52 replies to this topic

[Powersteer]

A Bugatti that some believe to be the greatest racing car of all time....Is it the Bugatti EB35???? Also i would like to know more about Jean Bugatti's career.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Power,

I hope you don't mind me calling you by your first name.;)

Please try to go to the site below and if you then still have questions, give me a jingle.

http://homepage.mac....jacob/InfoHunt/

[dbw]

good observation...check out hans etzrodt's gp winners ,1926 thru 1932 or so..[maybe even a bit of 33-34]...and it doesn't even mention the 1-2-3 bugatti finishes!!!!

[Powersteer]

Thanks a million guys, i could use these sites for even more info, its brain feeeding time.

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by dbw
good observation...check out hans etzrodt's gp winners ,1926 thru 1932 or so..[maybe even a bit of 33-34]...and it doesn't even mention the 1-2-3 bugatti finishes!!!!

When there was no Alfa in the race ;)

[dbw]

uh,yeah..let's see ..1925 thru 1932; alfa,outright wins,36...bugatti,outright wins,113...hmmm,seems until alfa 86ed the old p2 they just couldn't do much...[or as patrick italiano suggests,alfa just couldn't get a car on the starting grid for the better part of 7 years... fiat transporters perhaps??]

[David McKinney]

Bugatti's real trick of course was to sell GP cars to anyone who wanted one. By the time the various GP formulae had collapsed and races were run to libre regs, everyone had a Bugatti. Alfas had to get to the Monza model to have a real challenger, and there just weren't enough Maseratis or Mercedes around to make much difference

[Felix Muelas]

Hans,

Thanks for pointing us in the right direction! A big thanks, actually

Do you feel tempted to start here a "hunting" thread on Juan Zanelli?;)

Félix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Felix,

You mean the Chilean born Bugatti driver Juan Zanelli?;)

All I know is that he was living in Spain but was born in Chile. In the late twenties, he drove with a Spanish license. He started out racing a Fiat in 1926 and later purchased a Bugatti. I think he became famous after he won the first Grand Prix Bugatti in 1929, a handicap race only for Bugatti cars. He repeated that victory the following year on the second Grand Prix Bugatti at Le Mans. During 1931, he won the European Mountain Championship for racing cars, driving a 2.8-liter, 8-cylinder Nacional-Pescara and beat his teammate, the Spaniard Esteban Tort, who came second in the championship on the same type of car. With an Alfa Romeo Monza he won the 1933 Penya Rhin GP at Montjuich Park. He also drove a yellow 3-liter Maserati, but after 1936, he was not seen any more.

What happened, did he retire?
What do we know about his driving before 1929?
When was he born?
What happened to him?
Does anybody know?

[Ray Bell]

And Estaban Tort? What of him?

Come on Hans, stop this!

Have you become a show-off? Or is it just one way you can lead people on to give you more information to satisfy your insatiable appetite?

By the way, I note there are no Australian races on the website, are they not worthy of mention?

[Felix Muelas]

Hans

I am working on it. Give me a couple of days. Meanwhile, where did you get the info that he raced prior to 1929 AND with a Fiat?
;)
Felix

[Ray Bell]

I can hear the 'Ve Haf our sources...' from here!

How about the Australian races, Hans?

[Zawed]

Was'nt it Ettore Bugatti who when replying to some comments about the brakes on his car said "I make my cars to go, not stop"??

[dbw]

this quote was attributed to him.however the funny thing is that bugs in general have pretty good brakes and gp cars have excellent ones...go figure.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Felix,
Information about Zanelli is from an article by Cyril Posthumus in GN Georgano's The Encyclopaedia of MOTOR SPORT..."He began racing in 1926 with a Fiat,"... I searched my records but find nothing to back this up.

Do you have any inkling of what happened to Esteban Tort? Ray was curious. I only know that Tort drove in 1933 and 1934 at the Penya Rhin GP where he retired both times, driving the Nacional Pescara.




Ray,
Since neither you nor I seem to know much about Esteban Tort, hopefully Felix or somebody else will be able to shed more light on this subject.

