Allen asked elsewhere if he and 'Island' -- AKA the mysterious Wolfgang K., were the only ones interested in F5000.
Not at all! The Formula SCCA, Formula A, and Formua 5000 days in the USofA are an area that I am finally getting around to working on after mulling over several other projects. The creation of Formula SCCA in 1964 and its debut in 1965 and its morphing into FA in 1968 its eventual demise at the end of 1976 as F5000 is a tale to which far too little attention has been paid.
I am interested not merely the statistics, but the racers and the races as well. It was a surprise to realize how little attention that has been paid to this series. However, I think much of that has to do with the mindset that since it isn't F1, who cares?
Sadly, until only recently, few had done much on other forms of open-wheeled racing in the US. Fortunately, great folks like Dick Wallen, Gordon White, Phil Harms, Don Radbusch, Mike Lynch and others are starting to explore AAA & USAC racing and allow us to enjoy the fruits of their labor.
I have information I gathered from my last visit to Watkins Glen -- thanks to Phil & Mark -- covering much of the period up to the end of 1968. On the next visit I will continue from there.
This is the sort of work I think TNF does best.
Formula SCCA, FA & F5000
Started by
Don Capps
, Jan 12 2001 18:41
27 replies to this topic
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#2
Dave Ware
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Posted 12 January 2001 - 18:52
I was a great fan of F5000, having attended races at Mid-Ohio, Mosport and the Glen, and following the Shellsport and Peter S. series via Autoweek. A great formula, great racing, and many great and many almost great drivers and teams.
We need a book covering the history of all three championships.
Dave
We need a book covering the history of all three championships.
Dave
#3
David M. Kane
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Posted 12 January 2001 - 19:16
Yes, I would like to know a lot more about the early days.
People like Dickie Smothers, former Senator Heinz of Ketchup
fame did the original series. This is a very, very interesting area to explore.
I attended several F5000 events. I particularly remember one
at Watkins Glen when Jody Scheckter was driving for Sid Taylor and bent the tub slightly against the armco just badly enough that he couldn't continue his qualifying effort. So Sid went up and down the garage looking for a solution. He ended up buying Bob Lazier's car right out from
under him. I didn't have the guts to ask Bob how sweet the deal was, but he seemed pretty happy when I saw him later in the day. Oh! Yeah! Jody got the pole.
People like Dickie Smothers, former Senator Heinz of Ketchup
fame did the original series. This is a very, very interesting area to explore.
I attended several F5000 events. I particularly remember one
at Watkins Glen when Jody Scheckter was driving for Sid Taylor and bent the tub slightly against the armco just badly enough that he couldn't continue his qualifying effort. So Sid went up and down the garage looking for a solution. He ended up buying Bob Lazier's car right out from
under him. I didn't have the guts to ask Bob how sweet the deal was, but he seemed pretty happy when I saw him later in the day. Oh! Yeah! Jody got the pole.
#4
Dave Ware
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Posted 12 January 2001 - 20:52
Part of what Lazier got out of that deal was getting to keep whatever mods the Taylor team put on the car.
I was at that race also. Were you the one with the yellow shirt?
Dave
I was at that race also. Were you the one with the yellow shirt?
Dave
#5
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 08:29
The early years of FA are a complete mystery to me; adequate coverage only seems to start with the adoption of the 5-litre stock block formula for 1968. In the earlier years, FA was for 3-litre racing engines, as per the forthcoming F1, but I'm not aware of a single 3-litre racing engine appearing in the category until Lovely's Lotus 49 much later.
In those first three seasons, the FB cars were faster and the only competitive FA runners appear to have been those with 1.5-litre ex-F1 cars such as McIntosh in the Mid-West and Eiteljorg on the west coast.
In 1965, no FA cars competed at the run-offs. In 1966, McIntosh won but in 1967, it was even worse: Chuck Kirkbride winning in a Lotus, very probably an ancient Lotus 18 (and three laps behind the best FBs), when the other three runners all retired. One of those, Lewis Williams, appears to have been driving BRM of some sort.
Clearly one of motor racings most obscure periods.
Allen
In those first three seasons, the FB cars were faster and the only competitive FA runners appear to have been those with 1.5-litre ex-F1 cars such as McIntosh in the Mid-West and Eiteljorg on the west coast.
In 1965, no FA cars competed at the run-offs. In 1966, McIntosh won but in 1967, it was even worse: Chuck Kirkbride winning in a Lotus, very probably an ancient Lotus 18 (and three laps behind the best FBs), when the other three runners all retired. One of those, Lewis Williams, appears to have been driving BRM of some sort.
Clearly one of motor racings most obscure periods.
Allen
#6
David McKinney
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 08:50
I find the 1965/67 period equally frustrating, but you seem ahead of me, Allen. You obviously have at lease some results - are they easily postable?
I am also intrigued by the proposed Formula 366, which was a few years earlier. Occasional references crop up to open-wheelers being built for it, but I believe the series was stillborn. Perhaps someone can throw more light on it.
