24317 replies to this topic

[tifosiMac]

I feel like a bad parent who has given their child a extra chocolate bar or bought them a toy in the supermarket to keep them quiet regardless of what I think..

[trogggy]

tifosiMac, on Jan 6 2012, 22:40, said:

To be honest I'm pretty much done with this now. Lets just say Button has developed into a faster better driver than Hamilton since joining McLaren and be done with it. Its all gravy, and I can move on to better threads with discussion that covers a topic that really matters. I know trogggy that you're not here to bash Hamilton or anything like it, but I'm sick of answering in general now. I could argue this point further but it makes no difference to how I view them as drivers and thats all that matters really.

This faster thing is silly. We're almost at the point with some people now where JB is apparently better at everything. It's the reverse of the position some LH fans were assuming 12 months ago, where LH had nothing to learn and there weren't any areas where JB was better.
To me at least it's pretty clear that LH has the edge in ultimate pace.

[krea]

"ultimate pace" is the new "raw talent"? A no-argument, so some people can still say Hamilton is the better driver even Button is VWDC.

[trogggy]

krea, on Jan 6 2012, 23:45, said:

"ultimate pace" is the new "raw talent"? A no-argument, so some people can still say Hamilton is the better driver even Button is VWDC.

Ah yes, sorry, forgot I was wearing my Hamilton uberfanboy hat tonight.

[theTruth]

"Ultimate pace," "raw talent," "intellect," "racing instinct:" Whatever you call it, on balance, I rate them even steven. How could it be otherwise? And so it shall remain, until things start to shake out in R1. But kudos for upholding LH's honor!

[Wi000]

tifosiMac, on Jan 6 2012, 23:27, said:

I feel like a bad parent who has given their child a extra chocolate bar or bought them a toy in the supermarket to keep them quiet regardless of what I think..

Oh boy I really hope you joke about parenting because if you can't spare a few pound for Sky_F1 the last thing you can afford is starting a family.

[trogggy]

Wi000, on Jan 7 2012, 01:25, said:

Oh boy I really hope you joke about parenting because if you can't spare a few pound for Sky_F1 the last thing you can afford is starting a family.

I genuinely haven't disliked a post as much as that one for months.

[gricey1981]

To me it seems Hamilton has got more pace thats why he trounces Button in Qualifying.

Jenson still isnt slow but he was much better at racing last year.

Had Hamilton not crashed into Massa 100 times and Button not crashed into him in Canada it would have been very different.

Button has not got all of sudden faster or anything.

[TallyHo]

gricey1981, on Jan 7 2012, 01:09, said:

To me it seems Hamilton has got more pace thats why he trounces Button in Qualifying.

Jenson still isnt slow but he was much better at racing last year.

Had Hamilton not crashed into Massa 100 times and Button not crashed into him in Canada it would have been very different.

Button has not got all of sudden faster or anything.

Agreed, Qualy is JBs biggest weakness, Hamilton just pulls that little bit extra out in qualy. If JB manages to sort his qualy out this year, which i believe he can because there wasn't that much between them last year, then i feel an even bigger pasting coming Lewis' way.

Also, what was Hamilton doing occupying the same piece of Tarmac as Massa? If you look back at any GP where Lewis had contact with Massa, you'd see that JB was off into the distance before those two decided to play bumper cars.

[theTruth]

I'm thinking there are hundreds if not thousands of relevant variables, and each driver can only control a few of them at best. Because of the combination of: how the new car responds to inputs; how the new tires respond to racing; what is unknown about how race-to-race technical decision-making will play out; and a host of other factors, will Lewis always be able to perform at or near his absolute best each race? If he can, then I think there are few, if any, on the grid who are his equal. I'm just not sure that's what we are going to see every race though. That's what I'm hoping for, but obviously, no one knows at this stage, not even the principals involved, but I'm certainly still 100% confident in Lewis.

[Lazy]

Wi000, on Jan 7 2012, 00:25, said:

Oh boy I really hope you joke about parenting because if you can't spare a few pound for Sky_F1 the last thing you can afford is starting a family.

Classy as your avatar.

[tifosiMac]

Wi000, on Jan 6 2012, 23:25, said:

Oh boy I really hope you joke about parenting because if you can't spare a few pound for Sky_F1 the last thing you can afford is starting a family.

Starting a family is something I consider more important than buying Sky. That is one of the reasons I gave for not being able to afford it if you remember? We are lucky we have parents on both sides that are willing to help financially, but asking for them to pay for Sky F1 would be a little bit cheeky. Money is tight and it would be a massive struggle, but the benefits far out weigh watching F1 I would have thought. Anyway thats for a different thread..;)

Not one of your finer posts I must admit.

