154 replies to this topic

[Nivra]

Lets question the elephant in the room- Is Fernando Alonso equally responsible for bad Ferrari cars under him??

Fernando Alonso is one of the great modern day Championship winning competitor, along with the other 5 World Champions on the grid. He is definitely no greater & definitely no less than all other F1 World Champions. His driving skills and intelligence is unquestionable. So it's not an Alonso bash... but just a simple honest question.

I mean, one of the big reasons given by Domi for replacing Kimi with Alonso was the driver feedback.... and that Alonso would be more hand's on with the engineers and help develop fast cars season after season. Also, when Domi & some media/parties & fanboys with vested interest drilled in that point repetitively, they were fully aware that in-season testing was banned, so they definitely knew that driver's still make the most difference as to how the car gets built around. Or else why lie about it like two-faced dicks.

It's obvious that this aspect needs to be looked at from a neutral & Ferrari team fans perspective, and not through Fernando "my god" Alonso fanboys. We all know Alonso is great & Selfish and not a team player in any case, so we are rest assured that the car is 100% built around the feedback/data he delivers to his engineers & design team, both for upgrades & next years car!

So lets look at the recent development phases of Ferrari cars, which is obviously built around the feedback/data/ & desires/problems/suggestions given to engineers from their current "Top" driver", i.e. the driver who is doing the best at Ferrari in the current season, which carries forward to the next season.... until a new "Top" driver emerges.

There is no denying that this is a necessity for the Technical & Design team. For example, Alonso could only join Ferrari when his Renault term expired in december, hence the 2010 car had to be designed considering data/feedback accumulated from Kimi Raikkonen during the 2nd half of 2009 season. If you recall, he was the only driver in any case. Same happened when Kimi joined Ferrari, Schumi's 2006 feedback/data was used as a benchmark for 2007 car.

Also for example, Alonso complained/suggested throughout 2011 that Ferrari are failing to get heat into tyres etc.... hence the "PULL-ROD SUSPENSION" was radically integrated for 2012 to help solve Alonso's (& Massa's) suggested problem. You see, the team is forced into it because they have no choice but to solve the problem being suggested. That's their job. How correct is the driver's feedback or engineers suggested solution, cannot be measured... as both are equally responsible.

Lets look at the Development pattern of Ferrari under each "Top" driver in recent years -Ferrari's Top performing driver's Feedback/Data collected and used by engineers from previous/current season (roll-on):-

Ferrari 2006:- developed using Schumi's feedback/data= got faster during season, excellent!! =Shumi-2nd/Massa quick.

Ferrari 2007:- developed using Schumi feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! = Raikkonen-WDC/Massa quick.
Ferrari 2008:- developed using Raikkonen's feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! = Massa-2nd/Kimi 3rd.

Ferrari 2009 P1:- Massa's feedback for development= sh!t car & remained a sh!t car. Massa injured.
Ferrari 2009 P2:- Kimi's feedback on set-up but no upgrades= semi-quick car instantly!! Kimi brilliant 2nd half.

Ferrari 2010- developed using Kimi's 2009 feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! FA-2nd/Massa podiums.

Ferrari 2011- designed using Alonso's feedback/data= decent car & remained a decent car!! FA-4th/Massa suffers
Ferrari 2012- designed using Alonso's feedback/data= sh!t car & playing catch-up!! FA wins/Massa suffers more.

True or false, the cars designed around or using Schumi & Kimi's feedback & data have generally turned out to be an excellent car and Massa too has been quick in it as well, universally good car for both drivers.
On the other hand, cars developed catering to specific needs of Alonso & Massa have generally flopped big time, and comes with the added baggage of performing well under one driver only, hence universally a bad car catering to selfish needs of just one driver only.

Coincidence... I cannot decide! What I find really funny though is the "FACT" that the last two season that Ferrari have focussed on Alonso, both the Car as well as Massa has gone from good to bad to worse.