I am also intrigued by the proposed Formula 366, which was a few years earlier. Occasional references crop up to open-wheelers being built for it, but I believe the series was stillborn. Perhaps someone can throw more light on it.
#7
David McKinney
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 09:24
Thinking more about this, perhaps we need a new interim thread, to cover the period between Ray Bell’s 1960 cut-off and the start of FA/FB/FC in 1965. This would encompass such events as the Hoosier GPs at Indianapolis Raceway Park (whose winners included Gurney in an F1 Lotus) and lesser libre races at Watkins Glen and elsewhere. Mike Argetsinger would no doubt help with the latter.
The 1961 Glen Region Open, for example, was won by Hap Sharp in a Cooper-Climax. Was this, I wonder, the F1 car he would race in the US GP at the same venue a couple of weeks later, or was it something less exotic, such as a Monaco?
The 1962 race was won by George Alderman in a Cooper-Alfa - do we know anything about this car?
The SCCA ran a libre race at their 1964 run-offs, which suggests to me that (a) there were regional feeder races at least, and (b) it might have been some sort of try-out for the FA/FB/FC series. Alderman in his Cooper-Alfa was winner of this race, too.
In 1967 there was a five-round “Grand Prix Championship” in addition to the run-offs, and it was this series that allowed the stock-blockers to join in the following year.
I think Allen Brown is right in saying there were no 3-litre engines intil 1969, the year of Lovely’s Lotus 49. That year Horst Kwech also raced a Chevron with a 2.7-litre Alfa V8, and Hutchison ran his Brabham BT26 at the end of the same season. I don't know the Chevron model, but it's safe to say it had no F1 history!
The 1961 Glen Region Open, for example, was won by Hap Sharp in a Cooper-Climax. Was this, I wonder, the F1 car he would race in the US GP at the same venue a couple of weeks later, or was it something less exotic, such as a Monaco?
The 1962 race was won by George Alderman in a Cooper-Alfa - do we know anything about this car?
The SCCA ran a libre race at their 1964 run-offs, which suggests to me that (a) there were regional feeder races at least, and (b) it might have been some sort of try-out for the FA/FB/FC series. Alderman in his Cooper-Alfa was winner of this race, too.
In 1967 there was a five-round “Grand Prix Championship” in addition to the run-offs, and it was this series that allowed the stock-blockers to join in the following year.
I think Allen Brown is right in saying there were no 3-litre engines intil 1969, the year of Lovely’s Lotus 49. That year Horst Kwech also raced a Chevron with a 2.7-litre Alfa V8, and Hutchison ran his Brabham BT26 at the end of the same season. I don't know the Chevron model, but it's safe to say it had no F1 history!
#8
fines
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 10:14
This is an area where it would take hours for me to dig up very little info. Wasn't one of the Scarab GP cars converted into a Formula 366? And wasn't there a series like the "Grand Prix Championship" already in 1965/66?
#9
David McKinney
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 12:02
You may be right on both counts, Fines. I was going to mention Scarab, but my hazy recollection was the the car in question was a single-seater with Buick engine in the rear, and that appeared earlu in 1962. I thought F366 was mooted for 1963.
And the so-called GP Championship may indeed have run before 1967, presumably under Formule Libre regs.
I wonder if anyone else can be more specific?
And the so-called GP Championship may indeed have run before 1967, presumably under Formule Libre regs.
I wonder if anyone else can be more specific?
#10
David M. Kane
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 12:47
Dave Ware I don't think I would wear a yellow shirt to any
race track? Are you pulling my leg?
Actually, I was at the race with Quicksilver Racing to watch
my friend Jim Sarich run their McRae. He and Chuck took turns driving the car. The first race shop I ran my Royale
FF out of was their shop in Gaithersburg, Maryland. At the
time their mechanic, Sandy Samilian (pardon the spelling)
was one of the best FF engine guys. He also did a lot of
Formula B engines.
You are absolutely right, I had forgot that was the deal
with Bob Lazier and Sid Taylor. Bob was a very, very clever business guy. As you probably well know he went on to become rookie of the year at Indy. He also produced two great sons Buddy and Jacques who are pretty good racers to say the least.
Jody was pretty magical that weekend, those were the days
when he drove with total abandonment. I could watch Jody
and "Mad Ronald" Peterson all day long, seven days a week.
race track? Are you pulling my leg?
Actually, I was at the race with Quicksilver Racing to watch
my friend Jim Sarich run their McRae. He and Chuck took turns driving the car. The first race shop I ran my Royale
FF out of was their shop in Gaithersburg, Maryland. At the
time their mechanic, Sandy Samilian (pardon the spelling)
was one of the best FF engine guys. He also did a lot of
Formula B engines.
You are absolutely right, I had forgot that was the deal
with Bob Lazier and Sid Taylor. Bob was a very, very clever business guy. As you probably well know he went on to become rookie of the year at Indy. He also produced two great sons Buddy and Jacques who are pretty good racers to say the least.
Jody was pretty magical that weekend, those were the days
when he drove with total abandonment. I could watch Jody
and "Mad Ronald" Peterson all day long, seven days a week.
