63 replies to this topic

[WitnessX]

JB needs car parity or advantage to beat Nando though, so that's a BIG ask. And if the car is equal to or faster than the Ferrari, Lewis probably isn't going to need JB, who's only up against Massa as far as the battle with FA is concerned.

WDC is all on a car for Lewis, surely, and I don't think they can spare a nanosecond from its pace.

JB is WCC now. But I don't think McLaren would sacrifice wDc for wCc. Both: fine. Chosing? wDc.

Fairly pointless argument, as its in McLarens interests to create the best car they can and let nature/luck/fate sort out who comes out with more points at the end.

However..

Its not 2007,2008 anymore. Both drivers are allready WDCs. There is no "novelty" factor attached to either of the drivers. McLaren have a car which they pay the drivers to drive, not the other way around. They are not there for the drivers egos.

I have heard Ron Dennis in the past at a track saying that for the teams go for the wcc, the wdc is just "icing on the cake". The exception was Lewis who was, at that time, a novelty item.

So which headline would -they- prefer?:

"McLaren world champions 2012"
Where they get more money, pit privaleges for next year, and a trophy for the whole team.

or
"<Driver> world champion 2012"
The driver only gets a trophy, they can stick a "1" on one of the cars, providing of course, the particular driver is there next year.

Edited by WitnessX, 13 June 2012 - 10:16.

[Calorus]

They'd prefer WDC without a doubt. It's the proper WCC in all but name. it's where the prestige is for the team.

No, the WCC is where the prize money is. The WDC if won without the WCC (e.g. 1994 Schumacher), frequently yields comments regarding how the driver carried the car, which can be especially insulting and frustrating for the team. But the biggest thing is the prize money -- around 100€ million for a win, and 10€ less for second down to around half for finishing 10th. The WDC is very definitely icing on the cake, especially for road car manufacturers who typically exhibit their WCC roundels on their road cars (have a look at the back of a Renault Sport Clio next time you see one)

Edited by Calorus, 13 June 2012 - 19:48.

[MP422]

No, the WCC is where the prize money is. The WDC if won without the WCC (e.g. 1994 Schumacher), frequently yields comments regarding how the driver carried the car, which can be especially insulting and frustrating for the team. But the biggest thing is the prize money -- around 100€ million for a win, and 10€ less for second down to around half for finishing 10th. The WDC is very definitely icing on the cake, especially for road car manufacturers who typically exhibit their WCC roundels on their road cars (have a look at the back of a Renault Sport Clio next time you see one)

I think they want both but the WDC brings the #1 and is the one everyone remembers. This title also brings money to the team.

[Calorus]

I think they want both but the WDC brings the #1 and is the one everyone remembers. This title also brings money to the team.

There's little or no prize money attached to the WDC. There is undoubtedly something great about having a 1 on one of the cars but a) that relies on keeping the driver, and b) it's unlikely even to raise the 10€ million lost from going from 1st to 2nd in the constructors. In addition the "straight in" or "straight out" garages can often be worth a couple of tenths on an in or out lap, depending on the circuit. In short they'd undoubtedly prefer both, or the WDC to nothing, but the WCC is what pays the bills and what energises the team.

At the end of the day F1 is competitive engineering with some great drivers thrown in, not the other way around.

[rhukkas]

There's little or no prize money attached to the WDC. There is undoubtedly something great about having a 1 on one of the cars but a) that relies on keeping the driver, and b) it's unlikely even to raise the 10€ million lost from going from 1st to 2nd in the constructors. In addition the "straight in" or "straight out" garages can often be worth a couple of tenths on an in or out lap, depending on the circuit. In short they'd undoubtedly prefer both, or the WDC to nothing, but the WCC is what pays the bills and what energises the team.

At the end of the day F1 is competitive engineering with some great drivers thrown in, not the other way around.

While the financial aspect is true, what you said about 'energising the team' is complete and utter nonsense. It really is.

I mean why on earth would a mechanic headbutt glass after losing JUST the WDC?

I didn't see Ferrari celebrating either when they clinched he 2008 WCC that year... yet the team that DIDN'T win the WCC celebrated like this http://www.f1fanatic...ation2008-2.jpg

The WDC IS the WCC in all but name. If you think they want the WCC over the WDC you're deluded. A team would happily PAY the deficit of not being 1st in the WCC standings to be WDC in any given year.

