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Overtaking in 2012: statistics and analysis


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#1 mnmracer

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 23:45

What a year it's been again, in many aspects, and overtaking was no different. Whether it was Massa's crazy move on Senna in Singapore, Vettel's amazing comeback in Abu Dhabi, or the crazy circumstances that saw all drivers bar the HRTs overtake in Brazil, there was plenty of on-track action to be had in 2012.

Although the introduction of DRS in 2011 had a big impact -it saw more than tripple the amount of overtakes- something has to be said for the competitiveness of the field as well. With the cars being so equal, 2010 (remember, pre-DRS) already saw the most amount of overtakes (average per GP) since 1991. With 1135 on-track overtakes in 2012, this season was just 17 overtakes off the 2011-record.

And just when you thought it would be almost impossible to see as much action as we've seen in Turkey (125 overtakes) and Canada (126) last year, this season came to a bang with an unprecedented 144 overtakes in just 63 racing laps (8 behind the safety car).

Top overtakers in 2012
I've taken the 10 drivers from the top 5 teams, and categorized the types of overtakes, from 'all overtakes' to 'overtakes on top cars only with equal tires'. At the end of this article, you can see the numbers per race.

The overtaking figures -courtesy of Clip The Apex- for each race (across all data sets) do not include:
  • Position changes on the first lap of the race
  • Position changes due to drivers lapping backmarkers
  • Positions gained in the pits
  • Positions gained due to drivers yielding
  • Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.

All overtakes
1. Sebastian Vettel - 74 on-track overtakes
1. Mark Webber - 74
3. Felipe Massa - 65
4. Lewis Hamilton - 55
4. Romain Grosjean - 55

All overtakes, without backmarkers
Disgarding the overtakes on the teams of HRT, Marussia and Caterham
1. Sebastian Vettel - 51 on-track overtakes
2. Lewis Hamilton - 46
2. Mark Webber - 46
4. Felipe Massa - 45
5. Jenson Button - 41

All overtakes, without backmarkers, with equal tires
Disgarding the overtakes on the teams of HRT, Marussia and Caterham
Disgarding overtakes on cars with more than 5 lap older tires
1. Sebastian Vettel - 29 on-track overtakes
2. Jenson Button - 26
3. Mark Webber - 24
4. Kimi Räikkönen - 23
4. Felipe Massa - 23

All overtakes, only on 5 top teams
Counting only overtakes on the teams of Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes
1. Sebastian Vettel - 28 on-track overtakes
2. Lewis Hamilton - 25
3. Jenson Button - 22
4. Kimi Räikkönen - 21
5. Felipe Massa - 16

All overtakes, only on 5 top teams, with equal tires
Counting only overtakes on the teams of Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Lotus and Mercedes
Disgarding overtakes on cars with more than 5 lap older tires
1. Sebastian Vettel - 17 on-track overtakes
2. Kimi Räikkönen - 16
3. Jenson Button - 14
4. Lewis Hamilton - 13
5. Felipe Massa - 12

Overview
Posted Image

- 2012 overtakes races 1 to 5
- 2012 overtakes races 6 to 10
- 2012 overtakes races 11 to 15
- 2012 overtakes races 16 to 20

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#2 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 00:33

Great work mnmracer. Thanks for sharing. :up:

#3 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 00:39

btw, its interesting to see a certain guy 'who apparently couldnt overtake' lead each and every stat. Just goes to show what a stellar job Seb has done this season. The more you analyse this year, the more you realise that Seb has earnt this title the hard way. Im glad I was able to follow and cheer him to this title this year. (MA)

#4 XOR

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:03

certain guy 'who apparently couldnt overtake' lead each and every stat

not a big deal these days

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.



#5 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:07

not a big deal these days


But that rule does apply to everyone right?

#6 XOR

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:25

if everyone could drive RB8

#7 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:34

if everyone could drive RB8


Which incidentally is widely accepted to be a car that is not ideally suited for overtaking...

#8 Shiroo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:43

Which incidentally is widely accepted to be a car that is not ideally suited for overtaking...

doesn't matter. Haters gonna hate.

