63 replies to this topic

[ForeverF1]

bauss, on Jun 14 2012, 09:53, said:

The real point though is prestige remains with the team that won the WDC even if a driver leaves....

like someone posted above, the WDC remains THE championship that competing in F1 is about (the "driver" part is fooling people). If we admit that is the main things fans care about hence also the sponsors, then you got your answer.

Driver sponsors will take their sponsorship wherever the driver goes. Engineering and team sponsors will, generally, stay with the team.
I will freely admit, that for the fans and drivers, the WDC is the most important, but, when it comes down to cold hard cash, the position in the WCC is the most important to the teams.

[Calorus]

jjcale, on Jun 14 2012, 08:50, said:

What proportion of big teams' revenue comes from prize money?

Roughly 25-40% -- Ferrari, by far the biggest spenders will spend 300€ million this year, McLaren and RedBull will spend 285€ million.

Title sponsors Vodafone are worth 25-40€ million to McLaren per year for 5 years depending on reports. Ferrari and Red Bull's major sponsors are in house so difficult to judge their major sponsorship income. Ferrari's biggest named sponsor is Santander claimed to be worth up to $40 million (USD) a year over 5 years, in addition they have their long term Marlboro deal dating back since before 1987 which gets little coverage after the official title sponsorship was removed and the terms slightly ammended before Silverstone 2011.

Edited by Calorus, 14 June 2012 - 10:05.

[Zippel]

Atreiu, on Jun 14 2012, 06:10, said:

Ferrari never seemed too proud of their 1999 WCC.

Irvine called it Ferrari's consolation prize or something along those lines during the after race press conference.

[Calorus]

Zippel, on Jun 14 2012, 11:14, said:

Irvine called it Ferrari's consolation prize or something along those lines during the after race press conference.

The man who failed to win the Championship on a plate and was already signed to Jaguar was hardly going to be beaming about it. Drivers don't care about the WCC, in fact the WDC without the WCC is a testimony to the driver's skill.

Edited by Calorus, 14 June 2012 - 10:18.

[velgajski1]

ForeverF1, on Jun 14 2012, 09:03, said:

Driver sponsors will take their sponsorship wherever the driver goes. Engineering and team sponsors will, generally, stay with the team.
I will freely admit, that for the fans and drivers, the WDC is the most important, but, when it comes down to cold hard cash, the position in the WCC is the most important to the teams.

In this case we could say that McLaren might prefer WCC to WDC this season (predicting that Button will not be a serious competitor, could be wrong about this), but if Hamilton signs a 5 year contract then WDC may be more profitable?

[bauss]

ForeverF1, on Jun 14 2012, 10:03, said:

Driver sponsors will take their sponsorship wherever the driver goes. Engineering and team sponsors will, generally, stay with the team.
I will freely admit, that for the fans and drivers, the WDC is the most important, but, when it comes down to cold hard cash, the position in the WCC is the most important to the teams.

how many sponsors did JB take with him to Mclaren?

The main goal of any sporting team is to WIN, the WCC standings is mainly important cos it gives you extra money you can use to try to WIN the main championship, the WDC. What championship carries the most prestige? most mentioned by journalists, historians and the teams themselves? We've established its the one the fans care about the most....which is the primary lifeforce of any sport, without the fans, the sport is nothing.

We saw how much Ferrari celebrated their WCC championship in 2008, we saw how much Red Bull celebrated clinching the WCC compared to clinching the WDC.

It's not comparable....

On a related note, if WCC was the primary goal for Ferrari, Massa would be long gone....

[WitnessX]

bauss, on Jun 14 2012, 12:43, said:

how many sponsors did JB take with him to Mclaren?

Trick question, I dont't think he had any to take. Then neither had Brawn.

bauss, on Jun 14 2012, 12:43, said:

The main goal of any sporting team is to WIN, the WCC standings is mainly important cos it gives you extra money you can use to try to WIN the main championship, the WDC. What championship carries the most prestige? most mentioned by journalists, historians and the teams themselves? We've established its the one the fans care about the most....which is the primary lifeforce of any sport, without the fans, the sport is nothing.

We saw how much Ferrari celebrated their WCC championship in 2008, we saw how much Red Bull celebrated clinching the WCC compared to clinching the WDC.

It's not comparable....

Its not comparable. True. But not in the way your implying. Apples and Oranges.

The question is which one are the "teams" primarily after, not which one do they celebrate more. The WCC tends to be more of the silent celebration in the back-offices, that doesn't mean its any less important to them (the corporate entity).

Inventing an intermediary called a "main championship", and the assigning it the WDC is not the answer. I dont believe there is one answer, it depends on the team and the circumstances at the time.

bauss, on Jun 14 2012, 12:43, said:

On a related note, if WCC was the primary goal for Ferrari, Massa would be long gone....