Edited by rhukkas, 13 June 2012 - 20:28.

[PARAZAR]

While the financial aspect is true, what you said about 'energising the team' is complete and utter nonsense. It really is.

I mean why on earth would a mechanic headbutt glass after losing JUST the WDC?

I didn't see Ferrari celebrating either when they clinched he 2008 WCC that year... yet the team that DIDN'T win the WCC celebrated like this http://www.f1fanatic...ation2008-2.jpg

The WDC IS the WCC in all but name. If you think they want the WCC over the WDC you're deluded. A team would happily PAY the deficit of not being 1st in the WCC standings to be WDC in any given year.

I don't think he's deluded at all. They'd like to get both obviously but why would a team want a WDC over a WCC? The big bucks are in the WCC.

[Calorus]

While the financial aspect is true, what you said about 'energising the team' is complete and utter nonsense. It really is.

I mean why on earth would a mechanic headbutt glass after losing JUST the WDC?

I didn't see Ferrari celebrating either when they clinched he 2008 WCC that year... yet the team that DIDN'T win the WCC celebrated like this http://www.f1fanatic...ation2008-2.jpg

The WDC IS the WCC in all but name. If you think they want the WCC over the WDC you're deluded. A team would happily PAY the deficit of not being 1st in the WCC standings to be WDC in any given year.

Erm... a video of an Italian celebrating as they thought they had won, only to find out after all the excitement only to find out suddenly that in fact they hadn't -- and they'd, on merit won neither the WDC nor WCC. And a photograph of some British people at least half a week after winning the WDC title but being excluded from the WCC... I... I don't know what to say.

[Atreiu]

Ferrari never seemed too proud of their 1999 WCC.

[Calorus]

Ferrari never seemed too proud of their 1999 WCC.

Proud of it? What can they do other than put it in the Trophy room, put the cheque in the bank and feel smug about doing their job better than every other team?

[bauss]

Proud of it? What can they do other than put it in the Trophy room, put the cheque in the bank and feel smug about doing their job better than every other team?

lol if they had done the better job then they would have the WDC

Truth is the extra money for the WCC is only good so you can invest more into getting the WDC. There is little doubt the WDC is the more prestigious and main thing teams and their sponsors want to win each year.

It is what fans remember and cherish the most.

[Calorus]

lol if they had done the better job then they would have the WDC

Truth is the extra money for the WCC is only good so you can invest more into getting the WDC. There is little doubt the WDC is the more prestigious and main thing teams and their sponsors want to win each year.

It is what fans remember and cherish the most.

It's definitely what the fans cherish the most, there we agree, but I'd take Dennis, and Williams and countless other principals at their word: they want to go racing and they want to turn a profit and keep racing and they want all of the title of any variety they can get and the WDC is a fantastic thing to win... But if it was the WDC or the WCC they'd always take the WCC. Because that's what reflects the job that the team have done, and that's what pays the bills to keep them doing what they love doing.

[jjcale]

Its a simple point on the financial side... is the difference in increase in sponsorship generated by the WDC greater than the difference in WCC prize money (usually between 1st and 2nd) + whatever increase in sponsorship might be generated by WCC.

I think you will find the WDC is actually more valuable (and hence more "cherished") ... there is not much room for sentiment in modern F1

[Calorus]

Its a simple point on the financial side... is the difference in increase in sponsorship generated by the WDC greater than the difference in WCC prize money (usually between 1st and 2nd) + whatever increase in sponsorship might be generated by WCC.

I think you will find the WDC is actually more valuable (and hence more "cherished") ... there is not much room for sentiment in modern F1

Again, you're missing the point that a) most sponsorship deals are signed for 3-5 years, and b) the 10€ Euros comes with no overheads. The sponsorship overheads are extremely high, to the point where for a minor sponsor, upto 40% of the headline payment will be spent entertaining them as guests.

[jjcale]

Again, you're missing the point that a) most sponsorship deals are signed for 3-5 years, and b) the 10€ Euros comes with no overheads. The sponsorship overheads are extremely high, to the point where for a minor sponsor, upto 40% of the headline payment will be spent entertaining them as guests.

