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Farina or Fangio?


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#1 Jimisgod

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:34

Posted Image

Is this image G. Farina in 1950, or J. M. Fangio in 1951? I'm getting about equal numbers of captions saying each when I look it up on the net. Given my total lack of knowledge of racing from the 50s, I'm tossing it to the experts here to decide.

I imagine it's impossible, but knowing the photographer would be nice.

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#2 GD66

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:13

Farina for me. Hunched over the wheel, and long skinny arms, not something of which you could accuse The Great Fangio.

Edited by GD66, 17 December 2012 - 03:14.


#3 Repco22

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:38

Farina for me. Hunched over the wheel, and long skinny arms, not something of which you could accuse The Great Fangio.

When was Farina "hunched over the wheel"? He was famous for keeping as far away from it as he could.

#4 RogerFrench

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 03:51

When was Farina "hunched over the wheel"? He was famous for keeping as far away from it as he could.


Absolutely - he inspired SCM to adopt a similar stance.

#5 GD66

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:46

I realise that, but he's not laying back straight-armed in the pic, is he ?
Still, don't let that deter you from savaging someone who contradicts your long-held perception, even with photographic evidence.
I still think it's Farina, even if he's not laying back gracefully.

Edited by GD66, 17 December 2012 - 04:52.


#6 Repco22

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 04:58

I realise that, but he's not laying back straight-armed in the pic, is he ?
Still, don't let that deter you from savaging someone who contradicts your long-held perception, even with photographic evidence.
I still think it's Farina, even if he's not laying back gracefully.

Ouch! Sorry if you felt 'savaged'! I didn't say it's not Farina. Just questioned the 'hunched over' look as being proof it is him.
I agree that his arms look thinner than JMF's.

#7 GD66

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:06

No probs, Rodders.  ;) I have a habit of being attacked on other fora for going against the flow, so was probably being a bit of a sook there.

#8 JB Miltonian

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:54

I would guess that this is Fangio at Reims in 1951, driving Fagioli's car.

There is a picture in Klemantaski's "Drivers in Action" that is captioned as Fangio "braking hard to enter Gueux Village on the Reims circuit", and both the driver and the car appear to be identical to those in your picture.

Edited by JB Miltonian, 17 December 2012 - 06:36.


#9 Catalina Park

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:42

I think it is Reims. But I think it is the Thillois hairpin before it was modified.

Edit, added photo

Posted Image

Edited by Catalina Park, 17 December 2012 - 06:46.


#10 Repco22

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:56

I think it is Reims. But I think it is the Thillois hairpin before it was modified.

There is no doubt about that building which was on the Thillois Hairpin.

#11 Barry Boor

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:07

The only sharp corner in Gueux village had buildings very close on both sides.

Definitely Thillois.

#12 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:08

As Rod says, it has to be Reims. If you enter 'French GP 1951' into Google Images several other photos come up showing the same house in the background, eg:

http://www.shorey.ne.....omeo 159).jpg

#13 Wirra

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:14

Formula-1 Grand Prix France (D'Europe) 1951



#14 SWB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:40

The date of the photo appears to be 1950 as it is an Alfa Romeo 158, not the 159 from 1951. Outwardly the 158 had a sharper end to the tail and an extra set of louvres low on the body more or less where the drivers feet would be, and a single exhaust pipe as opposed to the 159's twin pipes. And as Fangio's winning car was #8 in France it must be the French GP. Armed with this you will be amazed at how many photographs are mis captioned for Alfa Romeo's of 1950 and 1951. Klemantaski's 'Drivers in Action' does have a photo of the same car and driver, but the caption says it is a 159 in 1951 at Reims, it isn't.

Steve

Edited by SWB, 17 December 2012 - 09:19.


#15 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:00

Posted Image

Is this image G. Farina in 1950, or J. M. Fangio in 1951? I'm getting about equal numbers of captions saying each when I look it up on the net. Given my total lack of knowledge of racing from the 50s, I'm tossing it to the experts here to decide.

I imagine it's impossible, but knowing the photographer would be nice.

ITS FANGIO!.

#16 Simon Arron

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:22

The race number should be a clue. There was no car #8 on the grid for the 1950 French GP, while Luigi Fagioli's Alfa 159 was entered as #8 at Reims in '51 (and subsequently handed to Fangio). Farina carried #2 in both races.

The question, perhaps, should be Fagioli or Fangio, although I agree with the majority that it looks like the latter.

