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Mercedes GP 2011 - MGP W02


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#1 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 13:59

A season with many faces has come to an end. The MGP W01 was the result of a highly-strung 2009 championship battle and the lack of resources that hit the Brawn GP team.

The season started with the news that Nico Rosberg was signed, followed by the announcement that seven times world champion Michael Schumacher would join the team. There were high expectations that partially have been fulfilled.

The Car
Disappointment amongst fans when the car was unveiled. It seemed conservative and hardly revolutionary. It showed in its results: It wasn't capable of fighting for wins and midway through the season Mercedes GP came to realize that their best best would be to focus on next year. Problems with weight distribution, getting the diffuser to work properly and managing tyre degradation played a big part in what was a decent year by Mercedes, when it should have been a great year.

Schumacher
Literally nothing compared to the amount of news generated by the return of the author of the record books - Michael Schumacher. His return was highly anticipated by some, questioned by others. His season started decent (in light of his three year absense) and quick progression was foreseen by many. The quick progression turned out to be long-term slow progression, which lead to interesting discussions about his form. Had trouble in getting the tyres to work, wasn't really happy with the handling of the car. Was hit by some bad luck in some races, car irregularities throughout the season and then crippled by some of the worst team tactics we have seen in 2010. Many claimed he should and would retire at the end of 2010, but he himself kept smiling and looking forward to the better days, which he hopes he can find in 2011. His end-of-2010 form is promising and should the new car and new tyres suit his driving more there might be a spectacular season ahead of us. Has shown to be a great team player and able to support the other driver when seemingly required by the team.

Rosberg
Nico Rosberg faced an interesting prospect at the start of 2010. The return of an alltime great in stead of facing 2009 World Champion Jenson Button as his teammate. Managed to do extremely well against the seven times world champion. He too was hit by some bad luck and probably would have ended up sixth in the WDC without it. Got the most out of the car in most races and was rewarded early on in the season with two podiums. Manifested himself as the team's #1 driver having the highest stake to fight for (6th in the WDC). Team strategy was focused on him and has paid off for the most part.

2011
What will 2011 bring? KERS is confirmed for the MGP W02, but that's basically as far as it goes at the moment. An interesting foresight is the fact that Mercedes GP started focusing on the 2011 car early on in the season, and the fact that it's already been adhering to the new mandatory lowering of personnel numbers for over a year now.

Will 2011 have the silver arrows flying? Will we see two more drivers be able to mix it with the front runners? Or will 2011 again turn out to be decent in stead of great?

Discuss here while we pass the time until the start of the 2011 F1 season!

Edited by Augurk, 16 November 2010 - 18:02.


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#2 KiloWatt

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 14:38

Ok, right off the bat here's hoping that the W02 is significantly better than the W01. I consider myself a fairly realistic person and some race wins would be a success for the team, even if the champioship isn't possible.

There are reasons for optimism though:
New race engineers for Schum and Ros
Closer cooperation with Daimler
Earlier development + resources
A rapidly improving Schumacher
The best KERS (in 2009)
Fixed weight distribution regulations

Also, I heard somewhere that (though don't ask for a link, it was a while back) that Merc hired a Michelin guru to work in their tyre simulation department. Should stand them in good stead.

Here's hoping!

#3 hotstickyslick

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:05

Looking at the monstrosities this team has produced these past four years, I wouldn't be too confident. For sure the Brawn car was good but that had more resources and money put into it than any other F1 car in history, plus they benefitted from the diffusor loophole. I think at best they could make a car that would suit Schumacher better but I'll be surprised if they could fight for race victories and championships.

#4 William Hunt

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:35

I still have doubts whether Schumacher will remain in F1, I think he will decide after he tests the new car for the first time so the 3rd Mercedes driver could see himself promoted to a race seat. And I think the accident he had with Liuzzi in Abu Dhabi will make him wonder whether it's all still worth the risk at his age.

#5 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:50

This thread has barely started and is already a thread about the drivers.

And 'Barbie' versus 'The Champion' in the OP is already a deliberate jibe against Rosberg.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 November 2010 - 15:50.


#6 pRy

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:51

It's not Barbie it's Britney.

http://plixi.com/p/57112914

#7 Disgrace

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 15:54

I'm going to remain heavily skeptical of Mercedes until Bahrain. This team is still far too similar to the one Honda had in 2008 as proven by their weak 2010.

Edited by Disgrace, 15 November 2010 - 15:55.


#8 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:00

This thread has barely started and is already a thread about the drivers.

And 'Barbie' versus 'The Champion' in the OP is already a deliberate jibe against Rosberg.

