79 replies to this topic

[Sakae]

Yes, lovely friends, Ron and Max, that's is.

[mattferg]

Ecclestone might have an argument if the grid consisted of 10 independent teams. Unfortunately STR is a RED Bull lackey squad; populated by drivers who need to drive far off track so as not to impede Vettel but more than happy to rear end Glock under safety car conditions (WTF? that Brainless manouevre cost Marussia $14 million). I can remember when dealing with backmarkers was integral to a driver's skill. The sooner Red Bull are forced to relinquish control of STR the better!

So we should allow all teams to enter and keep as many teams as possible on the grid... But pull financial backing from a team that could've gone bust if it wasn't for RB? Hypocrites. I don't think anyone cared in 2006 before Vettel was winning.

[mattferg]

Ecclestone might have an argument if the grid consisted of 10 independent teams. Unfortunately STR is a RED Bull lackey squad; populated by drivers who need to drive far off track so as not to impede Vettel but more than happy to rear end Glock under safety car conditions (WTF? that Brainless manouevre cost Marussia $14 million). I can remember when dealing with backmarkers was integral to a driver's skill. The sooner Red Bull are forced to relinquish control of STR the better!

So we should allow all teams to enter and keep as many teams as possible on the grid... But pull financial backing from a team that could've gone bust if it wasn't for RB? Hypocrites. I don't think anyone cared in 2006 before Vettel was winning.

[Sakae]

So we should allow all teams to enter and keep as many teams as possible on the grid... But pull financial backing from a team that could've gone bust if it wasn't for RB? Hypocrites. I don't think anyone cared in 2006 before Vettel was winning.

One owner with two synchronized or competing teams (I am not sure which is which), should have never been accepted in the first place reagrdless of anything else.

[DankBank]

Hang on...didn't we use the expanding field as the big reason to change the points system to the current format? Is that supposed to change back once we kill off all the teams we expanded for or are we scoring half the field now? I don't see the plan here, Bernie.

[Red17]

The biggest irony is that when the 11th team folds next year everyone will go (once again) on how Bernie knew it in advance. Who said USF1 would go bust? Bernie, with his usual «ohhh, I think someone will not show up». This can only mean that a team is hanging in the ropes and Bernie is usually well informed in these things.

In the recent years the only time I saw Bernie without answers was during the «Breakup Crisis», but even then we knew he would follow the teams and dump Max.

So nothing new here, just Bernie doing his crystal ball number.

[Eff One 2002]

I want F1 to be open to any team who wants to have a go.

Yup, ideally this is how it should be. F1 as a whole needs to take its head out of its own arse and quit the elitist snobbery. If a team can put together a budget and resources to enter F1, let them have a go.

Now that there's only going to be 11 teams on the grid next year, applications should at least be thrown open for two new teams to make up a proper, full grid of 26 cars. Ideally, more teams should be allowed in to have even more starters or keep the field at 26 with some entrants not qualifying. This would make things more interesting as I've said before. But no, this probably won't ever happen due to the aforementioned head-up-arse situation.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 15 December 2012 - 03:19.

[Petroltorque]

So we should allow all teams to enter and keep as many teams as possible on the grid... But pull financial backing from a team that could've gone bust if it wasn't for RB? Hypocrites. I don't think anyone cared in 2006 before Vettel was winning.

This situation would not arise if STR was operating as an independent team even if funded by Red Bull. Too many times we see STR cars pulling aside when racing their sister team for position. That is pure shite!

[SpaMaster]

This situation would not arise if STR was operating as an independent team even if funded by Red Bull. Too many times we see STR cars pulling aside when racing their sister team for position. That is pure shite!

How does that work fool-proof? Anytime you get a significant favour from another team, you are less likely to fight that team fiercely. Happened with Ferrari and Sauber for a long time. Ferrari provides engines on a special deal and have used Sauber as a platform to test their young drivers. How is that much different? This STR-Red Bull issue is blown out of propotion. One is at the bottom end of the field and the other is at the top end of the field. On the rare occasions they come across each other on track, one car has no real chance to defend the other car. This is a non-issue. If it were between teams of caliber Red Bull and Lotus, we have an issue. Otherwise, even drivers do this now and then. Not such a big issue at all.