#17 SWB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:31

The race number should be a clue. There was no car #8 on the grid for the 1950 French GP, while Luigi Fagioli's Alfa 159 was entered as #8 at Reims in '51 (and subsequently handed to Fangio). Farina carried #2 in both races.

The question, perhaps, should be Fagioli or Fangio, although I agree with the majority that it looks like the latter.


Alfa did not use the #8 at all in 1951. And they were not running the old car 158 at Reims in 1951. The record books show #8 as having won in 1950.

Steve

Edited by SWB, 17 December 2012 - 09:34.


#18 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:33

ITS FANGIO!.

Exactly my reaction, Eric. Sometimes you just know - even if you've never seen a picture before! El Chueco had a distinctive way of holding the wheel: neither "ten-to-two" nor "quarter-to- three", but somewhere in between.

I would guess that this is Fangio at Reims in 1951, driving Fagioli's car.

There is a picture in Klemantaski's "Drivers in Action" that is captioned as Fangio "braking hard to enter Gueux Village on the Reims circuit", and both the driver and the car appear to be identical to those in your picture.

I'd go with that too.

And the identification of Thillois.

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:35

Alfa did not use the #8 at all in 1951. And they were not running the old car 158 at Reims in 1951. All the record books show #8 as having won in 1950.

Steve

Sorry, but no. Not sure what record books you've been reading, but Farina's 1950 winning car was numbered 6. 8 was assigned to Villoresi's Ferrari (DNA).

http://www.silhouet....1/1950/50f.html

http://www.silhouet....1/1951/51f.html

Edited by Vitesse2, 17 December 2012 - 09:37.


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#20 Simon Arron

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:40

Farina's 1950 winning car was numbered 6.

Fangio's winning car!

#21 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 09:58

Sorry, but no. Not sure what record books you've been reading, but Farina's 1950 winning car was numbered 6. 8 was assigned to Villoresi's Ferrari (DNA).

http://www.silhouet....1/1950/50f.html

http://www.silhouet....1/1951/51f.html

Although that site shows the 1951 winning car as number 4, which it wasn't.

#22 Simon Arron

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:02

Although that site shows the 1951 winning car as number 4, which it wasn't.

Fangio took the start in #4, which might have been a trigger for confusion.

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:05

Alfa did not use the #8 at all in 1951. And they were not running the old car 158 at Reims in 1951. The record books show #8 as having won in 1950.

Steve

At Rheims in 1951, three of the four Alfas had extra fuel tanks. Fagioli's didn't which accounts for the different appearance. It also accounts for the extra pit stop made by Fangio after he had taken over the car, which kept the result in some doubt.

Edited by Roger Clark, 17 December 2012 - 10:06.


#24 D-Type

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:20

To sort out the numbers, here's all the all the Alfa Romeo numbers (from Hayhoe & Holland and Steve Small)

1950
2 Farina
4 Fagioli
6 Fangio
8 Villoresi (Ferrari!) - non-starter

1951
2 Farina
4 Fangio (handed over to Fagioli)
6 Sanesi
8 Fagioli (handed over to Fangio)

So if it is Reims, and the consensus says it is, then it must be 1951 and either Fangio or Fagioli.

The car has a single exhaust, which Steve says identifies it as a 158 rather than a 159. Could it be that Fagioli, being the 'junior' driver drove a 158? But anything I have says it was a 159.

Coincidentally, this same photo is used by Steve Small and captioned as Fangio at Reims in Fagioli's car.

#25 SWB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:34

At Rheims in 1951, three of the four Alfas had extra fuel tanks. Fagioli's didn't which accounts for the different appearance. It also accounts for the extra pit stop made by Fangio after he had taken over the car, which kept the result in some doubt.


I'm sorry, I am under the cosh of misidentifying a misidentified car. But I still think it is a 158. The 159 had a larger tank anyway, they were not added for Reims, and hence the tail shape is different. This has all the features of the 158 so for me Fangio must have won on Fagioli's 158. As four 159's had been built by then, perhaps an accident ruled one out of racing?

Steve

Edited by SWB, 17 December 2012 - 10:34.


#26 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 10:34

The car has a single exhaust, which Steve says identifies it as a 158 rather than a 159. Could it be that Fagioli, being the 'junior' driver drove a 158?

I was wondering the same thing. Here's the clearest photo I can find of the 1951 start:

http://www.airsceneu...ms/reims002.jpg

The exhaust on #8 does look slightly different to the other Alfas, suggesting to me that it is the older 158, but it's really not very clear.