#11
island
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 14:49
David,
there is a notice in a 1973 Autoweek copy that the
Sarich brothers/Quicksilver Racing bought 2 McRae chassis
from the factory ? Is that correct and do you know
if they sold the second chassis ?
Jim Sarich raced the McRae at Watkins Glen (a fine fifth
in his heat) but did he compete in other 1973 events ?
Chuck Sarich does not appear in the 1973 result lists.
Do you know if he ever tried to qualify the McRae
for a race ?
there is a notice in a 1973 Autoweek copy that the
Sarich brothers/Quicksilver Racing bought 2 McRae chassis
from the factory ? Is that correct and do you know
if they sold the second chassis ?
Jim Sarich raced the McRae at Watkins Glen (a fine fifth
in his heat) but did he compete in other 1973 events ?
Chuck Sarich does not appear in the 1973 result lists.
Do you know if he ever tried to qualify the McRae
for a race ?
#12
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 15:42
There was also a set of three or four races in 1961 run to the Intercontinental formula and I'm sure I saw some details of the dates, locations and winners of those recently. Or maybe I dreamt it!
There were also races in 1962 competed by Mayer in Penske's Cooper T53 but I haven't been able to find out any details of those. Maybe they were just SCCA Regionals?
The only results I have are those of the 1967 ARRC FA Final which I have already mentioned:
Combined FA/FB/FC race over 26 laps of Daytona Beach (date unknown but 'late November'). FA class as follows:
1 C. Kirkbride - Lotus - 23 laps (start pos 2)
DID NOT FINISH
2 Lewis Williams - BRM - 12 laps (DNQ)
3 Clint Cavin - Cooper - 7 laps (3)
4 Thomas Jones - Cooper - 6 laps (1)
(Source: Competition Year 1967 - Petersen Press - p141)
The Lotus was possibly Lotus 18 372 which Doug Nye notes in Theme Lotus was owned in 1978 by Charles Kirkbride having gone to J Wheeler Autosport for Peter Ryan late 1961.
The BRM is a puzzle but could possibly be BRM P261 2613 which is known to have gone to the States at some time. But 1968 feels to early for that.
The Jones Cooper could well be the same car he turned up in at the 1967 Canadian GP. The F1 Register list that as T82 F2-2-66 but I have to say I'm not so sure.
Can anyone add any of the other early FA run-off races?
Allen
There were also races in 1962 competed by Mayer in Penske's Cooper T53 but I haven't been able to find out any details of those. Maybe they were just SCCA Regionals?
The only results I have are those of the 1967 ARRC FA Final which I have already mentioned:
Combined FA/FB/FC race over 26 laps of Daytona Beach (date unknown but 'late November'). FA class as follows:
1 C. Kirkbride - Lotus - 23 laps (start pos 2)
DID NOT FINISH
2 Lewis Williams - BRM - 12 laps (DNQ)
3 Clint Cavin - Cooper - 7 laps (3)
4 Thomas Jones - Cooper - 6 laps (1)
(Source: Competition Year 1967 - Petersen Press - p141)
The Lotus was possibly Lotus 18 372 which Doug Nye notes in Theme Lotus was owned in 1978 by Charles Kirkbride having gone to J Wheeler Autosport for Peter Ryan late 1961.
The BRM is a puzzle but could possibly be BRM P261 2613 which is known to have gone to the States at some time. But 1968 feels to early for that.
The Jones Cooper could well be the same car he turned up in at the 1967 Canadian GP. The F1 Register list that as T82 F2-2-66 but I have to say I'm not so sure.
Can anyone add any of the other early FA run-off races?
Allen
#13
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 15:55
I'm wrong again!!
Just as I was posting that last one, Island was e-mailing me with an Autoweek story from 10 June 1967 saying that 'Chuck Trowbridge has the Harrison Lotus 24, now with a 3-litre Ford'. So I guess that's Lotus 24 941 which went to 'J Frank Harrison (USA)' in 1963 (Source: Theme Lotus). I wonder what that engine was.
It also says 'Jack Eiteljorg's ex-Lloyd Ruby Brabham now has the 2.7-litre Climax which has powered Jack Hinkle to so many wins'. This car was the ex-Rob Walker/Jo Siffert F1-6-64 which had gone to Gene White racing at the end of 1966 and may - or may not - have been used as a pattern for the first Mongoose Indy cars.
Way to go, Island!
Now all we need are those 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship results. All I can offer is that Gus hutchinson won one at Continental Divide in 1967, which may be the race Island's cutting is previewing. I know absolutely nothing else. Can anyone help?
Allen
Just as I was posting that last one, Island was e-mailing me with an Autoweek story from 10 June 1967 saying that 'Chuck Trowbridge has the Harrison Lotus 24, now with a 3-litre Ford'. So I guess that's Lotus 24 941 which went to 'J Frank Harrison (USA)' in 1963 (Source: Theme Lotus). I wonder what that engine was.