I really was looking forward to a productive contribution from you, related to the Bugatti subjet. Maybe I expected too much and I am sorry about my error. Please accept my humble apologies.

[desmo]

I found a photo of Tort.

http://www.escuderia.com/file001h.jpg

Captioned, "Esteban Tort durante La Rabassada 1931"

[dbw]

quite a penetrating stare,but he's not in a bugatti.

[jarama]

dbw,

quite possibly, in this picture Esteban Tort is at the wheel of a Nacional Pescara.

[jarama]

Hans,

a few data and results about Esteban Tort and Juan Zanelli.


Esteban Tort was born in Barcelona.
17-May or 13-July-30, Rabassada Hillclimb, 1st, Alfa Romeo 2-litre
17-May-31, Rabassada Hillclimb, 2nd, Nacional Pescara 2-litre (1st was Rudi Carracciola)
18,25 or 28-May-33, Rabassada Hillclimb, 1st, Nacional Pescara 3-litre, 8 cyl. (his race time remained unbeaten until... 1954)
25-June-33, Penya Rhin GP, Montjuïc, Nacional Pescara 2.9-litre, DNF (engine, lap 7)
17-June-34, Penya Rhin GP, Montjuïc, Nacional Pescara 3-litre, DNF (oil leakage, lap 7)

Some sources give him as runner-up in the '31 Euro Hillclimb Championship to his tem-mate Juan Zanelli.


Juan Zanelli was xilean-born, though with swiss-xilean citizenship, arrived at Europe in 1926 and died in France, 1942.

17-May-31, Rabassada Hillclimb, 3rd, Nacional Pescara

'31 European Hillclimb Champion

25-June-33, Penya Rhin GP, Montjuïc, 1st, Alfa Romeo Monza 2.3-litre

Previously to the '34 Penya Rhin GP, held on 17 June, JZ was 2nd at the La Turbie and Val de Cuech HC's and 1st at the Les Alpilles and Mount Faron HC's, all of them driving for Nacional Pescara.

17-June-34, Penya Rhin GP, Montjuïc, 4th, Alfa Romeo Monza 2.6-litre.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Jarama,
Thank you for digging up all this information. Interesting that you also cannot find any racing activities for Zanelli before 1929 where he might have raced in touring or sports cars.

[jarama]

Hans,

hopefully Felix can enlighten us with more info on this drivers.

[dbw]

my books shows zanelli appearing on the bugatti scene in 1929 as an entrant in the "second bugatti grand prix"[a race put on by bugatti himself for the amusement of his customers and the good press of more bugatti wins!]. zanelli finished first after 3 hrs,13 min at an average of 78 m/h.[unblown t35,no chassis#shown]for this effort he won a t35tc[chassis 4939].in 1930 he entered the third bugatti gp .a disaster involving bad weather and a small field,zanelli won again[with helle-nice flagged off in third position!]aparently awash in bugattis,he is shown as the buyer,in aug,1930, of a t35tc[chassis4950]delivered directly from the factory.the immediate disposition of this and his other bugs are unknown to me...often these cars were bought and sold frequently amongst the affluent amateur racers.
an interesting note...zanelli's third car,4950, was one of the three factory monaco entries in 1930[4948,4949,4950].they ran there as 2 liter t35c's and shortly after the race,converted to 2.3-t35tc[or t35b as they are more commonly known]they were disposed of as such;
4948-von morgan,berlin....now owned by myself
4949-prince salkowitz,prague..now still apparently in prague
4950-zanelli,paris..ex st.john.uk...now in a private collection in northern calif,less then a 2 hour drive from where i live!!!
it is also interesting to note that it was not uncommon for bugatti to sell his ex team cars to favored privateers directly, where "production" gp's were sold thru showrooms or agents..[as often as not,current or ex team drivers and family friends]
....must have been quite a place and time to have lived...


a quick addition;zanelli finished third at pau in 1930[bugatti t35b,[chassis # unknown][p][Edited by dbw on 02-04-2001]