#27 Spaceframe

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:13

Posted Image

Is this image G. Farina in 1950, or J. M. Fangio in 1951? I'm getting about equal numbers of captions saying each when I look it up on the net. Given my total lack of knowledge of racing from the 50s, I'm tossing it to the experts here to decide.

I imagine it's impossible, but knowing the photographer would be nice.

We have several factors to consider - the circuit, the car and the driver:

The circuit is the simplest part - it must be the Thillois hairpin at Reims, as the building on the left and the cobbled road completely matches that place.

The car must be an Alfa Romeo 158. Whereas the side panels of the 159 were vertical from the bottom up to the exhaust pipes, the sie panels on the 158 was more trapezoid, that is wider at the bottom. This is coupled with a slightly higher position of the exhausts as they pass the cockpit: On a 158 the driver's elbow is above the exaust, on the 159 the elbow is hidden behind the exhaust

Now the hard part, the driver: Since the car is a 158 we can rule out 1951. And in 1950 the number 8 car was a Ferrari. Which leaves us with 1948 and a choice between J-P Wimille, Consalvo Sanesi or Alberto Ascari who finished one-two-three in the French GP of that year.

#28 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:30

I think that the division between a 158 and a 159 is much less clear than some are suggesting. In the winter of 1950/51, the cars were modified, or new cars built, with more powerful engines and modified brakes. The press often refers to these cars as 159s but Doug Nye says, in his History of the Grand Prix car, that the factory did not use this designation until later in the year.

During 1951, the cars were further modified with more fuel tanks and, in some cases, de Dion rear suspension. Contemporary reports say that at Spa the cars of Fangio and Farina had a fuel tank in the engine capartment under the exhaust pipes ( nothing like keeping the fuel cool!). Sanesi's car did not have this tank. Fagioli's car at Rheims had the same layout as Sanesi's at Spa. It did, however, have the modified engine and brakes.

#29 nicanary

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:51

I was just checking DSJ's comments in his Racing Car Review of 1952, since the wee fellow was apt to spend a considerable amount of time in the paddock having a gander at the technical specs of the competing cars. It confuses the matter, unfortunately. According to his year-end analysis, there were three normal 159s entered in 1951, plus the "de Dion" car driven by Consalvo Sanesi. And to make matters worse he claims the fourth driver (alongside Fangio and Farina) was Felice Bonetto (!??)

Which only goes to prove something or other....

(The report states that Fangio,Farina and Sanesi had the full complement of long-range tanks, whilst "Bonetto" dispensed with the engine-compartment tank. Was this No.8 a "bitsa", with a combination of features from the 1950 and 1951 cars?)

#30 Spaceframe

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:06

I think that the division between a 158 and a 159 is much less clear than some are suggesting. In the winter of 1950/51, the cars were modified, or new cars built, with more powerful engines and modified brakes. The press often refers to these cars as 159s but Doug Nye says, in his History of the Grand Prix car, that the factory did not use this designation until later in the year.

During 1951, the cars were further modified with more fuel tanks and, in some cases, de Dion rear suspension. Contemporary reports say that at Spa the cars of Fangio and Farina had a fuel tank in the engine capartment under the exhaust pipes ( nothing like keeping the fuel cool!). Sanesi's car did not have this tank. Fagioli's car at Rheims had the same layout as Sanesi's at Spa. It did, however, have the modified engine and brakes.

Thanks - it appears "159" is a quite inaccurate denomination!

Besides, I've found pictures of Wimille in car #30 and Ascari in #32 at Reims back in 1948, so only he 1951 French GP remains an option when starting numbers ae taken into consideration. But how can we decide whether this is Fagioli or Fangio at the wheel?

#31 Stephen W

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:08

The race number should be a clue. There was no car #8 on the grid for the 1950 French GP, while Luigi Fagioli's Alfa 159 was entered as #8 at Reims in '51 (and subsequently handed to Fangio). Farina carried #2 in both races.

The question, perhaps, should be Fagioli or Fangio, although I agree with the majority that it looks like the latter.


Definately Fangio in Fagioli's car; Fagioli finished 11th a lap down.


#32 rudi

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:18

Definately Fangio in Fagioli's car; Fagioli finished 11th a lap down.


