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... a little help from our friends


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#1 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 20 March 2001 - 22:58

I would like to ask for the help of our friends here at TNF in identifying a photo or two.

First the background - most posters at this forum are familiar with the International Motor Racing Research Center at Watkins Glen. For those who aren't - here is the web site www.racingarchives.org
For those who have visited the site in the past I urge you to take a fresh look. The site has been totally revamped and some of the sample images from the archives will delight all.

The Research Center is a "bricks and mortar" facility that was dedicated in 1998 by Sir Stirling Moss (on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the first race at Watkins Glen). It was officially opened to the public on June 4, 1999 with Jackie Stewart on hand to do the honors. The mission of the Center is to preserve, using state of the art storage and retrieval systems, the archival history of all types of motor racing worldwide. We have been fortunate in obtaining acquisitions and collections from all over the world. The support and enthusiasm of the motor racing community - including members of this Forum - has been just wonderful.

Here is my request for help! Take a look at the web site and look particularly under "selected images." This will give you a nice example of some of the art contained in a sampling of the collections. (By the way - you will enjoy the photo of Mario Andretti - taken when he visited the Center last summer - trying on Fangio's helmet.) In the Harr Collection there are three photos displayed. In reviewing the material today I discovered that one of them is incorrectly identified as Jackie Stewart. I'm not sure who it is but I hope that someone here can tell me the driver, car, year,and circuit so we can correct this. Also, under the Rand Collection there are three photos just generally captioned as "unique formula one and rally images." Any specific help on these would also be appreciated - but particularly the #42 Ferrai photo. This is obviously Richie Ginther and must be 1960. (unfortunately I have a gap that year in my personal collection of Automobile Year - I am in Chicago - if I was in Watkins Glen I could look it up in a second.) My question is where it was taken. I am thinking Monza but perhaps someone could confirm this.

Thanks in advance for this assistance - and thanks again for all the support the members of this forum have provided.



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#2 Roger Clark

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Posted 20 March 2001 - 23:54

"Jackie Stewart" is Pedro Rodriguez (Ferrari) in the 1969 British Grand Prix at Silverstone.

I think that the Ferrari picture was taken at Brands Hatch, the silver City Trophy Meeting on 1st august 1960, but it's Phil Hill's car. this was the first meeting on the extended Brands Hatch circuit.

#3 FLB

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Posted 20 March 2001 - 23:58

There are some errors in Ray Heppenstall's interview. "Wallace" is Ken Wallis. Also, Mike Spence was indeed killed in a turbine, but it was a Lotus 56.

Memory I guess... :(

#4 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 21 March 2001 - 03:14

My sincere thanks to Roger Clark and FLB for their quick response. Just what I had hoped for . . . . a little help from our friends.

FLB - any mistakes in the Ray Heppenstall story should be viewed with an understanding of the genre. This is an example of an oral history - something we are working very hard to develop on a wide scale basis. As such I think it's a pretty impressive contribution. This is not a definitive biography or history of Howmet. On the other hand our research "team" should have picked up the spelling mistake on Ken Wallis' name. We'll fix it! Sincere thanks for letting us know.

#5 Dave Ware

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Posted 21 March 2001 - 18:07

>>the #42 Ferrai photo

>>I am thinking Monza

The crowd looks too composed to be Italian...

Forix reports that Ginther drove three races for Ferrari in 1960, and he did not use the number 42. At Monza that year he drove a 246P, a rear-engine car.

There are two people in this photo wearing the kind of hat I wear, which I just refer to as an "Irish hat." Was this hat peculiar only to England in 1960? Or might it also have been worn in Belgium or France?

What is that white road car to the right of the photo? One of those two cyclinder Citroens, or a Morgan?

Everyone is wearing sweaters or jackets so it is a tad chilly. There's a clue to time of year, and location.

Forix does not seem to list the non-championship races; no number 42 for Phil Hill in the Grands Prix.

I have to go back to work now. Great site; I had checked out the Motor Racing Research Center several months ago and I like the changes.

I happen to know tha one of our frequent posters has actually visited the Center, no mean feat what with the Altantic ocean between him and the Glen, but he might prefer to remain annonomous.

Dave

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 21 March 2001 - 18:39

Ginther drove a front engined Ferrari at Monza. I thought at first that the white road car was an Austin-HealeySprite, but I'm not sure. The whole ambiance of the picture is English. Brands Hatch is the only race of the year that matches.

#7 FLB

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Posted 21 March 2001 - 20:22

Could it be a non-championship race?

#8 Marcor

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 01:58

I also think about The Silver City Trophy at Brands Hatch, August 1, 1960.

