454 replies to this topic

[David McKinney]

Roger Clark, on Nov 30 2010, 15:03, said:

David McKinney mentions none of this (unless I missed it) but he does say that the 1958 Piccolo was 76mm shorter than the 1957 cars. Is that the LWB or SWB 1957 cars?

I think I would have - or should have* - mentioned that one of the three 1957 lightweight 250Fs had a shorter wheelbase than the others.
My comparison for Piccolo purposes would certainly have been the standard (longer) wb

*Yes I did - p76

I also see I give the wb as 2280-2300mm (p114). I know I checked a lot of sources for that specification and others, but can no longer recall what the sources were...

[Bauble]

D-Type, on Nov 29 2010, 20:52, said:

Why not? All four wheels are parallel and the car is pointing into the corner. Surely that makes it a classic 4-wheel drift. Admittedly not what the younger generation describe as "drifting" - whatever that may be.

Please!!! Roy with arms akimbo cannot possibly be 'drifting', he is simply turning round a corner, as to the difference between a 'powerslide' as depicted at Rouen by El Chueco, and true four wheel drift, of course it matters. They are two different techniques, any fool can hang the back end out on a corner, but to balance all of the forces involved in a pure drift is something very special. I have asked some historic racers of 1950's Grand Prix cars and they have said that it would take a great deal of experience, and longer races, to develop the technique in a car especially when heavy with fuel.

I willingly accept the status of 'anorak' on this matter, as far too many modern journos describe an out of shape back end as a drift, based on what a lot of rather weird orientals do in silly cars.
Each to their own I agree, but you cannot compare excess power with extraordinary skill.

Well it is jus wat I fink. Innit?

[Roger Clark]

I'm not sure how I missed those references in your book!

Would i be correct, then, in assuming 2280mm for all the Tipo 1s and two of the three lightweights, one lightweight at 2200 and the Piccolo 2204mm (76mm shorter), with the V12s a little longer at 3000mm? Presumably the SWB lightweight would be 2528 as that's the one Behra drove most of the year, although Fangio drove it at Monaco which would make sense. I suppose the difference between the Piccolo and 2528 might be a measuring error or imperial/metric conversion at some point.

[cyrilmac]

Mallory this year driven by Martin Stretton



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

A week later the Simon Hadfield driven car



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Edited by cyrilmac, 30 November 2010 - 17:44.

[Alan Cox]

A lovely paddock shot of Godia Sales' car at the 1957 Italian GP, found on a Spanish forum by Odseybod
http://img541.images...anciscosma.jpg/

[Doug Nye]

Re wheelbase lengths, I'm pretty sure I got them direct from Giulio Alfieri in the 1980s when Pete Coltrin and I spent a day with him in Modena. They tallied with some of Cameron Millar's works drawings. I know when I measured wheelbase length on the Donington ex-Volonterio car they differed by about 60-70mm between left side and right. I never expected less...

DCN

[Simon Hadfield]

Alan Cox, on Nov 30 2010, 18:03, said:

A lovely paddock shot of Godia Sales' car at the 1957 Italian GP, found on a Spanish forum by Odseybod
http://img541.images...anciscosma.jpg/

Which is Joachin Folch's car, I think. Sadly the nose shape was lost some years ago and it would be rather nice to reinstate it. (If I am wrong about the car I am sure I will be quickly put right!)

[raceannouncer2003]

The following link is YouTube rather than a photo, and I'm sure it has been posted elsewhere, but still, I think, a related classic:



Vince H.

[David McKinney]

Roger Clark, on Nov 30 2010, 17:13, said:

I'm not sure how I missed those references in your book!

Would i be correct, then, in assuming 2280mm for all the Tipo 1s and two of the three lightweights, one lightweight at 2200 and the Piccolo 2204mm (76mm shorter), with the V12s a little longer at 3000mm? Presumably the SWB lightweight would be 2528 as that's the one Behra drove most of the year, although Fangio drove it at Monaco which would make sense. I suppose the difference between the Piccolo and 2528 might be a measuring error or imperial/metric conversion at some point.

Without going back through all my source material (which certainly would have included DCN's), I can only agree that you're probably right

[David McKinney]

Bauble, on Nov 30 2010, 17:12, said:

Please!!! Roy with arms akimbo cannot possibly be 'drifting', he is simply turning round a corner, as to the difference between a 'powerslide' as depicted at Rouen by El Chueco, and true four wheel drift, of course it matters. They are two different techniques, any fool can hang the back end out on a corner, but to balance all of the forces involved in a pure drift is something very special. I have asked some historic racers of 1950's Grand Prix cars and they have said that it would take a great deal of experience, and longer races, to develop the technique in a car especially when heavy with fuel.