#9 toroRosso

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:52

surprising stats.. vettel definetly getting more comfortable with the car each year. I think they've improved the overtaking chances with the rb and that piece of info is outdated..by few years

#10 XOR

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 01:52

Which incidentally is widely accepted to be a car that is not ideally suited for overtaking...

and Abu Dhabi 2012 is the best proof :)

#11 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:07

and Abu Dhabi 2012 is the best proof :)


Absolutely.

Even with his set up changes - that were intended to make the car more racier - RBR's top speed was barely a match for that of Mclaren and and Ferrari. Even with DRS and supposedly faster tyres, the RBR couldnt muster up a top speed that would allow him to comfortably pass Button in the DRS zone, inspite of Seb trying every trick in the book. Ultimately it took a ballsy no-holds-barred move around the outside of Button to get by.

On the contrary, if Abu Dhabi was proof for anything, it was proof for Seb's ability to overcome the deficiencies of his car that refused to make passing easy.

But the greatest testament to it was Spa, where his car simply refused to allow him to overtake in the DRS-zone, forcing him to go for high risk moves on his opponents at the Bus-Stop chicane.

If seb could talk to his car, here is a conversation he might have had with it that day...

Seb: (pushing on the accelerator and activating DRS at the kemmel straight) Come on baby. You can go faster. I know you can. Come on baby.
Abbey: (Groaning with maximum revs) This is all I can push. Cant go any faster.
Seb: Try a little harder will ya. My championship challenge depends on this.
Abbey: But Im giving my everything. Im sorry I cant do any better.
Seb: (after some thought) Ok. Ive decided. Lets try and take them down - one by one - at the Bus stop.
Abbey: The Bus stop? Thats very risky. You know what happened out there two years ago right?
Seb: Yes. But I need to take risks now. This is becoming critical.
Abbey: You sure about it.
Seb: Absolutely. Just hang in there.
Abbey: (with every move at the bus stop) Yes. Yes. Yes. Yabbadabbadooooo.



(MA)

Edited by gillesthegenius, 02 December 2012 - 02:37.


#12 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:17

surprising stats.. vettel definetly getting more comfortable with the car each year. I think they've improved the overtaking chances with the rb and that piece of info is outdated..by few years


Not quite. You just have to watch Seb's 3 charges through the field to realise it.

Spa: Even with DRS RBR seemed to lose time in the straights.
Abu Dhabi: Even with a full-on race set up, fresher tyres and DRS; the RBR struggled to generate the top speed required to comfortably overtake top cars like Mclaren.
Interlagos: Vettel (I know with a broken car) was losing out to even Kobayashi in the straights when it was dry. Seb came through the field due to exemplary driving in the wet. (MA)

#13 BenettonB192

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:31

Just shows how much nonsense the "Vettel can't overtake" blathering from 2-3 years ago was.

#14 XOR

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:02

Mclaren and Ferrari


I heard somewhere that f1 has more than 3 teams.
No doubt it could be difficult to overtake Ferrari or McLaren, however midfielders have very little chance to defend position according to new rules.
i don't know if someone missed "trulli train"

#15 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 04:24

I heard somewhere that f1 has more than 3 teams.
No doubt it could be difficult to overtake Ferrari or McLaren, however midfielders have very little chance to defend position according to new rules.
i don't know if someone missed "trulli train"


Excuse me.

Seb is leading every stat including the one that considers the overtakes made only on the top 5 cars.

If Seb had it easy against the midfielders, then the others must have had it easy as well. But then why couldnt they have better stats than him? Im not saying that this shows Seb is the best at overtaking, Im just saying that Seb is not shitty at overtaking like you seem to try to imply. Infact he is up there with the very best.

If you cant see it. I cant educate you any more on this. :D

Btw, I love the way you totally avoid the content of my post, except 3 words.
Absolutely Brilliant.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Edited by gillesthegenius, 02 December 2012 - 04:31.


