128 replies to this topic

[Muppetmad]

I thought this deserved a thread of its own, as I think it's a contentious issue that raises a lot of issues.

Frankly though, I think who is to blame is very clear: Grosjean quite clearly placed his car and de la Rosa turned into him because he didn't look in his mirrors. He cannot claim to be the innocent party as the blue flags were clearly displayed and it was his job to get out of the way. I hope de la Rosa gets smacked with an appropriate penalty. If Grosjean needs more awareness of what is around him as some pundits have attested, de la Rosa deserves the same treatment.

Now, whether what Grosjean did was wise or not can certainly be questioned. The fact that de la Rosa was on an out-lap, and was being shown the blue flags, makes me more sympathetic though; de la Rosa should have been aware and should have left the space.

Edited by Muppetmad, 24 November 2012 - 17:17.

[Disgrace]

Grosjean is driving with no confidence in his decision making. He hasn't got a contract yet. He has taken risks and it hasn't worked and when he has tried to stay out of trouble, it has landed him in more.

He put himself in a position dependant on de la Rosa seeing him, which he didn't, so it ended in disaster. Pretty much entirely his fault.

Edited by Disgrace, 24 November 2012 - 17:19.

[MrMontecarlo]

Was Pedro on a flying lap? If he was, then tough luck for Grosjean, Pedro was on the racing line.

[Muppetmad]

Was Pedro on a flying lap? If he was, then tough luck for Grosjean, Pedro was on the racing line.

No, Pedro was shown the blue flags.

[Albert Quintana]

Some food for thought:

1) How do you "clearly place your car" and then ram the front wing to the back of the car in front

2) Which blue flags should you look at if you are in your timed lap?

3) Shouldn't the car behind be aware of the speed of the car in front? Esècially when there is only one racing line.

4) If there is a straight coming (and slipstream)... why do you choose that spot to try to pass?

[hijinx]

why is Pedro shown blue flags during Quali??? I'm surprised

[SpaMaster]

I thought this deserved a thread of its own, as I think it's a contentious issue that raises a lot of issues.

Frankly though, I think who is to blame is very clear: Grosjean quite clearly placed his car and de la Rosa turned into him because he didn't look in his mirrors. He cannot claim to be the innocent party as the blue flags were clearly displayed and it was his job to get out of the way. I hope de la Rosa gets smacked with an appropriate penalty. If Grosjean needs more awareness of what is around him as some pundits have attested, de la Rosa deserves the same treatment.

Now, whether what Grosjean did was wise or not can certainly be questioned. The fact that de la Rosa was on an out-lap, and was being shown the blue flags, makes me more sympathetic though; de la Rosa should have been aware and should have left the space.

Sorry, de la Rosa does not have to get out of the way. He is trying to set his own time. This is not the race where Grosjean was one lap up on him.

I don't think anyone should be punished. But, Grosjean should have avoided this. Considering the speed gap that exists with HRT, Grosjean should have never got that close to de la Rosa. Some fights are not even worht fighting for.

[BetaVersion]

Was Pedro on a flying lap? If he was, then tough luck for Grosjean, Pedro was on the racing line.

are you new to motorsport? this is a serious question

HRT have deficit to other cars mainly in corners because they lack downforce. They also lack a bit on the straights because Cosworth have slightly less power than other engines(such as Renault in this case) and they also don't have KERS.

Still, there is no way PDLR could be that much slower than Grosjean on a straight if he was on a flyer with his HRT

He was blatantly cruising on track and I think you must be some kind of newbie into the sport to not realize it imediatelly.

EDIT: Reading the thread entirely, it seems there are lot's of newbies to the sport(which I doubt) or racing is harder to grasp, for the average person, than I always thought, sorry!

Well, just to back up what I said, here's the speed trap info from Q:

15 10 Romain Grosjean 14:13:18 308.7
16 20 Heikki Kovalainen 14:17:59 307.8
17 23 Narain Karthikeyan 14:18:08 307.7

24 22 Pedro de la Rosa 14:06:17 295.5

You can see by Karthikeyan's mark that HRT lacks just a bit on the straight. PDLR that was incredibly slow on the straights turning into people in the racing line.

He's lucky I'm not a steward, as he wouldn't race tomorrow in that case

Edited by BetaVersion, 24 November 2012 - 17:37.

[MikeTekRacing]

Sorry, de la Rosa does not have to get out of the way. He is trying to set his own time. This is not the race where Grosjean was one lap up on him.