I willingly accept the status of 'anorak' on this matter, as far too many modern journos describe an out of shape back end as a drift, based on what a lot of rather weird orientals do in silly cars.
Each to their own I agree, but you cannot compare excess power with extraordinary skill.

Well it is jus wat I fink. Innit?

I've said something similar on this forum, though perhaps not so vehemently expressed, so many times that I just couldn't be bothered doing it again

The youngsters will continue to say we're wrong

Incidentally, some years ago, whilst standing on the inside of the right-hander at the end of Stebbe Straight at Mallory Park, I was amazed to see two T51 Bugattis entering the bend in perfect four-wheel drifts

Edited by David McKinney, 30 November 2010 - 20:30.

[elansprint72]

Oulton Park VSCC, June 2007.

[Alan Cox]

Simon Hadfield, on Nov 30 2010, 18:52, said:

Which is Joachin Folch's car, I think. Sadly the nose shape was lost some years ago and it would be rather nice to reinstate it. (If I am wrong about the car I am sure I will be quickly put right!)

I'm sure you're correct, Simon, in which case it would be 2524. Mr McKinney's book tells us that it was rebodied in mid-1957 (would that be after its accident at Pau?) when, presumably, it acquired the sleek nose evident in the Monza pic, but it currently wears bodywork based on its earlier incarnation, I think.

[David McKinney]

The car was badly damaged by Phil Cade in the US in the early '60s, and not rebuilt until the late '80s. The present body dates from that time

[elansprint72]

Quote from post #1: With various photos of 250Fs appearing on the 250F driver thread, I thought it might be appropriate to begin a thread dedicated solely to photographs of the car throughout its long racing history, rather than clog up the discussion about those who have driven it.

Is it me?

[onelung]

Imperfect four wheel drift...
[Still the bleedin' maestro, however
Near perfect four wheel drift...

[David McKinney]

Having read earlier posts, you will know that neither is a four-wheel drift, imperfect or otherwise

The second is close, as the four wheels are almost in parallel

And in both cases the Maestro maybe be in the throes of setting up a four-wheel drift - had the shutter been clicked a split-second later the four wheels may indeed have been in parallel

[Bauble]

I wonder, in order to keep elansprint, David McK and myself happy, would some kind soul with the neccesary expertise and resources post a picture of Moss, Fangio, et al, in a proper drift?

I address this request to some of the more ancient TNF types who know what a drift looks like.

THANK YOY.

Bob

[Roger Clark]

David McKinney, on Dec 1 2010, 06:56, said:

Having read earlier posts, you will know that neither is a four-wheel drift, imperfect or otherwise

The second is close, as the four wheels are almost in parallel

And in both cases the Maestro maybe be in the throes of setting up a four-wheel drift - had the shutter been clicked a split-second later the four wheels may indeed have been in parallel

i didn't know that having the wheels parallel was a prerequisite of a four wheel drift. As i understand it, the technique was first developed in the late '30s when the German Grand Prix cars were first designed with inherent understeer, albeit with sufficient power to overcome it of course. to quote Pomeroy: "..in 1938/39 the arrival of understeering cars made it possible to get into the four-wheel drift which became general practice in the 'fifties. In this case, the driver slowed the car on the straight, gave a little kick to the tail by twitching the steering wheel so that the car got across the road, and then by laying on enough throttle to degrade the cornering power of the rear tyres without provoking wheelspin, he could take the whole car round, say a right-hand curve, with the nose facing very much into the corner but with no wheels actually skidding." (Design and Behaviour of the Racing Car, page 210).

This technique required a car which understeered at the limit of cornering power with no other forces acting on it. Most grand Prix cars from the late '30s to the mid-'50s were designed this way. THe 1955 version of the Mercedes W196 was designed to oversteer at the limit and Fangio and Moss developed a new technique where they applied power at the critical point to increase the cornering power of the rear tyres to the level of the fronts. This differs from the four-wheel drift as described by Pomeroy, because power was used to increase cornering power of the rear tyres, not to reduce it. The 250F always had final oversteer characteristics but it was only in 1957 that it had sufficient power to use the technique.All this, including the forces acting on the wheels that made it possible, is described in Denis Jenkinson's "The Racing Driver", from page 159.

That's my understanding of the techniques, but I may be wrong.