#16 itsademo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 05:53

btw, its interesting to see a certain guy 'who apparently couldnt overtake' lead each and every stat. Just goes to show what a stellar job Seb has done this season. The more you analyse this year, the more you realise that Seb has earnt this title the hard way. Im glad I was able to follow and cheer him to this title this year. (MA)

only if you ignore the fact his team mate did just as many overtakes so looks a lot like a far faster car round a track then a far better overtaker
After all if Vettel had not made his mistake in the last race he would have been at best 3rd or 4th in overtakes.
guess you want to ignore its his mistakes that make him look so good :rotfl:

edit add
If you want to see how floored the stats are just look at vettel and webber both have 50% of team overtakes yet somehow vettel beats webber in every stat going
looks like someone has been massaging the figures somewhere

Edited by itsademo, 02 December 2012 - 06:02.


#17 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:32

only if you ignore the fact his team mate did just as many overtakes so looks a lot like a far faster car round a track then a far better overtaker
After all if Vettel had not made his mistake in the last race he would have been at best 3rd or 4th in overtakes.
guess you want to ignore its his mistakes that make him look so good :rotfl:

edit add
If you want to see how floored the stats are just look at vettel and webber both have 50% of team overtakes yet somehow vettel beats webber in every stat going
looks like someone has been massaging the figures somewhere


See how Seb prevails over Mark as the stats become more and more refined?

After matching Seb for total number of overtakes(50-50), he is not even in the top 5 of the most refined stats that consider only top teams in almost similar tyres (61-39). Did you pay attention to that?

Also did you pay attention to that fact that my statement that 'Seb leads every statistic' is still right inspite of Mark matching him, only in the least refined of them.

Btw I think mnm racer will answer you about your statement that Seb would have been third or fourth best in the stats had he not been punted to the back in Brazil, because I can remember mnmracer's stats without the Brazil race having Seb close to or at the top of most of the stats.

No one is trying to suggest these figures show that Seb is the best out there when it comes to overtaking. So you dont have to get that riled up buddy.

Cheers.

#18 superuser

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:21

These stats are fake! It can't be that Vettel made almost twice the top 5 overtakes than Alonso! We all know that Alonso is much better and Vettel can't overtake! Right?

/sarcasm off

#19 03011969

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:51

btw, its interesting to see a certain guy 'who apparently couldnt overtake' lead each and every stat. Just goes to show what a stellar job Seb has done this season. The more you analyse this year, the more you realise that Seb has earnt this title the hard way. Im glad I was able to follow and cheer him to this title this year. (MA)

Can you tell me who ever said Vettel couldn't overtake?

All I recall is Christian Horner after every race saying that 'Vettel has proved wrong all those who say he cannot overtake', but I've never actually found out who all these people are that Christian Horner says Vettel has proved wrong. I suspect (but look forward to being proved wrong) that it is just a further example of disingenuousness by the Christian 'king of disingenuous' Horner.

Edited by 3011969, 02 December 2012 - 09:00.


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#20 gillesthegenius

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 08:58

Can you tell me who ever said Vettel couldn't overtake?

All I recall is Christian Horner after every race saying that 'Vettel has proved wrong all those who say he cannot overtake', but I've never actually found out who all these people Christian Horner thinks Vettel has proved wrong.


I dont know whom Christian Horner is reffering to. But Ive had plenty of debates with many fellow forumers who have insisted that Seb cant overtake. You just have to go through the old threads to find that out, coz it wouldnt be nice for me to come up with a list of everyone who has argued with me saying Vettel cant overtake.

#21 03011969

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:04

I dont know whom Christian Horner is reffering to. But Ive had plenty of debates with many fellow forumers who have insisted that Seb cant overtake. You just have to go through the old threads to find that out, coz it wouldnt be nice for me to come up with a list of everyone who has argued with me saying Vettel cant overtake.

Ah Ok - so potentially Christian Horner was talking about people who post on internet forums rather than anybody with credibility or from the industry?

Well, I insist that Fernando Alonso murders cute puppies.