PS- The only guy getting faster is Alonso ofcourse... his reputation soars while Ferrari & Massa continue to suffer. Like I said, Alonso is selfish and not a team player... but great nonetheless. Massa thrashing has got nothing to do with this. Ferrari need a Championship developed car, not a team-mate thrashing one. It doesn't help nobody.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alonso is better at development than Raikkonen, says Ferrari boss
http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali has shed a little more light on the decision to drop Kimi Raikkonen and hire Fernando Alonso, saying that Alonso is a better development driver. ....But if the car needs to be developed and the team fired up, Alonso is better.” ....Alonso has always talked up his ability to develop a car, famously during his time at McLaren, claiming to have brought almost a second per lap to the car.

Edited by Nivra, 31 March 2012 - 04:45.

[SirRacer]

Nonesense.

You could develop a car arround a slime if you want, as long as it has huge downforce and a proper driver able to extract the maximum of it it will win races.

Edited by SirRacer, 30 March 2012 - 22:21.

[Nivra]

Nonesense.

You could develop a car arround a slime if you want, as long as it has huge downforce and a proper driver able to extract the maximum of it it will win races.

So simple... So why isn't Alonso giving feedback to Pat Fry regarding what you suggest... increase downforce??

Edited by Nivra, 30 March 2012 - 22:25.

[Menace]

Oh dear me Nivra...

Do you really have to step down to this level of childishness? Just because some fans are absurd/unrealisitc, do you really have to get on the same level?

We all know drivers don't develop the cars, engineers do. Drivers just provide consistent feedback.

On top of that, the new testing rules make it even more difficult for the drivers.

[SirRacer]

So why isn't Alonso giving feedback to Pat Fry regarding what you suggest... increase downforce??

Are you joking?

Ferrari and all the F1 teams are working 24/7 to increase downforce. It's their main focus.

[ASFA2011]

So simple... So why isn't Alonso giving feedback to Pat Fry regarding what you suggest... increase downforce??

Simple , because Alonso is not a designer only a driver helping develop the car , if he is given a crappy car ( that he didn't design ) then he could only work with what he is been given trying to improve it trough his feedback , in the other hand if he is given a winning car since the start of the season then obviously he will give his feedback too to make it better , so I don't see your point

[Atreiu]

Where is the 6 tenths joke?

Off-topic: I always thought Ferrari's very strong run from 2000 onards had a lot to do with Barrichello joining and giving the feedback that complimented Schumacher's input.

[se7en_24]

Where is the 6 tenths joke?

I think Alonso fans gave up on that one ages ago, mainly when the Mclaren got faster when he left and the Ferrari got slower when he joined.

[discover23]

What a load of bull c.... In 08 the car was dev. Using kimi's feedback but in 09 the car was developed using massa's ?
Lol

[Crazy Ninja]

I didnt know Fernando was chief designer too. No wonder he gets paid a fortune.

Edited by Crazy Ninja, 30 March 2012 - 22:44.

[Nivra]

Oh dear me Nivra...

Do you really have to step down to this level of childishness? Just because some fans are absurd/unrealisitc, do you really have to get on the same level?

We all know drivers don't develop the cars, engineers do. Drivers just provide consistent feedback.

On top of that, the new testing rules make it even more difficult for the drivers.

Menace, why is it childishness to ask a question regarding this development sh!t?? When it's convenient, one's fav driver does all the dev work & is the best developer in the business!!

Anyways, my question is not to bash FA, my friends are big fans of his as well as I do want him to win occasionally, during times when finger was ruling a bit too much for my enjoyment of formula 1.

It's a simple question, do drivers deserve some slack for bad cars, especially when the whole team is focussed solely on one drivers whims and fancies. To fail to produce a good car in Alonso-Ferrai situation, the fault surely must lie with both parties. Everyone is blaming domi, fry etc, and calling Ferrari 600 strong team a bunch of incompetence... And I am sure they are not.

[Trust]

This thread is one of the most shittiest I've ever seen.

Alonso is a top driver and probably the best in today's F1. Learn to deal with it people.