It also says 'Jack Eiteljorg's ex-Lloyd Ruby Brabham now has the 2.7-litre Climax which has powered Jack Hinkle to so many wins'. This car was the ex-Rob Walker/Jo Siffert F1-6-64 which had gone to Gene White racing at the end of 1966 and may - or may not - have been used as a pattern for the first Mongoose Indy cars.
Way to go, Island!
Now all we need are those 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship results. All I can offer is that Gus hutchinson won one at Continental Divide in 1967, which may be the race Island's cutting is previewing. I know absolutely nothing else. Can anyone help?
Allen
#14
fines
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 16:10
1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship
Round 1: May 14, Continental Divide, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 2: May 20, Bridgehampton, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 3: Jun 25, War Bonnet, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 4: Sep 17, St. Jovite, 1st Fred Ashplant, Brabham_Cosworth BT21
Round 5: Oct 1, Kingsbury NEV, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
1968 SCCA Grand Prix Championship
Round 1: May 26, Continental Divide, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 2: Jun 16, War Bonnet, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 3: Jul 27, Road America, 1st Jerry Hansen, Lola_Chevrolet T140
Round 4: Aug 18, Thompson, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 5: Aug 24, Mosport, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 6: Sep 2, Lime Rock (hello Tony Kaye!), 1st George Wintersteen, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 7: Oct 12, Laguna Seca, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 1: May 14, Continental Divide, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 2: May 20, Bridgehampton, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 3: Jun 25, War Bonnet, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
Round 4: Sep 17, St. Jovite, 1st Fred Ashplant, Brabham_Cosworth BT21
Round 5: Oct 1, Kingsbury NEV, 1st Gus Hutchison, Lotus_Cosworth 41
1968 SCCA Grand Prix Championship
Round 1: May 26, Continental Divide, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 2: Jun 16, War Bonnet, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 3: Jul 27, Road America, 1st Jerry Hansen, Lola_Chevrolet T140
Round 4: Aug 18, Thompson, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 5: Aug 24, Mosport, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 6: Sep 2, Lime Rock (hello Tony Kaye!), 1st George Wintersteen, Eagle_Chevrolet
Round 7: Oct 12, Laguna Seca, 1st Lou Sell, Eagle_Chevrolet
#15
David McKinney
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 20:10
I don’t follow that Lotus stuff, Allen. Unless Chuck Kirkbride and Chuck Trowbridge are the same person?
Brief details of the 200-mile Hoosier Grand Prix at Indianapolis Raceway Park on 28 July 1963: Gurney in a 2.5 Lotus 18 was troubled by an oil leak but kept going to win. Penske’s 2.7 Lotus 24 retired leaving Hap Sharp to place second in a 1500-engined FJ Lotus. Most of the other starters were sportscars.
American Road Race of Champions (aka SCCA run-offs)
1965 (Daytona road circuit):
Presumably combined FA/FB/FC race, won by Earl Jones in an Alfa-powered Le Grand running in FB. As you said, Allen, there were no FA starters
1966 (Riverside):
Harry McIntosh (Brabham) won FA
1967 (Daytona):
if Kirkbride was the only finisher in the combined FA/FB/FC race, and completed 23 laps in a 26-lap race, presumably FB winner Chuck Dietrich (McLaren M4A) was the overall winner?
1968 (Riverside):
Ron Grable (Spectre) won FA - I had the great honour and privilege of seeing this combination race in New Zealand a couple of months later
1969 (Daytona):
Peter Rehl (Cooper-Chevrolet) won FA from Fred Corbett (Eagle) and Chuck Dietrich (Lola)
I can’t easily access results after that
1967 Grand Prix championship: My information is there were eight rounds, of which Sell won five, Wintersteen two and Hansen won. So are we missing one?
Brief details of the 200-mile Hoosier Grand Prix at Indianapolis Raceway Park on 28 July 1963: Gurney in a 2.5 Lotus 18 was troubled by an oil leak but kept going to win. Penske’s 2.7 Lotus 24 retired leaving Hap Sharp to place second in a 1500-engined FJ Lotus. Most of the other starters were sportscars.
American Road Race of Champions (aka SCCA run-offs)
1965 (Daytona road circuit):
Presumably combined FA/FB/FC race, won by Earl Jones in an Alfa-powered Le Grand running in FB. As you said, Allen, there were no FA starters
1966 (Riverside):
Harry McIntosh (Brabham) won FA
1967 (Daytona):
if Kirkbride was the only finisher in the combined FA/FB/FC race, and completed 23 laps in a 26-lap race, presumably FB winner Chuck Dietrich (McLaren M4A) was the overall winner?
1968 (Riverside):
Ron Grable (Spectre) won FA - I had the great honour and privilege of seeing this combination race in New Zealand a couple of months later
1969 (Daytona):
Peter Rehl (Cooper-Chevrolet) won FA from Fred Corbett (Eagle) and Chuck Dietrich (Lola)
I can’t easily access results after that
1967 Grand Prix championship: My information is there were eight rounds, of which Sell won five, Wintersteen two and Hansen won. So are we missing one?
#16
David M. Kane
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 21:14
Island:
I will tell you what I remember at this moment.
