16613 replies to this topic

[steferrari]

This week's italian magazine Autosprint: 2012 Ferrari with a dolphin nose (see picture).

[AlexS]

Quote

What's up with Ferrari doing all these self-proclamations in public that 2012 car would so innovative and aggressive?

Insecurity.

[ConsiderAndGo]

steferrari, on Oct 5 2011, 20:01, said:

This week's italian magazine Autosprint: 2012 Ferrari with a dolphin nose (see picture).

Ha that looks hideous !

[Ferrari2183]

Haha. Dolphin nose... No f@cking way! Only way that would work is if they get rid of the front wing pylons and have the nose connected to the wing like the cars of the 80's and early 90's.

Ferrari F12 Delfino

[SpaMaster]

sawyer_si, on Oct 5 2011, 06:32, said:

Well they ended up behind McLaren for one point, even if they only had one real driver for half of the season. With Massa in the second Ferrari they would've been comfortably third...

One point or half point, they were the 4th fastest team that year, and they were way off the pace of the top 2 teams. You can't say that even when Ferrari produce crap cars they are 2nd or 3rd fastest at worst. Ferrari was missing Massa that year? Kovalainen was not doing much in that McLaren for two years either. You can't give out a feeling that 'even our worst productions are 2nd best, etc". If you produce crap cars, it could be really bad..

[TheBunk]

Ferrari2183, on Oct 5 2011, 01:04, said:

Well, I just watched the Scuderia Racing News and the printed article doesn't do the interview with Tombazi any justice. He actually confirms that the car is "quite very" visually different to previous iterations (and understands Domenicali's 'wow' reaction) and explains that they have been a lot less conservative with the structural considerations of the car in order for the whole car to be more aerodynamically efficient (suspension integration, exhausts etc...). He also says that his goal was not to create interesting or good looking shapes but rather a car that will be fast.

He also says that it is imperative that they are not caught in a situation where they are not playing catch up with regard to innovations. All in all it sounded quite positive but you never know what the others might conjure up.

Sounds promising. Id like to see it first before I believe it.

[Clay]

SpaMaster, on Oct 5 2011, 00:40, said:

What was 2009? Super-crap?

i wouldnt call super-crap to a car that allowed kimi to get some podiums and even a win.
anyway, and just to clear it out taking into account how people love to take others' posts out of context, im not saying it was a very good car either.
tho i think ferrari may have gotten more podiums if kimi had got the car to his licking also before massa's accident.

About 2012 cat i really hope those who imply ferrari are selling smoke are really wrong.

Edited by Clay, 05 October 2011 - 20:22.

[AlexS]

Quote

lot less conservative with the structural considerations of the car

I am just getting the vibes of a replay of Claude Midgeot failed double bottom Ferrari F92A...

[SCUDmissile]

I don't think we will see a dolphin nose. I mean iirc it has neve really worked well when I was implemented and it looks ugly as well.

I do wonder what they mean by 'structural changes for aero development' though

[Andy865]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 5 2011, 21:44, said:

I don't think we will see a dolphin nose. I mean iirc it has neve really worked well when I was implemented and it looks ugly as well.

I do wonder what they mean by 'structural changes for aero development' though

Knocking the windtunnel down after seeing the first on-track numbers?
(A wee jest, dont shoot!! )

[cilurnum]

Did you know Ferrari's wind tunnel was built at a 45 degree angle at Montezemelo's request for planning reasons?

[F.M.]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 5 2011, 21:44, said:

I don't think we will see a dolphin nose. I mean iirc it has neve really worked well when I was implemented and it looks ugly as well.

I do wonder what they mean by 'structural changes for aero development' though

I think they mean what Newey does: He (and his team) creates an aero shape, and the other departments just have to figure out how to get all the stuff in the package. Like KERS this year, Newey didn't want to make the body wider, so KERS had to be fitted at a less conventional place.
So sacrifices will be made/challenges created to achieve a better aero

[JSDSKI]

'...structural changes...'

Means the hard points (engine / tran, suspension, wing mounting points) and resulting chassis configuration must be changed to match the new shape layouts (as F. M. indicated above). Aero is the dominating factor. This usually, in turn, leads to redesigned transmission or engine cases, steering racks, cooling, brakes packaging.

In short - it'll all be new and shiny. Hopefully very fast.

[AlexS]

Can lead also to lack of structural rigidity that plagued F92A.

