62 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

This gentleman drove a Maserati in the 1959 Aintree 200 but I can't seem to find out anything about him other than that he was Masten Gregory's brother-in-law.

Can anyone add anything?

[arttidesco]

Never heard of him before but he seems to have driven a variety of sports cars with varying degrees of success including a Maserati 300S.

[Jerry Entin]

Dale Duncan was a Kansas City-based commercial airline pilot. In the U.S. he raced various cars including his own Jaguars and Ferraris, as well as A.V. Dayton's Maserati 300S.

After his divorce he moved to Houston where he raced Ferraris for his friend Big Jim Hall.

all research: Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 November 2010 - 18:10.

[Barry Boor]

Thank you, Gerry, that helps a lot. The Kansas City connection confirms, to a degree, the truth of the Masten connection.

I wonder if he is mentioned in Mike Cox's book on Masten.

[Tim Murray]

I wonder if he is mentioned in Mike Cox's book on Masten.

He is indeed, Barry. He apparently played a significant role in getting Masten involved in racing. There's also a great story about Dale and Masten winding up the local plod by fooling them into thinking that Masten was driving Dale's Allard through Kansas City (when he was banned from driving) and pouncing on him gleefully, only to find that the car was right-hand drive and being driven by Dale.

He also gets a passing mention in a number of earlier threads, including this gem from the 'On this day in motorsport history' thread:

January 24,

(etc)

1954, Dale Duncan puts out a fire in his Allard's engine compartment during the 1000 kilometer endurance race in Buenos Aires, Argentina, by urinating on it. His co-driver, Carroll Shelby,
had thrown the fire extinguisher out of the car to save weight. They would finish tenth. Shelby's driving skills were noticed by John Wyer, who would later hire him to drive for Aston Martin. (Typical Carroll...) Am I correct in finding that Maston Gregory shared the win in that Argentine 1000km event with Eugenio Castelloti and Luigi Musso?

(etc)

Edited by Tim Murray, 22 November 2010 - 16:19.

[Jerry Entin]

Dale and Betty Duncan in 1955

When Dale Duncan wasn't flying for Braniff Airlines, he could often be found in the winner's circle, like here at Kansas City on September 1955. The car is A.V. Dayton's 4.5 Ferrari, the girl his wife Betty, who was the sister of Gregory's first wife.

all research: Willem Oosthoek
photo: Willem Oosthoek collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 November 2010 - 18:57.

[Jerry Entin]

Sebring 1958, drivers Mike Hawthorn, Briggs Cunningham and Dale Duncan waiting for the start
The fellow on the ground resting is Phil Hill.

Dale Duncan drove the Blue #7 Maserati 300S of A.V. Dayton

all research Willem Oosthoek
photo: Willem Oosthoek collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 22 November 2010 - 19:33.

[David McKinney]

The car is A.V. Dayton's 4.5 Ferrari

Wasn't that the car Gregory raced in Europe in 1954?

[Jerry Entin]

David:

It is the same Ferrari: the 4.5-liter 375MM, chassis 0370. Gregory sold it to A.V. Dayton, who sold it to A.D. Logan early in 1957. A.D. Logan sold it to Dean Knight later in 1957.

all research Willem Oosthoek

[Sharman]

Any connection between A.V.Dayton and modern historic driver Duncan?

[Barry Boor]

I wondered that, too.

[Jerry Entin]

A.V. Dayton was an Oklahoma-based manufacturer of electrical and seismographic equipment for the oil and gas industry. We have no idea if he is in any way related to modern day driver Duncan Dayton.


all research: Willem Oosthoek

[Barry Boor]

I guess that Masten's connections to Centro Sud in previous years paved the way for his brother-in-law to get the drive at Aintree.

Not surprising that he never got another.

[Tim Murray]

Sadly, there's no mention of Dale Duncan's Aintree drive in Totally Fearless.

It seems unlikely that there's any close family connection between A.V. and Duncan Dayton. According to this profile of Dayton, he grew up in Minneapolis, his father Ken being CEO of the retail empire now known as Target.

[Jerry Entin]

Unlike Gregory [who did not need one YET], Duncan had a regular day job. Any Formula One adventures in Europe must have taken place on vacation time and as a result, unlikely to be repeated.