[dbw]

in my reviewing of the literature for my previous post, i found a photo of a driver standing next to mr bugatti at the 1929 bugatti grand prix..this guy is a dead ringer for the photo of "tort"as posted by desmo....he is called out as"sabipa"[e. charavel]but the caption is a bit ambiguous as it also mentions zanelli!..try "grand prix bugatti"conway,first edition, page 100,fig 10.7....i can type[barely] but cannot scan..

another photo.."bugatti les pur sang des automoiles" conway, 4th edition..page 188 shows a clear view of "sabipa"[only with a fedora] looks like a twin to me...[p][Edited by dbw on 02-04-2001]

[David McKinney]

OT I know, but it can be noted that the 1931 European Mountain Championship was the high point in the careers of Zanelli, Tort and Nacional-Pescara. The Spanish team had a considerable advantage over the competition that year: they took the trouble of registering for the championship. So while the fastest times in the individual rounds went to the likes of former title-holders Caracciola and Stuck, each with an SSKL Mercedes-Benz, and Bugatti drivers Achille Varzi, H J von Morgen etc, the Nacional-Pescara drivers took most of the points. Caracciola was fastest at Rabassada, Zbraslav-Jiloviste and Tatra, while Zanelli was fastest in only one round (Kesselberg), backed by a third, a fourth, and a sixth. But he was awarded maximum points on each of those occasions.
It's a bit like the Ferrari, McLaren, Jordan and Williams teams not being allowed to score any points in last year's world championship.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
... you also cannot find any racing activities for Zanelli before 1929 ...

Well, there might be a reason for that...quite obvious!

I knew I had seen a visiting card of Zanelli. I didn´t know where, but I was adamant about it. As I had the vague recollection that he had something to do with the diplomats, so finding it became a major issue when this thread started, and I wanted to collect some info on him.
After a couple of hours, I finally (more by deduction than by any other method) found it. It´s printed on the Etancelin book that I quoted on the thread about International Racing Colours.
But then I did something that I do not think I had done any of the previous times I was browsing through the book : I read it!
More or less, it says in French : "Willing to keep a souvenir of my first race, I will be happy to know whether you will be prepared to swap the trophy against the money that I have just received".

There is no comment to the content of this card on the book itself and the inclussion of the same must be related to the race where it´s printed : Le Prix du Conseil General de l´Automobile Club d´Antibes -Juan-Les-Pins, that took place the day before the II Grand Prix d´Antibes Juan-Les-Pins, i.e. 31st March 1929.
Etancelin with his Bugatti 2 litres won the race (25 laps of the track, around 101 kms, in 1hr 22 min 53s) from Juan E. Zanelli (in a similar car), Signoret with a Salmson 1100, Jourdan in another Salmson and Kreutznacht with a Bugatti.

If what Juan Zanelli writes on his own card is accurate, it might mean that that had been his first race...

I let you people coment on the content of the card itself...

PS : As Jarama has been so kind -thank you- as to post the basic known racing records of both Zanelli and Tort, I´m left with the task of the details that, although I don´t know if I will be able to, I´m definitely going to enjoy
I´ll post a picture -that jarama also has- of Zanelli, for the sake of good order!




Félix Muelas

[jarama]

Hans,

In the Sixth Edition of the book "Ferrari" (Hans Tanner and Doug Nye, Guild Publishing), there's a brief reference about Zanelli:

"While the new Scuderia went to war in 1930, Mr Ferrari himself continued to race on rare occasions only. He was third at Alessandria behind Varzi and Zanelli..."

There's no mention on the cars they were driving in this race.

[jarama]

Hans,

There are a pair of brief mentions in the "Mountainclimbs" chapter of the book "Racing the Silver Arrows" (Chris Nixon, Osprey Publishing Limited).

The first mention only lists him as '31 European Champion as we all know, while the second gives Juan Zanelli -still driving the Nacional Pescara- as runner-up to Hans Stuck at the '35 Kesselberg Hillclimb.

[fines]

Originally posted by Zawed
Was'nt it Ettore Bugatti who when replying to some comments about the brakes on his car said "I make my cars to go, not stop"??

As far as I know it was Alexandre Darracq who first made that famous quip.

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by jarama
There's no mention on the cars they were driving in this race.

But we can safely assume, thanks to the info provided by dbw that Zanelli was driving the Bugatti "t35tc[chassis 4939"...