Edited by tifosiMac, 07 January 2012 - 09:08.

[zack1994]

gricey1981, on Jan 7 2012, 01:09, said:

To me it seems Hamilton has got more pace thats why he trounces Button in Qualifying.

Jenson still isnt slow but he was much better at racing last year.

Had Hamilton not crashed into Massa 100 times and Button not crashed into him in Canada it would have been very different.

Button has not got all of sudden faster or anything.

1. There's no doubt lewis is a little bit quicker in quali.

2.When lewis had his collisions with massa, jenson was ahead already or not in the race and your canada point we don't where lewis would have finished.

3.Button was more comfortable in the mclaren team and the car than he was in 2010 which means he was faster its not magic its logicical that he was gonna be better/faster in 2011.
Here are some quali stats to prove the point
In 2011 there was 1 tenth between jenson and lewis in quali 7 times
In 2010 there was 1 tenth between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times
In 2011 there was 2 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 4 times
In 2010 there was 2 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times
In 2011 there was 3 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 1 time
In 2010 there was 3 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times

Quali in 2011 he was faster than he was in 2010.

Edited by zack1994, 07 January 2012 - 13:42.

[fieraku]

Peter Perfect, on Jan 6 2012, 15:22, said:

What's your view of drivers regarded as qualifying specialists (e.g. Trulli at his peak) who subsequently struggled comparatively during races?

Struggled how? Jarno at his peak beat JB,Alonso and Ralph.What was he supposed to do,win a title?Jarno was a very good and fast driver not just some Q specialist.

[Peter Perfect]

fieraku, on Jan 7 2012, 15:33, said:

Struggled how? Jarno at his peak beat JB,Alonso and Ralph.What was he supposed to do,win a title?Jarno was a very good and fast driver not just some Q specialist.

Presumably the phrase 'Trulli Train' means nothing to you?

[tifosiMac]

fieraku, on Jan 7 2012, 15:33, said:

Struggled how? Jarno at his peak beat JB,Alonso and Ralph.What was he supposed to do,win a title?Jarno was a very good and fast driver not just some Q specialist.

The thing is when Jarno was at his peak Jenson and Fernando were very much rookies.

[fieraku]

Peter Perfect, on Jan 7 2012, 13:16, said:

Presumably the phrase 'Trulli Train' means nothing to you?

Yeah,it means he was a darn good defender vs mediocre overtakers. I've also seen Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton trains,even though they had only one or two cars following the locomotive.

[fieraku]

tifosiMac, on Jan 7 2012, 13:21, said:

The thing is when Jarno was at his peak Jenson and Fernando were very much rookies.

Exactly,which was many moons ago.

[zack1994]

fieraku, on Jan 7 2012, 21:25, said:

Yeah,it means he was a darn good defender vs mediocre overtakers. I've also seen Schumacher/Alonso/Hamilton trains,even though they had only one or two cars following the locomotive.

I think it's called dirty air isn't it.
BTW trulli didn't beat button.

[GlenP]

tifosiMac, on Jan 6 2012, 20:10, said:

Thats all fair enough as long as you are not offended when people like myself consider him better than the rest. I see you tried to provoke once again with your use of the word 'when', but whatever.

A: How could I be offended? You or I nor anyone else on here know the drivers personally, or have any stake in their fortunes other than just liking their way of doing things.

I might get irritated if people use stupid "logic" and say dumb things without justification. But that is a rather different thing to taking offence.

B: My use of the word "when" was just a little spin. But that you condier it provocative speaks volumes. Do you consider it provocative when people confidently predict Lewis 2012 WDC? Plus - on the evidence so far Jenson is the more likely to prevail, since he won last year and is ahead over both years combined too.

[tifosiMac]

GlenP, on Jan 8 2012, 11:42, said:

I might get irritated if people use stupid "logic" and say dumb things without justification. But that is a rather different thing to taking offence.

B: My use of the word "when" was just a little spin. But that you condier it provocative speaks volumes. Do you consider it provocative when people confidently predict Lewis 2012 WDC? Plus - on the evidence so far Jenson is the more likely to prevail, since he won last year and is ahead over both years combined too.

We are both alike in the case of getting irritated by what we consider stupid logic, so that probably why I clash with you on opinions so often. I'll reserve judgement on whether Lewis will become a WDC this year, but I think other than Vettel he is most likely to achieve this based on his ability. If Lewis cintinues to drive like he has for most of his career bar a few races in 2011, he's the most on form for the title IMO. With all fairness to Button I think Alonso is Lewis' biggest threat.

