68 replies to this topic

[genespleen]

A thread to discuss something sobering: which F1 car should be rated as the most inherently dangerous one?

[Disgrace]

Of recent times:

[MonzaF1]

I would say it is the Maki-Ford Coswrth DFV without a doubt.

Just ask Tony Trimmer!

[Sakae]

The one out of driver's control?

[Andrew Hope]

There is a recent (in the last week or so) thread about dangerous racing cars in the Nostalgia Forum for anyone that's interested. Can't be assed to find the exact link but it will be in the first page or two.

I doubt we could ever agree on one car to label the most dangerous, though. Race cars are only as dangerous as you make them. The tracks themselves almost always take the blame, but I am of the belief that if you make the cars safe enough, the tracks don't need to be nearly as safe as the governing bodies make them.

I'd say any car from between 1967-1974 took particularly large balls to get into. Obviously, motor racing has, always will, and always should have an element of danger to it, but in those 7 or 8 years especially. The thought process wasn't really 'I wonder if I'll die', but rather 'I wonder which will hurt more, being skewered by the Armco or barbequed in the fire?'.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

1982 Ferrari 126C2.

The car that Gilles Villenueve died driving and in which Didier Pironi almost died and was so injured he never returned to Formula 1.

The car was fast, winning the WCC even with its original two drivers out of commission. But something about that car was just wrong. Or was the Scuderia just cursed that year?

[Rob G]

I'd say probably the magnesium-bodied Honda RA302 from 1968. John Surtees refused to drive it because of safety concerns, so the team asked Jo Schlesser to drive it. It took just two racing laps before it crashed, ignited, and burned its driver to death.

[Haribo]

Any F1 car with me behind the wheel

[Tufty]

Any F1 car with me behind the wheel

I think most of us here can say that!



Otherwise, I'd have to say anything fitted with the 2004/5 Michelins at Indianapolis, especially if Ralf Schumacher is driving it...

[pUs]

Any of the old era cars I guess, but among the more modern ones the 1986 lowline-Brabham looks quite scary. The driver sits very low and seems quite unprotected.

[Henri Greuter]

1982 Ferrari 126C2.

The car that Gilles Villenueve died driving and in which Didier Pironi almost died and was so injured he never returned to Formula 1.

The car was fast, winning the WCC even with its original two drivers out of commission. But something about that car was just wrong. Or was the Scuderia just cursed that year?

From what I have understood: Both the Pironi and Villeneuve accident were soo eery simular and of a freaky nature (nose digging into the ground in the case of Villeneuve) that it really didn't matter that much. The quality of the chassis itself was never questioned as far as I know. But there were simply certain kind of accidents of which you knwe in that time that it was unlikely that a chassis could withstand such impacts.
I can't recall that the crashworthyness of the C2 was questioned after these accidents. Not like what happened with, for example the Lotus 72 ater Rindt's death.
And don't forget that Pironi had survived two massive crashes in C2's before he had the one in Germany. I recall haveing read that on one occasion Gilles asked journalists to be easy on Pironi since he had a massive crash in testing recently and still coped with the effect of that. I don't know if that was the first or the second of these crashes and/or if the second Pironi crash took place before or after Gilles had his crash.

I can add to that that back in 1989 I had a talk with Mario Andretti about his drives with the 1982 Ferrari. he told me that he knew that Gilles and Didier had crashed in them but that he didn't feel unsafe in the cars and believed it to be safe and had no hesitations to step into the car when he got the invitation.

So I think it is more a cas of: "Jinxed Scuderia"


henri

[anbeck]

The magnesium Honda is evidently a major candidate. But the top spot is closely fought for by some Lotus designs as well. Didn't Rindt say that he'd either die in that car or become world champion? It was hard to imagine that it could do both.

[stevewf1]

Can't provide a link or anything, but I remember reading at the time that some other designers were "appalled" by the way Villeneuve's car broke up. Don't remember if the reaction was because of the construction of the car or the nature of the accident...

[Rob]

I imagine that Perry McCarthy would nominate his Andrea Moda for this accolade.

Although it wasn't so much the car itself as the team that was dangerous.

[stevewf1]

I would say it is the Maki-Ford Coswrth DFV without a doubt.

Just ask Tony Trimmer!

I've read that thing had almost zero protection at the front. In fact, it hardly had a front-end at all.

[farsailor]

From recent times it's gotta be the 99' BAR.

[Les]

The magnesium Honda has been mentioned above & I think it was equalled by the magnesium car that killed Pier Courage. Just mental.

[Peter3hg]

The magnesium Honda has been mentioned above & I think it was equalled by the magnesium car that killed Pier Courage. Just mental.