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Felix,
Information about Zanelli is from an article by Cyril Posthumus in GN Georgano's The Encyclopaedia of MOTOR SPORT

Yep, Hans, sorry I overlooked Georgano!

Actually I found a similar remark in a spanish source but now I have the strange feeling that the anonymous author of that one might have had Georgano and/or CP at hand...;)

Felix

[Hans Etzrodt]

Thank you all for your stimulating contributions. It seems we have another good thread going here. I found the following at the Jacob's Bugatti Pages:
http://homepage.mac....Hunt/Q-005.html
Maybe somebody can trade our information about the driver Zanelli with his grandson Adrien. If lucky we might find out Juan Zanelli's birthdate, racing information between 1926 and 1929 and his whereabouts after 1936. Who is willing to tackle this job, please? I am rather busy at present but might help with digging up more races he did with Alfa Romeo and Maserati.

[Roger Clark]

Autosport pblished an article by Cyril Posthumus about the Nacional Pescara in December 1952. It says that Zanelli won the racing car class of the 1931 European mountain championship but that Caracciola won the sports car class. This seems to contradict the information posted by David McKinney. apparantly if the two classes had been combined Caracciola would have won.

It includes te same picture of Tort as posted by desmo.

It also says that the cars were of 3-litres rather than 2.8 stated by Hans. It give the cylinder dimensions as 72.2x90mm, which I make 2947cc. THe cylinder dimensions are confirmed by an article in January 1953 "The Racing Cars of Spain" by S Pozzoli and G Crombac.

[dbw]

more zanelli poop;" chassis#4939/t35b;registered 3781 NV on 20 june 1929 in the name of ettore bugatti automobiles molsheim. prepared for the french grand prix held on 30 june 1929 at le mans and carrying,acording to regulations in force,14 kg of fuel per 100 km[20 mpg]. on 2 june 1929,juan zanelli,won the 2ed bugatti grand prix with a t35c[chassis 4920] purchased on the morning of the race from baron philippe de rothschild.the first prize was a racing car-4939- which was raced at the french grand prix driven by divo and then was rebodied before being presented to zanelli.it was registered on 16 july 1929 in the name of juan zanelli,vice consul of chile,68 boulevard de cimiez,nice as 9251 BA"
also mentioned;4939 ran at monaco,6 april 1930 by zanelli but retired...also 15 oct 1930 at san sebastian[no outcome given]...and a major shunt at mont agel,1930.
all above from raffaelli.
it also seems that chassis 4920,purchased on 2 june 1929 was sold by zanelli in feb. 1930..it later became infamous in the hands of edouard grammont["eddoura"]as one of the most throughly wrecked bugs ever recorded[driver did not survive..should we add him to"the list"???]

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
...Zanelli won the racing car class of the 1931 European mountain championship but that Caracciola won the sports car class. This seems to contradict the information posted by David McKinney. apparantly if the two classes had been combined Caracciola would have won...]

The 1931 European Mountain Championship was actually two championships; one for racing cars and one for sports cars, but the cars ran the same day. Sports cars were often faster than the racing cars. That did not effect the individual drivers' championship points but there was an extra prize and trophy for fastest time of the day.

The A.I.A.C.R. had planned for a 12-race series but since Malchamps (B), Bernina (CH), Semmering (A) and Feleac ® were cancelled, there were just eight races left.

(E) Rabassada
(CS) Zbraslav-Jiloviste
(D) Kesselberg
(I) Susa-Mont Cenisio
(GB) Shelsley-Walsh
(PL) Tatra Mountain
(F) Mont Ventoux
(H) Svab Mountain

5 points = 1st place finisher
4 points = 2nd place finisher
3 points = 3rd place finisher
2 points = every other finisher
1 point . = every non finisher
0 point . = non starters

Points for racing car class:
Zanelli: 4 - 2 - 5 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 3 - 0 = 18
E. Tort: 5 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 2 - 0 = 13
M.Arco: 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 5 - 0 - 5 = 12

Points for sports car class:
Cacacciola: 5 - 5 - 5 - 0 - 0 - 5 - 5 - 5 = 30
O. Spandl : 0 - 4 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 8
F. Schmidt: 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 4 - 0 - 0 = 6

Originally posted by Roger Clark
...It also says that the cars were of 3-litres rather than 2.8 stated by Hans. It give the cylinder dimensions as 72.2x90mm, which I make 2947cc...