Originally the Sarichs and Sandy were all keen to go with
a March F5000 because of their excellent experience with March in Formula B where they had run a successful two car
team. They had been aggressive seeking sponsorship and they
had had several near misses so they kept plugging away like most of us did.
That January Tom Pumpelly, his wife and I went to London to attend the Race Car Show at Earls Court. What a neat experience that was as we got to do some partying with James
Hunt, Mike Wilds and Val Musetti (spelling?). I also got
to meet Roger Williamson at the show and have a really nice
chat with him. What a nice gentleman he was.
We were there for about week and we went to the show at least two or three of those days, so I visited the March booth several times and even had a chat with Max Mosley.
I was NOT impressed with their F5000 car at all; but I was totally blown away by the McRae. The quality of that car
was very high and it looked very strong to me.
So I came back with a cutaway drawing of it and shown it to
Sandy and told him he ought to at least check out before they bought the March.
I think the intent was to buy two, one now and one when they
closed the sponsorship deal. Well, about March or April
I moved shop and set-up a relationship with Tom Pumpelly
and lost touch with the situation.
I remember seeing Chuck in the car once, but it was Jim's turn or something like that at Watkins Glen. Both were good
drivers, but I think Jim had more raw talent and I think he
had more raw speed. Both had been good soccers players, particularly Chuck. Jim, on the other hand, though had unbelievable reflexes. He had very fast hands and feet!
It was an honor to know all three of those guys.
In essence, I think the money started running thin. They had
a lot into their effort. Possibly, the raw speed of F5000
got to them. Can you imagine what psychological effect it would have on you to get passed by Jody Scheckter in those days. David Hobbs once said he never saw anyone who could
quickly get a car out of diaster only to immediately create
another! Ted Wenz raced that car in vintage races for about
ten years. He said the McRae was fantastic to drive. He told me this in June at Watkins Glen Vintage races.
Wish I knew more.
I will tell you what I remember at this moment.
Originally the Sarichs and Sandy were all keen to go with
a March F5000 because of their excellent experience with March in Formula B where they had run a successful two car
team. They had been aggressive seeking sponsorship and they
had had several near misses so they kept plugging away like most of us did.
That January Tom Pumpelly, his wife and I went to London to attend the Race Car Show at Earls Court. What a neat experience that was as we got to do some partying with James
Hunt, Mike Wilds and Val Musetti (spelling?). I also got
to meet Roger Williamson at the show and have a really nice
chat with him. What a nice gentleman he was.
We were there for about week and we went to the show at least two or three of those days, so I visited the March booth several times and even had a chat with Max Mosley.
I was NOT impressed with their F5000 car at all; but I was totally blown away by the McRae. The quality of that car
was very high and it looked very strong to me.
So I came back with a cutaway drawing of it and shown it to
Sandy and told him he ought to at least check out before they bought the March.
I think the intent was to buy two, one now and one when they
closed the sponsorship deal. Well, about March or April
I moved shop and set-up a relationship with Tom Pumpelly
and lost touch with the situation.
I remember seeing Chuck in the car once, but it was Jim's turn or something like that at Watkins Glen. Both were good
drivers, but I think Jim had more raw talent and I think he
had more raw speed. Both had been good soccers players, particularly Chuck. Jim, on the other hand, though had unbelievable reflexes. He had very fast hands and feet!
It was an honor to know all three of those guys.
In essence, I think the money started running thin. They had
a lot into their effort. Possibly, the raw speed of F5000
got to them. Can you imagine what psychological effect it would have on you to get passed by Jody Scheckter in those days. David Hobbs once said he never saw anyone who could
quickly get a car out of diaster only to immediately create
another! Ted Wenz raced that car in vintage races for about
ten years. He said the McRae was fantastic to drive. He told me this in June at Watkins Glen Vintage races.
Wish I knew more.
#17
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 22:13
I now have, thanks to the impeccable Island, scans from Autoweek for all five 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship rounds from 1967 plus the 1966 and 1967 ARRC run-offs. One day, when I get time to retype it, all that will be posted to OldRacingCars.com.
First glance shows very few FA cars running. The two ex-F1 Brabhams hardly ever appeared and the Lotus 41s and Brabham BT21s plus Chuck Deitrich's McLaren M4A dominated (David - yes he was winner in 1968). Al Pease got the Eagle T1F out once but the next fastest FA was probably Bub Ehrlich's Grizzly-Torque Special!
Another question for the bookworms: does anyone have the actual dates that the FA/FB/FC races were run at the ARRC for 1965, 1968 and 1970. Island's scans show that the 1966 ARRC race was on 27 Nov and 1967 was on 26 Nov; and the F1 Register books show the 1969 one being on 29 Nov and 1971 on 27 Nov.
Allen
First glance shows very few FA cars running. The two ex-F1 Brabhams hardly ever appeared and the Lotus 41s and Brabham BT21s plus Chuck Deitrich's McLaren M4A dominated (David - yes he was winner in 1968). Al Pease got the Eagle T1F out once but the next fastest FA was probably Bub Ehrlich's Grizzly-Torque Special!