Phil Hill's car had the #40 and Richie Ginther #42. Ginther's model was 246/0006. He finished 9th.

Results of this race:
1- Jack Brabham Cooper T53 F2-8-60 climax #2
2- Graham Hill BRM P48 485 #44
3- Bruce Mc Laren Cooper T53 F2-5-60 Climax #4
4- Phil Hill Ferrari 246/0004 #40
5- Henry Taylor H Cooper T51 F2-2-59 Climax #12
6- John Surtees Lotus 18-373 Climax #36
7- Dan Gurney Cooper T51 F2-26-59 Climax #8
8- Bruce Halford Cooper T51 F2-1-59 Climax #10
9- Richie Ginther Ferrari 246/0006 #42
10- Ian Burgess Cooper T51 F2-13-59 Maserati #30
11- Brian Naylor JBW Maserati #46
12- Keith Greene Cooper T45 Maserati #26
13- Gino Munaron Cooper T51 F2-13-60 Ferrari #22
14- Geoff Richardson Cooper T43 Alta RRA #24

DNF- Roy Salvadori Cooper T51 F2-7-59 Climax #1
DNF (crash)- David Piper Lotus 16 368 Climax #38
DNF- Masten Gregory Cooper T51 F2-12-59 Maserati #28
DNF+ PP- Jim Clark Lotus 18 374 Climax #34
DNF- Tony Brooks Cooper T51F2-24-59 Climax #6
DNF- Innes Ireland Lotus 18 371 Climax #32
DNF- George Wicken Cooper T45 F2-23-58 Climax #16
DNF- Lucien Bianchi Cooper T45 F2-23-58 Climax #18
DNF- Giorgio Scarlatti Cooper T51 F2-2-60 Ferrari #20


#9 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 03:39

Mike,

The picture clearly shows Phil Hill standing next to another Ferrari in the background. I am pleased to see that Marc had the answer.

Gil

#10 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 04:01

Between Roger, Marc and Gil I think we have really nailed that one. Thanks all. If you find anything else on the site that needs attention please don't hesitate to let me know, or just contact the site direct if you prefer. It's nice to be among friends!

#11 dbw

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 04:55

methinks the white car might be a TR3.....

#12 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 06:28

Posted Image

A practice picture?

#13 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 16:23

Roger,

It is most likely a practice picture because Phil was the nominal team leader (by longevity, if nothing else), and would have the lower numbered car.

Back then the cars were not so tailored that drivers of nearly equal height could not jump from one car to another.

Gil

#14 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 18:50

Posted Image

Another practice picture?

#15 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 March 2001 - 19:25

Motor Sport said:

"There was confusion over who drove which Ferrari. The BBC spoke of Ginther when they meant P Hill. The Motor actually gave ginther fourth place and in the official hand out Ginther had been crossed-out and P Hill substituted."

As late as the week before the race, Ferrari had not decided on their drivers. The F2 German GP was th day before, and the rumours were that Hill and von Trips would be driving in Germany, Ginther and Mairesse at Brands.

#16 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 March 2001 - 13:11

Can I revive this thread to ask whether anybody else shares my doubts about who drove which Ferrari at the 1960 Silver City Trophy? i don't have a list of starters and racing numbers, and I don't know Marcor's source (Paul Sheldon?). however, we do have pictures of Hill driving number 42, and Ginther number 40. Obviously, these pictures could have been taken in practice, but is it likely that Autosport, from where I took the pictures, would have sent a photographer to practice for a non-championship race? Possible, I suppose, as the race was on their doorstep.

I take Gil's point that it was usual for the senior driver to have the lower number, but remember Ferrari's original intention of entering ginther and Mairesse.

We also have contemporary statements that there was confusion over who drove which Ferrari.

Lastly, we have Mike's original picture of Ginther sitting in number 42.

Any more evidence or opinions?

#17 Mike Argetsinger

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Posted 25 March 2001 - 15:16

No more evidence Roger but an opinion. I suspect from the evidence you have provided (the photos - the fact that Hill replaced Mairesse - plus the fact that Motor originally listed Ginther 4th and then crossed it out and wrote in Hill - suggesting confusion on the numbers by those present) that Ginther drove #40 in the race and Hill drove #42. The reason Richie is in the #42 car in the paddock picture is, I believe, easily explainable. He was a very "hands-on" driver in terms of his involvement with the cars and the mechanics and the general running of things. Arguably more so than most drivers at that time. He may have jumped in the 42 car to run it over to the fuel truck - or to scrutineering, or something of this sort. I share your interest in this one.