[Petroltorque]

How does that work fool-proof? Anytime you get a significant favour from another team, you are less likely to fight that team fiercely. Happened with Ferrari and Sauber for a long time. Ferrari provides engines on a special deal and have used Sauber as a platform to test their young drivers. How is that much different? This STR-Red Bull issue is blown out of propotion. One is at the bottom end of the field and the other is at the top end of the field. On the rare occasions they come across each other on track, one car has no real chance to defend the other car. This is a non-issue. If it were between teams of caliber Red Bull and Lotus, we have an issue. Otherwise, even drivers do this now and then. Not such a big issue at all.

To address your arguments in point order;
Sauber have entered a commercial deal with Ferrari ie, paying for their powertrain. I am not privy to the details but I think the days of Maranello influencing Sauber's on track operations ceased when Sauber was bought out by BMW. Sauber are now in the unenviable position of racing for their budget. Perez's challenge for the lead in Malaysia is a case in point. In any event Sauber's decisions seem to be more influenced by Slim's money than Maranello.
In regards to STR;how may rare occasions does one need to affect a closely fought championship. Of course a fastrer car will EVENTUALLY get by. But is there a need for a slower car to be so acquiescent?

[SpaMaster]

Sauber-Ferrari partnership may not be so much like that now, but it has been so in the past. It was not just totally segregated power train commercial deal. Sauber has basically been the test-bed for many Ferrari young drivers. Vettel has basically come from the back of the field just twice this season. Ultimately the Torro Rossos would not have made any reasonable impact. They didn't with other title contenders. It's not ideal and I am not supporting. But it is not such a big deal. F1 has never been a steadfast FIA rule controlled sport. It has always been controlled by the commercial interests of the sport. That's why big team have such a big say in lot of those things. That's why the presence of a team like Torro Rosso (commerical reasons) outweighs the lack of sporting ethics its presents. That way lot of the big team bullying is no different and they are not exactly sporting.

[Petroltorque]

That is why the present commercial agreement is anti- competitive. Red Bull is capable of influencing the outcome by its influence on STR. This has repercussions on the financial payouts to all the teams. It's a problem that the FIA can no longer dismiss because at some stage it is going to affect a chamionship. In most aspects of business an overseeing organisation limits the influence of individual owners.

[SpaMaster]

But that is not the case with F1 and FIA. Like I said this is not the only problem with F1. I would say Ferrari and McLaren equally influence the governing of sport in many other ways (in that sense, I think they do it much more). Big teams control the sport in many ways.

[LuckyStrike1]

Well, HRT, Marussia and Caterham doesn't really add anything do they?

Teams like that has always come and left F1 without leaving much other marks than embarassements.

Losing Marussia and Caterham would not in any way be negative for F1.

[SpaMaster]

In the elitist F1 that is. Most greasy racers think more the competitors, merrier.

[ViMaMo]

Well, HRT, Marussia and Caterham doesn't really add anything do they?

Teams like that has always come and left F1 without leaving much other marks than embarassements.

Losing Marussia and Caterham would not in any way be negative for F1.

As well as Honda, Jaguar, Toyota and possibly Mercedes.

Wasnt there a time when the back marker teams were the stepping stones for upcoming F1 drivers? Now its pay urself into a mid field team.

Edited by ViMaMo, 15 December 2012 - 11:31.

[Anderis]

Losing Marussia and Caterham would not in any way be negative for F1.

On condition that they would be replaced by teams which are going to be more competitive which is not going to happen.

By the same way I can say Ferrari adds nothing. I can imagine them being replaced by someone other and show not being affected.

[Tsarwash]

Is this not Bernie doing what he does best ? Talking deliberate **** in order to make headlines and keep F1 in the news for a few extra weeks. He does this all the time. Expect a more ridiculous quote from him early in the new year. What will he come up with ? He's done the Ferrari appeasement quote after the little spat with LdM so it's time to please Red Bull this time. How about soft drinks manufacturers automatically get double the amount of prize money ? That'll also please Coca Cola.

[F1ultimate]

Bernie and Luca dM's dream grid:

[Iscurrega]

Bernie and Luca dM's dream grid:

[LuckyStrike1]

On condition that they would be replaced by teams which are going to be more competitive which is not going to happen.

By the same way I can say Ferrari adds nothing. I can imagine them being replaced by someone other and show not being affected.

More competitive teams = good

Uncompetitive low-financed "shitty" teams = adds nothing.

HRT, Marussia and Caterham have never shown any indication or even being remotely close to fight for points. Which are awarded to almost half the field these days.