What's up with the sour grapes? Was just trying to incorporate a bit of humour in the OP by indicating how the driver's were considered by the public at the start of the season. Tried my best to make the OP as balanced as possible, apologies if I've failed. Better now?

This thread is to discuss the Mercedes GP team and the drivers are an inseperable part of that.

Edited by Augurk, 15 November 2010 - 18:02.


#9 JPW

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:10

This thread is to discuss the Mercedes GP team and the drivers are an inseperable part of that.

Good thread :up:

It's going to be a very important winter for Mercedes because they really only have next year to come up with a proper car, capable of winning races.
If it's another year like this I foresee big problems and many (staff) changes. Hope Ross produces a rocketship and would love to see Nico and big Schumi mix it in with Ferrari, macca and Red Bull next year.

#10 Number62

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:16

A different colourscheme would be nice. I didn't like the matt silver and thought it was hard to spot in the pack. How about Kawasaki lime green?

#11 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:45

What's up with the sour grapes? Was just trying to incorporate a bit of humour in the OP by indicating how the driver's were considered by the public at the start of the season. Tried my best to make the OP as balanced as possible, apologies if I've failed. Better now?

This thread is to discuss the Mercedes GP team and the drivers are an inseperable part of that.

"Team strategy was focused on him and has paid off for the most part." sounds pretty serious to me.
It's bullshit and you and all of the Schumacher fanatics know this.
Just deal with the fact that MS had is ass served royally on a plate, fair and square by "Barbie" or whatever you want to call Rosberg.



#12 tifosi4life

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 18:53

"Team strategy was focused on him and has paid off for the most part." sounds pretty serious to me.
It's bullshit and you and all of the Schumacher fanatics know this.
Just deal with the fact that MS had is ass served royally on a plate, fair and square by "Barbie" or whatever you want to call Rosberg.

I will admit he lost this year, but fair and square... No. Way too many bad pit calls with Nico strangely benefiting.

#13 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:10

"Team strategy was focused on him and has paid off for the most part." sounds pretty serious to me.
It's bullshit and you and all of the Schumacher fanatics know this.
Just deal with the fact that MS had is ass served royally on a plate, fair and square by "Barbie" or whatever you want to call Rosberg.

To be fair, I think everyone has seen the continuous stream of dodgy pit calls being thrown at Schumacher. Beside that for instance the fact that Schumacher was much faster than him in Suzuka, still Rosberg defended vigorously and the exact opposite happened in Brazil when Schumacher allowed him past when he had the fresher tyres.

It was not intended as a "jibe" against Rosberg or whatever you want to call it, as you can see in the part you quote I also mention it paid off. Sounds like a compliment, right?

But go on putting everyone in either [pro-Schumacher-anti-Rosberg] or [pro-Rosberg-anti-Schumacher] if it pleases you.

Edited by Augurk, 15 November 2010 - 19:10.


#14 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:17

The best KERS (in 2009)


As BrawnGP?? There was no Kers.

But is Kers even coming back in 2011?

#15 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:19

To be fair, I think everyone has seen the continuous stream of dodgy pit calls being thrown at Schumacher. Beside that for instance the fact that Schumacher was much faster than him in Suzuka, still Rosberg defended vigorously and the exact opposite happened in Brazil when Schumacher allowed him past when he had the fresher tyres.

It was not intended as a "jibe" against Rosberg or whatever you want to call it, as you can see in the part you quote I also mention it paid off. Sounds like a compliment, right?

But go on putting everyone in either [pro-Schumacher-anti-Rosberg] or [pro-Rosberg-anti-Schumacher] if it pleases you.

First of all, there were 19 races this year. Even if 1 or 2 calls went against him, you cannot account for Schumacher's relative under performance.
Dodgy calls happen. Ask Alonso.

And No, it's not a compliment to Rosberg because basically you're saying the team has favored Rosberg. That's a lie. Plain and simple.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 November 2010 - 19:19.


#16 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:19

As BrawnGP?? There was no Kers.

But is Kers even coming back in 2011?

Mercedes had developed the best KERS system, deployed at the time only by McLaren. And yes, KERS is confirmed for next year.

#17 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:22

First of all, there were 19 races this year. Even if 1 or 2 calls went against him, you cannot account for Schumacher's relative under performance.
Dodgy calls happen. Ask Alonso.

And No, it's not a compliment to Rosberg because basically you're saying the team has favored Rosberg. That's a lie. Plain and simple.

All I'm going to say is you are trying extremely hard to find negative vibes in my post that are not there - and if you read them there they are not intended the way you think they are. This thread was started on a positive note and in order to preserve that (and prevent derailing the topic) I'm not going to respond to your accusations anymore.

