on the paper a that time! I spent some years ago one day at the Nimes archives with no more information, so I did'nt find the complete list of starters for the F1 and little cylindrées races. But I'm
quite sure that Monnier was't here.
OK for René Berte car but do you know that he built seven racing cars of which only two were F3-500 ones?
L'Equipe you can find his time in the first practise session and nothing about Monnier. What I have about Nimes 1947 is rather light (L'Equipe and L'Automobile) but you know that the coverage of some races of that time was rather poor with even no newspapers on the Sunday. Restrictions on the paper a that time! I spent some years ago one day at the Nimes archives with no more information, so I did'nt find the complete list of starters for the F1 and little cylindrées races. But I'm
quite sure that Monnier was't here.
OK for René Berte car but do you know that he built seven racing cars of which only two were F3-500 ones?
#26
dretceterini
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Posted 19 May 2003 - 16:37
I love these obscure French and Italian racers, so more information please! It is very difficult to find out anything on these machines here in the US..
#27
Rupertlt1
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Posted 08 February 2015 - 11:50
I suspect this car of Ecurie Flandres, in the Isle of Man, may be of interest here:
https://revslib.stan...log/sv543th2374
See also:
http://www.motorspor...bmw-not-bristol
http://www.motorspor...0/iom-car-races
http://www.motorspor...ns-max-cup-race
http://www.motorspor...la-event-chimay
Also:
http://www.racingspo...ke/Monnier.html
RGDS RLT
Edited by Rupertlt1, 08 February 2015 - 13:51.