At the end of next season I certainly look forward to Christian Horner repeatedly making public how impressed he is that Alonso hasn't murdered any cute puppies when somebody on internet forum at some stage somewhere has insisted Alonso does murder cute puppies.*

The whole thing is somewhat analogous to a straw man argument really. Create a myth for the sole purpose of destroying it. The sad thing is people will fall for Horner's myth/destroy cycle, and in the end a couple of clueless dicks on a forum who make some baseless claim are ironically given credibility by somebody who should know better, like Horner, by re-enforcing the myth for the sole purpose of using it to "prove" his guy is better than people think - those people being a couple of internet forum clueless dicks.

*Assuming Alonso doesn't actually murder any cute puppies of course. My scheme falls down somewhat if it is revealed his murderous inclinations towards said photogenic juvenile canines.

Edited by 3011969, 02 December 2012 - 10:31.


#22 Kelateboy

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:10

btw, its interesting to see a certain guy 'who apparently couldnt overtake' lead each and every stat. Just goes to show what a stellar job Seb has done this season. The more you analyse this year, the more you realise that Seb has earnt this title the hard way. Im glad I was able to follow and cheer him to this title this year. (MA)

He was saddled with this perception in the middle of 2010, when he was not even a World Champion.

3 years and 3 world championships later, things changed.

#23 H2H

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:13


An excellent first fact-based post, something which should happen more often in this forum. In this case the facts speak for themselves, not that they are in any way surprising for guys actually watching the races.



#24 Trust

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:46

Can you deduce last two races in championship and also erase all Vettel's overtakes on Webber, and Torro Rossos? Than put statistics again to see the results.

#25 DrProzac

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:49

Nice post, but what's missing is non DRS assisted overtakes..

#26 fastwriter

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:54

Can you deduce last two races in championship and also erase all Vettel's overtakes on Webber, and Torro Rossos? Than put statistics again to see the results.



Since when is Toro Rosso a Top 5-Team? Read again, to understand the stats :wave:

#27 Jan.W

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 09:55

Can you deduce last two races in championship and also erase all Vettel's overtakes on Webber, and Torro Rossos? Than put statistics again to see the results.

Why ? Aren't Brasil and USA parts of the championship?

Plus, Vettel's overtakes on Webber and torro Rossos are undoubtly 10 times more legitimates than Alonso's on Massa and Sauber.


#28 Zava

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:35

Can you deduce last two races in championship and also erase all Vettel's overtakes on Webber, and Torro Rossos? Than put statistics again to see the results.

someone has to have a go at the spa race again, I think.

#29 WitnessX

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:59

Absolutely.

Even with his set up changes - that were intended to make the car more racier - RBR's top speed was barely a match for that of Mclaren and and Ferrari. Even with DRS and supposedly faster tyres, the RBR couldnt muster up a top speed that would allow him to comfortably pass Button in the DRS zone, inspite of Seb trying every trick in the book. Ultimately it took a ballsy no-holds-barred move around the outside of Button to get by.

On the contrary, if Abu Dhabi was proof for anything, it was proof for Seb's ability to overcome the deficiencies of his car that refused to make passing easy.

But the greatest testament to it was Spa, where his car simply refused to allow him to overtake in the DRS-zone, forcing him to go for high risk moves on his opponents at the Bus-Stop chicane.

If seb could talk to his car, here is a conversation he might have had with it that day...

(MA)

Wot?

http://www.motorspor...2/18/71ts.shtml

Top speeds Race:

4) Vettel: 321.0
6) Alonso: 319.6
....
16) Button 313.8

Ferrari perhaps, but not McLaren.


#30 prty

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:18

One question, you say this:

The overtaking figures -courtesy of Clip The Apex- for each race (across all data sets) do not include:

  • Position changes on the first lap of the race
  • Position changes due to drivers lapping backmarkers
  • Positions gained in the pits
  • Positions gained due to drivers yielding
  • Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.