Fagioli before giving his car to Fangio, Reims 1951.
Posted Image

#33 RWB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:19

Page 179 of David Venables' "First Among Champios" shows the start of the 1950 French GP. Alfa Romeos 4, 2 and 6 occupy the front row. They have race numbers on the nose and tail but none on the scuttle as in the photo under question. Page 187 of the same book has a rear view of cars 2, 8 and 4 being prepared for the 1951 race. Car 8 has a distinctly pointed tail compared with the other two cars and louvres below the exhaust the angle of which hint at the trapezoid shape mentioned before. Page 189 has a photo of Fangio in car 8 which "he tool over from Fagioli". Fangio wears a white hat whereas the driver in the original photo is perhaps wearing a hat darker than his overalls. Fagioli? Surely it is the French GP Reims 1951, either Fangio or Fagioli.

#34 john winfield

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:21

Definately Fangio in Fagioli's car; Fagioli finished 11th a lap down.


I think you're right. As well as driving styles, I think, from what I can make out in these photos, Fagioli is wearing a long sleeved top and his soft 'helmet' is whiter than Fangio's.

http://www.google.co...,r:10,s:0,i:115

http://www.google.co...29,r:1,s:0,i:88

Edit. Sorry, slow posting here, confirming some of what has just been written above.

Edited by john winfield, 17 December 2012 - 12:23.


#35 Repco22

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:41

I think you're right. As well as driving styles, I think, from what I can make out in these photos, Fagioli is wearing a long sleeved top and his soft 'helmet' is whiter than Fangio's.

http://www.google.co...,r:10,s:0,i:115

http://www.google.co...29,r:1,s:0,i:88

Edit. Sorry, slow posting here, confirming some of what has just been written above.

Fangio's 'helmet' is probably light blue. In the first pic it looks as though fuel was slopped over the tail, perhaps during the changeover.

#36 RWB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 13:24

Page 179 of David Venables' "First Among Champios" shows the start of the 1950 French GP. Alfa Romeos 4, 2 and 6 occupy the front row. They have race numbers on the nose and tail but none on the scuttle as in the photo under question. Page 187 of the same book has a rear view of cars 2, 8 and 4 being prepared for the 1951 race. Car 8 has a distinctly pointed tail compared with the other two cars and louvres below the exhaust the angle of which hint at the trapezoid shape mentioned before. Page 189 has a photo of Fangio in car 8 which "he tool over from Fagioli". Fangio wears a white hat whereas the driver in the original photo is perhaps wearing a hat darker than his overalls. Fagioli? Surely it is the French GP Reims 1951, either Fangio or Fagioli.



"rudi's" picture shows a driver with long-sleeved overalls whereas the driver in the original photo has short sleeves. So perhaps it must be Fangio despite the colour of the hat. Incidentally, the car looks identical to the car that Farina drove at Goodwood in September. 158 or 159?

#37 john winfield

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 13:31

Fangio's 'helmet' is probably light blue. In the first pic it looks as though fuel was slopped over the tail, perhaps during the changeover.


You're right about the helmet Repco. This colour film shows the 1951 French (first four minutes) and British GPs; there are various shots of Fangio at Reims, Starting in #4, having taken over Fagioli's #8, recovering from a spin out at La Garenne etc. (Love the signalling pit).


Edited by john winfield, 17 December 2012 - 13:32.


#38 arttidesco

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 13:46

Formula-1 Grand Prix France (D'Europe) 1951


Commentary by Castrol's very own George Williams who showed this among other films at a Morgan Owners Club meeting in Nunney Village hall recently :up:

I'm not an expert and this was all well before I was even thought of BUT here is my evidence in support of Fagioli being the driver of the #8 we are trying to identify :-

Fangio driving the #4 159 in the 1951 French GP, note the WHITE head gear.

Fangio the #8 158 in the 1951 French Grand Prix, note the WHITE head gear, louvered non vertical sides below the exhaust etc.

Since the driver in the photo we are trying to identify does not appear to be wearing WHITE head gear, it seems fair and reasonable to say that it is probably NOT Fangio :smoking:

Edited by arttidesco, 17 December 2012 - 13:47.


#39 john winfield

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:01

Commentary by Castrol's very own George Williams who showed this among other films at a Morgan Owners Club meeting in Nunney Village hall recently :up:

I'm not an expert and this was all well before I was even thought of BUT here is my evidence in support of Fagioli being the driver of the #8 we are trying to identify :-

Fangio driving the #4 159 in the 1951 French GP, note the WHITE head gear.

Fangio the #8 158 in the 1951 French Grand Prix, note the WHITE head gear, louvered non vertical sides below the exhaust etc.