Didn't Duncan test a 250F in Modena around that time?

all research: Willem Oosthoek

[Jerry Entin]

And of course by early 1960 Dale Duncan ceased to be Masten Gregory's brother-in-law. That is when Luella Gregory filed for divorce claiming "extreme cruelty". She asked for the Kansas City family home, $500 per month in alimony, $1,000 per month in child support [four kids] and a half-interest in stock and other properties.

Not sure if all her demands were met, but Masten avoided visiting Kansas City for quite a while. At the time his annual income was estimated to be over $50,000 by Luella.

all research: Willem Oosthoek

[David McKinney]

Didn't Duncan test a 250F in Modena around that time?

Haven't hard that, though it's perfectly believable
Perhaps he signed up for the Centro-Sud school?

[Jerry Entin]

Since Duncan raced a variety of competition cars for almost a decade, I doubt that he would have signed up for the Centro-Sud drivers school. I think it was the kind of visit that Lance Reventlow and Bruce Kessler paid in 1957, testing a number of the Trident cars. Maserati was always eager to please visitors from America.

Incidentally, Gordon Pennington went through the same thing while visiting Modena. He was invited to test a Maserati sportsracer with Bertocchi in the passenger seat.

all research: Willem Oosthoek

Edited by Jerry Entin, 24 November 2010 - 02:01.

[Barry Boor]

Thank you, Jerry. Thank you, Jerry.

We certainly have catalogued Mr. Duncan's racing career. Let's hope anyone else searching for this driver comes upon this thread.

BTW, why is he not on Darren's F.1 Driver information list?

[David McKinney]

Is it limited to WDC drivers?

(Most website seem to be)

[Barry Boor]

Good point, David, but then he should have shown up in the Others section - but he doesn't.

[Rupertlt1]

Caddo Mills, Texas, 5 July 1952

Dale Duncan, Allard-Chrysler "stock except for manifold and carburetors." 2nd to Charlie Brown, Monroe, Louisiana, bronze Cad-Allard, after leading initially. Described as from Topeka, Kansas Region. (He was born there.)

Okmulgee Airport, Oklahoma, Sunday 31 August 1952

Winner in the feature 20-lap race. "The Allard was virtually without competition as all other Allards were crippled with mechanical trouble." "Clarence Talley, Dallas sports car dealer, drove the top Jaguar in the long race."

"In a six-lap contest for cars over

1500 centimeters (approxi-

mately 90 square inches), Carol (sic)

Shelby, Dallas, drove Tom Gray's

speedy Jaguar to victory. Sonney

Nold, Wichita, also driving a Jag-

uar, was second.

Caddo Mills, Texas, 23 November 1952 

1. Carroll Shelby, Dallas, Cadillac-Allard J2 (according to Rinsey Mills the car of Charlie Brown)

2. Jim Hall, Houston, Jaguar

3. George Koehne, Carswell AFB, Jaguar

4. Dale Duncan, Kansas City, Chrysler-Allard

In the under-1,500-C.C. race,

Bob Samuelson of Dallas won in

a modified MG.

 

See also: https://forums.autos...2#entry10711603

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 03 September 2024 - 06:53.

[rudi]

The SCS cars driven by Dale Duncan Aintree 1959 04.18.

[Doug Nye]

With the older photos now lost from this site, I believe (but am not certain) that this is Dale Duncan in the Temple Buell Maserati 450S at Caracas 1957 - attended on left by Guarino 'Guerrino' Bertocchi, Maserati's long-time chief mechanic...and, as he would always emphatically assert, "the fastest man around the Modena track - Moss?  Fangio? Behra?  

 

"Nah!  

 

"Io!" - thumping his big muscular right thumb into his chest.  Bless 'Im...

 

DCN

 

Photo:  Copyright: The Revs Digital Library

 

[/url]

Edited by Doug Nye, 07 April 2025 - 20:43.

[WINO]

Nope, that is Masten Gregory, his family member by marriage, in the cockpit. Dale is the one leaning in, next to Bertocchi. Glad you spelled his nickname as Guerrino, as it should be spelled, unlike the version used by present day historians.