So why do teams prefer the WDC? .... cause that's where all the focus seems to be.

My little equation still seems to work... either the teams make more out of sponsorship or they dont (stripping out the overheads, and extending the time over more than one season if necessary).

Edited by jjcale, 13 June 2012 - 21:07.

[PretentiousBread]

Again, you're missing the point that a) most sponsorship deals are signed for 3-5 years, and b) the 10€ Euros comes with no overheads. The sponsorship overheads are extremely high, to the point where for a minor sponsor, upto 40% of the headline payment will be spent entertaining them as guests.

I know what you mean, the WDC is wee buns compared to the WCC, just look at how little this guy cared when his driver lost the championship, and how brimming with joy he was at the winning of the WCC:

[maverick69]

Feck me.

WDC is king..... Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to have a good look at how publicly and the subsiquent revinue works......

[Calorus]

So why do teams prefer the WDC? .... cause that's where all the focus seems to be.

My little equation still seems to work... either the teams make more out of sponsorship or they dont (stripping out the overheads, and extending the time over more than one season if necessary).

They don't. Ron Dennis and Frank Williams to name two have specifically said that the WCC is what gets respect in the pitlane and what pays the bills.

[Calorus]

Feck me.

WDC is king..... Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to have a good look at how publicly and the subsiquent revinue works......

It's is undoubtedly king for the fans, but not for the teams. It great, fantastic even, but not as great as the WCC or better yet, both.

[jrg19]

WDC.

[fieraku]

So Massa is a Champion? WDC all the way,no one remembers,cares or brags about say Ferrari's 08 WCC. Actually most Ferrari fans argue the 23 was a better car.(we know why)

[Calorus]

So Massa is a Champion? WDC all the way,no one remembers,cares or brags about say Ferrari's 08 WCC. Actually most Ferrari fans argue the 23 was a better car.(we know why)

Massa is not a Champion, but Tombazis is -- and Ferrari are.

Edited by Calorus, 13 June 2012 - 21:26.

[Sakae]

Fairly pointless argument, as its in McLarens interests to create the best car they can and let nature/luck/fate sort out who comes out with more points at the end.

However..

Its not 2007,2008 anymore. Both drivers are allready WDCs. There is no "novelty" factor attached to either of the drivers. McLaren have a car which they pay the drivers to drive, not the other way around. They are not there for the drivers egos.

I have heard Ron Dennis in the past at a track saying that for the teams go for the wcc, the wdc is just "icing on the cake". The exception was Lewis who was, at that time, a novelty item.

So which headline would -they- prefer?:

"McLaren world champions 2012"
Where they get more money, pit privaleges for next year, and a trophy for the whole team.

or
"<Driver> world champion 2012"
The driver only gets a trophy, they can stick a "1" on one of the cars, providing of course, the particular driver is there next year.

Discussions with F1 topic I have been involved in, almost without exceptions evolved around WDC. Never WCC.

[Calorus]

Discussions with F1 topic I have been involved in, almost without exceptions evolved around WDC. Never WCC.

Fans tend only to care about the WDC, they have their favourite drivers, they get involved with the personalities and identify with their driving styles and back stories... I suspect many wouldn't even care if there weren't a WCC, however the fans aren't the teams.

[SirRacer]

Massa is not a Champion, but Tombazis is -- and Ferrari are.

But very few remember them for being '08 WCC

People remember McLaren and Ferrari for the fight of Massa vs Hamilton, not because the WCC points they had at the end of the season.

[PARAZAR]

But very few remember them for being '08 WCC

People remember McLaren and Ferrari for the fight of Massa vs Hamilton, not because the WCC points they had at the end of the season.

Yes but we're not discussing about what fans remember, the question is does a team prefer the WCC or the WDC if they can't have both?

[ForeverF1]

Prior to '58 (I think it was when the Constructors Championship started, although I will stand corrected on the date) it was the WDC that was important to the teams. However, now, for the teams, the WCC is king.
If the WDC was so important and coveted by the teams, Sir Frank would not have let Mansell and Hill go and more recent, Brawn with Button taking the number 1 to McLaren.

[fieraku]

Massa is not a Champion, but Tombazis is -- and Ferrari are.

Exactly,and 80% of F1 fans have no clue who Tombazis is.

