82 replies to this topic

[olliek88]

Yes, thats right, another series in the already over crowded step ladder to F1.

http://www.msvracing...p-for-2013.aspx

MotorSport Vision (MSV) has announced a groundbreaking new junior single seater series for launch in 2013. The new championship, named Formula 4, has been created to provide a much needed modern low cost series aimed at those starting single seater racing and a stepping stone to higher formulae.

The cars, which will be known as MSV F4-013, will be powered by the cost effective and proven 2 litre Ford Duratec engine, developing 175bhp and featuring a Cosworth engine management system. The gearbox will be more sophisticated than any previous car at this level, being a 6 speed Sadev transmission incorporating paddle shift. Cosworth will also supply the gearbox control system. The cars will run on slick and wet compound tyres provided by Yokohama.

[midgrid]

Doesn't Formula 4 already exist in a different form? Is this an all-new championship adopting the same name, or is the existing series expanding?

[Rob]

Great, another overpriced and unnecessary championship.

[rhukkas]

BRDC President Derek Warwick commented: "I have been very worried over the last few years about how our young British drivers of the future are supposed to make that big move from karting to circuit racing. Back in the day there was a relatively simple ladder if you had the talent; Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 2 and then Formula 1 if you were good enough. We currently have total confusion within our sport in terms of formulae, cost and the best way to gain experience in a cost effective way.

... the best way to solve that problem?? ANOTHER CLASS lol

Edited by rhukkas, 12 September 2012 - 13:40.

[pacificquay]

It makes a lot of sense in the UK as FRenault and FFord have died a death due to costs.

The fact it is BRDC backed says to me it should be successful.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But you have BARC Renaults which are doing quite well actually, and a decent transition out of karting.

[hunnylander]

It's a business.

Edited by hunnylander, 12 September 2012 - 13:45.

[olliek88]

Great, another overpriced and unnecessary championship.

The cost of participation is expected to range from £35,000 for a private entrant to £70,000 for a professional team.

For modern standards thats not that expensive, don't get me wrong its not dirt cheap either.

The idea is right, the lower formulas need to be much more cost effective but the fact its another different series only results in diluting both its own and other series worth.

I wish that the FIA or BRDC or someone would do something about the different series available at each rung of the motorsport ladder. In an ideal (therefore impossible!) world i think it needs to be a little more like - (Using the old school names for simplicity)

F1>>>>>F2 International series>>>>>F3 international series>>F3 national series>>>>>F4 national series

Or something similar, either way we need less series at the same level.

[rhukkas]

For modern standards thats not that expensive, don't get me wrong its not dirt cheap either.

The idea is right, the lower formulas need to be much more cost effective but the fact its another different series only results in diluting both its own and other series worth.

I wish that the FIA or BRDC or someone would do something about the different series available at each rung of the motorsport ladder. In an ideal (therefore impossible!) world i think it needs to be a little more like - (Using the old school names for simplicity)

F1>>>>>F2 International series>>>>>F3 international series>>F3 national series>>>>>F4 national series

Or something similar, either way we need less series at the same level.

While I doubt the projected costs, it doesn't matter how cheap a class is if no-one is looking. You do a year and then disappear. F4 will go down as another class that some 'cash-strapped' will have no choice but to race in.

The main issues is that if the main goal is 'F1' then you will get this continued destruction of so-called lower formula. You can't have a recognised ladder to F1 without costs going through the roof. We have whole countries sponsoring drivers now, and that means they will afford and spend the required amount.

[Les]

I also thought Formula 4 was an existing series?

[blackhand2010]

"New" F2 has been in existence since 2009, and how many of the top 3 in each of those championship years has landed an F1 drive...?
This seems beyond pointless and just seems like another cash in by Dr Palmer, and will give even less hope to young racers.

[dank]

Another nail in Formula Ford's coffin, methinks. Slicks-and-wings being more trendy, than learning the art of mechanical grip, of course.

Edited by dank, 12 September 2012 - 14:40.

[Ross Stonefeld]

First thing I noticed was it had a Ford/Cosworth Duratec in it.

[Red17]

Newbie question(s), how can it be cheaper if, as driver, you will eventually need to upgrade to the more expensive series; how will it be relevant if it clashes with other existing (and established) series?
Seems to me it's actually an additional hurdle when getting out of karting.

[rhukkas]

Another nail in Formula Ford's coffin, methinks. Slicks-and-wings being more trendy, than learning the art of mechanical grip, of course.

racing winged cars aren't trendy, they are essential. F Ford is a redundant and pointless class for anyone with aspirations of F1

[Rob]

racing winged cars aren't trendy, they are essential. F Ford is a redundant and pointless class for anyone with aspirations of F1

Formula Ford is good for learning how to set up a car. There are no wings to distract you.