Edited by WINO, 07 April 2025 - 21:49.

[WINO]

At Caracas in 1957 Duncan was assigned to be Gregory's co-driver, but since Masten overturned the Buell 470S on the second lap, Dale never got to drive the car in the race itself.

 

As for the nickname Guerrino, it was given to Bertocchi at a young age by his mom. It means little warrior, a reflection of being perceived as a very busy child.

[Doug Nye]

Good Lord - Masten without his specs, now I recognise him.  As for Bertocchi, I had the pleasure of having a long interview with him for 'Motor' magazine in Modena in 1981. We - Pete Coltrin and I - met him at De Tomaso's where he was then working in the test and customer demonstration department.  

 

A few weeks after our meeting Pete rang me and told me that Bertocchi - veteran as riding mechanic of 13 Mille Miglia races, and of riding with Alfieri Maserati in the Targa Florio as far back as 1926 - had just been killed in a road accident, while passenger alongside a prospective buyer in a brand-new demonstrator.  They had just met a half-hour or so before, and had set off for that demo drive.  He was 73.

 

The inadequate driver survived...

 

DCN

[d j fox]

Sorry for joining in so late but Dale Duncan was nominated to drive the Scuderia Centro Sud Maserati 300S in the Aintree 200 Sports Cars over 1100cc.
However, his place was taken by Hermano da Silva Ramos who started 26th ( no result)

Dale Duncan drove a Centro Sud 250F in the "200" along with da Silva Ramos in a sister car

Source "A Record of Motor Racing at Aintree" Graham Heath and John Lawson

Edited by d j fox, 08 April 2025 - 21:05.

[WINO]

Et l'histoire se repete. A number of years after Guerrino Bertocchi's unfortunate demise due to an incompetent customer driver, the same happened to his son, Aurelio Bertocchi. Also employed by DeTomaso at the time, Aurelio lost his life on the public road as well. He was a passenger during a trial run with a potential Maserati client at the wheel.

[Tim Murray]

(posted on behalf of Willem Oosthoek; his words follow)

Sebring, March 1958. Dale Duncan at the wheel of the Maserati 300S owned by A.V. Dayton of Tulsa, Oklahoma. His co-drivers were Joakim Bonnier and Jack Hinkle. The car ran as high as 8th overall after five hours, then retired due to gearbox woes with 90 laps completed. Hinkle, who never got to drive, blamed the rough gear changes by Bonnier for their retirement.

[JoBo]

With the older photos now lost from this site, I believe (but am not certain) that this is Dale Duncan in the Temple Buell Maserati 450S at Caracas 1957 - attended on left by Guarino 'Guerrino' Bertocchi, Maserati's long-time chief mechanic...and, as he would always emphatically assert, "the fastest man around the Modena track - Moss?  Fangio? Behra?  

 

"Nah!  

 

"Io!" - thumping his big muscular right thumb into his chest.  Bless 'Im...

 

DCN

 

Photo:  Copyright: The Revs Digital Library

 

[/url]

Doug,

 

Sorry, but I have to correct you: the correct spelling of Bertocchi`s first name is GUERINO and NOT Guerrino and NOT Guarino. Furthermore the name Guerino was not a nickname.

 

All this is can proof as I have a copy of the death notice for him ("Cavaliere Guerino Bertocchi" - 20.10.1907 - 13.4.1981), signed by his son Aurelio Bertocchi - unlike the version used by present day US-historians.........

Edited by JoBo, 15 April 2025 - 09:56.

[WINO]

But Walti/Coco/JoBo [which one is it again?], wouldn't a birth certificate for Guarino Bertocchi have given you a better argument, rather than a document signed by a grief-stricken Aurelio for a dad who went by Guarino for 73 years of his life? Italian civil servants are known to make spelling errors.

Edited by WINO, 15 April 2025 - 13:06.

[ReWind]

It seems the birth certificate was shown to the makers of MotorsportMemorial who give his real name as Guarino and his birth date as 29 (not 20) October.