Courage was killed by a wheel hitting him, but making the entire car essentially highly flammable does seem to be a step too far in safety versus speed.

[Les]

Thanks for that, I was always under the impression it was the magnesium chassis that killed him. Whatever the case these cars seem hopelessly dangerous in retrospect.

[Andy35]

Thanks for that, I was always under the impression it was the magnesium chassis that killed him. Whatever the case these cars seem hopelessly dangerous in retrospect.

Wasn't that a De Tomaso.

Also, wasn't the Le Mans tragedy involving a Mercedes that had magnesium parts?

Andy

[midgrid]

The magnesium Honda is evidently a major candidate. But the top spot is closely fought for by some Lotus designs as well. Didn't Rindt say that he'd either die in that car or become world champion? It was hard to imagine that it could do both.

Bernie Ecclestone, Rindt's manager, told him that if he wanted to survive his career, he should stay with Brabham, but if he wanted to become World Champion, he should join Lotus.

[midgrid]

Also, wasn't the Le Mans tragedy involving a Mercedes that had magnesium parts?

Andy

Yes, the body of the Mercedes 300 SLR was made from a lightweight magnesium alloy.

[Captain Tightpants]

Although it wasn't so much the car itself as the team that was dangerous.

I wouldn't say the team was dangerous - just Sassetti. And he wasn't malicious, just incompetent. Which can sometimes be a worse combination.

[midgrid]

The pre-1988 turbo cars (in which the drivers' feet extended past the front axle line) always look very dangerous to me. Another candidate is the Andrea Moda S921 (Perry McCarthy's chassis, at least), which he found to have a flexing steering arm as he went through Eau Rouge... (EDIT: As Rob has already suggested.)

Edited by midgrid, 04 March 2011 - 14:52.

[Boing 2]

chapman had a disgusting attitude to safety, i've heard stories about him entering cars with cardboard firewalls painted silver.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

1982 Ferrari 126C2.

The car that Gilles Villenueve died driving and in which Didier Pironi almost died and was so injured he never returned to Formula 1.

both crashes were at +200 km/hr.

I've got it: the Osella Ford FA1,



This POS was designed to look like a F1 car. When Cheever broke down in Montreal with it, they hooked the roll bar up to the crane and it pulled it right out.
Cheever then got out of dodge and the FIA instated new safety regs soon after. Crap pay-driver team.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Yes, the body of the Mercedes 300 SLR was made from a lightweight magnesium alloy.

A lot of cars in that era were entirely magnesium, the inflammable alloy.

The 1967 Eagle F1 car was all magnesium, with the driver sitting surrounded by fuel. Gurney opted to not have seat belts so he could get out of the car in a crash.

In retrospect it all seems stupid, it was just expected that 1/3 drivers would die.

Forward to today: one terrorist incident in 2001 leads to $72B in annual security spending for 2,300 deaths.

Since 2001, over 400,000 Americans have died in road crashes, but that's deemed an ok way to die. NHTSA budget, < $800M.

[Francesc]

The Brabham BT60Y.

[WhiteBlue]

1982 Ferrari 126C2. The car that Gilles Villenueve died driving and in which Didier Pironi almost died and was so injured he never returned to Formula 1. The car was fast, winning the WCC even with its original two drivers out of commission. But something about that car was just wrong. Or was the Scuderia just cursed that year?

One has to judge the safety of a racing car versus it's contemporaries and there is the point which makes the 126C2 look bad. The Ferrari had a proper monocoque design and they even made the step to the increased rigidity of aluminium honeycomb with the help of Harvey Postlethwaite.

But compared to the McLaren MP4/1 with moulded carbon fibre honeycomb the design was massively inferior. The MP4/1 had already been out in 1981 and had acquired a rock solid safety record in the hands of Andrea de Cesaris who had crashed or spun it off six times in 14 races. It doesn't sound spectacular for today when drivers manage six offs in one rain race but then every crash could be fatal. De Cesaris got away with it miraculously and the smart money knew that carbon fibre was the next big thing in chassis design.

Had the 126C2 been made from CF Villeneuve could well be alive today. This is why I agree to some safety deficit for the 126C2. The differential in rigidity and strength was so massive that teams would have immediately switched to the new technology by today's standards. Back in 1981 the engineering resources and budgets were nothing compared to the last fifteen years so one has to consider that the speed of innovation was much slower. Hence one can be of two minds about Ferrari's attitude. One thing is clear though, Enzo did not see safety as a very high priority in his racing chassis.

[Andrew Hope]

chapman had a disgusting attitude to safety, i've heard stories about him entering cars with cardboard firewalls painted silver.