Another question for the bookworms: does anyone have the actual dates that the FA/FB/FC races were run at the ARRC for 1965, 1968 and 1970. Island's scans show that the 1966 ARRC race was on 27 Nov and 1967 was on 26 Nov; and the F1 Register books show the 1969 one being on 29 Nov and 1971 on 27 Nov.
Allen
#18
Allen Brown
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Posted 13 January 2001 - 23:13
Fines
1967 was the first year of a professional championship for Formula SCCA but could there have been an earlier amateur championship?
Allen
Scarab's aren't really my department but I just noticed Dennis Suter retired ("engine") after 2 laps of the Lake Tahoe round of the 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship (round 5 - the final round - 1 October 1967). He had qualified 26th in what the report calls "the ex-Reventlow F/1 machine".Originally posted by fines
This is an area where it would take hours for me to dig up very little info. Wasn't one of the Scarab GP cars converted into a Formula 366? And wasn't there a series like the "Grand Prix Championship" already in 1965/66?
1967 was the first year of a professional championship for Formula SCCA but could there have been an earlier amateur championship?
Allen
#19
Don Capps
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Posted 14 January 2001 - 04:17
GUYS! GUYS!!!
I am on the road and don't have my files with me, but y'all are confusing apples with applesauce here. There was no 'amateur' championship here in the sense you're thinking of, just the winners of the regionals who could get there for the run-offs to compete in their 45 minute race and become the 'national' champion.
F-SCCA was loosely based on the I-CF (that's where the 3-litres come from) and what was on hand - 1600cc and 1100cc engines; so FA, FB, & FC.
This was all discussed in 1964, put on the street for 1965 and 1966 in a haphazard fashion. For 1967, it was decided to have a championship & Gus waxed 'em since he went into the fray loaded for bear. During that season the 5-litre stock block idea came into being and was approved; and thus caused Gus H to tell SCCA to kiss off!
Allen, I have all the Autoweek info (not just the race reports) & the SCCA Sports Car articles plus some other bits and pieces on the 1967 championship & the 1968 season and will have on the rest probably after my next visit to Watkins Glen.
As soon as I am back in NJ, I will look at what I have.
I am on the road and don't have my files with me, but y'all are confusing apples with applesauce here. There was no 'amateur' championship here in the sense you're thinking of, just the winners of the regionals who could get there for the run-offs to compete in their 45 minute race and become the 'national' champion.
F-SCCA was loosely based on the I-CF (that's where the 3-litres come from) and what was on hand - 1600cc and 1100cc engines; so FA, FB, & FC.
This was all discussed in 1964, put on the street for 1965 and 1966 in a haphazard fashion. For 1967, it was decided to have a championship & Gus waxed 'em since he went into the fray loaded for bear. During that season the 5-litre stock block idea came into being and was approved; and thus caused Gus H to tell SCCA to kiss off!
Allen, I have all the Autoweek info (not just the race reports) & the SCCA Sports Car articles plus some other bits and pieces on the 1967 championship & the 1968 season and will have on the rest probably after my next visit to Watkins Glen.
As soon as I am back in NJ, I will look at what I have.
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#20
Allen Brown
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- 5,542 posts
- Joined: December 00
Member
Posted 14 January 2001 - 17:53
Oops!
I made a mistake in my last post above when I said I would post the 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship results on my site. What I meant to say, of course, is that I would post them here. The problem that I have is that I only have scans from Autoweek and I'm not sure if posting copied material is really what we should be doing. Copyright may be infringed.
So I was going to type out the results from the scans and post them. So the only issue is my time - which is limited at the moment due to the impending arrival of a baby.
Is it OK to put those JPEGs here? Don, what are the rules on this? Do Autoweek take a dim view of this sort of thing or do they regard 34-year-old copies as fair game?
Allen
I made a mistake in my last post above when I said I would post the 1967 SCCA Grand Prix Championship results on my site. What I meant to say, of course, is that I would post them here. The problem that I have is that I only have scans from Autoweek and I'm not sure if posting copied material is really what we should be doing. Copyright may be infringed.
So I was going to type out the results from the scans and post them. So the only issue is my time - which is limited at the moment due to the impending arrival of a baby.
Is it OK to put those JPEGs here? Don, what are the rules on this? Do Autoweek take a dim view of this sort of thing or do they regard 34-year-old copies as fair game?
Allen
#21
jarama
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- 1,129 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 14 January 2001 - 20:03
Hi, guys,
I have an article and the complete starting grid and race results for the last FA '69 meeting, held at Sebring. Is there someone interested in?.
I have an article and the complete starting grid and race results for the last FA '69 meeting, held at Sebring. Is there someone interested in?.