Roger,
You are absolutely right. I copied the mistake from Erwin Tragatsch Das große Rennfahrerbuch and just corrected my book. Thank you.

[Ray Bell]

I think, Hans, if you were asking me to add to this thread, that I would defer as I know all too little about the subject. If you were saying you were counting on me to put Australian races on the web, rather than you have the major ones (or at least the AGP) included in your pages on Leif's site, I would still ask 'why?'

Not meaning to be difficult, but what are your parameters for the inclusion of races?

[Hans Etzrodt]

Ray, this here is a Bugatti thread. Please place your question on the other thread, which Leif started and I will answer there. Thank you.

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by dbw
...zanelli's third car,4950, was one of the three factory monaco entries in 1930[4948,4949,4950].they ran there as 2 liter t35c's and shortly after the race,converted to 2.3-t35tc[or t35b as they are more commonly known]they were disposed of as such;
4948-von morgan,berlin....now owned by myself
4949-prince salkowitz,prague..now still apparently in prague
4950-zanelli,paris..ex st.john.uk...now in a private collection in northern calif,less then a 2 hour drive from where i live!!!

With the Monaco Historique coming up, a Bugatti question...if, at the 1930 Monaco GP, 4948 was driven by Bouriat, who drove 4949? Chiron? "Williams"?

Vince H

[Rob G]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
With the Monaco Historique coming up, a Bugatti question...if, at the 1930 Monaco GP, 4948 was driven by Bouriat, who drove 4949? Chiron? "Williams"?

Chiron. Williams drove 4950.

[raceannouncer2003]

Boy, that was fast! Thanks very much, Rob. (By the way, "Go Canucks!")

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

[coco]

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
Felix,

You mean the Chilean born Bugatti driver Juan Zanelli?;)

He also drove a yellow 3-liter Maserati, but after 1936, he was not seen any more.

If it was a 3-Liter Maserati I believe it was the yellow 8CM of Villapadierna, s/n 3020. What race do you have with him in that car?

Ciao!
Walter

[D-Type]

Rather than start a new thread this seems a good old one to revive.

At Goodwood I bought this model of a Bugatti. On the base it ays "Bugatti T35B, Grand Prix Sport 1928, Louis Chiron".

The description is wrong. The 1928 GP de l'ACF was for sports cars and Chiron was number 36. So it clearly isn't that, particularly as it's an open wheeler without mudguards and lights. On Leif Snellman's site Hans Etztrodt lists him as driving a Type 35C throughout the 1928 season except for a Type 35B for the Marne GP at Reims. The "2" of the race number has the closed top loop that some Continental signwriters used. A book I have includes a picture (a painting) of Chiron in the 1928 Rome GP with that type of number 24. But Leif has him in a 35C in Rome. As the 35B and 35C were virtually identical externally, I'm happy to call it the Rome GP car. But I would like to know what it is meant to depict.

Does anyone have any ideas?


On a vaguely related theme, in his Racing Car Pocketbook Denis Jenkinson gives the wheel base of the T35 as 7ft 10.5ins (ie 2.4m) and the T59 as 8ft 10in (ie 2.69m). This seems a big difference. Are the figures correct?

Edited by D-Type, 02 October 2010 - 00:47.

[David Birchall]

Both Dumont and Conway give the wheelbase of the T59 as 2.6M.
The T35/37/51 as 2.4M.

As for the imperial equivalent--I fart in their general direction! As Bugatti is rumoured to have said.

Edited by David Birchall, 02 October 2010 - 02:26.