[rhukkas]

I think there isn't a team on the grid that wouldn't sacrifice the prize money on the grid for winning the WCC for having a WDC.

The drivers championship isn't really a 'drivers' championship because it isn't really about the drivers. the WDC is the F1 World Championship. The reason they put emphasis on the term driver is because that's much more marketable. It's a constructors/team championship in all but name. The WCC is basically a constructors championship to take into account both cars within a team and to distribute prize money.

If the WCC was really the championship that put 'energy' within a team then why don't we see teams celebrating like mad when they are the highest scoring team on a weekend. A 2nd and a 3rd bags more for a team than, for example, a team having a 1st and DNF. Because quite obviously it's the WDC that 'matters'. Don't let the term 'drivers' fool you. This is where people are getting tripped up.

Edited by rhukkas, 13 June 2012 - 22:17.

[maverick69]

Prior to '58 (I think it was when the Constructors Championship started, although I will stand corrected on the date) it was the WDC that was important to the teams. However, now, for the teams, the WCC is king.
If the WDC was so important and coveted by the teams, Sir Frank would not have let Mansell and Hill go and more recent, Brawn with Button taking the number 1 to McLaren.

Because they'd won the WDC, got the spoils, and the drivers wanted too much money.

Besides. Williams won the WDC and the WCC in the seasons after the respective dismissals you mention.

[Atreiu]

I still don't think Ferrari got what they wanted in 1999 and 2008, and all that extra money definitely didn't help their 2009 cause. Same for the cash helping Brawn stay on top in 2010.

[ForzaGTR]

People remember WDC more than WCC

[ForeverF1]

Because they'd won the WDC, got the spoils, and the drivers wanted too much money.

Besides. Williams won the WDC and the WCC in the seasons after the respective dismissals you mention.

So therefor, it did not matter one jot about the WDC to the team. Whilst it is an accolade for the teams, the WDC is mainly for the drivers and fans, whereas it is the WCC which brings prestige and money to the teams.

[maverick69]

So therefor, it did not matter one jot about the WDC to the team. Whilst it is an accolade for the teams, the WDC is mainly for the drivers and fans, whereas it is the WCC which brings prestige and money to the teams.

Clearly prestige and money from the FIA, FOM, or whoever else is dishing out the "official" cash.

But the simple fact is that outside of that circle, everything else is geared towards and focused on the WDC..... and I bet that teams will earn more out of that than the WCC prize by quite a margin.

[ForeverF1]

Clearly prestige and money from the FIA, FOM, or whoever else is dishing out the "official" cash.

But the simple fact is that outside of that circle, everything else is geared towards and focused on the WDC.

I am not disclaiming that, but the main focus for the teams is the WCC.

[maverick69]

I am not disclaiming that, but the main focus for the teams is the WCC.

I think that's a facade..... But maybe I'm a cynical old sod

[ForeverF1]

I think that's a facade..... But maybe I'm a cynical old sod

Yep, it is so much a facade that all the haggling over the Concorde Agreement amounts to nothing.

[Mandzipop]

So the choice is $100 million or a number 1 on the car that could end up another car if the driver changes teams (Merc didn't have the number 1 on their car in 2010 even though they won both). Which one did they benefit from? It was the WCC. BrawnGP are the only team in history that can claim a 100% record of WCC.

[rhukkas]

I am not disclaiming that, but the main focus for the teams is the WCC.

The WDC is a constructor's championship and brings the same, if not more prestige to the winning team. I don't remember seeing scenes like this at Maranello that year celebrating the WCC. Now are you seriously suggesting those scenes would have been echoed had they won the WCC that year and not the WDC? Prestige is without a doubt more attached to the WDC than the WCC. In fact winning the WCC and not the WDC highlights the teams failure to hire the right drivers.

It's been fashionable for those who think they 'know' about F1 to say to their mates in the pub "actually the WCC is more important to the teams" to act smart, but at the sharp end of the grid it's about the WDC all day long because the WDC is a constructor championship. Hence why team boss and drivers call 'the championship'

Edited by rhukkas, 13 June 2012 - 22:54.

[rhukkas]

So the choice is $100 million or a number 1 on the car that could end up another car if the driver changes teams (Merc didn't have the number 1 on their car in 2010 even though they won both). Which one did they benefit from? It was the WCC. BrawnGP are the only team in history that can claim a 100% record of WCC.