I don't think anyone should be punished. But, Grosjean should have avoided this. Considering the speed gap that exists with HRT, Grosjean should have never got that close to de la Rosa. Some fights are not even worht fighting for.

do you know for certain de la rosa was on a timed lap? why are there blue flags shown?

[Muppetmad]

Some food for thought:

1) How do you "clearly place your car" and then ram the front wing to the back of the car in front
Quite easily - you can position your car but then have the driver in front turn into you, as happened with this incident. Grosjean showed no indecisiveness, he didn't move up on de la Rosa, he put his car in the gap provided and de la Rosa turned into him.

2) Which blue flags should you look at if you are in your timed lap?
I'm not sure what you mean by this; de la Rosa was not on a timed lap. If he was, then the blue flags should not have been displayed.

3) Shouldn't the car behind be aware of the speed of the car in front? Esècially when there is only one racing line.
As I said in my first post, I'm not necessarily saying that what Grosjean did was wise - I'm saying de la Rosa was at fault. A man who kills another for provoking him is still at fault, even if what the other person did wasn't wise.

4) If there is a straight coming (and slipstream)... why do you choose that spot to try to pass?
It would have compromised his line into turn 1, losing him time. Besides, since the blue flags were displayed, Grosjean quite rightly assumed that de la Rosa would give him the space that the blue flag demands.

---

Sorry, de la Rosa does not have to get out of the way. He is trying to set his own time. This is not the race where Grosjean was one lap up on him.

Well, the blue flags were displayed, suggesting de la Rosa was not on a hot lap - if this is the case, and a mistake wasn't made, then he does have to get out of the way.

Edited by Muppetmad, 24 November 2012 - 17:33.

[Jackmancer]

Reminds me a bit of Button/Hamilton in Canada, though Button at the time was actually aware of Hamilton. De la Rosa had no idea. I think DLR had a slow gettaway from the grass in the final corner, that's why his speed was a lot lower. He should have been watching his mirrors then.

[Shiroo]

Still Grosjean is driving a Lotus, 4th team in F1. I'm just tired of him already, as Lotus supporter, he has raw pace, but has 0 awarness. He doesnt deserve 4th team seat atm, he should go to Marussia or smt and learn how to fight and drive in F1. Atm he is pretty useless

[Konsta]

I think today´s mistake was along the line of the previous ones - there must be something "wrong" with RoGro´s peripheral vision or/and spatial awareness. He just cannot comprehend where other cars are and especially where they are going to.
A stupid mistake once again - stupidity has unfortunately become his trademark instead of speed.

Edited by Konsta, 24 November 2012 - 17:35.

[Muppetmad]

I think today´s mistake was along the line of the previous ones - there must be something "wrong" with RoGro´s peripheral vision. He just cannot comprehend where other cars are and especially where they are going to.
A stupid mistake once again - stupidity has unfortunately become his trademark instead of speed.

But surely this criticism should be directed at de la Rosa - Grosjean wasn't the one turning into somebody else when the blue flags were being displayed.

[Shiroo]

but Grosjean could back off. He never back off. And that's one aspect of F1 drivers, they can back off, and overtake in different place. For Grosjean, he thinks that race ends after start, and he has only 1 overtake chance during whole race

[keeppari]

Fortunately HRT is going belly-up after this race.

[swerved]

I think today´s mistake was along the line of the previous ones - there must be something "wrong" with RoGro´s peripheral vision or/and spatial awareness. He just cannot comprehend where other cars are and especially where they are going to.
A stupid mistake once again - stupidity has unfortunately become his trademark instead of speed.

Thats about it, The time has passed where allowances could be made because of his speed, not so long a go people were ripping into Maldonado, rightfully, for being a bit of an idiot, imo Grosjean is even worse, how many chances do they give him ?

Worst of all, when running round with no front wing he nearly punted Kimi off, he should have disappeared up his own arsehole before almost taking out his teammate.

Edited by swerved, 24 November 2012 - 17:41.

[BetaVersion]

But surely this criticism should be directed at de la Rosa - Grosjean wasn't the one turning into somebody else when the blue flags were being displayed.

Pretty much. Grosjean is already "targeted" or "picked" by most people. Whenever he will be involved in a accident, people will automatically blame him no matter if the other driver was 100% guilty on the collision as was PDLR today

[MortenF1]

I want to lay this at veteran de la Rosa's feet.
It's natural, at that part of the track, that you want to go on the inside. de la Rosa should've been more awake I think.

[schumimercamg]

De la Rosa's DRS was broken hence his slow speed but he was on a flyer.

I kind of proportion blame evenly on this one. De la Rosa should have been a bit more forgiving but Grosjean shouldn't have stuck his nose into a closing gap.