[Red17]

Formula Ford is good for learning how to set up a car. There are no wings to distract you.

Probably not for long. Considering there are Superkarts maybe we should just turn the european championship into GP5 and keep the whole ladder strictly winged.

[CaptnMark]

I also thought Formula 4 was an existing series?

I've only heard of (but not read) of Formula 4D.

[dank]

racing winged cars aren't trendy, they are essential. F Ford is a redundant and pointless class for anyone with aspirations of F1

No. As has been mentioned previously, FFord is neither redundant nor pointless because it offers young drivers the only real opportunity in their careers to master the art of mechanical grip, which is of significant importance in the development of any driver with F1 ambitions.

With wings, drivers can easily become muddled when it comes to setting up their vehicles, failing to distinguish between the differences between aero and mechanical grip.

Not that any of this matters any more, as FFord looks likely to become a slicks-and-wings category next year in the pursuit of attracting drivers.

Edited by dank, 12 September 2012 - 16:06.

[ExFlagMan]

I also thought Formula 4 was an existing series?

There has been a club scene F4 series in the UK for many years, promoted by the 750MC. It seems to be a catch-all series for redundant cars from single seater series that have been invented, promoted for a few years and then discarded for the next fad.
Cannot remember off hand the details but i think it is for sub-F3 type cars, e.g. FF2000, FF1600 with slicks etc.
No doubt cars from Mr Palmer's new category will end up there when it they outlive their usefullness.

[Fastcake]

As ever, this sounds like someone has the right intentions but it's simply not going to work out. There are already plenty of minor series, one more is just not going to do anyone any good. It's either going to end up dead or dying like half of the them, or some irrelevant backwater like F2. I suspect it'll eventually merge together with some other struggling low level series.

Talking of which, it's quite sad really. While everyone suspected F2 would never be a valued series, it was still a shame that a series that tried to help out drivers who were struggling with the costs ended up ignored and full of mainly no hopes. Though GP2, which was designed to make money for a few mates of Bernie's with the extortionate parts costs, is heading the same way, just with wealthy no hopes that get TV coverage.

Edited by Fastcake, 12 September 2012 - 18:13.

[GX390]

Another series that really isn't needed.

[BullHead]

Well Dr P and his MSV used to do the Formula Palmer Audi series, and I thought that was good. Indeed I believe it got reasonable coverage and attention. He makes a good effort at ensuring success. I miss FPA and hopefully this thing will make up for it. Hopefully there'll be prizes that include drives in higher formulae. Of the all the kart to single seater links, this looks the best on paper anyhow.

[muramasa]

Formula 4
Formula 4S
Formula 5

[Risil]

No. As has been mentioned previously, FFord is neither redundant nor pointless because it offers young drivers the only real opportunity in their careers to master the art of mechanical grip, which is of significant importance in the development of any driver with F1 ambitions.

With wings, drivers can easily become muddled when it comes to setting up their vehicles, failing to distinguish between the differences between aero and mechanical grip.

And fwiw, Formula Ford is the only junior single-seater category I'd actually turn up to watch, these days.

Not that any of this matters any more, as FFord looks likely to become a slicks-and-wings category next year in the pursuit of attracting drivers.

Just put your grievance over there, on top of the mountain of papers we call M. Todt's to-do pile.

Edited by Risil, 12 September 2012 - 22:06.

[KateLM]

Formula Ford may be floundering for various reasons, but I understood that Formula Renault BARC is actually doing quite well this year? And it's that level that this is presumably going to be aimed at. Not a totally dreadful idea but I'm not sure there is going to be sufficient demand to make it a viable alternative - particularly from potential teams. The cars in BARC may be getting on a bit, but that also means that those chassis have been more than paid off. Finding teams to invest in new equipment for a new entry level series in this climate seems like it could be a challenge to me.

And as others have said, founding a new series as a solution to the current confusing mess of a career ladder seems rather counter-productive.

Well Dr P and his MSV used to do the Formula Palmer Audi series, and I thought that was good. Indeed I believe it got reasonable coverage and attention. He makes a good effort at ensuring success. I miss FPA and hopefully this thing will make up for it. Hopefully there'll be prizes that include drives in higher formulae. Of the all the kart to single seater links, this looks the best on paper anyhow.

Watch F2 then, it's practically the same thing.

[Les]

There has been a club scene F4 series in the UK for many years, promoted by the 750MC. It seems to be a catch-all series for redundant cars from single seater series that have been invented, promoted for a few years and then discarded for the next fad.
Cannot remember off hand the details but i think it is for sub-F3 type cars, e.g. FF2000, FF1600 with slicks etc.
No doubt cars from Mr Palmer's new category will end up there when it they outlive their usefullness.

Ah ok! Thanks. I did think I had read about it in the club racing pages of Autosport.