[JoBo]

But Walti/Coco/JoBo [which one is it again?], wouldn't a birth certificate for Guarino Bertocchi have given you a better argument, rather than a document signed by a grief-stricken Aurelio for a dad who went by Guarino for 73 years of his life? Italian civil servants are known to make spelling errors.

This is an assumption by you! I am pretty sure that the family -in this case directly from them and not from civil servants- gives on a death notice a correct spelling of the name! 

Also the Italian book QUELLI DEI BOX E DINTORINI by Romano Biolchini, a book about most of all Ferrari- and Maserati mechanics, clearly state GUERINO Bertocchi.

Furthermore, also Ermanno Cozza, who worked under Bertocchi in the 1950s and became later the Maserati archivist, wrote in his book MASERATI AT HEART the name GUERINO.

Then, I have an original letter from Orsi to Temple Buell about the factory support of his 450S in Cuba and he wrote "...our team together with mechanic GUERINO Bertocchi will arrive...."

So...?

[WINO]

All involved referred to Bertocchi by his nickname. Most wrote his nickname as Guerrino, some [incorrectly, even at the factory] as Guerino. But his mom's "little warrior" term is correctly spelled in Italian as Guerrino. And as for his official first name, which is the main issue here, based on his birth certificate....... Guarino. Doug is absolutely right.

 

To further enlighten you, Guerrino is derived from the word guerra [war in Italian]. It is never spelled guera of course.

 

With your mix-up, it seems you are confusing Bertocchi's official first name with the [grammatically incorrect] version of his nickname.

Edited by WINO, 15 April 2025 - 18:40.

[JoBo]

All involved referred to Bertocchi by his nickname. Most wrote his nickname as Guerrino, some [incorrectly, even at the factory] as Guerino. But his mom's "little warrior" term is correctly spelled in Italian as Guerrino. And as for his official first name, which is the main issue here, based on his birth certificate....... Guarino. Doug is absolutely right.

 

To further enlighten you, Guerrino is derived from the word guerra [war in Italian]. It is never spelled guera of course.

 

With your mix-up, it seems you are confusing Bertocchi's official first name with the [grammatically incorrect] version of his nickname.

So then all (!) Italian sources I referred to are wrong...???? Really? No comment anymore from my side.................

[Nick Planas]

As one of several family history nerds posting on this site, let me just mention casually the following observations:

 

Certificates are transcriptions written down by a registrar listening to a person passing them information - nowadays in the UK they are double checked but we don't know whether that was always the case.

 

A Birth Certificate is not proof of birth, it's just proof that someone registered a birth. Parents often don't know how to spell their favourite name (I have a couple of pupils with unusual spellings because of this!)

 

People often change their names during their life: For example. my father was registered in New York with just his first and last names, but he was given a middle name at baptism. His parents always called him by his middle name but they separated, and then his mother was killed, and he dropped the middle name as soon as he could, however he kept his middle initial on his bank details only. His passport just gave his first and last names. Professionally he was known by a shortened version of his name (as is our esteemed fellow TNFer Mr Nye)

 

I am universally known by my shortened name because I hate the long version with a passion - but one of my credit card companies insists on using my full legal name. They, the lovely tax people, and the health service, are the only ones who use it.

 

A Death Certificate for an older person is usually completed by someone who didn't know the person for much of their life (e.g. my parents were 35 years older than me) and things such as Date of Birth, maiden name(s), etc can easily be misremembered / mistaken.

 

Just sayin'

[Doug Nye]

I have only just this moment noticed the minor conflict expressed here.  As far as I can recall 'Guarino' and 'Guerrino' were confirmed to me by Pete Coltrin when I ran material past him some time after my/our interview with the man in question, Pete having long before Bertocchi's tragic death been told the story about his mum's nickname for him.

 

'Guerrino' as Willem points out has the same root as 'guerrilla' fighter.  In context that would not be the case without good reason.  Regardless, I am pretty confident we know the personality being referred to whether it's expressed Joakim, Joachim, Joaquin, Jochen, Willem, William, Bill, Billy, Doug, Dougal or Doughnut...  Relax.

 

DCN

[Balltom]

As one of several family history nerds posting on this site, let me just mention casually the following observations:

 

Certificates are transcriptions written down by a registrar listening to a person passing them information - nowadays in the UK they are double checked but we don't know whether that was always the case.