Since the driver in the photo we are trying to identify does not appear to be wearing WHITE head gear, it seems fair and reasonable to say that it is probably NOT Fangio :smoking:


Firstly, sorry Wirra, I didn't notice that you had already posted the film clips.
Arti, I see the same pictures as you and come to exactly the opposite conclusions! I agree that the driver in the original photo is probably not wearing a white helmet (possibly blue as Repco suggests). Your first linked photo shows, I think, Fagioli after he has taken over Fangio's #4, and the second one Fagioli again, earlier in the race, in his original #8. I don't think either shows Fangio. But what do I know?!

Edited by john winfield, 17 December 2012 - 14:14.


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#40 Tim Murray

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:10

I agree with John - it's Fagioli in both those photos. In the film clip Fangio's headgear is light blue, not white, and as mentioned earlier Fangio was in short sleeves.

The shot of car #8 starting at 3.10 in that clip clearly shows that it had the lower single exhaust of the 158.

Edited by Tim Murray, 17 December 2012 - 14:12.


#41 arttidesco

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:21

Nothing like being certain of something until proven otherwise, here is a pic of Fangio wearing head gear darker than his shirt so maybe Fangio is the driver we are trying to identify after all. Might explain the mess on the back of the fuel tank if he took over the #8 after "the" (single ?) pitstop. :blush:

Good job I like the taste of egg :lol:

#42 ChrisJson

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:37

But what do I know?!



I´m with you John!

It´s Fangio wearing a light blue helmet and a white short-sleeved shirt
in car #4 at the start and in car #8 close-up after avoiding Rosier #40.


Christer

Edited by ChrisJson, 17 December 2012 - 14:38.


#43 Eric Dunsdon

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 14:52

All this speculation about race numbers, size of drivers arms, 159 designs etc are all very interesting, but the original question was 'Is the driver in the phorograph Fangio or Farina?. The FACT, quite simply, is that it is the race winner Fangio who took over Luigi Fagioli's car. I may not be able to tell a Red Bull from a Williams these days, but I still know Fangio and Farina when I see them. Having seen both of those greats in action helps a little!. Farina, by the way, tended to wear a hard crash helmet in 1951 as opposed to the linen wind helmet favored by Juan Manuel, Fagioli and Sanesi.

#44 arttidesco

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 15:29

I still know Fangio and Farina when I see them. Having seen both of those greats in action helps a little!.


:up:

#45 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 15:57

Well, it seems to be solved by now... a tricky picture, indeed! My first (gut) reaction was: certainly not Farina, and not a 1951 Alfa! The "158/159 question", as Roger has pointed out, is apparently far from properly answered. Hm. :well:

#46 JB Miltonian

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 16:14

Post #8: I wasn't suggesting that the original photo was taken at Gueux corner at Reims. I was quoting the photo caption in Klemantaski's book, which suggested that THAT car and THAT driver were Fangio in the Alfa at Reims. Sorry I can't scan a Klemantaski photo for use here.

#47 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 16:21

. Might explain the mess on the back of the fuel tank if he took over the #8 after "the" (single ?) pitstop. :blush:

First of three.

For what it's worth, there were five Alfas at Berne, all labelled 159 on the bulkhead (Motor Sport) so whatever you think were the differences between a 158 and a 159, it's unlikely that there were any of the former at Rheims.

#48 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 16:22

You're right about the helmet Repco. This colour film shows the 1951 French (first four minutes) and British GPs; there are various shots of Fangio at Reims, Starting in #4, having taken over Fagioli's #8, recovering from a spin out at La Garenne etc. (Love the signalling pit).


Splendid! :)

#49 arttidesco

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 16:27

First of three.

For what it's worth, there were five Alfas at Berne, all labelled 159 on the bulkhead (Motor Sport) so whatever you think were the differences between a 158 and a 159, it's unlikely that there were any of the former at Rheims.


Unless of course ALFA Romeo needed the 159 tags to move their vehicles across the continent without any undue attention from customs authorities ?

#50 Roger Clark

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 18:28

I think you're right. As well as driving styles, I think, from what I can make out in these photos, Fagioli is wearing a long sleeved top and his soft 'helmet' is whiter than Fangio's.

http://www.google.co...,r:10,s:0,i:115

http://www.google.co...29,r:1,s:0,i:88

Edit. Sorry, slow posting here, confirming some of what has just been written above.

Is it possible that the first of these pictures, also posted by rudi, was taken in practice and shows Guidotti trying the car?