PS. And of course, he is not responsible for bad cars, Ferrari managment team is.

[scheivlak]

If a driver's input is that important I'm missing something about his Renault days. Could have been rather relevant, I guess.

[CrucialXtreme]

Where is the 6 tenths joke?

Off-topic: I always thought Ferrari's very strong run from 2000 onards had a lot to do with Barrichello joining and giving the feedback that complimented Schumacher's input.

Of course the drivers helped, most drivers do. But it's funny how you mention those two, but completely omit the fact that all that had to be done was wheel the car out back and test for hours on end. All the telemetry & data you could ever possibly want. This is the main reason why Ferrari has lost form. Ferrari didn't have to rely as heavily on the wind tunnel, CFD & driver simulator, they had something better. This is where teams got an advantage on them, and it's showing in the past few years. When Ferrari gets to the same level of McLaren & Red Bull in the various areas of simulation, they will again deliver top tier cars from the first race of the season.
This thread is honestly a joke. How does any driver truly develop the car before it's ran for the first test? Therefore the driver has no input on the car that is brought forth at the beginning of the year. The F10 developed throughout the season, as did the 150 Italia. Not to the level they would have liked and not to the level of previous years because they couldn't run on Fiorano.
This is a bad thread from someone who obviously doesn't like Ferrari or Fernando.

[Andy865]

This must be a wind up. What a thicko.

Edited by Andy865, 30 March 2012 - 22:53.

[LiJu914]

Suggestion for your next thread: "When will Nivra finally stop to create these silly threads?".


Ps. Well i´ve to apologise...at least you didn´t include a poll this time...

Edited by LiJu914, 30 March 2012 - 22:56.

[Nivra]

I think Alonso fans gave up on that one ages ago, mainly when the Mclaren got faster when he left and the Ferrari got slower when he joined.

Exactly my question.

Since Alonso joined, all of s sudden, the whole 600-strong Maranello factory went incompetent!!! The same guys designed super cars, they only decided to unlearn all their knowledge just so that they can torture Alonso & his fb's.

Why keep blaming the employees, I'm sure they too are giving their 100 %... Just like Alonso.

PS- sand fb's were gloating about Alonso'x dev skills compared to Kimi... And now they are claiming Alonso never was, therefore never is good at it... And simply blaming everyone from domi to pull-rods.

[Coops3]

Of course the drivers helped, most drivers do. But it's funny how you mention those two, but completely omit the fact that all that had to be done was wheel the car out back and test for hours on end. All the telemetry & data you could ever possibly want. This is the main reason why Ferrari has lost form. Ferrari didn't have to rely as heavily on the wind tunnel, CFD & driver simulator, they had something better. This is where teams got an advantage on them, and it's showing in the past few years. When Ferrari gets to the same level of McLaren & Red Bull in the various areas of simulation, they will again deliver top tier cars from the first race of the season.
This thread is honestly a joke. How does any driver truly develop the car before it's ran for the first test? Therefore the driver has no input on the car that is brought forth at the beginning of the year. The F10 developed throughout the season, as did the 150 Italia. Not to the level they would have liked and not to the level of previous years because they couldn't run on Fiorano.
This is a bad thread from someone who obviously doesn't like Ferrari or Fernando.

This.

[as65p]

It's all part of the masterplan. Alonso designs the Ferraris so sh*t to then show everyone he can still win with that sh*tbox.

Everyone can win in a good car, but only Alonso can single-handely make a crap car and then win with it regardless.

Simples.

[m0912329]

What can Alonso + Newey achieve? I reckon they can surpass Schumacher's 6 legitimate WDC titles with that combination.