To be fair, if your driver is enough of a nutter to drive a tin can full of fuel, what's wrong with the team designing a car like that?

We have to keep things like this in perspective - You don't wake up from a coma to find yourself trapped and thoroughly barbequed in a car on fire, or torn into a thousand pieces splattered among the trees at the Nurburgring, or lying in the cockpit of your car with your head 200 feet down the track because someone didn't install the armco correctly. Any number of a thousand awful things can happen to you in racing, and that's sad, but let's call it out for what it is. Every single driver to ever die in a motor racing can't have any complaints. He chose to be there, knowingly took his risks like every other driver, and sometimes you just have to pay the price. There are plenty of safe sports to play.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if on my 18th birthday someone offered me two choices - live paycheck to paycheck for the next 50 years and then retire to piss around the house doing nothing until I die at age 85 or become a professional racing driver, enjoy 10 years of driving race cars and everything that lifestyle entails, but I'd die in a crash before I was 30, I'll take option B in a heartbeat. I can appreciate I would be in the vast minority in doing that, but that's just the kind of person I am. People who sacrifice all their pleasure and refuse to take any risks in their life and make every decision with a blinding desire just to live long enough for nothing in particular are going to end up old and miserable more often than not. I can just never manage to suspend my disbelief long enough to sympathize with people that think racing should always be working to make itself safer. I think racing should be as safe as it can be, while retaining the spectacle. While keeping an element of danger. That if the cars are safe enough, the marshals trained well enough, the weekend organized well enough, that we don't have to race on soulless parking lots instead of blasts through a forest or desert.

Edited by andrew., 04 March 2011 - 17:41.

[Amphicar]

There is a recent (in the last week or so) thread about dangerous racing cars in the Nostalgia Forum for anyone that's interested. Can't be assed to find the exact link but it will be in the first page or two.

I doubt we could ever agree on one car to label the most dangerous, though. Race cars are only as dangerous as you make them. The tracks themselves almost always take the blame, but I am of the belief that if you make the cars safe enough, the tracks don't need to be nearly as safe as the governing bodies make them.

I'd say any car from between 1967-1974 took particularly large balls to get into. Obviously, motor racing has, always will, and always should have an element of danger to it, but in those 7 or 8 years especially. The thought process wasn't really 'I wonder if I'll die', but rather 'I wonder which will hurt more, being skewered by the Armco or barbequed in the fire?'.

This is the Nostalgia Forum thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=142435

[stevewf1]

Courage was killed by a wheel hitting him, but making the entire car essentially highly flammable does seem to be a step too far in safety versus speed.

According to what I read at the time, his helmet was seen rolling away from the accident scene. Upon impact, his car folded in half and burst into flames. They couldn't put the fire out with conventional means, so they just buried it in the sand - with Courage still in it - and tended to it later.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

I can't speak for anyone else, but if on my 18th birthday someone offered me two choices - live paycheck to paycheck for the next 50 years and then retire to piss around the house doing nothing until I die at age 85 or become a professional racing driver, enjoy 10 years of driving race cars and everything that lifestyle entails, but I'd die in a crash before I was 30, I'll take option B in a heartbeat. I can appreciate I would be in the vast minority in doing that, but that's just the kind of person I am. People who sacrifice all their pleasure and refuse to take any risks in their life and make every decision with a blinding desire just to live long enough for nothing in particular are going to end up old and miserable more often than not.

There's risks, and there's stupid.

@18, join the US army, they'll figure out way to make life interesting.

[OfficeLinebacker]

According to what I read at the time, his helmet was seen rolling away from the accident scene. Upon impact, his car folded in half and burst into flames. They couldn't put the fire out with conventional means, so they just buried it in the sand - with Courage still in it - and tended to it later.

What? Source?

[Obster]

I agree with the 1982 Ferrari. In addition to the Gilles/Didier accidents, iirc when Tambay drove this car he hurt his back just driving it. I remember feeling great dread when Andretti climbed aboard at the end of the season

[TecnoRacing]

Courage was killed by a wheel hitting him, but making the entire car essentially highly flammable does seem to be a step too far in safety versus speed.

That was one saving grace (that Piers was killed by the wheel, and saved from suffering the inferno)


I'd have to say the Lotus 18 should be right up their in the running given it's speed, trickiness, and frailty....

[Victor]

For me any of the F1s with skirts has to be elected as the most dangerous one. A simple stone on the tarmac could lift the skirt and make the car suddenly spin out. I think we were very lucky not to have seen more drivers losing their lives by then.

Considering the C2 more dangerous than any other car of its time is nonsense. GV and DP accidents had nothing to do with the car.