[GlenP]

I agree that Alonso should be watched. He is truly a force, and has no real weaknesses. No-one will ever know what was behind his meltdown in 2007, but he sure does seem to have learned from it. If Lewis can take a similar lesson from his own lapses then he will be up there with the other favourites.

[tifosiMac]

GlenP, on Jan 8 2012, 12:07, said:

I agree that Alonso should be watched. He is truly a force, and has no real weaknesses. No-one will ever know what was behind his meltdown in 2007, but he sure does seem to have learned from it. If Lewis can take a similar lesson from his own lapses then he will be up there with the other favourites.

I think Hamilton's biggest test was 2009 and he came back stronger than ever. His 2010 season was magic with rarely a mistake, and his end to last season was strong too. I don't think theres a problem with his mindset to be honest. He starts every season strong and I see 2012 as no different. Alonso's only weakness I can think of is pushing in the wet, but like Lewis he is known for losing his temper inside the cockpit and compromising his race on occassion. Both excellent drivers and the class of the field though IMO. I'd like to see Vettel tested this year against the best.

[Clatter]

tifosiMac, on Jan 8 2012, 12:12, said:

I think Hamilton's biggest test was 2009 and he came back stronger than ever. His 2010 season was magic with rarely a mistake, and his end to last season was strong too. I don't think theres a problem with his mindset to be honest. He starts every season strong and I see 2012 as no different. Alonso's only weakness I can think of is pushing in the wet, but like Lewis he is known for losing his temper inside the cockpit and compromising his race on occassion. Both excellent drivers and the class of the field though IMO. I'd like to see Vettel tested this year against the best.

I agree he will come back strong, but not that 2009 was a bigger test. In 2009 the car was poor, not his fault in anyway, and he drove really well to extract as much from it as he could. 2011 was different, the car was OK, not the best, but a good performer none the less. The problems that occurred were mainly his own, and it was fairly clear that something was getting to him. Whether that was from within the team or his personal life is something only he really knows, but it was there for all to see. That for me makes 2011 a bigger test as he needs to look to himself to sort out the issues.

[hammibal]

swerved, on Jan 6 2012, 12:47, said:

Here's something not only we, but the entire world knows as fact.



1 Sebastian Vettel German RBR-Renault 392
2 Jenson Button British McLaren-Mercedes 270
3 Mark Webber Australian RBR-Renault 258
4 Fernando Alonso Spanish Ferrari 257
5 Lewis Hamilton British McLaren-Mercedes 227



Jenson was 43 points more "50/50" than Lewis.

No ifs,

No Ands,

No Whats,

No buts,

Just

The Truth.

krea, on Jan 6 2012, 14:10, said:

F1 is all about average speed, so to have the fastest lap is nothing worth if you kill your tyres with it for example. Button is a typical endurance driver with his soft driving style, even he has less fastest laps than Hamilton so he has still the higher average speed.

TallyHo, on Jan 7 2012, 07:35, said:

Agreed, Qualy is JBs biggest weakness, Hamilton just pulls that little bit extra out in qualy. If JB manages to sort his qualy out this year, which i believe he can because there wasn't that much between them last year, then i feel an even bigger pasting coming Lewis' way.

Also, what was Hamilton doing occupying the same piece of Tarmac as Massa? If you look back at any GP where Lewis had contact with Massa, you'd see that JB was off into the distance before those two decided to play bumper cars.

Whats interesting though is despite all the qualifying strategy gaffes, the penalties and the comings together with other drivers, in the races that both drivers finished the score was 7-7, so i wouldn't be writing Lewis's orbitruary just yet

zack1994, on Jan 7 2012, 13:42, said:

1. There's no doubt lewis is a little bit quicker in quali.

2.When lewis had his collisions with massa, jenson was ahead already or not in the race and your canada point we don't where lewis would have finished.

3.Button was more comfortable in the mclaren team and the car than he was in 2010 which means he was faster its not magic its logicical that he was gonna be better/faster in 2011.
Here are some quali stats to prove the point
In 2011 there was 1 tenth between jenson and lewis in quali 7 times
In 2010 there was 1 tenth between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times
In 2011 there was 2 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 4 times
In 2010 there was 2 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times
In 2011 there was 3 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 1 time
In 2010 there was 3 tenths between jenson and lewis in quali 3 times

Quali in 2011 he was faster than he was in 2010.