[Nivra]

Of course the drivers helped, most drivers do. But it's funny how you mention those two, but completely omit the fact that all that had to be done was wheel the car out back and test for hours on end. All the telemetry & data you could ever possibly want. This is the main reason why Ferrari has lost form. Ferrari didn't have to rely as heavily on the wind tunnel, CFD & driver simulator, they had something better. This is where teams got an advantage on them, and it's showing in the past few years. When Ferrari gets to the same level of McLaren & Red Bull in the various areas of simulation, they will again deliver top tier cars from the first race of the season.
This thread is honestly a joke. How does any driver truly develop the car before it's ran for the first test? Therefore the driver has no input on the car that is brought forth at the beginning of the year. The F10 developed throughout the season, as did the 150 Italia. Not to the level they would have liked and not to the level of previous years because they couldn't run on Fiorano.
This is a bad thread from someone who obviously doesn't like Ferrari or Fernando.

C'mon, I am definitely questioning Alonso's feedback... But I'm definitely favoring Ferrari employees and engineers here. Like I said above, these guys have vast knowledge to conjur up a great car at Maranello... But maybe they can't understand what Alonso is asking for in his car.

Maybe all the requisite Alonso gave as feedback was that his car should be faster than felipe... Sorry, couldn't resist. But yep, Alonso and fry are confused to the max at the moment.

Btw, great win by Alonso though... Although a more experienced Perez would have left him for dust. That's how slow Alonso+Fry are dealing with currently

[alg7_munif]

Yes, he refused to share his six tenth with the team because he doesn't want Massa to benefit from it just like Hamilton did.

[2ms]

It does seem a bit like Alonso isn't quite the leader and car development driver he has been cracked up to be at least by Ferrari initially. When was the last time he was tops? 6 years ago two seasons and the rest of his career the cars have all been inferior?

[se7en_24]

It does seem a bit like Alonso isn't quite the leader and car development driver he has been cracked up to be at least by Ferrari initially. When was the last time he was tops? 6 years ago two seasons and the rest of his career the cars have all been inferior?

Don't forget Singapore 2008 though - his development helped to win the race in an inferior car.

[hammibal]

Lets question the elephant in the room- Is Fernando Alonso equally responsible for bad Ferrari cars under him??

Fernando Alonso is one of the great modern day Championship winning competitor, along with the other 5 World Champions on the grid. He is definitely no greater & definitely no less than all other F1 World Champions. His driving skills and intelligence is unquestionable. So it's not an Alonso bash... but just a simple honest question.

I mean, one of the big reasons given by Domi for replacing Kimi with Alonso was the driver feedback.... and that Alonso would be more hand's on with the engineers and help develop fast cars season after season. Also, when Domi & some media/parties & fanboys with vested interest drilled in that point repetitively, they were fully aware that in-season testing was banned, so they definitely knew that driver's still make the most difference as to how the car gets built around. Or else why lie about it like two-faced dicks.

It's obvious that this aspect needs to be looked at from a neutral & Ferrari team fans perspective, and not through Fernando "my god" Alonso fanboys. We all know Alonso is great & Selfish and not a team player in any case, so we are rest assured that the car is 100% built around the feedback/data he delivers to his engineers & design team, both for upgrades & next years car!

So lets look at the recent development phases of Ferrari cars, which is obviously built around the feedback/data/ & desires/problems/suggestions given to engineers from their current "Top" driver", i.e. the driver who is doing the best at Ferrari in the current season, which carries forward to the next season.... until a new "Top" driver emerges.

There is no denying that this is a necessity for the Technical & Design team. For example, Alonso could only join Ferrari when his Renault term expired in december, hence the 2010 car had to be designed considering data/feedback accumulated from Kimi Raikkonen during the 2nd half of 2009 season. If you recall, he was the only driver in any case. Same happened when Kimi joined Ferrari, Schumi's 2006 feedback/data was used as a benchmark for 2007 car.

Also for example, Alonso complained/suggested throughout 2011 that Ferrari are failing to get heat into tyres etc.... hence the "PULL-ROD SUSPENSION" was radically integrated for 2012 to help solve Alonso's (& Massa's) suggested problem. You see, the team is forced into it because they have no choice but to solve the problem being suggested. That's their job. How correct is the driver's feedback or engineers suggested solution, cannot be measured... as both are equally responsible.