[hijinx]

why do people keep saying PDL was turning into Gros when Gros hit PDL in the back???

[sergeym]

But surely this criticism should be directed at de la Rosa - Grosjean wasn't the one turning into somebody else when the blue flags were being displayed.

Not sure about that. PDLR started moving to the left before Grosjean attempted to overtake. He just went for the closing gap.

[UPRC]

I personally feel that both of these fools were responsible for this one.

[PorcupineTroy]

I think Pedro really should have been aware of where Grosjean was, seeing as he was given blue flags. In hindsight Grosjean should have backed out of it, but I don't think he's really to blame.

If Grosjean had been the car in front and Alonso or Vettel had been the car behind, Grosjean would probably get a race ban for the incident.

[SpaMaster]

do you know for certain de la rosa was on a timed lap? why are there blue flags shown?

I know for certain that he was not on an in-lap. Then, he is not obliged to pull over even if was on an out-lap because that is after the lost corner just a few meters before the start-line and he would have been all set for a timed lap. He cannot compromise his upcoming flying lap by slowing down at that point of time. The conventional reason for out-lap and in-lap is precisely the reason why he would have not to pull over this time, even though he may have been technically on an outlap.

Blue flags do not mean move out the way. It only means a faster car behind. Moving over interpretation is depending on the context. de la Rosa did not have to move over in this case.

Edited by SpaMaster, 24 November 2012 - 17:50.

[Konsta]

Not sure about that. PDLR started moving to the left before Grosjean attempted to overtake. He just went for the closing gap.

Highlights the stupidity of RG somewhat. OTOH him almost taking Kimi out and at least screwing the laps of everyone behind him should allow for a decent spanking.

[Albert Quintana]

Good video.

Where are the blue flags?
I still can't see the "clearly positioning" of Grosjean...

DLR said he was in a flying lap on TV and that there was only a racing line.

[Seanspeed]

He put himself in a position dependant on de la Rosa seeing him, which he didn't, so it ended in disaster.

Drivers have to put themselves into that position all throughout a race weekend. Expecting that cars around you are keeping aware of their situation isn't too much to ask I dont think. Especially if you're in an HRT, your eyes should be on those mirrors a fair amount. There was room enough for both of them to get through cleanly, which is what Grosjean clearly thought was going to happen.

[wacktifosi]

Pretty much. Grosjean is already "targeted" or "picked" by most people. Whenever he will be involved in a accident, people will automatically blame him no matter if the other driver was 100% guilty on the collision as was PDLR today

I don't think anyone is trying to say that Gro was the more guilty party in that accident. The point is he had a few options as he came up behind DLR and he chose to stick his car in a rapidly closing gap and it ended quite predictably. This is a persistent problem for him and you can't just ignore that when looking at the incident.

It isn't Gro's fault that he stuck his nose in there and got it chopped off, but he could have gone around the outside - he clearly had the speed to - or he could have lifted but he chose his path and the result was unfortunate for him.

Also, to be clear, I think it was a totally unacceptable error from Pedro and I think it should be a reprimand at least. I would advocate for more but after the lenient penalties we've seen for collisions this year I doubt we'll see one.

[skywing]

Good video.

Where are the blue flags?
I still can't see the "clearly positioning" of Grosjean...

DLR said he was in a flying lap on TV and that there was only a racing line.

The blue flag is there at 0.07 in the video. But obviously thats unnecessary if DLR was on a flyer.

[Wingcommander]

But surely this criticism should be directed at de la Rosa - Grosjean wasn't the one turning into somebody else when the blue flags were being displayed.

I have no idea how anyone can think it was de la Rosa's fault. IMO Grosjean stuck his nose into a gap that was always gonna disappear.

[Atreiu]

Grosjean was lucky not to crash head on to the barrier at the pit exit. He totally blew it there, DLR didnt make a single unexpected move.

[eREr]

Good video.

Where are the blue flags?
I still can't see the "clearly positioning" of Grosjean...

DLR said he was in a flying lap on TV and that there was only a racing line.

At 7s and 14s.

[Seanspeed]

The blue flag is there at 0.07 in the video. But obviously thats unnecessary if DLR was on a flyer.

It would have at least alerted him that somebody was coming up on him quickly, though.

[johnmhinds]

Were they both on timed laps?

I think Grosjean should have thought ahead and dropped back a bit further and qualified with the next lap, rather than rushing it all at that one point.

It was mid way through Q1, he was in the wrong place to get a good lap, and there was no need to force the point with the HRT.

Edited by johnmhinds, 24 November 2012 - 17:59.