[swiniodzik]

Wow, you do realize everything starts somewhere, right? I think some of you really under-estimate the challenge the new teams have been facing since they entered the scene. As for what they add. They might not have made much of an impact in terms of results but if anything, they represent everything good and honest about a sport which is transforming into a cynical and rotten business more and more. Their efforts to compete in the quest to be the fastest on the smell of an oily rag and aganist the odds make F1 more multi-dimensional as a sport, so their presence adds something good unless they're indeed into embarrassment territory like Andrea Moda was, which wasn't the case really even with HRT.

[britishtrident]

Bernie has it a 100% right for a wide variety of reasons, in any case the teams at the back of the grid are so far off the ace they add nothing to the race experience except to increase the chance a race incident.

[Petroltorque]

Bernie has it a 100% right for a wide variety of reasons, in any case the teams at the back of the grid are so far off the ace they add nothing to the race experience except to increase the chance a race incident.

Having followed F1 since the early 80s I can remember when the performance gap between the front to back was as much as 10%. This year that gap was nearer 4%. F1 being an engineering led discipline there's no such thing as instant success. With the benefit of hindsight HRT should never have been granted a licence but Marussia and Caterham are gradually closing the gap. The irony is that everyone moaning on about more competitive teams should consider which teams are developping driving talent, certainly not Maranello. They seem more intent on running only established drivers.

[Mekola]

I think the opposite. Too few cars for too many drivers. 26 cars on the grid would be ideal.

[Anderis]

More competitive teams = good

Uncompetitive low-financed "shitty" teams = adds nothing.

HRT, Marussia and Caterham have never shown any indication or even being remotely close to fight for points. Which are awarded to almost half the field these days.

Of course, having 12 or 13 competitive teams is better than having 9 competitive teams and 3 or 4 "low-financed shitty" teams.

But I would rather have 9 competitive teams and 3 or 4 "low-financed shitty" teams than 9 competitive teams and nothing more.

Also it is not true that Caterham is low-financed and you can't blame HRT and Marussia for being low-financed after considering how shitty contract terms with FOM are for teams outside Top10 in WCC.

There were also many teams in the past that were unable of scoring points for a while before reaching a reasonable level of competitiveness. Force India is probably the most recent example.

The fact that points are awarded to almost half of the field is hardly enough help. HRT and Marussia were much closer to the front than many of point-scorers from seventies or eighties. The fact of superior reliability among today's frontrunners and midfield is much more significant than increasing the amount of point-scoring positions.

[loki]

Also it is not true that Caterham is low-financed and you can't blame HRT and Marussia for being low-financed after considering how shitty contract terms with FOM are for teams outside Top10 in WCC.

I'd say that HRT and Marussia are directly responsible for their respective financial well being. They shouldn't get paid for just turning laps. To at least have a chance as a startup the tream needs access to capital while they build performance. Unless the team is purchased from an established entity (Minardi, Jaguar, Honda, etc) they will need four or five years of funding. Money from points shouldn't be the only funding on which the teams rely. HRT didn't really have a shot from the beginning. Manor and Wirth did better with Virgin/Marussia but it's still not enough. Sahara/Force India, while having a somewhat shaky past with regards to paying some bills, seems to be able to find money from either one of the principal's fortunes or from the companies of which they respectively own. It seems Malya has access to funds, it appears though that at times getting him to part with them is a different story. My point is that Malya being able to find funds and starting with Spyker, which was Jordan, helped them over the learning curve. I think it's likely, and unfortunate, that the grid will lose Marussia, Caterham or perhaps both even if one does hang on with the 10th place money. There may come a point where the cachet of owning an F1 team will wane with Fernandez and if it's still an underperforming money pit, they may pull the plug.

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but going down to 22 cars next season will mean qualifying will more than likely move to 6 cars dropping out of Q1 (so if Caterham and Marussia are their usual back of the grid selves we'll see 2 established cars fighting to get through rather than just the 1, joining the usual backmarkers) and 6 out of Q2.

[Sakae]

Bernie and Luca dM's dream grid:

If it could be assured through built-in bullet proof safe-guards in regulations that drivers on the same team have equal opportunity in terms of resources, and sporting objectives, then I would rather see five top teams fielding more than two strong cars each, than watching hopless disparities between RB and someone like Marussia, which is what we have now, and what is more of a bad joke, but hardly racing at F1 level.

Edited by Sakae, 17 December 2012 - 09:46.

[PayasYouRace]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but going down to 22 cars next season will mean qualifying will more than likely move to 6 cars dropping out of Q1 (so if Caterham and Marussia are their usual back of the grid selves we'll see 2 established cars fighting to get through rather than just the 1, joining the usual backmarkers) and 6 out of Q2.

Very true. That's how it was last time there were 22 cars on the grid.