Lets look at the Development pattern of Ferrari under each "Top" driver in recent years -Ferrari's Top performing driver's Feedback/Data collected and used by engineers from previous/current season (roll-on):-

Ferrari 2006:- developed using Schumi's feedback/data= got faster during season, excellent!! =Shumi-2nd/Massa quick.

Ferrari 2007:- developed using Schumi feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! = Raikkonen-WDC/Massa quick.
Ferrari 2008:- developed using Raikkonen's feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! = Massa-2nd/Kimi 3rd.

Ferrari 2009 P1:- Massa's feedback for development= sh!t car & remained a sh!t car. Massa injured.
Ferrari 2009 P2:- Kimi's feedback on set-up but no upgrades= semi-quick car instantly!! Kimi brilliant 2nd half.

Ferrari 2010- developed using Kimi's 2009 feedback/data= fast car off the blocks, excellent!! FA-2nd/Massa podiums.

Ferrari 2011- designed using Alonso's feedback/data= decent car & remained a decent car!! FA-4th/Massa suffers
Ferrari 2012- designed using Alonso's feedback/data= sh!t car & playing catch-up!! FA wins/Massa suffers more.

True or false, the cars designed around or using Schumi & Kimi's feedback & data have generally turned out to be an excellent car and Massa too has been quick in it as well, universally good car for both drivers.
On the other hand, cars developed catering to specific needs of Alonso & Massa have generally flopped big time, and comes with the added baggage of performing well under one driver only, hence universally a bad car catering to selfish needs of just one driver only.

Coincidence... I cannot decide! What I find really funny though is the "FACT" that the last two season that Ferrari have focussed on Alonso, both the Car as well as Massa has gone from good to bad to worse.

PS- The only guy getting faster is Alonso ofcourse... his reputation soars while Ferrari & Massa continue to suffer. Like I said, Alonso is selfish and not a team player... but great nonetheless. Massa thrashing has got nothing to do with this. Ferrari need a Championship developed car, not a team-mate thrashing one. It doesn't help nobody.

DRIVERS DO NOT DESIGN CARS

[Dunder]

No. If the F2012 was currently the fastest/most stable car in F1 it would have little to do with Alonso's (or Massa's) feedback.

By the same token the fact that it is a car with some 'issues' is not the responsibility of the drivers.

Way too much emphasis is put on drivers' 'development abilities'. Very few drivers have any detailed engineering knowledge and as such they are not able to contribute to what are engineering challenges.

[Atreiu]

Of course the drivers helped, most drivers do. But it's funny how you mention those two, but completely omit the fact that all that had to be done was wheel the car out back and test for hours on end. All the telemetry & data you could ever possibly want. This is the main reason why Ferrari has lost form. Ferrari didn't have to rely as heavily on the wind tunnel, CFD & driver simulator, they had something better. This is where teams got an advantage on them, and it's showing in the past few years. When Ferrari gets to the same level of McLaren & Red Bull in the various areas of simulation, they will again deliver top tier cars from the first race of the season.
This thread is honestly a joke. How does any driver truly develop the car before it's ran for the first test? Therefore the driver has no input on the car that is brought forth at the beginning of the year. The F10 developed throughout the season, as did the 150 Italia. Not to the level they would have liked and not to the level of previous years because they couldn't run on Fiorano.
This is a bad thread from someone who obviously doesn't like Ferrari or Fernando.

That was a simple off-topic afterthought, not a thorough analysis, which is why I kept it to a single sentence.

Anyhow, when Toyota joined, testing was still set on an all you afford basis. And other teams had deep pockets too. It didn't buy them success. Which is why I find it wide off the mark to set Ferrari's success as a matter of simply testing a lot. I still believe it had a lot to do with Barrichello's and Schumacher's combined contributions and development work.

[harris]

Yeah like spoons are responsible for Rosie O Doughnut being less than flop sweat sexy!

Fred is all that squad has going for them at the moment or else they would be ... well ... maybe 14th and 15th on the grid at best. I firmly believe that if not for Alonso's ability to hoist that donkey that is where they would be.