So by that logic they have Massa there to challenge for the WDC if anything happens to Alonso? (Edit: i.e. its just an example which doesn't seem fit either side of the argument)

Edited by WitnessX, 14 June 2012 - 12:31.

[Juggles]

WitnessX, on Jun 14 2012, 11:30, said:

So by that logic they have Massa there to challenge for the WDC if anything happens to Alonso? (Edit: i.e. its just an example which doesn't seem fit either side of the argument)

Actually bauss's point was a good one. They have Massa there because they don't want to upset Alonso in his bid for a WDC with Ferrari. If they cared more about the WCC surely they would have got rid of Massa after last season?

[Juggles]

ForeverF1, on Jun 14 2012, 08:09, said:

Anyone knows that the sole income for a team is not from prize monies. Winning the WCC gives the team a known, fixed amount of cash injection which helps the budget for the next season.
How much income is generated or lost when the WDC moves to another team who can then market him for their own gains?

I found this question interesting so I decided to crunch the numbers and find out how many drivers won the World Drivers Championship with a team and then immediately moved to another team for the next season.

In 62 full season of F1 the reigning WDC has driven for a team he did not win his championship with 12 times. The number in brackets is the season they started driving for their new team, i.e. the season after they won the WDC:

Ascari (1954), Ferrari --> Lancia
Fangio (1956), Mercedes --> Ferrari
Fangio (1957), Ferrari --> Maserati
Hulme (1968), Brabham --> McLaren
Stewart (1970), Matra --> Tyrrell
Lauda (1978), Ferrari --> Brabham
Piquet (1988), Williams --> Lotus
Prost (1990), McLaren --> Ferrari
Schumacher (1996), Benetton --> Ferrari
Hill (1997), Williams --> Arrows
Alonso (2007), Renault --> McLaren
Button (2010), Brawn --> McLaren

I was hoping the figures would be much lower so I could prove my hypothesis that losing your newly crowned World Champion to another team was too rare to be a major consideration. However, 12 out of 62 years seems remarkably high to me, particularly as the frequency has been fairly uniform over the decades.

I still believe the WDC is more valuable to the teams on purely financial grounds. However, looking at the above statistics I would have to pause for thought if I was a team principal offered the choice of WCC and WDC. Particularly if I was Martin Whitmarsh at McLaren.

In fact, the smaller the team the more likely you would be to value the WCC over the WDC, for two reasons. (1) The extra funding that comes from winning the WCC would be a relatively higher proportion of your revenue, and therefore more valuable to you. (2) Any driver who wins the WDC in a smaller team is likely to be poached sooner rather than later by the top team of the day.

On another note, a user above (I believe called Gareth) pointed out how both championships are package championships. I completely agree with him. The fact that we have two separate championships, and name them in such explicit terms, explains why the vast majority of casual fans and members of the general public will always assume the winner of the WDC in any given year is automatically the best driver.

[WitnessX]

Juggles, on Jun 14 2012, 16:06, said:

Actually bauss's point was a good one. They have Massa there because they don't want to upset Alonso in his bid for a WDC with Ferrari. If they cared more about the WCC surely they would have got rid of Massa after last season?

(Going OT so Ill keep it short...)
I can understand the idea of a teammate "not getting in the way", however in the ideal situation you need a teammate that is also taking big points away from your rivals.

[Calorus]

WitnessX, on Jun 14 2012, 17:39, said:

(Going OT so Ill keep it short...)
I can understand the idea of a teammate "not getting in the way", however in the ideal situation you need a teammate that is also taking big points away from your rivals.

Yup the best situation is Schummy's Barrichello, fast enough to only just lose, well trained enough to move over when he's that little bit faster. WDC & WCC fodder. Really what Massa was before his accident.

"Fernando is faster than you, do you understand? Ok mate good lad, stick with him now, sorry."

[slideways]

Realistically the teams that rely on WCC price money are unlikely to be anywhere near a WDC fight, and vice versa.

[Dolph]

rhukkas, on Jun 13 2012, 23:27, said:

While the financial aspect is true, what you said about 'energising the team' is complete and utter nonsense. It really is.

I mean why on earth would a mechanic headbutt glass after losing JUST the WDC?

I didn't see Ferrari celebrating either when they clinched he 2008 WCC that year... yet the team that DIDN'T win the WCC celebrated like this http://www.f1fanatic...ation2008-2.jpg

The WDC IS the WCC in all but name. If you think they want the WCC over the WDC you're deluded. A team would happily PAY the deficit of not being 1st in the WCC standings to be WDC in any given year.

+1

This is the exact reason a team like Ferrari still runs Massa.

[PretentiousBread]

The fact that Ferrari have retained Massa for this long is living proof that the WDC is what matters the most, as unless they have a very dominant car at their disposal, it is currently impossible for Ferrari to win the constructors with Felipe as one of their drivers.