[Rob G]

The description is wrong. The 1928 GP de l'ACF was for sports cars and Chiron was number 36. So it clearly isn't that, particularly as it's an open wheeler without mudguards and lights. On Leif Snellman's site Hans Etztrodt lists him as driving a Type 35C throughout the 1928 season except for a Type 35B for the Marne GP at Reims. The "2" of the race number has the closed top loop that some Continental signwriters used. A book I have includes a picture (a painting) of Chiron in the 1928 Rome GP with that type of number 24. But Leif has him in a 35C in Rome. As the 35B and 35C were virtually identical externally, I'm happy to call it the Rome GP car. But I would like to know what it is meant to depict.

According to The Black Book, Chiron's 1928 Rome GP car was number 2. Car 24 was Mario Lepori's privately-entered 35B. Chiron may or may not have driven a 35C numbered 24 at Rome in 1930, when he took over Bouriat's car after his own car failed. Bouriat's car is listed as car 24, but the authors expressed doubt that this is correct.

[Vitesse2]

In my experience those looped 2s are a purely French phenomenon, which would rule out Rome. Without having done a picture search, some possibilities would be Étancelin at Antibes in 1929, Étancelin at Monaco in 1930, Hiercourt at Oran in 1930 or 'Sabipa' at Dieppe in 1930. No blue #24 Bugattis in French events in 1928.

[D-Type]

Thanks folks, I found the Rome GP painting I was referring to on the net.

Edited by D-Type, 02 October 2010 - 22:17.

[monoposto]

Thanks folks, I found the Rome GP painting I was referring to on the net.

I suggest this model is meant to depict the 1927 Targa Florio winning T.35C of Emilio Materassi

The only photograph I have is a side-on one, and it shows it as No. 24 and with the spare wheel. I cannot confirm the closed loop to the number "2" though.

The car differs from the model in having a mesh protector to the radiator and the "F" letter on the tail is in white. The photograph is not clear enough to see a registration number on the tail.

[Michael Müller]

I’m afraid that too much attention is given here to the authencity of a low-budget model.
The description says “as raced by Louis Chiron”, which imho means that also Chiron raced the same or similar model but not the same car.

The registration 1974-NV was a Molsheim one and belonged to Divo’s 1929 Targa Florio winning car (T35C #4923 r/n 10). AFAIK the new French registration system (with NV for Bas Rhin) started only in October 1928, before the department letter was J (up to J4).

The GP Rome racing numbers 1 to 30 as shown in various statistics are nonsens, Sheldon used them as running numbers due to non-availability of real race numbers. I have a photo of Nuvolari with #6 (not 7), and of Countess Einsiedel with #46 (not 3). Unfortunately no photo of Chiron, but he could well had #24. I’m quite sure that the painting has been inspired by a real photo. And if such photo indeed shows the registration 1974-NV I would be highly surprised, but nothing is impossible.

[Rob G]

The GP Rome racing numbers 1 to 30 as shown in various statistics are nonsens, Sheldon used them as running numbers due to non-availability of real race numbers. I have a photo of Nuvolari with #6 (not 7), and of Countess Einsiedel with #46 (not 3).

That's interesting. In most cases Sheldon italicized the numbers if they were unknown car numbers, and he must not have noticed his error when he published the Addendum.

He does have Brilli-Peri listed as a factory entry, but according to the painting the car was red. Was Brilli-Peri in fact a works entry, and if so, how many times have the works Bugattis been painted anything other than French blue?

[Michael Müller]

Not all works entries had been real and full ones. Williams-Grover (T35C #4891 reg. 8602-M12) and Brilli-Peri (T35C #4911) at that time had own cars, and Chiron raced the Nerka/Hoffmann cars (T35B #4817 reg. 8354-M10, T35C #4890 reg. 5031-J4). However, Chiron and Williams from time to time had been given also full works cars. The system was flexible, everything from full private entry to full works entry was negotiated. It included not only service, transport, and paperwork, but also special discounts on cars - for captive use or resale. It was not unusual that somebody bought a Bugatti GP under the condition that he will get works service for specific races, or a driver rented a car with the option to buy it after the race, the better the result - the higher the discount. Winning cars often had been sold on the spot, even at a premium on the list price.
I also would not overvalue the red color of the Brilli-Peri car, first of all it's a painting only, and the color rule was not as strict as often said.

[HistoryFan]

Bugatti finished the Spanish Grand Prix on 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 - that must be record?