#18 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:22

Mercedes had developed the best KERS system, deployed at the time only by McLaren. And yes, KERS is confirmed for next year.


Ah alright. But didn't Ferrari had best KERS?

#19 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:24

Ah alright. But didn't Ferrari had best KERS?

Perhaps in some races it worked better. However I feel (and I think Ross Brawn has said the same) McLaren had the best KERS system over the course of the year.

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#20 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:27

Perhaps in some races it worked better. However I feel (and I think Ross Brawn has said the same) McLaren had the best KERS system over the course of the year.


Alright, fair enough :) So will Force India have their KERS as well?

#21 BiH

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:29

Ah alright. But didn't Ferrari had best KERS?


nope mercedes KERS was best. mclaren was crappy car but with KERS they managed to climb back to fight brawn and red bull

#22 Lokt

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 19:33

Ah alright. But didn't Ferrari had best KERS?


The general opinion around the paddock is that mercedes developed the best KERS system in 2009 tho it was only raced by Mclaren. Ferrari and Renault tried to get the power output raised for 2011 but mclaren and mercedes didn´t so they will race the same KERS they used in 2009.

I think Haug said a while back that they haven´t stopped the development of KERS and they have manage to make it lighter than it was in 2009, I belive it was the lightest KERS back then (25 kg?) So thats really good news for Mercedes.

#23 Jan.W

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:11

First of all, there were 19 races this year. Even if 1 or 2 calls went against him, you cannot account for Schumacher's relative under performance.
Dodgy calls happen. Ask Alonso.

And No, it's not a compliment to Rosberg because basically you're saying the team has favored Rosberg. That's a lie. Plain and simple.


oohh shut up, please. You are turning this topic in what you accuse others to do so. :rolleyes:


#24 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:32

The truth hurts.

#25 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:33

Just let it go, Tim. Jesus.

#26 King Six

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:39

Mercedes have said that their KERS is 21kg (down from 25kg) for 2011. It's also the most expensive. McLaren are a definite customer but they might have out priced it for Force India.

I'm surprised McLaren, what with them winding down the Mercedes partnership, haven't developed a KERS of their own for 2011, even Williams are making their own, dirt-cheap compared to the Merc system too (0.5m instead of 6m, according to the article).

http://www.yallaf1.c...-cost-for-2011/

Mercedes should be looking good for 2011, considering that the 2010 car was a Brawn operation and Mercedes came into the team quite late, whereas now they've had a whole year to sort it out and a huge lead time for 2011...I wonder if they'll run their passive F-duct alongside the adjustable rear wing for 2011.

They'll probably be running a pull-rod design like Red Bull for 2011. Especially with double diffusers (finally) banned. Brawn has even commented on that himself:

"To give you an example, a pull-rod rear suspension was something that some of my engineers wanted to do, but when it came down to it we opted for a more conservative approach and stuck to what we knew.

"I didn't feel we were in a position to do that back then, because if it didn't go right we could have been in an even worse situation than we are now.

"I didn't restructure the team until earlier this year. What I feel now is that I have got an organisation where I am very comfortable if they want to tackle those sorts of challenges. I'm encouraging them to do so.


http://www.telegraph...id-in-2011.html

I wouldn't be surprised if we see RB6 clones all-round for next season though.

#27 ivand911

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:41

The truth hurts.

We can discuss truth in every MS thread if you want?

#28 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:42

I wouldn't be surprised if we see RB6 clones all-round for next season though.


I'm a bit afraid for that yeah - meanwhile Red Bull will make an even better RB7 :o

#29 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:43

I'm a bit afraid for that yeah - meanwhile Red Bull will make an even better RB7 :o

Yup. There's one question in how much will MGP be able to catch up? Then there's also the question how far will Newey jump ahead again?

#30 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:44

I'm surprised McLaren, what with them winding down the Mercedes partnership, haven't developed a KERS of their own for 2011, even Williams are making their own, dirt-cheap compared to the Merc system too (0.5m instead of 6m, according to the article).

According to a tweet from Race-Car engineering, McLaren is actually developing a (hydraulic) KERS of their own.




#31 arknor

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:47

.I wonder if they'll run their passive F-duct alongside the adjustable rear wing for 2011.

i think f-duct is banned next year?

#32 ktsayshi

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:48

i think f-duct is banned next year?


The driver-operated F-duct is banned. MGP's is a passive version.

#33 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:49

i think f-duct is banned next year?