[BullHead]

A full 24 car grid is signed up. We'll see how that is sustained as the season goes on and costs mount up. 4 of the buyers are individuals. Will be interesting to see how Ginetta junior champ Charlie Robertson measures up in single seaters.

The website to me anyway is engaging and informative, I'm looking forward to seeing how this series goes on...

http://www.formula4.com/

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think we should clarify that 24 cars have been purchased. I think there are 10-12 drivers signed.

[Myrvold]

What! Never knew Falco Wauer was racing as an american! Thought he was racing as a Norwegian. Weird.

[BackmarkerUK]

What! Never knew Falco Wauer was racing as an american! Thought he was racing as a Norwegian. Weird.

Norwegian-American - I guess he's hoping there's more sponsorship for an American driver, than a Norwegian driver.

Also, Walkinshaw Racing!

[Myrvold]

Norwegian-American - I guess he's hoping there's more sponsorship for an American driver, than a Norwegian driver.

Kinda always understood when he was driving in Norway that he wasn't 100& Norwegian. Oh well, in Europe I don't think there are much difference if you are Norwegian or from the US

[lustigson]

Formula 4
Formula 4S
Formula 5

And next, we'll have simply the New Formula.

[Bloggsworth]

Johnnie Walker rises again - F4 first started with small M/C engined single seaters before transmogrifying into some really beautiful little Hillman Imp engined creations like the Vixen.

[noikeee]

... the best way to solve that problem?? ANOTHER CLASS lol

I don't really understand the argument of the ladder being confusing. For the fans, sure, but the drivers and insiders know very well how the series compare to each other. I fail to see how that stiffles the progress of the drivers.

[BullHead]

http://www.formula4....ot-on-itv4.aspx

F4 on UK telly, good stuff. Looking forward to it.

[Fastcake]

http://www.formula4....ot-on-itv4.aspx

F4 on UK telly, good stuff. Looking forward to it.

How did they manage that?

Are ITV desperate for programming or something, broadcasting a bottom tier motorsport series that isn't attached to another seems very unusual. Suppose that may help a little to attract sponsors, it's hardly an easy thing at the moment.

Edited by Fastcake, 25 February 2013 - 20:08.

[Risil]

How did they manage that?

Are ITV desperate for programming or something, broadcasting a bottom tier motorsport series that isn't attached to another seems very unusual. Suppose that may help a little to attract sponsors, it's hardly an easy thing at the moment.

Jonathan Palmer's not averse to paying for airtime.

[Ross Stonefeld]

That will be an interesting one. Live ITV4 BTCC stuff, and I mean like Porsche Cup and what not, gets decent TV ratings for what it is.

[Fastcake]

Jonathan Palmer's not averse to paying for airtime.

True, but you would of expected it to go to Motors TV or something.

[EightGear]

Hopefully WRC will be conformed on ITV soon.

[DanardiF1]

True, but you would of expected it to go to Motors TV or something.

Palmer knows that BTCC is the biggest motorsport TV audience in the country after F1, and that as well as a low entry price, a highly visible TV package is just another carrot for drivers to come and race in F4.

I also think it's a bit of a message to SRO and their (mis)management of Brit F3... 'Look we got our series on the TOCA bill, perhaps we should run F3 as well?'

[Ross Stonefeld]

No I think F4 is separate from BTCC. Formula Ford has that slot and presumably the bit of live coverage that goes with it? The F4 broadcasts seem to be a week behind the actual race.

[BullHead]

If it really pulls off as claimed, however the deal was brokered, it is a coup for the new series.
A bottom rung level on TV, with it's own show is a great prospect for new drivers and teams / managers, making a mark and attracting a bit of sponsorship becoming a real possibility.
It's good.
If I was breaking out of karting, it's where I'd want to go....

[ExFlagMan]

True, but you would of expected it to go to Motors TV or something.

Why go to satellite when terrestial TV is willing?

[Fastcake]

Why go to satellite when terrestial TV is willing?

That's the point, it seems odd that ITV is willing to broadcast it.

[rhukkas]

That's the point, it seems odd that ITV is willing to broadcast it.

That would be assuming ITV are footing the costs. F4 could be doing the production in house?

[tintin1975]

Are ITV desperate for programming or something, broadcasting a bottom tier motorsport series that isn't attached to another seems very unusual.

On the face of it, it's not attached... but it's run by MSV, so linked to Superbikes.

[Brandz07]

On the face of it, it's not attached... but it's run by MSV, so linked to Superbikes.

MSV's a lot more than Superbikes.

It's nice to see that it's supporting DTM at Brands Hatch.

[tintin1975]

MSV's a lot more than Superbikes.

Indeed... but Superbikes is the other MSV series which is on ITV. And probably its most valuable property.