[EdwardCullen]

cilurnum, on Oct 5 2011, 22:29, said:

Did you know Ferrari's wind tunnel was built at a 45 degree angle at Montezemelo's request for planning reasons?

what?, any source for that?
thats insane if true.

[SCUDmissile]

it is true but it didn't give them many problems 2000- 2008

[EdwardCullen]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 5 2011, 17:16, said:

Emilio Botin has retired??????

[toxicfusion]

ConsiderAndGo, on Oct 5 2011, 20:18, said:

Ha that looks hideous !

because its on a car it wasn't designed for, any new nose will change how struts are shaped.

[KirilVarbanov]

I don't think we will see Dolphin like nose.

Two thoughts are flowing around: the rules for 2012 still haven't been finalized and published, so it doesn't make sense to send the chassis to production (something which I was quoting earlier, from Jose Luis on twitter), or, Fry is already aware of the rules and gave the green light.

Next is the possible change of Pirelli compound - the first new tests will be at Abu Dhabi, AFAIR, so it makes sense to work only on aero stuff like wings and not chassis, etc core components, until the tire compounds are finalized. Imagine a change introduced by Pirelli couple of weeks prior to testing interval - it may render the 2012 development useless.

What are the latest wind tunnel speculations - Ferrari's own (fixed/calibrated) or Toyota's at Cologne?

[SCUDmissile]

kvarbanov, on Oct 6 2011, 15:35, said:

I don't think we will see Dolphin like nose.

Two thoughts are flowing around: the rules for 2012 still haven't been finalized and published, so it doesn't make sense to send the chassis to production (something which I was quoting earlier, from Jose Luis on twitter), or, Fry is already aware of the rules and gave the green light.

Next is the possible change of Pirelli compound - the first new tests will be at Abu Dhabi, AFAIR, so it makes sense to work only on aero stuff like wings and not chassis, etc core components, until the tire compounds are finalized. Imagine a change introduced by Pirelli couple of weeks prior to testing interval - it may render the 2012 development useless.

What are the latest wind tunnel speculations - Ferrari's own (fixed/calibrated) or Toyota's at Cologne?

there is an article that says that final modifications will take place around now, so we may be getting some news on that soon.

anyhow,

James Allen on Nikolas Tombazis Interview and 2012 car.

Quote

Ferrari chief designer Nikolas Tombazis has promised a more aggressive car from the Scuderia next season, as it looks to close the gap to the pace setting Red Bull.

Over the winter of 2010/11 Ferrari went too conservative under the technical leadership of Aldo Costa, leaving some ideas untested in a generally risk averse strategy. McLaren went the opposite way with initially calamitous consequences, of the kind Costa was trying to avoid, but they changed direction before the first race and got the car on track. However they, like Ferrari, have been playing catch up all year.

Meanwhile Red Bull had the best aerodynamics package, building on the pre-double diffuser design concept it launched in 2009 and improving all areas of the car. It has also been able to exploit the Pirelli tyres better than the opposition, particularly in qualifying. And with the pace of the car and front row grid slots, it has been able to make the race strategies work out pretty much every time.

For 2012 then, Tombazis has opened up some more aggressive avenues of design and development which had been closed off by Costa. “A more aggressive approach has come about as the result of the analysis we carried out of the defeats we suffered over the past few years. We realised we had been a bit too conservative and had closed our minds to some strands of development. For the new car we have sanctioned and more aggressive working method on the aerodynamic front,” he said, explaining that some long lead time parts are already in production for the 2012 car.
The rules don’t change much for next year apart from one key area – the blown diffusers will be banned and this will lose the cars a significant amount of downforce. Adapting and overcoming in that area will be the key to success in 2012.

Tombazis says that the team will experiment with some new solutions aimed at the 2012 design during the remaining races of this year, for example they plan to test out a new front wing with a different functionality to the current one.
“We have to try to learn as much as possible straight away,” says Tombazis. “Obviously we hope that these solutions will also be positive for these races.

“I think that visually, the new car is fairly different to its predecessor but if it has a wow factor, as our team principal Stefano Domenicali thought, when he first saw the model, then I hope the wow factor will also be evident from the results. We have set ourselves ambitious targets, which we intend to maintain and so, on this front, I am quite optimistic.”

Meanwhile influential Italian sports daily La Gazzetta dello Sport reports today that the senior management at Ferrari are “irritated” by race engineer Rob Smedley’s choice of words over the radio to Felipe Massa, where he called on him to “destroy” Lewis Hamilton’s race.

Many fans feel that this story is a mountain being made out of a molehill by the British tabloid press to support their man Lewis Hamilton, who is facing criticism from other drivers. And there may be some truth to that.