#23
jarama
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- 1,129 posts
- Joined: September 00
Member
Posted 15 January 2001 - 00:00
sat,
'69 SCCA FA Championship
13th. and last round
Sebring, 3.5 km
2 heats, 45 laps every heat
Starting grid (2-2-2...) for the 1st.heat
Swede Savage, Eagle 68 Plymouth, 1'04"2
#4, Mario Andretti, Lotus 70 Ford, 1'04"6
#10, Mark Donohue, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'05"
#16, David Hobbs, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'05"
#3?, John Cannon, Eagle 69 Chevrolet, 1'05"9
#1, Sam Posey, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'07"
#53, Gus Hutchinson, Brabham BT26/3 Ford, 1'07"
Jerry Hansen, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'08"4
#15, Trevor Taylor, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'08"4
Tony Adamowicz, Eagle 68 Ford, 1'08"4
Malher, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'08"8
Heinz, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"2
#26, Steve Durst, Vulcan Chevrolet, 1'09"2
#14, Bud Morley, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Horst Kroll, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Jo Bonnier, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Corbett, Eagle Chevrolet, 1'10"
#75, John Martin, Lotus 38 (Eagle?) Chevrolet, 1'10"4
Brockman, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'10"7
#22, Rex Ramsey, LeGrand Chevrolet, 1'11"6
#88, Hamilton Vose, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'12"3
Jacobs, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'12"4
Dick Dejarld, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'13"3
Guneau, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'14"2
#20, Art Kijeck (Tijek?), KayTee Ford, 1'16"2
#17, Bob Stanford, MkKee Chevrolet, 1'16"3
Bouverat, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'19"1
Sherwood Johnston, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'34"7
1st.heat
1st., Hobbs
2nd., Taylor
3rd., Hutchinson
4th., Kroll, 1 lap behind
5th., Durst, 2 laps behind
6th., Bonnier, 2 laps behind
7th., Mahler, 3 laps behind
8th., Morley, 3 laps behind
9th., Ramsey, 7 laps behind
10th., Bouverat, 17 laps behind
2nd.heat
20 starters, starting grid according to 1st.heat classification
1st., Hobbs
2nd., Bonnier
3rd., Hutchinson
4th., Hansen
5th., Kroll, 1 lap behind
6th., Heinz, 3 laps behind
7th., Brockman, 6 laps behind
8th., Bouverat, 7 laps behind
9th., Stanford, 7 laps behind
10th., Morley, 9 laps behind
Aggregate
1st., Hobbs, 90 laps
2nd., Hutchinson, 90 laps
3rd., Bonnier, 88 laps
4th., Kroll, 88 laps
5th., Morley, 78 laps
FINAL STANDINGS '69 SCCA FA CHAMPIONSHIP
1st., Adamowicz, 47 points
2nd., Hobbs, 46 points
3rd., Posey, 41 points
4th., George Wintersteen, Lola, 31 points
Cannon, 31 points
'69 SCCA FA Championship
13th. and last round
Sebring, 3.5 km
2 heats, 45 laps every heat
Starting grid (2-2-2...) for the 1st.heat
Swede Savage, Eagle 68 Plymouth, 1'04"2
#4, Mario Andretti, Lotus 70 Ford, 1'04"6
#10, Mark Donohue, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'05"
#16, David Hobbs, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'05"
#3?, John Cannon, Eagle 69 Chevrolet, 1'05"9
#1, Sam Posey, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'07"
#53, Gus Hutchinson, Brabham BT26/3 Ford, 1'07"
Jerry Hansen, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'08"4
#15, Trevor Taylor, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'08"4
Tony Adamowicz, Eagle 68 Ford, 1'08"4
Malher, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'08"8
Heinz, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"2
#26, Steve Durst, Vulcan Chevrolet, 1'09"2
#14, Bud Morley, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Horst Kroll, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Jo Bonnier, Lola T190 Chevrolet, 1'09"8
Corbett, Eagle Chevrolet, 1'10"
#75, John Martin, Lotus 38 (Eagle?) Chevrolet, 1'10"4
Brockman, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'10"7
#22, Rex Ramsey, LeGrand Chevrolet, 1'11"6
#88, Hamilton Vose, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'12"3
Jacobs, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'12"4
Dick Dejarld, Surtees TS5 Chevrolet, 1'13"3
Guneau, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'14"2
#20, Art Kijeck (Tijek?), KayTee Ford, 1'16"2
#17, Bob Stanford, MkKee Chevrolet, 1'16"3
Bouverat, McLaren M10A Chevrolet, 1'19"1
Sherwood Johnston, Lola T142 Chevrolet, 1'34"7
1st.heat
1st., Hobbs
2nd., Taylor
3rd., Hutchinson
4th., Kroll, 1 lap behind
5th., Durst, 2 laps behind
6th., Bonnier, 2 laps behind
7th., Mahler, 3 laps behind
8th., Morley, 3 laps behind
9th., Ramsey, 7 laps behind
10th., Bouverat, 17 laps behind
2nd.heat
20 starters, starting grid according to 1st.heat classification
1st., Hobbs
2nd., Bonnier
3rd., Hutchinson
4th., Hansen
5th., Kroll, 1 lap behind
6th., Heinz, 3 laps behind
7th., Brockman, 6 laps behind
8th., Bouverat, 7 laps behind
9th., Stanford, 7 laps behind
10th., Morley, 9 laps behind
Aggregate
1st., Hobbs, 90 laps
2nd., Hutchinson, 90 laps
3rd., Bonnier, 88 laps
4th., Kroll, 88 laps
5th., Morley, 78 laps
FINAL STANDINGS '69 SCCA FA CHAMPIONSHIP
1st., Adamowicz, 47 points
2nd., Hobbs, 46 points
3rd., Posey, 41 points
4th., George Wintersteen, Lola, 31 points
Cannon, 31 points
#24
Mike Argetsinger
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- 948 posts
- Joined: April 00
Member
Posted 15 January 2001 - 02:14
Hobbs in the works Surtees was the dominant driver that year. He finished only 1 point from winning the championship despite only running the last half of the season.