But I just checked Brazil out of curiosity, and from cliptheapex database, this is what you get:

Posted Image

That is, 23 raw overtakes, which include "overtakes" on the Toro Rossos and Webber (edit: and also on Hamilton)

But then in your analysis, this are your stats for that race:

- 2012 overtakes races 16 to 20
Posted Image


And still 23 overtakes are counted. Any explanation? :stoned:

edit: On the superduper charge in Abu Dhabi Ricciardo is still counted too:

Posted Image

And on the other superduper charge in Spa too!

Posted Image

Also, the overtakes of the "top 5 teams" is a bit simplistic isn't it? For example Mercedes finished 5th, but it's not the same to overtake them in the first part of the season or in the later part. Same with Renault.

Edited by prty, 02 December 2012 - 11:57.


#31 paulesko

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:04

Why ? Aren't Brasil and USA parts of the championship?

Plus, Vettel's overtakes on Webber and torro Rossos are undoubtly 10 times more legitimates than Alonso's on Massa and Sauber.


:rotfl: this forum is hilarious sometimes.


#32 Jan.W

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:21

:rotfl: this forum is hilarious sometimes.

thanks to newbies fanboys like you  ;)

#33 olliek88

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:32

I've always said Vettel can overtake...




#34 HappyPhantom

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:35

Can you tell me who ever said Vettel couldn't overtake?

All I recall is Christian Horner after every race saying that 'Vettel has proved wrong all those who say he cannot overtake', but I've never actually found out who all these people are that Christian Horner says Vettel has proved wrong. I suspect (but look forward to being proved wrong) that it is just a further example of disingenuousness by the Christian 'king of disingenuous' Horner.


The Vettel can't overtake thing started after Spa 2010 I think, with Whitmarsh' Crash Kid comment...

#35 evol88

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:36

Impressive figures and interesting reading. Thanks for collating these!

#36 BenettonB192

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 12:42

These stats arn't as clear cut as people like to think when it's their own favourite driver leading. Of course circumstances and a cars overtaking ability play a role.
As much as it was true for Seb this year as much it was true for Lewis when he was leading the same stats. What makes people always look idiotic is when they so obviously have double standards or demand to change goal posts retrospectively to make the stats fit their own agenda.

The whole thing is somewhat analogous to a straw man argument really. Create a myth for the sole purpose of destroying it. The sad thing is people will fall for Horner's myth/destroy cycle, and in the end a couple of clueless dicks on a forum who make some baseless claim are ironically given credibility by somebody who should know better, like Horner, by re-enforcing the myth for the sole purpose of using it to "prove" his guy is better than people think - those people being a couple of internet forum clueless dicks.


Don't be silly. Vettel's "crashkid" image was as much present in the paddock and the press as it was on this forum. It was actualy Martin Whitmarsh was coined the phrase.

Edited by BenettonB192, 02 December 2012 - 12:48.


#37 mnmracer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 14:52

One question, you say this:

That's three questions in the end there :p

But I just checked Brazil out of curiosity, and from cliptheapex database, this is what you get:
That is, 23 raw overtakes, which include "overtakes" on the Toro Rossos and Webber (edit: and also on Hamilton)
But then in your analysis, this are your stats for that race:
And still 23 overtakes are counted. Any explanation? :stoned:

Well, first of, I'm not the one who made those numbers (hence I'm creditting who did).
Vergne let Vettel through; the move on Ricciardo for one was not 'moving over'.
Alonso also gets an overtake for Massa; one error here or there is irrelevant to the big picture ;-)

edit: On the superduper charge in Abu Dhabi Ricciardo is still counted too
And on the other superduper charge in Spa too!

It was Vergne who jumped out of the way in Abu Dhabi, not Ricciardo ;-)
Not sure what your beef is with Spa.

Also, the overtakes of the "top 5 teams" is a bit simplistic isn't it? For example Mercedes finished 5th, but it's not the same to overtake them in the first part of the season or in the later part. Same with Renault.

Well, if you want to go through overtake by overtake, be my guest ;-)
The point of this is obviously not a 100% indepth research, it's to show this year's trend, and as is usual with most things, it tends to even out in the end.

#38 choyothe

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 14:53

Ah Ok - so potentially Christian Horner was talking about people who post on internet forums rather than anybody with credibility or from the industry?