However Gazzetta reports that the bosses at Ferrari may not feel inclined to forgive him a second time, after he landed them in front of the FIA World Council over the team orders issue at Hockenheim last year. Ferrari was exonerated on that occasion and the rules banning team orders were dropped from the F1 Sporting Regulations.

Smedley is highly regarded by other teams’ technical directors and would have a choice of UK based jobs were he to leave Ferrari.

most of it isnt anything new, but i found the bolded parts very interesting. also, i plan to watch FP1 and 2 live now, and keep my eyes peeled for these new parts, although they would not be doing that great a job if i managed to see it.

new concept of front wing, eh?

[toxicfusion]

kvarbanov, on Oct 6 2011, 15:35, said:

Next is the possible change of Pirelli compound - the first new tests will be at Abu Dhabi, AFAIR, so it makes sense to work only on aero stuff like wings and not chassis, etc core components, until the tire compounds are finalized. Imagine a change introduced by Pirelli couple of weeks prior to testing interval - it may render the 2012 development useless.

They'll test anything they consider worth it, even internals because it generates data that can be compared again if there is any new Pirelli rubber

[Buttoneer]

Posts deleted.

Ferrari's 2012 challenger please.

[CF22]

They had Flo-Viz on the car, hopefully we don't have the same old wing next year.

[V8 Fireworks]

bmardini, on Oct 5 2011, 08:32, said:

Well

I do recall Mclaren fighting Ferrari to get out of Q1 in a couple of instances. There was a massive interpretation variance in 2009 that is being conveniently left out. Despite that, Ferrari won a race in 2009.

RBR was almost as fast as Brawn with SDD!!

[KirilVarbanov]

If I hear the word "aggressive" about Ferrari 2012 car I will uninstall my browser. But I will probably hear quite too often until the official presentation.
I didn't notice anything new on the Japan FP1 & 2 - http://f1zoom.co.cc/...a...=504&view=1 - except for the flow viz, of course.

[Ferrari2183]

From the press conference

Quote

Q. is it more revolutionary?

PF: It's different. It looks a little bit different but I think there are exhaust rules changing. There are lots of little bits that will end up with the cars looking slightly different but I wouldn't class it as a revolution as such.

What is up with these guys? The one says this, the other says that... I just hope this car doesn't turn out to be a dud.

[Iridescent]

Ferrari2183, on Oct 7 2011, 17:47, said:

From the press conference



What is up with these guys? The one says this, the other says that... I just hope this car doesn't turn out to be a dud.

Nothing, just fans and media dwelling on snippets that do not mean much. It's kind of boring to be constantly asked those questions but also expected when you're Ferrari.
The car would obviously be different cause firstly we have a change in the regulations, and secondly we have found out some things that do not work as expected and some others that actually work quite well. But it's not like it's going to have its front wing on the back or something..

[SCUDmissile]

Iridescent, on Oct 8 2011, 01:02, said:

Nothing, just fans and media dwelling on snippets that do not mean much. It's kind of boring to be constantly asked those questions but also expected when you're Ferrari.
The car would obviously be different cause firstly we have a change in the regulations, and secondly we have found out some things that do not work as expected and some others that actually work quite well. But it's not like it's going to have its front wing on the back or something..

thanks, was a bit worried reading that. interesting stuff there. hope it is all working well over there.

[Ferrari2183]

I don't mind if the car looks the same as long as it is fast, but we have Domenicali saying "Wow", Tombazi saying that he understands Domenicali's reaction as the car is quite visually different and now we have Fry saying that it is not...

Looks to me like there are too many fingers in the pie with everybody having something different to say.

Rather shut up and get on with it like Red Bull. Ferrari PR is starting to resemble McLaren's.

[kosmos]

All of them saw the car, it's different or not, one way or the other, probably is a case of Fry being honest and Stefano pulling some PR hype.

Alonso said today that with all the talk about the 2012 car, he is not going to say a word about it till february, this is the right aproach in my opinion. Work harder, quiet and don't promise anything or create false expectations.

[SCUDmissile]

funny thing is, Stefano has not come out and said 'WOW' he has been reported to have said it by the italian media.

i kind of agree they should shut up, but if you look at what they actually said, it isnt anything that major to get hopes up.

i just think we as fans can overanalyse a bit.

[Ferrari2183]

kosmos, on Oct 8 2011, 11:18, said:

All of them saw the car, it's different or not, one way or the other, probably is a case of Fry being honest and Stefano pulling some PR hype.