[Seanspeed]

I have no idea how anyone can think it was de la Rosa's fault. IMO Grosjean stuck his nose into a gap that was always gonna disappear.

It wasn't always going to disappear. Had PDLR seen him, they would both have had room.

[TheWilliamzer]

Anyway, PDLR won't be affected if there's a penalty, he's always last or 23rd..

[ZZei]

Why would there be blue flags? The marshalls dont know if the driver is on a fast or a cooloutlap. DLR could have been or just starting a flyer. Maybe Pedros fault more, but grosjean wasnt using his head, once again. Plus grosjean getting back to the pits was dreadful, ruining everyones lap who was behind him. When was his last incidentfree weekenk?

[swerved]

I have no idea how anyone can think it was de la Rosa's fault. IMO Grosjean stuck his nose into a gap that was always gonna disappear.

Not for the first time


Or the 2nd time


Or the 3rd time


Etc etc etc


Enough is enough surely.

[skywing]

It would have at least alerted him that somebody was coming up on him quickly, though.

True but I'm not sure how actively a driver on a flyer pays attention to his mirrors or flags.

[Skinnyguy]

It isn't Gro's fault that he stuck his nose in there and got it chopped off, but he could have gone around the outside - he clearly had the speed to - or he could have lifted but he chose his path and the result was unfortunate for him.

Also, to be clear, I think it was a totally unacceptable error from Pedro and I think it should be a reprimand at least. I would advocate for more but after the lenient penalties we've seen for collisions this year I doubt we'll see one.

Fair analysis. From a racing POV, de la Rosa should take the blame maybe.

But if you´re in a Lotus, in Q1, in that situation, it´s moronic not going the safer route around the outside/lifting and waiting for another lap. Spoiling a full quali session trying to make one lap count is not smart.

[NotSoSilentBob]

No, Pedro was shown the blue flags.

They show the HRT's the blue flags regardless.

If he's on a flyer, he chooses the line. It's the overtaker's responsibility to overtake cleanly & efficiently.

I'd say the incident was at worst 50/50. Pedro may well have been looking in his right side mirror for Grosjean (as well as concentrating on his own lap), and wouldnt have thought Frenchie would be squeezing up the inside. Again, if anything, it shows some spacial deficiencies in Grosjean's racecraft.

[keeppari]

He cannot compromise his upcoming flying lap by slowing down at that point of time.

Especially when driving a HRT and there's the 23rd grid spot at stake.

[Niceone]

1. Pedro was on flyer + on normal racing line.
2. Romain was almost completely behind.

I don't get what Grosjean were thinking? He went for very small gap that were going to dissapear if Pedro were to take normal driving line. Considering everything it was 100% Grosjean's fault

Edited by Niceone, 24 November 2012 - 18:03.

[One]

I feel for Romain, but as they are racing and qualifying there is always an element of who's got the corner...

1. Quite obviously Romain was so much behind and at the place as he tried, it was not going to be 100% certain that Pedro de la Rosa was just giving up on his preparation to the timed lap.
2. For Pedro it might have been easier if he gave Romain a go some corners earlier as his lap will be most probably slower than the one of Romain. Why this was not the case, I am not sure. Romain said that he was behind PDLR the whole lap.
3. Romain was behind PDLR, meaning, in racing term he is in the position to avoid whatever situation...

[sergeym]

It wasn't always going to disappear. Had PDLR seen him, they would both have had room.

PDLR has taken normal racing line through this corner. Looks at the video - he start moving to the left *before* Grosjean does the same and does not change his direction. Grosjean completely ignores it (despite having clear track to the right) and drives into PDLR.

Edited by sergeym, 24 November 2012 - 18:01.

[eREr]

The blue flag is there at 0.07 in the video. But obviously thats unnecessary if DLR was on a flyer.

But it's a good indication that somebody who is much quicker is around him, so PDLR should be careful. Grosjean put his car to the left much earlier, PDLR should see that.

But it's true that RG didn't acted according to the situation, he didn't brake when he saw PDLR was turning into him.

[Seanspeed]

True but I'm not sure how actively a driver on a flyer pays attention to his mirrors or flags.

If you're in an HRT, you'd think quite often still.

A lot of you dont really seem to realize how much these guys have to cooperate out there. You cant just go into 'blind' mode cuz you're on a hotlap.

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 November 2012 - 18:02.

[Yhamm]

is it me or DRS not even open on the HRT?

[Seanspeed]

is it me or DRS not even open on the HRT?

There was apparently a problem with it. Which should further reinforce that PDLR should be keeping an eye on cars coming up behind him on that long straight.