[Allan Lupton]

Bauble, on Dec 1 2010, 10:05, said:

I wonder, in order to keep elansprint, David McK and myself happy, would some kind soul with the neccesary expertise and resources post a picture of Moss, Fangio, et al, in a proper drift?
Bob

Well there is the famous Kemantaski photo of Hawthorn in the Cooper - the slip angles of front and rear tyres are the same so it has the desired zero steering lock, but that is because the weight distribution, tyre sizes and suspension characteristics result in equal slip angles being required. Other cars, as has been said in other words, may still drift but if the slip angles required are different front/rear some steering lock (positive or opposite) is needed to achieve that but it's still a four-wheel drift if it is a stable condition

[Bauble]

Thank you Allan,
The Hawthorn shot is the perfect example, I had a copy of this cut from the Autocar on my bedroom wall. I have always thought it one of the greatest motor racing photos of all time.

Of course many of the younger set will assume that Klem was run over after taking the picture!!

elansprint, it is difficult to print pictures of the 250F without SOME discussion of the drivers technique or ability, but I do agree witht the thrust of your post. Topics often drift from the original start point and can slide into different areas, but we are powerless to stop it.

Regards,

Bob.

Edited by Bauble, 01 December 2010 - 10:09.

[D-Type]

Bauble, on Dec 1 2010, 12:09, said:

Thank you Allan,
The Hawthorn shot is the perfect example, I had a copy of this cut from the Autocar on my bedroom wall. I have always thought it one of the greatest motor racing photos of all time.

Of course many of the younger set will assume that Klem was run over after taking the picture!!

elansprint, it is difficult to print pictures of the 250F without SOME discussion of the drivers technique or ability, but I do agree witht the thrust of your post. Topics often drift from the original start point and can slide into different areas, but we are powerless to stop it.

Regards,

Bob.

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

From memory it's something like "How I didn't run Klemantaski down is a mystery to me"

Edited by D-Type, 01 December 2010 - 14:39.

[Tim Murray]

Your memory is pretty damn close, Duncan:

Quote

Why Klemantaski was not run down by my Cooper-Bristol we shall never know.

[kayemod]

D-Type, on Dec 1 2010, 15:36, said:

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

From memory it's something like "How I didn't run Klemantaski down is a mystery to me"

Very close, it's "Why Klemantaski was not run down by my Cooper-Bristol we shall never know".

[kayemod]

My God! You have to be quick on this forum.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry Rob - I know how frustrating it is when that happens.

[Roger Clark]

D-Type, on Dec 1 2010, 14:36, said:

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

From memory it's something like "How I didn't run Klemantaski down is a mystery to me"

Klemantaski wrote in his own autobiography that Hawthorn later told him that he almost put him off his stride, he was standing so close to the edge of the track.

[Bauble]

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

Goodness gracious me! Someone who does not own a copy of 'Challenge Me The Race'! Incroyable!

[bradbury west]

I thought the attitude of the second car here was rather pleasing at Woodcote, from a batch of negatives bought c/w copyright from an estate. I am not sure when it was, 70s or 80s, but the lead driver looks rather like Charles Lucas, and in another shot also.

Roger Lund. Copyright Roger Lund

[David McKinney]

Green Willie in the Bamford Piccolo ahead I would think

Hard to pick out the other one

[cyrilmac]

elansprint72, on Nov 30 2010, 23:18, said:

Quote from post #1: With various photos of 250Fs appearing on the 250F driver thread, I thought it might be appropriate to begin a thread dedicated solely to photographs of the car throughout its long racing history, rather than clog up the discussion about those who have driven it.

Is it me?

No . I'm with you.

[D-Type]

I partially agree.

Photos plus information related to the photos, including identifying cars and drivers.

But not further divergence like my reason for not having a copy of Challenge me the Race which is because my mum threw it out when she moved house.

[kayemod]

D-Type, on Dec 1 2010, 22:14, said:

I partially agree.



But not further divergence like my reason for not having a copy of Challenge me the Race which is because my mum threw it out when she moved house.

I suspect that my mum did exactly the same, though she always blamed the removal men, one of whom must have been a 50s racing fan. Whatever, I found a very nice replacement a few years ago on eBay, a sensibly priced first edition with good DW. It's an excellent book, well-written, and it really captures the spirit of the times.

[RShaw]

Zora Arkus-Duntov in Maserati 250F at Meadowdale in Sept. 1959

[wenoopy]

Bauble, on Dec 2 2010, 08:33, said:

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

The caption was : "Why Klemantaski was not run down by my Cooper-Bristol we shall never Know".

Somewhere there is also a similar picture of Stirling Moss with the caption "Moss versus Klemantaski", but my brief search did not find it. Books of the Maserati 250F era have plenty of 'power slide / four-wheel drift' pictures. DSJ's "The Racing Driver" and a couple of Stirling Moss books, for example.

[wenoopy]

Bauble, on Dec 2 2010, 08:33, said:

Can somebody with a copy of Challenge me the Race tell us what Mike's caption to this picture was?