Alonso said today that with all the talk about the 2012 car, he is not going to say a word about it till february, this is the right aproach in my opinion. Work harder, quiet and don't promise anything or create false expectations.

Alonso has the right attitude but we have the Chief Designer and the Team Principal saying it is different and the Chassis director saying it is not... What reason does Domenicali and Tomabazi have to hype the car when the world will see it soon and embarrass themselves if it looks the same?

Doesn't anybody find that strange? To me it sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and I don't agree with Iridescent that it is the media and fans hanging on to snippets when all these statements are coming from the team leaders mouths and then it is not even a case of lost in translation because it is in english.

[Massa]

you overeacting a lot

[SCUDmissile]

Ferrari2183, on Oct 8 2011, 11:29, said:

Alonso has the right attitude but we have the Chief Designer and the Team Principal saying it is different and the Chassis director saying it is not... What reason does Domenicali and Tomabazi have to hype the car when the world will see it soon and embarrass themselves if it looks the same?

Doesn't anybody find that strange? To me it sounds like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and I don't agree with Iridescent that it is the media and fans hanging on to snippets when all these statements are coming from the team leaders mouths and then it is not even a case of lost in translation because it is in english.

i actually read the whole press conference, and Pat pretty much said the same as all the other guys in ther PC. words of caution.

he did say the car was different, but not a complete revolution. nobody has really said it would be a revolution. i kind of got the feeling that when asked about 2012, none of them really wanted to reveal much, likewise with PF. i mean, if you have got Adrian Newey next to you, and Paddy Lowe near you aswell, you wont be wanting to say how exactly the car is going.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 08 October 2011 - 10:41.

[Dino Scuderia]

[PoleMan]

PR hype doesn't bother me in the least. I also don't care if what Tombazis, Domenicali and Fry say doesn't fully square. Keep the bloody competition guessing is what I say! "It's revolutionary!", "It's a modest evolution of the 2011 car." (not actual quotes). Have Red Bull, McLaren and Merc wondering what you're up to. Come January/February, I just want it to be fast. I think it's fair to say that if it isn't, people's jobs will be on the line.

Edited by PoleMan, 08 October 2011 - 19:16.

[SCUDmissile]

some rumours now, forgot where i read them, that ferrari are working on some venturi effect on their car that Rory Byrne had in his 95 Benetton.

[Ferrari2183]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 18 2011, 15:46, said:

some rumours now, forgot where i read them, that ferrari are working on some venturi effect on their car that Rory Byrne had in his 95 Benetton.

I know this is only a rumour so I will speculate further...

The B195 had the sidepod intakes on the outside in a longitudinal fashion with no visible coke bottle shape or noticeable cooling outlet in the rear. Could it be that a Venturi or venturi effect will be created using the sidepod intakes in order to blow the diffuser?

Also, the technical team responsible for the B195 were Rory Byrne, Pat Fry, Nicholas Tombazis and Ross Brawn. Only Ross will be absent on the Ferrari 663.

[SCUDmissile]

Ferrari2183, on Oct 18 2011, 22:09, said:

I know this is only a rumour so I will speculate further...

The B195 had the sidepod intakes on the outside in a longitudinal fashion with no visible coke bottle shape or noticeable cooling outlet in the rear. Could it be that a Venturi or venturi effect will be created using the sidepod intakes in order to blow the diffuser?

Also, the technical team responsible for the B195 were Rory Byrne, Pat Fry, Nicholas Tombazis and Ross Brawn. Only Ross will be absent on the Ferrari 663.

really? i forget, but isnt this the car that allowed Schumi to win the title easier than before? Byrne also was in charge and still is i think of the 2013 regs, which included similar things, so he can be the man to find the loopholes.

[Ferrari2183]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 18 2011, 21:41, said:

really? i forget, but isnt this the car that allowed Schumi to win the title easier than before? Byrne also was in charge and still is i think of the 2013 regs, which included similar things, so he can be the man to find the loopholes.

Yes, Schumi's '95 title was easier than the '94 one. I don't think that Byrne is in charge of the 2013 regulations but he had a hand in drafting them.

If the rumour is true I suspect the new Ferrari will either have McLaren style sidepods or a noticeably fatter rear.

I can't wait to see what the teams have come with.

[LiJu914]

SCUDmissile, on Oct 18 2011, 22:41, said:

really? i forget, but isnt this the car that allowed Schumi to win the title easier than before?