Well, I insist that Fernando Alonso murders cute puppies.

At the end of next season I certainly look forward to Christian Horner repeatedly making public how impressed he is that Alonso hasn't murdered any cute puppies when somebody on internet forum at some stage somewhere has insisted Alonso does murder cute puppies.*

The whole thing is somewhat analogous to a straw man argument really. Create a myth for the sole purpose of destroying it. The sad thing is people will fall for Horner's myth/destroy cycle, and in the end a couple of clueless dicks on a forum who make some baseless claim are ironically given credibility by somebody who should know better, like Horner, by re-enforcing the myth for the sole purpose of using it to "prove" his guy is better than people think - those people being a couple of internet forum clueless dicks.

*Assuming Alonso doesn't actually murder any cute puppies of course. My scheme falls down somewhat if it is revealed his murderous inclinations towards said photogenic juvenile canines.


Haven't been following much F1 in the last 2-3 years? The "Vettel-can't-overtake-only-wins-from-the-front"-propaganda has been one of the sports main stories since Whitmarsh called him the Crash Kid in Spa 2010.

#39 joshb

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:10

Haven't been following much F1 in the last 2-3 years? The "Vettel-can't-overtake-only-wins-from-the-front"-propaganda has been one of the sports main stories since Whitmarsh called him the Crash Kid in Spa 2010.


along with 'Vettel can only win in the best car' as a close 3rd to them 2.

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#40 Brandz07

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 16:30

I take Webber as the real winner of the most overtakes to be honest. If you take off the free passes that Seb was given by Schumacher & the Toro Rosso's in Brazil. Still impressive to see how he's improved though!

#41 techspeed

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:16

That is, 23 raw overtakes, which include "overtakes" on the Toro Rossos and Webber (edit: and also on Hamilton)

Interesting that out of Vettels total of 74, 23 of them were in one race. If the season had ended in Austin we would have had:
Total Overtakes
1. Mark Webber - 59
2. Felipe Massa - 57
3. Romain Grosjean - 54
4. Lewis Hamilton - 52
5. Sebastian Vettel - 51
which looks quite a bit different.

Edited by techspeed, 02 December 2012 - 17:16.


#42 Der Pate

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:23

Interesting that out of Vettels total of 74, 23 of them were in one race. If the season had ended in Austin we would have had:
Total Overtakes
1. Mark Webber - 59
2. Felipe Massa - 57
3. Romain Grosjean - 54
4. Lewis Hamilton - 52
5. Sebastian Vettel - 51
which looks quite a bit different.


Unfortunately the 2012-seasod had 20 races...

#43 mnmracer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 17:41

Interesting that out of Vettels total of 74, 23 of them were in one race. If the season had ended in Austin we would have had:
Total Overtakes
1. Mark Webber - 59
2. Felipe Massa - 57
3. Romain Grosjean - 54
4. Lewis Hamilton - 52
5. Sebastian Vettel - 51
which looks quite a bit different.


If we take out the two best races of all drivers (since you have no doubt got complaints about Abu Dhabi as well), we get the following:

Felipe Massa: 49
Mark Webber: 47
Michael Schumacher: 40
Romain Grosjean: 38
Kimi Räikkönen: 36
Sebastian Vettel: 34
Lewis Hamilton: 34
Nico Rosberg: 29
Fernando Alonso: 28
Jenson Button: 27

Remove the second drivers (which makes sense, as most have underpeformed to some extent):
Kimi Räikkönen: 36
Sebastian Vettel: 34
Lewis Hamilton: 34
Nico Rosberg: 29
Fernando Alonso: 28

Of course, this includes HRTs, Marussia's, Caterhams and cars with much older tires.

Edited by mnmracer, 02 December 2012 - 17:42.


#44 olliek88

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:02

I was, at one time, part of the Vettel isn't a good racer brigade but he dispelled that a while ago for me. Stats are stats and can be twisted to suite your agenda if you want but he's a good racer, occasionally clumsy but you good say that about most, just the same as most drivers can overtake given the opportunities.