The caption was : "Why Klemantaski was not run down by my Cooper-Bristol we shall never know".

Somewhere there is also a similar picture of Stirling Moss with the caption "Moss versus Klemantaski", but my brief search did not find it. Books of the Maserati 250F era have plenty of 'power slide / four-wheel drift' pictures. DSJ's "The Racing Driver" and a couple of Stirling Moss books, for example.

FOUND IT! "Salvadori versus Klemantaski. "The Racing Coopers" (Arthur Owen). (I was Wrong again!)

[Alan Cox]

Would somebody like to start a thread about "When is a drift not a drift?"...

PS Interesting photo of Zora Arkus-Duntov, Ron. Do you have any more?

Edited by Alan Cox, 01 December 2010 - 23:49.

[Barry Boor]

No, please, no!!!!

[fnqvmuch]

Barry Boor, on Dec 2 2010, 09:48, said:

No, please, no!!!!

you don't have to go there if you feel like that, but i could use a bit more clarification ...
- in respect of this thread;

[elansprint72]

Bauble, on Dec 2 2010, 09:29, said:

................
I concur with those who feel that as well as pictures of 250F Maseratis, a discussion of the various driving styles and personalities that drove them in their heyday is warranted.

NOTE to elansprint;

If you wish to post your picture of an old Ford skidding on some mud I can advise that this is the ideal place to do it ........ if you want to be chief guest at a necktie party!
As John Wayne might have said.

Let's keep it friendly he said vehemently.

Kind regards to all.

BB

There was already a discussion thread on that very subject, which is why Alan started this photo thread! See my post #164.

As for my Ford comment; I see that irony is not something with which not everyone is familiar.

Who's being unfriendly?

[RShaw]

Ref: Zora Arkus-Duntov & Maserati 250F at Meadowdale photo
Question from Alan Cox: "PS Interesting photo of Zora Arkus-Duntov, Ron. Do you have any more?"

Sorry, no, that is the only photo I have of the Duntov ride in the Camoradi 250F. The car did not do well, having suffered engine damage in practice, then driven slowly by Duntov (no chance of a four-wheel drift) in the first heat, then replaced by Paul O'Shea in the second, where it was further damaged by a crash.

Ron Shaw

[David McKinney]

Went better at its previous appearance, with Mr Daigh at Lime Rock

[raceannouncer2003]

Eric Dunsdon, on Nov 23 2010, 02:20, said:

Vince. Are you sure that the driver is Peter Collins?. The reason I ask is that Ken Wharton drove the Owen-Maserati number 8 in the 1954 British Grand Prix. If it is Peter, then it could be from the 1955 London Trophy Race at Crystal Palace (which he won).

Here is the photo I mentioned before:



Vince H.

[David McKinney]

I thinks that's actually ace driver Ken Wharton in the 1954 British Grand Prix

[Eric Dunsdon]

David McKinney, on Dec 3 2010, 08:29, said:

I thinks that's actually ace driver Ken Wharton in the 1954 British Grand Prix

It looks like Peter at Crystal Palace in 1955 to me. Approaching South Tower Corner.

[Bauble]

Eric Dunsdon, on Dec 3 2010, 09:10, said:

It looks like Peter at Crystal Palace in 1955 to me. Approaching South Tower Corner.

Looks a lot like Peter to me - AND it is rarely wise to disagree with Eric on such matters. Take my word for it.

[wenoopy]

David McKinney, on Dec 3 2010, 20:29, said:

I thinks that's actually ace driver Ken Wharton in the 1954 British Grand Prix

"Unless I'm very much mistaken", the car has disc brakes. This would date the photo as being after the 1954 British GP, as according to DSJ the Dunlop disc brakes and wheels were not on the car until the Swiss GP. (after the chassis-swap with Bira's car etc etc..)

[Barry Boor]

That little bit of background that can be seen doesn't look like anything at either Silverstone or Aintree. Palace? Yes, I would think more likely.

[David McKinney]

If it's the Palace it must be a libre race

The only time the Owen car was No.8 in an F1 race was the 1954 British GP, hence my post above

However, further research shows that Collins carried that number in the London Trophy libre race on 30 May 1955 so I'll shut up...

[Barry Boor]

I hope you don't!

[Eric Dunsdon]

David McKinney, on Dec 3 2010, 12:18, said:

If it's the Palace it must be a libre race

The only time the Owen car was No.8 in an F1 race was the 1954 British GP, hence my post above

However, further research shows that Collins carried that number in the London Trophy libre race on 30 May 1955 so I'll shut up...

It was a Libre race David....My pal Bauble and I were there at South Tower cheering Peter Collins to victory. As O.R.M.A. members we felt that we had a few bob invested in that 250F!.