 

A Birth Certificate is not proof of birth, it's just proof that someone registered a birth. Parents often don't know how to spell their favourite name (I have a couple of pupils with unusual spellings because of this!)

 

People often change their names during their life: For example. my father was registered in New York with just his first and last names, but he was given a middle name at baptism. His parents always called him by his middle name but they separated, and then his mother was killed, and he dropped the middle name as soon as he could, however he kept his middle initial on his bank details only. His passport just gave his first and last names. Professionally he was known by a shortened version of his name (as is our esteemed fellow TNFer Mr Nye)

 

I am universally known by my shortened name because I hate the long version with a passion - but one of my credit card companies insists on using my full legal name. They, the lovely tax people, and the health service, are the only ones who use it.

 

A Death Certificate for an older person is usually completed by someone who didn't know the person for much of their life (e.g. my parents were 35 years older than me) and things such as Date of Birth, maiden name(s), etc can easily be misremembered / mistaken.

 

Just sayin'

As a fellow ‘family history nerd’ Nick has provided a very good digest of the pitfalls of believing information on birth and, even more, on death certificates.

 

As an aside, it is rather disappointing that the above minor squabble has not been conducted with more good grace.

[WINO]

".... we know the personality being referred to, whether it's expressed Joakim, Joachim, Joaquin,....."

 

I understand where you are coming from, Doug. But when I read about a race driver by the name of Sterling Moss [sometimes seen in the US], I know whom the writer is referring to, but I wonder if the writer actually knows much about his subject.

 

Same with the "official" name Guerino Bertocchi.

[Sterzo]

Isn't it appropriate that a man so involved in 250F chassis numbers should be known by three different spellings?

[rudi]

Sport Auto May 1962

Probably the accent was too much but so french...

[Nick Planas]

... But when I read about a race driver by the name of Sterling Moss [sometimes seen in the US], I know whom the writer is referring to, but I wonder if the writer actually knows much about his subject.

 

 

Didn't Sterling Moss race against Damien Hill's father? 

[ensign14]

Yes, but not against Stirling Marlin.

[WINO]

But Stirling Marlin can still show off a full head of hair, something Sterling Moss could never claim. And as for Damien Hill's father, he even shared some rides with Sterling.

[WINO]

All kidding aside, I have a book titled The Sebring Story. Published in 1969, it was written by Alec Ulmann, the man who made the Sebring 12 Hours possible. A very enjoyable read with lots of inside information, often not covered by the press at the time.

 

But there is only one issue I have with the text. Yes, Ulmann keeps calling Stirling........  Sterling! After all of Moss's stellar appearances at Sebring, Ulmann should have known better.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Stirling!

[ensign14]

 

But there is only one issue I have with the text. Yes, Ulmann keeps calling Stirling........  Sterling! After all of Moss's stellar appearances at Sebring, Ulmann should have known better.

Presumably that was down to a "helpful" sub-editor/proofer who zealously corrected an obvious repeated mistake...

[Tim Murray]

(more from Willem Oosthoek)

Back to the subject of this thread: Dale Duncan. In December 1959 Duncan made an excellent getaway in the Nassau Trophy feature. It would be his final appearance in a Maserati 300S, chassis 3083 with race number 24, seen next to Phil Hill's #4 Testa Rossa. Alas, Dale's ride lasted only 3 laps, after which he was forced to retire.

[JoBo]

(more from Willem Oosthoek)

Back to the subject of this thread: Dale Duncan. In December 1959 Duncan made an excellent getaway in the Nassau Trophy feature. It would be his final appearance in a Maserati 300S, chassis 3083 with race number 24, seen next to Phil Hill's #4 Testa Rossa. Alas, Dale's ride lasted only 3 laps, after which he was forced to retire.

No 24 is Dale Duncan in a Ferrari 290MM #0616 (http://www.barchetta.../0616.290mm.htm) (https://www.racingsp...Duncan-USA.html) and not in a Maserati 300S! No Maserati 300S had a filler cap in the headrest!

Edited by JoBo, 18 April 2025 - 00:10.