If I said to Ross Brawn "you get two choices - 2008 WDC crown or 2008 WCC!" you think he'll choose the latter? seriously?

[ForeverF1]

If I said to Ross Brawn "you get two choices - 2008 WDC crown or 2008 WCC!" you think he'll choose the latter? seriously?

He would look at you askance.

[SirRacer]

Yes but we're not discussing about what fans remember, the question is does a team prefer the WCC or the WDC if they can't have both?

The team prefers to be remembered by the people as a winners, because after all, it is what brings value to the company which is what brings money, so the answer is still the same.

[Gareth]

Playing devil's advocate:

Winning the WCC but not the WDC tells you that you built the second best car but the competition hired a crappy second driver. No pride there for the engineers, just for the guys that pick the drivers.

[jjcale]

So the choice is $100 million or a number 1 on the car that could end up another car if the driver changes teams (Merc didn't have the number 1 on their car in 2010 even though they won both). Which one did they benefit from? It was the WCC. BrawnGP are the only team in history that can claim a 100% record of WCC.

.... that's not the choice.

[jjcale]

They don't. Ron Dennis and Frank Williams to name two have specifically said that the WCC is what gets respect in the pitlane and what pays the bills.

What proportion of big teams' revenue comes from prize money?

[velgajski1]

Hard to say, but I'd give WDC advantage. Ultimately, WDC is what people remember and people are the ones really financing the sport (through sponorship money), WCC cash prize is important but probably it brings less worth than a big, fat sponsorship.

[jjcale]

So therefor, it did not matter one jot about the WDC to the team. Whilst it is an accolade for the teams, the WDC is mainly for the drivers and fans, whereas it is the WCC which brings prestige and money to the teams.

Why do people persist in believing that the only income for teams comes from prize money?

And its not the total that matters its difference between two possibilities that is important...

[ForeverF1]

Why do people persist in believing that the only income for teams comes from prize money?

And its not the total that matters its difference between two possibilities that is important...

Anyone knows that the sole income for a team is not from prize monies. Winning the WCC gives the team a known, fixed amount of cash injection which helps the budget for the next season.
How much income is generated or lost when the WDC moves to another team who can then market him for their own gains?

[Gareth]

FF1: Surely, you have your WDC and WCC mixed up there?

Nope.

Team that wins the WDC built the best car. If they'd had two drivers as good as their number 1, they'd have won the WCC also. The failing was not the car - the WDC proves that the car was quick enough to beat any other team. The failing was the second driver.

Team that won the WCC built the second best car but did hire a better second driver than the team that won the WDC.

It just occurred to me as I read through this thread, and I'm not sure I entirely buy it (hence devil's advocate comment above), but thought I'd put it out there for discussion.

I think the above is not entirely correct - but what it demonstrates quite clearly is that both championships are misnomers. Thw WDC isn't a drivers' championship, nor is the WCC a constructor's one - they are both package championships, just the size of the "package" is double in the WCC than it is in the WDC.

[bauss]

Anyone knows that the sole income for a team is not from prize monies. Winning the WCC gives the team a known, fixed amount of cash injection which helps the budget for the next season.
How much income is generated or lost when the WDC moves to another team who can then market him for their own gains?

The real point though is prestige remains with the team that won the WDC even if a driver leaves....

like someone posted above, the WDC remains THE championship that competing in F1 is about (the "driver" part is fooling people). If we admit that is the main things fans care about hence also the sponsors, then you got your answer.

[bauss]

Nope.

Team that wins the WDC built the best car. If they'd had two drivers as good as their number 1, they'd have won the WCC also. The failing was not the car - the WDC proves that the car was quick enough to beat any other team. The failing was the second driver.

Team that won the WCC built the second best car but did hire a better second driver than the team that won the WDC.

It just occurred to me as I read through this thread, and I'm not sure I entirely buy it (hence devil's advocate comment above), but thought I'd put it out there for discussion.

I think the above is not entirely correct - but what it demonstrates quite clearly is that both championships are misnomers. Thw WDC isn't a drivers' championship, nor is the WCC a constructor's one - they are both package championships, just the size of the "package" is double in the WCC than it is in the WDC.

very good point