The two on Rosberg where quality, clean but forceful.

Edited by olliek88, 02 December 2012 - 18:03.


#45 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:36

These overtaking statistics are quite skewed and therefore not that accurate IMHO. Here's why:

The overtaking figures -courtesy of Clip The Apex- for each race (across all data sets) do not include:
Position changes on the first lap of the race
Position changes due to drivers lapping backmarkers
Positions gained in the pits
Positions gained due to drivers yielding
Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.



I'm not saying I object to them being posted or anything, just saying they're not very valid or accurate. :up:

#46 prty

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:48

That's three questions in the end there :p


Well, first of, I'm not the one who made those numbers (hence I'm creditting who did).
Vergne let Vettel through; the move on Ricciardo for one was not 'moving over'.
Alonso also gets an overtake for Massa; one error here or there is irrelevant to the big picture ;-)


It was Vergne who jumped out of the way in Abu Dhabi, not Ricciardo ;-)
Not sure what your beef is with Spa.


Well, if you want to go through overtake by overtake, be my guest ;-)
The point of this is obviously not a 100% indepth research, it's to show this year's trend, and as is usual with most things, it tends to even out in the end.


Cool, good to clarify that those are not exhaustive stats.

If we take out the two best races of all drivers (since you have no doubt got complaints about Abu Dhabi as well), we get the following:

Felipe Massa: 49
Mark Webber: 47
Michael Schumacher: 40
Romain Grosjean: 38
Kimi Räikkönen: 36
Sebastian Vettel: 34
Lewis Hamilton: 34
Nico Rosberg: 29
Fernando Alonso: 28
Jenson Button: 27

Remove the second drivers (which makes sense, as most have underpeformed to some extent):
Kimi Räikkönen: 36
Sebastian Vettel: 34
Lewis Hamilton: 34
Nico Rosberg: 29
Fernando Alonso: 28

Of course, this includes HRTs, Marussia's, Caterhams and cars with much older tires.


And if you remove third and fourth drivers (this feature is only available if you drive a Red Bull)

Kimi Räikkönen: 36
Lewis Hamilton: 34
Nico Rosberg: 29
Sebastian Vettel: 28
Fernando Alonso: 28


#47 apoka

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 18:55

I take Webber as the real winner of the most overtakes to be honest. If you take off the free passes that Seb was given by Schumacher & the Toro Rosso's in Brazil. Still impressive to see how he's improved though!

It is unlikely that he would have been stuck behind the TRs or Schumacher (even without the passes being "free") - the lap time difference in live timing was too high for this.

I rate the Vettel overtake on Button, his overtakes in Spa and some of the (rare but good) moves in 2011 very highly - doing a large quantity of moves shows that he had to do quite some wheel-to-wheel racing and is capable of going through the field. The quality of passes is, of course, a different matter and pretty subjective. Kimi, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso all showed pretty decent skills in that area this year.



#48 Boxerevo

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:04

All hail the finger.

#49 mnmracer

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:14

These overtaking statistics are quite skewed and therefore not that accurate IMHO. Here's why:

The overtaking figures -courtesy of Clip The Apex- for each race (across all data sets) do not include:
Position changes on the first lap of the race
Position changes due to drivers lapping backmarkers
Positions gained in the pits
Positions gained due to drivers yielding
Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.



I'm not saying I object to them being posted or anything, just saying they're not very valid or accurate. :up:

Apart from the first -which no one (be it CTA, F1F, Pirelli) considers- I'm sure if it turned out that Vettel overtook 30 mechanically stricken cars (say flat-tires), you would be asking for those stats to be removed ;-)

#50 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 19:58

Apart from the first -which no one (be it CTA, F1F, Pirelli) considers- I'm sure if it turned out that Vettel overtook 30 mechanically stricken cars (say flat-tires), you would be asking for those stats to be removed ;-)


I'm only saying that first lap overtakes are important and should be included, in every source that produces these type of statistics mate. And there's many other things it doesn't take into account. I'm not busting your balls mate, just saying it doesn't tell the whole story. That's all.