Anyone think Vettel or Schumi could do better in that ride?

[CF22]

Apart from Schumacher Alonso has to be the best driver supporting the development of the car. Drivers are no engineers, though they do give feedback as to what they prefer, how the car handles etc.

Just recently this came up on the official F1 website:

"Following Fernando Alonso's advice, Ferrari have introduced to the F2012 a concept used by their driver's former team, Renault, as long ago as 2001. Designed to make the rear end of the car stiffer, an arm (red arrow) has been added connecting the gearbox and chassis. Note also the oil radiator mounted on top of the gearbox and cooled by the second small inlet in the engine cover (blue arrow)."



http://www.formula1....12/865/948.html

[fabr68]

Exactly my question.

Since Alonso joined, all of s sudden, the whole 600-strong Maranello factory went incompetent!!! The same guys designed super cars, they only decided to unlearn all their knowledge just so that they can torture Alonso & his fb's.

Why keep blaming the employees, I'm sure they too are giving their 100 %... Just like Alonso.

PS- sand fb's were gloating about Alonso'x dev skills compared to Kimi... And now they are claiming Alonso never was, therefore never is good at it... And simply blaming everyone from domi to pull-rods.

Another thread, another sore Kimi fan.

Yes, Kimi is a great car developer, I remember Ferrari 2009, Mclaren 2006 and who can forget the Mclaren 2005 it was so fast and unreliable. Just like the current Lotus

Now, where is the "Kimi breaks cars" thread. It would be the perfect complement to this idiotic thread.

Edited by fabr68, 31 March 2012 - 00:54.

[One]

In recent trend drivers are never responsible for a car that does not deliver at the first race. More like second and further. Alonso delivered the win on his second outing while marking only seventh fastest laP time of the race day. This is a remarkable achievement.

On the contrary Sebastian Vettel could do little to improve result on his car's technical shortcomings. I say therefore Alondo showed his value while Vettel revealed his dependencies. Vettel is a fine kid but far from being as good as Alonso. From Alonso's Renult days aalinso drove his car till he literally dried out in his cockpit to extract max from his car. Vettel just hit out on back maker and that it simply silly youth behavior.

So please experts do not bring up this manipulative threads. I am fed up with Helmout Marco's commercial BS to up Vettel to the league of Senna A bug I just can not see it.

Alonso is the most complete driver on the current grid .

[Creepy]

I think Alonso fans gave up on that one ages ago, mainly when the Mclaren got faster when he left and the Ferrari got slower when he joined.

McLaren got faster when Alonso joined (from 2006 to 2007 there was a great improvement), and I'm not so sure McLaren got faster really in 2008 in regard to the competition taking into account Massa almost won the championship.
And you must be joking if you consider Ferrari got slower from 2009 to 2010.

Not that I care about the 6 tens and the development skills but seriously, how cute and conveniently wrong some of you guys take past events.

Don't forget Singapore 2008 though - his development helped to win the race in an inferior car.

Nice cheap shot. You could as well have used Japan 2008 as example.


Anyway, as others pointed out it's pretty clear for what this thread was created. Not that I'm complaining but I'm pretty sure we'll see this kind of threads quite oftenly if Alonso keeps on finishing ahead of certain driver.

Edited by Creepy, 31 March 2012 - 02:22.

[2ms]

I think Alonso fans gave up on that one ages ago, mainly when the Mclaren got faster when he left and the Ferrari got slower when he joined.

Don't forget Singapore 2008 though - his development helped to win the race in an inferior car.

[KirilVarbanov]

One of the most funniest threads I've recently seen. Rated one star (no zero option).

[Watkins74]

Well I see all the usual suspects are here. The ones who love to diss Ferrari and Alonso and then cry when the response comes and act like they live on the high road.

Please don't ever stop.

[Creepy]

Well I see all the usual suspects are here. The ones who love to diss Ferrari and Alonso and then cry when the response comes and act like they live on the high road.