Depends, I think it's more of a gentleman's agreement between the teams. But does it include passive systems?

#34 Lokt

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:51

Depends, I think it's more of a gentleman's agreement between the teams. But does it include passive systems?


I belive the gentlemen´s agreement is for all the F-ducts includeing the passive ones.

I see no point in just banning the driver operated F-ducts and not a passive one.

#35 ktsayshi

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:54

Depends, I think it's more of a gentleman's agreement between the teams. But does it include passive systems?


Safety was cited as the primary reason for the FOTA agreement to make them illegal after the FIA declared them to be within regs (drivers taking both hands off the wheel to work the F-duct and adjust brake bias, etc.). My guess is that a passive system dodges the spirit of the ban pretty effectively.

#36 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:55

I belive the gentlemen´s agreement is for all the F-ducts includeing the passive ones.

I see no point in just banning the driver operated F-ducts and not a passive one.

Why did they decide to ban it? I have two things in memory, but I can't recall which one was the actual reason:
1. driver operated means removing the hand from the steering wheel at great speeds = dangerous
2. the cost of every team trying to duplicate the system

If it's the former I suppose a passive one should be no problem, if it's the latter I think passive ones are also banned.

#37 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:57

An uneducated question if I may: Is there any sense in an f-duct with next years single-deck diffuser?

Edited by Szoelloe, 15 November 2010 - 20:57.


#38 Jackmancer

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:57

How exactly did their passive one work then? From a certain gear or something?

#39 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:58

An uneducated question if I may: Is there any sense in an f-duct with next years single-deck diffuser?

That will make no difference. However the adjustable rear wing might have an impact....

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#40 Szoelloe

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 20:59

ty

#41 Racing Dutchman

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:02

It is not a gentlemen's agreement, it is a rewrite of the FIA rule considering driver interactions on aero.

Don't have the exact lijnk but it was posted in another thread and you can also check the FIA site.

#42 King Six

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:04

Perhaps a more educated question would be what would the single decked diffusers mean for the exhaust blown concept, doesn't it render it useless unless there's something I'm not quite understanding...

#43 Augurk

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:05

It is not a gentlemen's agreement, it is a rewrite of the FIA rule considering driver interactions on aero.

Don't have the exact lijnk but it was posted in another thread and you can also check the FIA site.

That's quite interesting! That would mean passive ones would be allowed, which also seems the spirit of the choice to ban it when I google it. However all I find is that the FOTA have agreed to ban them, nothing about the FIA.

#44 King Six

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:08

Wait...was the Mercedes system even a passive one or was that just a rumour that's ended up being accepted as fact...

http://www.formula1....10/830/758.html



#45 Timstr11

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:15

I belive the gentlemen´s agreement is for all the F-ducts includeing the passive ones.

I see no point in just banning the driver operated F-ducts and not a passive one.

It's not merely a gentlemen's agreement. It will be written into the 2011 FIA rules saying:

With the exception of the parts necessary for the driver adjustable bodywork, any car system, device or procedure which uses driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited from 2011.

It has been elevated to a rule by FIA's WMSC months ago.

#46 ktsayshi

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:25

Wait...was the Mercedes system even a passive one or was that just a rumour that's ended up being accepted as fact...

http://www.formula1....10/830/758.html


The F-duct Merc brought to Turkey was designed to work without driver input, apparently controlled by the yaw of the car. This has been given as one reason why the MGP version has been notoriously touchy in race conditions.

#47 PNSD

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 21:25

Perhaps a more educated question would be what would the single decked diffusers mean for the exhaust blown concept, doesn't it render it useless unless there's something I'm not quite understanding...


Blowing the diffuser will still help alot.

The blown concept will still be adding energy and momentum to the flow, and thats never a bad thing.

#48 King Six

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 22:20

I guess it's not really blowing the diffuser any more though, it's energising air at the lower rear end of the car but as far as the diffuser air below the floor and to the exit/rear wing is concerned would it have much of an impact? Wouldn't the exhausts have to be routed impossibly far behind for it to have any real impact on all of that for 2011.

#49 athlon

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 09:38

Could someone sum-up the current situation with the staff, especially with the race engineers? It's 100% that the Abu Dhabi GP was the last GP for Jock Clear at the pit wall, but will he stay in the team but in another role? Who will Nico get? Tony Ross? And what about Michael and Andrew Shovlin?

#50 SpeedyS

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:41

I will put my 0.5p that Mercedes have a IDEA, LOOPHOLE for 2011. There is a humble confiedence in their interviews that Brawn had at the end of 2008.

Edited by SpeedyS, 16 November 2010 - 10:45.