Possibly but there was a few Q3 sessions messed up for Lewis, i still feel he has 2 tenths on Jenson in qualifying

[tifosiMac]

Clatter, on Jan 8 2012, 15:28, said:

I agree he will come back strong, but not that 2009 was a bigger test. In 2009 the car was poor, not his fault in anyway, and he drove really well to extract as much from it as he could. 2011 was different, the car was OK, not the best, but a good performer none the less. The problems that occurred were mainly his own, and it was fairly clear that something was getting to him. Whether that was from within the team or his personal life is something only he really knows, but it was there for all to see. That for me makes 2011 a bigger test as he needs to look to himself to sort out the issues.

I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem in 2012. It certainly wasn't in the last races of 2011 so I think it was clear he had overcome whaever the problem was. He was back to his best IMO.

[halifaxf1fan]

tifosiMac, on Jan 8 2012, 12:15, said:

I'm pretty sure it won't be a problem in 2012. It certainly wasn't in the last races of 2011 so I think it was clear he had overcome whaever the problem was. He was back to his best IMO.

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advice - Don't wager your money on Hamilton (Jenson is the safer bet). I would guess though that you already know this!

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 08 January 2012 - 19:38.

[ImDDAA]

Clatter, on Jan 8 2012, 15:28, said:

I agree he will come back strong, but not that 2009 was a bigger test. In 2009 the car was poor, not his fault in anyway, and he drove really well to extract as much from it as he could. 2011 was different, the car was OK, not the best, but a good performer none the less. The problems that occurred were mainly his own, and it was fairly clear that something was getting to him. Whether that was from within the team or his personal life is something only he really knows, but it was there for all to see. That for me makes 2011 a bigger test as he needs to look to himself to sort out the issues.

Definitely, 2011 was the first time you could really say he wasn't good enough. I have no idea how to call it right now because I don't really know what was causing his problems. Some of these errors were small mistakes and perhaps we make them too significant? But the sheer amount of small and large on track issues became too large to ignore.

[lewymp4]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 12:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

The pressure surely was on for Lewis during the last few laps of the Brazilian Gp in 2008, but he still managed to continue to push with that never giveup attitude, which helped him secure a WDC in his second year of F1.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Manners]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 16:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

How much more pressure can you get than the last corner of the last race of the season to secure the WDC ? Please do tell.

[Manners]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 16:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

Interesting. A quick Google search will show that Hamilton is favourite over Button for the 2012 season. However, if you know better, than I'd be happy to start an online bookie's with you.

This time next year we could be millionaires, Rodney.

[robefc]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 16:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

Always the same argument Halifax but the thing is I'd say Lewis's mistakes or underwhelming performances are equally distributed between times when he could be said to be under pressure and other times when he's not.

[Clatter]

Manners, on Jan 8 2012, 17:58, said:

Interesting. A quick Google search will show that Hamilton is favourite over Button for the 2012 season. However, if you know better, than I'd be happy to start an online bookie's with you.

This time next year we could be millionaires, Rodney.

And the favourite never loses does he? I'd be careful before you open that bookies.

[Manners]

Clatter, on Jan 8 2012, 18:17, said:

And the favourite never loses does he? I'd be careful before you open that bookies.

I am. Bookies aren't usually wrong though, that's why the bank almost always wins. I've a suspicion that they know what they're doing.

Having said that, I hope not, as I'm heading over to Vegas later this year, and I want to come back a millionaire. Probably not though, but it's going to be fun trying.

[Clatter]

Manners, on Jan 8 2012, 18:21, said:

I am. Bookies aren't usually wrong though, that's why the bank almost always wins. I've a suspicion that they know what they're doing.

Having said that, I hope not, as I'm heading over to Vegas later this year, and I want to come back a millionaire. Probably not though, but it's going to be fun trying.

The bookies form their odds on the way the betting is going, that's why they don't normally lose. That doesn't mean the person being bet on is a sure thing.

As for Vegas, I've been there and didn't see many people winning.

[Bonaventura]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 17:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

The only safe thing in life is death. So you can spent your life and sit around and wait for it. This is 100% safe
But what about fun?
I would rather loose my money than....
Lewis is good under pressure

[tifosiMac]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 16:47, said:

He was ok when the pressure was off. I would think it is likely the same problems with pressure and concentration that have followed him through his time in F1 to again crop up in 2012. We shall see.

Advise - Don't wager your money on Hamilton, Jenson is the safer bet. (I would guess though that you already know this!)

Its the same old stuff isn't it? Why you didn't slip in the old "he's in decline since 2007" I just don't know. You do realise when Lewis gets his act together and is once again a title contender, you're going to look rather stupid with some of these weak comments. I've been bookmarking them for quite a while lol. Lewis does not have a problem with pressure anymore than any other driver. He's never lost a title due to faltering under pressure and apart from the odd silly mistake in the past, pressure is something Lewis is one of the best at handling IMO. You're not as successfull as Lewis if you can't deliver.