Please don't ever stop.

Very agreed with that. Some attitude!

[cheapracer]

Alonso delivered the win on his second outing while marking only seventh fastest lap time of the race day.

Lottery races prove nothing, seventh fastest backs that up (fine drive don't get me wrong, but irrelevant to this thread).

Anyhow, when Toyota joined, testing was still set on an all you afford basis. And other teams had deep pockets too. It didn't buy them success. Which is why I find it wide off the mark to set Ferrari's success as a matter of simply testing a lot. I still believe it had a lot to do with Barrichello's and Schumacher's combined contributions and development work.

It's like golf practice, if you don't concentrate on improving then it's just excercise.

[cheapracer]

Well I see all the usual suspects are here. The ones who love to diss Ferrari and Alonso and then cry when the response comes and act like they live on the high road.

Please don't ever stop.

So if I mention a driver has a problem in his resume it's because I'm "not a fan" and couldn't possibly be because it's true?

[kosmos]

True or false, the cars designed around or using Schumi feedback & data have generally turned out to be an excellent car

Like the Mercedes car?

I feel sad for you, some much pain because Alonso won 1 race.

[bourbon]

In recent trend drivers are never responsible for a car that does not deliver at the first race. More like second and further. Alonso delivered the win on his second outing while marking only seventh fastest laP time of the race day. This is a remarkable achievement.

On the contrary Sebastian Vettel could do little to improve result on his car's technical shortcomings. I say therefore Alondo showed his value while Vettel revealed his dependencies. Vettel is a fine kid but far from being as good as Alonso. From Alonso's Renult days aalinso drove his car till he literally dried out in his cockpit to extract max from his car. Vettel just hit out on back maker and that it simply silly youth behavior.

So please experts do not bring up this manipulative threads. I am fed up with Helmout Marco's commercial BS to up Vettel to the league of Senna A bug I just can not see it.

Alonso is the most complete driver on the current grid .

Alonso = complete.
Raikkonen = still a work of art in progress.

That's how I see it. And why I am, always have been and always will be a fan of Raikkonen.

Oh and to weigh in - I wouldn't know how to gauge the impact of driver feedback unless I was working in the garage/factory or the driver... so I dunno.

Edited by bourbon, 31 March 2012 - 03:28.

[Birelman]

Well, if I remember correctly, Alonso's super developer skills were one of the key assets that his fans (and Tifosos, as well ar Raikkonen haters) claimed was the main reason why Ferrari needed Alonso. Yet, we have yet to see a Championship winning Alonso led design.

Funny how not many are smacking him for Ferrari's lack of pace and developmental prowess. He should be partially responsible at the very least.

[ASFA2011]

Well, if I remember correctly, Alonso's super developer skills were one of the key assets that his fans (and Tifosos, as well ar Raikkonen haters) claimed was the main reason why Ferrari needed Alonso. Yet, we have yet to see a Championship winning Alonso led design.

Funny how not many are smacking him for Ferrari's lack of pace and developmental prowess. He should be partially responsible at the very least.

You are contradicting yourself in your own post , so is Alonso a developer or a designer ? Make up your mind please

[Supersleeper]

Alonso is a 2x WDC - by the criteria you set in this thread - you're saying he had nothing to do with that.

Not really though this one through eh?

[Nivra]

DRIVERS DO NOT DESIGN/DEVELOP CARS

Alonso is better at development than Raikkonen, says Ferrari boss
http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali has shed a little more light on the decision to drop Kimi Raikkonen and hire Fernando Alonso, saying that Alonso is a better development driver, more in the mould of Michael Schumacher and that is what the team needs.

Referring to Raikkonen he said, “In a car that is capable of winning, he was and is perfect. But if the car needs to be developed and the team fired up, Alonso is better.”

Alonso has always talked up his ability to develop a car, famously during his time at McLaren, claiming to have brought almost a second per lap to the car.