#26
Dave Ware
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- 998 posts
- Joined: March 00
Member
Posted 15 January 2001 - 15:45
David Kane wrote
>>Are you pulling my leg?
But of course.
Scheckter at Mid-Ohio in '73; coming thru turn 11, which was slightly uphhill, apex, downhill...watching him from turn 12, he would appear at the apex, sideways, and it looked like he would lose it on every lap. Never did. Won the race and afterwards was pitching pennies with his mechanics.
Dave[p][Edited by Dave Ware on 01-15-2001]
>>Are you pulling my leg?
But of course.
Scheckter at Mid-Ohio in '73; coming thru turn 11, which was slightly uphhill, apex, downhill...watching him from turn 12, he would appear at the apex, sideways, and it looked like he would lose it on every lap. Never did. Won the race and afterwards was pitching pennies with his mechanics.
Dave[p][Edited by Dave Ware on 01-15-2001]
#27
Don Capps
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- 5,933 posts
- Joined: May 99
Member
Posted 15 January 2001 - 15:47
Allen,
A good queston! Too bad I don't have a good answer, but for material that old and not being used for any fiscal gain, it is probably okay....
Also, I have my longtime research assistent, Karl Oakie, back with me so perhaps I can put the two of us to work on hammering out something and then put it somewhere where the rest of y'all can look at it.
I think that collectively we can probably sort out the sheep and the goats on this one. Let me know what you think.
A good queston! Too bad I don't have a good answer, but for material that old and not being used for any fiscal gain, it is probably okay....
Also, I have my longtime research assistent, Karl Oakie, back with me so perhaps I can put the two of us to work on hammering out something and then put it somewhere where the rest of y'all can look at it.
I think that collectively we can probably sort out the sheep and the goats on this one. Let me know what you think.
#28
Allen Brown
-
- 5,542 posts
- Joined: December 00
Member
Posted 15 January 2001 - 22:27
I've just managed to answer one of my own questions. I quite forgot that I'd bought a 1968 ARRC program on eBay so it was a pleasant surprise when it turned up this morning.
The 1968 ARRC was 22-24 November 1968 and the FA race was on the last day (scheduled for 2:15 pm to be precise).
Entry was:
Car number, Driver, Car, Division
#6, Steve Durst, Vulcan, 3-NE
#1, Brian O'Neill, Lola, 1-SE
#65, Gary Belcher, Lola T-140, 3-SE
#3, Jerry Hansen, Lola, 1-CE
#4, Kurt Reinfold, McKee Mk.8, 2-CE
#5, Stew McMillan, Eisert Spl., 2-CE
#77, Jack Eiteljorg, Lola, 1-MW
#7, Bud Morley, McLaren Mk 2, 2-MW
#41, Eugene Willbanks, Unser/Chev, 5-MW
#8, Ron Grable, Spectre HR-1, 1-NP
#9, Pierre Phillips, Lola T-140, 2-NP
#10, Rex Ramsey, U.S.Shadow I, 4-SP
#66, Nick DioGuardi, WRE, 1-SP
The cars are spelt exactly as shown in the program. The list is in comma-separated form to make it easier for anyone who want to cut-and-paste from here.
Allen
The 1968 ARRC was 22-24 November 1968 and the FA race was on the last day (scheduled for 2:15 pm to be precise).
Entry was:
Car number, Driver, Car, Division
#6, Steve Durst, Vulcan, 3-NE
#1, Brian O'Neill, Lola, 1-SE
#65, Gary Belcher, Lola T-140, 3-SE
#3, Jerry Hansen, Lola, 1-CE
#4, Kurt Reinfold, McKee Mk.8, 2-CE
#5, Stew McMillan, Eisert Spl., 2-CE
#77, Jack Eiteljorg, Lola, 1-MW
#7, Bud Morley, McLaren Mk 2, 2-MW
#41, Eugene Willbanks, Unser/Chev, 5-MW
#8, Ron Grable, Spectre HR-1, 1-NP
#9, Pierre Phillips, Lola T-140, 2-NP
#10, Rex Ramsey, U.S.Shadow I, 4-SP
#66, Nick DioGuardi, WRE, 1-SP
The cars are spelt exactly as shown in the program. The list is in comma-separated form to make it easier for anyone who want to cut-and-paste from here.
Allen