[halifaxf1fan]

Bonaventura, on Jan 8 2012, 15:09, said:

The only safe thing in life is death. So you can spent your life and sit around and wait for it. This is 100% safe
But what about fun?
I would rather loose my money than....
Lewis is good under pressure

That is a good attitude!

ps. Are you sure this isn't what you meant to say? - "Lewis is god under pressure"

[halifaxf1fan]

tifosiMac, on Jan 8 2012, 15:14, said:

Its the same old stuff isn't it? Why you didn't slip in the old "he's in decline since 2007" I just don't know. You do realise when Lewis gets his act together and is once again a title contender, you're going to look rather stupid with some of these weak comments. I've been bookmarking them for quite a while lol. Lewis does not have a problem with pressure anymore than any other driver. He's never lost a title due to faltering under pressure and apart from the odd silly mistake in the past, pressure is something Lewis is one of the best at handling IMO. You're not as successfull as Lewis if you can't deliver.

And each year that passes seems to prove me right it seems!

Maybe he has gotten it figured out as you say towards the end of last season. The one thing that may back up your theory is if Hamilton had been given the goods by the team to perform or else ..... . This seemed to be the case at Korea where Hamilton actually seemed to not want to get into the car with Whitmarsh seen coaxing him just before the race.



if he had hit rock bottom and made a decision to change his ways then there could be hope for his 2012 season.

Ps. You are bookmarking my posts! Maybe someday you can produce a "The Best of halifaxf1fan" list.

[tifosiMac]

Drivers are also human eh?

[Concorde]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 20:50, said:

ps. Are you sure this isn't what you meant to say? - "Lewis is god under pressure"

[tifosiMac]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 19:50, said:

Are you sure this isn't what you meant to say? - "Lewis is god under pressure"

This is evidently hilarious, but can you explain why? Can you not make up your mind whether you like Lewis or not? I'm guessing you are really a fan as you post about him so often.;) Here it is ( )

[Bonaventura]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 20:50, said:

That is a good attitude!

ps. Are you sure this isn't what you meant to say? - "Lewis is god under pressure"

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.


I am serious!

[Bonaventura]

halifaxf1fan, on Jan 8 2012, 21:08, said:

And each year that passes seems to prove me right it seems!

Maybe he has gotten it figured out as you say towards the end of last season. The one thing that may back up your theory is if Hamilton had been given the goods by the team to perform or else ..... . This seemed to be the case at Korea where Hamilton actually seemed to not want to get into the car with Whitmarsh seen coaxing him just before the race.



if he had hit rock bottom and made a decision to change his ways then there could be hope for his 2012 season.

Ps. You are bookmarking my posts! Maybe someday you can produce a "The Best of halifaxf1fan" list.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion, Lewis did not want to get into the car?

[MP422]

Bonaventura, on Jan 8 2012, 22:11, said:

How on earth did you come to that conclusion, Lewis did not want to get into the car?

+1 I would like to know as well. I think he had a brilliant race in korea too right ?

[P123]

Bonaventura, on Jan 8 2012, 22:11, said:

How on earth did you come to that conclusion, Lewis did not want to get into the car?

That theory made me Especially just going from one picture. Still, for imagination.

PS- I hope Lewis has to be coaxed into the car more often should it lead to Korean weekend performances.

Edited by P123, 08 January 2012 - 23:29.

[as65p]

P123, on Jan 9 2012, 00:27, said:

That theory made me Especially just going from one picture. Still, for imagination.

PS- I hope Lewis has to be coaxed into the car more often should it lead to Korean weekend performances.

Pfft... that's nothing. I've seen fans read his mind even with the helmet on at full speed.

[P123]

as65p, on Jan 8 2012, 23:30, said:

Pfft... that's nothing. I've seen fans read his mind even with the helmet on at full speed.

[halifaxf1fan]

Bonaventura, on Jan 8 2012, 18:10, said:

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.


I am serious!

So sorry Bona, no intention to offend you or the big guy in any way. Just an attempt at being humorous that didn't work!

[halifaxf1fan]

Bonaventura, on Jan 8 2012, 18:11, said:

How on earth did you come to that conclusion, Lewis did not want to get into the car?

Seemed like he wasn't in a racing mood! Is it common for Whitmarsh to be out talking to his drivers at that point? I haven't noticed alot of TP's doing that.