Domenicali described Raikkonen as “very fast, but also very closed”. This is a criticism of Raikkonen that one heard from the team throughout his time there. He was hired by Jean Todt in 2006 and when explaining his reasons for taking Raikkonen, Todt said that Raikkonen did not speak too much, which he saw as a strength. He focussed on driving the car

When it was announced in September 2006 that Raikkonen would replace Schumacher at Ferrari, his friend Tony Wilander made some telling comments, “How will the Ferrari team be with Kimi? Very different from Schumacher’s. Let’s not forget that Michael arrived at Ferrari together with people who had already worked with him at Benetton. Kimi, by contrast, doesn’t know anyone.

“On top of that, Kimi’s less of a perfectionist, and he will not visit the factory as often. However, I’m sure it will be enough to win the championship.”

Edited by Nivra, 31 March 2012 - 04:46.

[Nivra]

Alonso is better at development than Raikkonen, says Ferrari boss
http://www.jamesalle...s-ferrari-boss/

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali has shed a little more light on the decision to drop Kimi Raikkonen,
and hire Fernando Alonso, saying that Alonso is a better development driver, more in the mould of Michael Schumacher and that is what the team needs.

Referring to Raikkonen he said, “In a car that is capable of winning, he was and is perfect.
But if the car needs to be developed and the team fired up, Alonso is better.”

Alonso has always talked up his ability to develop a car, famously during his time at McLaren, claiming to have brought almost a second per lap to the car.

“On top of that, Kimi’s less of a perfectionist, and he will not visit the factory as often. However, I’m sure it will be enough to win the championship.”

Yeah baby, the car has "developed" into a big, bad "CLIFFORD" thanks to Alonso's mega "development" skills..

Edited by Nivra, 31 March 2012 - 04:41.

[Nivra]

McLaren got faster when Alonso joined (from 2006 to 2007 there was a great improvement), and I'm not so sure McLaren got faster really in 2008 in regard to the competition taking into account Massa almost won the championship.
And you must be joking if you consider Ferrari got slower from 2009 to 2010.

Not that I care about the 6 tens and the development skills but seriously, how cute and conveniently wrong some of you guys take past events.



Nice cheap shot. You could as well have used Japan 2008 as example.


Anyway, as others pointed out it's pretty clear for what this thread was created. Not that I'm complaining but I'm pretty sure we'll see this kind of threads quite oftenly if Alonso keeps on finishing ahead of certain driver.

Again, the initial Mclaren 2007 was Designed/Developed using Kimi Raikkonen's feedback/data from 2006 as a yardstick for the car.

They had no other "top" driver.... Montoya got fired & PDLR rotated with Wurz... so no constant yardstick but that of Raikkonen for the engineers & dev team to analyze and integrate!!

Edited by Nivra, 31 March 2012 - 05:08.

[SpaMaster]

Actually a good case could have been made on the thread topic. After all, it is no secret, lot of people can come up with this suggestion. Alas, it is all ruined by prejudiced and silly way of writing. Too bad!

[Callahan]

no

[Nivra]

Actually a good case could have been made on the thread topic. After all, it is no secret, lot of people can come up with this suggestion. Alas, it is all ruined by prejudiced and silly way of writing. Too bad!

What prejudice way of writing you are talking about???

It is quite clear that Alonso was/is bragged about as a perfect "Development" driver by Domi/Ferrari.
It is also very clear that the car has simply gone from good (2010), to bad (2011) to slow and ugly (2012).

If you are taking offence that Alonso is being highlighted by me, then I have no damn choice but to use him as a benchmark.... simply based on the fact that Fernando Alonso is the only driver amongst the top teams where all the focus, money, and attention is devoted to what & how he wants the car to behave by a 600-strong staff at Maranello.

And the car still fails.

Edited by Nivra, 31 March 2012 - 05:09.

[IceSkyrim]

Fernando might be responsible for demanding a Ferrari Revolution, instead of Evolution.
However Ferrari might profit from it in the comming years.

Also, I'm not sure how/who asked for Pat Fry at Ferrari... was it Alonso, that appreciated his work when at McLaren ?