[midgrid]

The Brabham BT45C "Fan Car", which would suck stones and debris from the surface of the track and spit them out into the paths of pursuing cars.

[Radoye]

The Brabham BT45C "Fan Car", which would suck stones and debris from the surface of the track and spit them out into the paths of pursuing cars.

That's actually a myth, deliberately constructed to have the "Fan Cars" banned ASAP since they were simply too dominant.

[Tombstone]

1982 Ferrari 126C2.

The car that Gilles Villenueve died driving and in which Didier Pironi almost died and was so injured he never returned to Formula 1.

The car was fast, winning the WCC even with its original two drivers out of commission. But something about that car was just wrong. Or was the Scuderia just cursed that year?

Not read any other posts, but...

Bull****.

If Villeneuve hadn't overdriven he would not have crashed and not have died.

The gross mismanagement of drivers lies squarely at the feet of old man ferrari.

[Tombstone]

chapman had a disgusting attitude to safety, i've heard stories about him entering cars with cardboard firewalls painted silver.

And having followed F1 for 36 years I have not. I've no doubt CC cut corners, but that is just made-up bull****.

Edited by Tombstone, 04 March 2011 - 22:27.

[midgrid]

That's actually a myth, deliberately constructed to have the "Fan Cars" banned ASAP since they were simply too dominant.

No matter the politics and legal bull that surrounds this car, it's going to have to be stopped for safety reasons. I spent a couple of laps behind the Brabham and my visor was covered in muck. If you get behind the car in the race then he only has to drive over the dirt and you're done for. If it rains it would be impossible to get past. I don't want somebody to have to get a bolt in the head or stuck throttles at the end of the straight before anybody does anything about it.

If the track is clean it's not too bad, but if the car goes off-line, or in the wet, it would be impossible.

(Both quotations from Autocourse.)

Exaggerated perhaps, but I think it was a legitimate concern.

[stevewf1]

What? Source?

Rob Walker. Road & Track magazine.

Edit: I believe that's where I read the gory details of the Courage accident. I don't make stuff up and I wouldn't post if I weren't pretty darn sure. I know memory does fade over time, but I'm certain I've seen the key details of that accident description I gave in print...

Edited by stevewf1, 05 March 2011 - 13:26.

[JacnGille]

Any car that Andrea de Cesaris was driving.




sorry, couldn't resist.

[stevewf1]

And having followed F1 for 36 years I have not. I've no doubt CC cut corners, but that is just made-up bull****.

Never heard that bit about the cardboard, but if anyone has ever read Graham Hill's book Life at the Limit, there did seem to be an awful lot of "flimsiness" in the cars back in those days, Lotus certainly included.

Edited by stevewf1, 05 March 2011 - 01:46.

[Louis Mr. F1]

The pre-1988 turbo cars (in which the drivers' feet extended past the front axle line) always look very dangerous to me. Another candidate is the Andrea Moda S921 (Perry McCarthy's chassis, at least), which he found to have a flexing steering arm as he went through Eau Rouge... (EDIT: As Rob has already suggested.)

i was going to post the exact same incident of Perry McCarthy - i mean, the team knew something was wrong with the steering arm, yet they still sent him out nearly killing him in the process.

i just re-read his book last night, so this is fresh in my mind.

[stevewf1]

It was the steering rack... After McCarthy had his "little moment" at Eau Rouge, he complained to team owner/manager Andrea Sassetti that he thought the steering rack was flexing...

"Yes, Perry, we know".
"You know?".
"Yes, we tried it on Roberto's car last week, and we see this problem then".
"So then, of course, you put it on my car!".
"That's right".

These are quotes from McCarthy's book Flat Out Flat Broke.

(Roberto referring to team-mate Roberto Moreno)

A side note: Having read this book, and this particular incident aside, I'm of the opinion that Perry McCarthy in any F1 car automatically made that car dangerous, but that's just me...

[Crafty]

A side note: Having read this book, and this particular incident aside, I'm of the opinion that Perry McCarthy in any F1 car automatically made that car dangerous, but that's just me...

I did giggle at the benetton testing bit when Symonds asked if he had a "little" moment

[DarthRonzo]

Lotus 56B 1971 Pratt & Whitney

Emerson said it was impossible to stop the car

http://www.f1technic...t/f1db/cars/271

Edited by DarthRonzo, 05 March 2011 - 15:36.

[ezequiel]

Wasn't that a De Tomaso.

Also, wasn't the Le Mans tragedy involving a Mercedes that had magnesium parts?

Andy

Indeed, a De Tomaso. Some years before Nasif Estéfano invested all his money to run the De Tomaso in F1 only to be let down by an unreliable and dangerous-driving car.