It wasn´t really the car, which allowed him to win the title easier than before. Unlike 1994 he didn´t have to win the title with virtually 4 races less than his competitors (due to DQs and race bans...).

Imho the B194 was (relatively) better than the B195.

[clipper]

LiJu914, on Oct 19 2011, 09:45, said:

It wasn´t really the car, which allowed him to win the title easier than before. Unlike 1994 he didn´t have to win the title with virtually 4 races less than his competitors (due to DQs and race bans...).

Imho the B194 was (relatively) better than the B195.

Had a Renault v10 instead of a Ford V8 as well didn't it?

[Massa]

Yes. But the B194 was very controversial.. While the B195 was clean and way better.
The B194 was inferior than the Williams car, and after Imola Senna was not here, and Hill was not at the same lever than Schumacher... It's only because the FIA that Hill had a chance in the WDC.

I think the B195 was a great all round car, with no weakness. And i didn't know Brawn, Fry, Tombazis and Byrne was all in Benetton squad..

It's sound good for the F 2012..

[Andy865]

clipper, on Oct 19 2011, 01:01, said:

Had a Renault v10 instead of a Ford V8 as well didn't it?

94 Ford, 95 Ren.

[Ferrari2183]

Massa, on Oct 19 2011, 13:28, said:

Yes. But the B194 was very controversial.. While the B195 was clean and way better.
The B194 was inferior than the Williams car, and after Imola Senna was not here, and Hill was not at the same lever than Schumacher... It's only because the FIA that Hill had a chance in the WDC.

I think the B195 was a great all round car, with no weakness. And i didn't know Brawn, Fry, Tombazis and Byrne was all in Benetton squad..

It's sound good for the F 2012..

It was not just Brawn, Fry, Tombazis and Bryne. There was Nigel Stepney, Pat Symonds and Mike Gascoyne. Benetton had a formidable team back then until the bulk defected to Ferrari.

Edit: Barnard left for Ferrari in '93.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 19 October 2011 - 14:34.

[LiJu914]

Massa, on Oct 19 2011, 14:28, said:

Yes. But the B194 was very controversial.. While the B195 was clean and way better.
The B194 was inferior than the Williams car, and after Imola Senna was not here, and Hill was not at the same lever than Schumacher... It's only because the FIA that Hill had a chance in the WDC.

I think the B195 was a great all round car, with no weakness. And i didn't know Brawn, Fry, Tombazis and Byrne was all in Benetton squad..

I still could´nt see a proper argument, why the B195 was better (except for this "controversy"-argument....but a possible use of a launch control doesn´t produce that much of additional performance...).


Funfacts about the B194 vs. the B195:
- MS lapped Hill in the very first race in 1994 (yes Hill wasn´t on the same level, but that didn´t suddenly change from 94 to 95 ;) ).
- 1994: 6 Poles out of 14 Qualifyings (42%) - and if we exclude Senna (to get a better picture in comparison to 95) it would´ve been 9 out of 14 (64%)
1995: 3 Poles out of 17 Qualifyings ( 17%)

- 1994: 8 wins and 92 points out of 12 races (66% - 7,6 points per race)
- 1995: 9 wins and 102 points out of 17 races (52% - 6 points per race)

[SCUDmissile]

didnt Williams win the WCC in 94, but Benetton in 95?
anyways, i hope the 2012 car good, and that it is launched early January, so there are only 2-3 months until launch. time flies, doesnt it?

Korea Wing replicating correct figures from Wind Tunnel, and Tunnel is now calibrated properly - Domenicali.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 19 October 2011 - 17:00.

[boldhakka]

A little frightening that they were still not confident in their wind tunnel calibration. But it's positive that they've finally overcome that issue. The moment that they originally found out their tunnel was mis-calibrated must have been cringe-worthy.

The design team appears timid, but I hope I'm wrong.

[King Six]

boldhakka, on Oct 20 2011, 09:48, said:

A little frightening that they were still not confident in their wind tunnel calibration. But it's positive that they've finally overcome that issue. The moment that they originally found out their tunnel was mis-calibrated must have been cringe-worthy.

The design team appears timid, but I hope I'm wrong.

Didn't they say awhile back that they fixed their wind tunnel issues, so apparently they did not, so there's no reason to believe they have now.

[SCUDmissile]

King Six, on Oct 20 2011, 10:20, said:

Didn't they say awhile back that they fixed their wind tunnel issues, so apparently they did not, so there's no reason to believe they have now.

well yeah, it was working, but they needed a new part to confirm the progress i guess.