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Video: Why the McLaren M7C was banned


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#1 mfd

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:50

McLaren forgetting a few key points & adding the occasional error

http://www.youtube.c...p;v=ejhvJMd8xgk

Edited by mfd, 08 August 2013 - 08:50.


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#2 opplock

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:16

Dear oh dear. First used the DFV in 1969! They appear to have forgotten 3 Grand Prix wins plus 2 non-championship wins in 1968.

Surely there must be someone at McLaren able to proofread the script. There will be no shortage of volunteers on TNF.

#3 arttidesco

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:54

"... we introduced it at the Thursday morning free practice at Monaco 1969... and it got banned."

No persecution complex showing there then :rolleyes:

Still lovely to see McLaren making an effort especially with a car that played a considerable role in the Connew story.

#4 kayemod

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 10:14

"... we introduced it at the Thursday morning free practice at Monaco 1969... and it got banned."


Typical PR person. That's not the way he makes it sound, but surely he's only talking about one feature, the high wings. That car did race at Monaco with the wings removed, it had already done the previous event in Spain, and Bruce continued using it for every other event that season.


#5 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 10:31

The M7C made its race debut in the International Trophy.

#6 Roger Clark

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:02

The M7C made its race debut in the International Trophy.

And, of course, the M7s first appeared with high front wings in practice for the Race of Champions

#7 kayemod

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:42

Anyone else notice another error on that PR guy's script? He refers to the M7C's monocoque as a "cigar box", if he knew what he was talking about, he'd have said "cigar tube".

#8 2F-001

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:29

We all make mistakes (don't we?) and I hope that I wouldn't normally leap to criticise over an odd detail, but by the self-proclaimed high standards and attention to detail of present-day McLaren that little film is quite disappointing.

In addition to errors already pointed out…

Is the narrator suggesting that the DFV represented the first instance of an engined used as a stressed chassis member?

The kiwi emblem first appeared on the M7C? Surely not; I'm sure I remember it featuring on the previous year's M7 and M8.

The 'traditional papaya' was first used on 1969's M7C? What colour were the previous M6, M7 and M8 - were they a subtly different shade?

And why would the rear wing cause the car to 'pitch back'? It's mounted to the uprights** (and the additional bracing is jointed) … There may be a resulting imbalance, and consequent understeer because there is so much downforce at the rear but that's not the same thing. Am I being unfair - and this aspect was just poorly explained - or does the script suggest a fundamental misunderstanding of what was going on?

**As an aside, this was surely the most important aspect of the mid-Monaco rule change - not so much the height of the wings but that they could no longer be unsprung.

Edited by 2F-001, 08 August 2013 - 12:29.


#9 kayemod

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 13:14

The 'traditional papaya' was first used on 1969's M7C? What colour were the previous M6, M7 and M8 - were they a subtly different shade?


McLaren never called it that at the time. I think that the "papaya" word was first coined by a journalist, and it seems to have stuck, the Company now use it themselves. I've bored you with this in the past, but the shade of orange that most older McLarens have been resprayed is not the exact shade used on the original cars, which was slightly duller and more yellow. That was how Specialised Mouldings moulded the fibreglass bodies, and the factory had paint mixed to match for spraying other parts like aluminium monocoques etc. This paint is Trimite McLaren Orange, and TNF regular Nigel Beresford, son of Don who was the McLaren factory manager back then, has an unopened tin of the real thing on a shelf in his garage. I wonder what that would fetch on eBay?

#10 mfd

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 13:21

**As an aside, this was surely the most important aspect of the mid-Monaco rule change - not so much the height of the wings but that they could no longer be unsprung.

Plus Tony, there's an inference in the use of the word "Guillotine" that is nothing to do with why they were banned. They just collapsed.

#11 2F-001

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 13:36

Oh, I forgot that one... I don't remember the term 'guillotine' being bandied around (or any talk of what they might do once on the loose), but didn't know if that was just me.

re. the colour... in my mind the M6 (and possibly the M7A) wore a deeper, slightly more reddish-brown shade (I don't mean the 'red' of the M1s) but I don't think I actually saw a McLaren for real until '69.

The subsequent colour seemed much more 'orange' to me and somewhat like the Gulf corporate colour - given the connection I never knew if that was intentional.

Edited by 2F-001, 08 August 2013 - 13:39.


#12 kayemod

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 13:42

re. the colour... in my mind the M6 (and possibly the M7A) wore a deeper, slightly more reddish-brown shade (I don't mean the 'red' of the M1s) but I don't think I actually saw a McLaren for real until '69.

The subsequent colour seemed much more 'orange' to me and somewhat like the Gulf corporate colour - given the connection I never knew if that was intentional.


No, not deeper and certainly not 'reddish-brown', the originals were a slightly lighter and muddier-looking version of what resides in the McLaren museum today, sadly the surviving cars ha've all been slightly over-restored.


#13 2F-001

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 13:45

Ah - 'muddier' is much better description of what i was thinking of; but as I said, this was in my mind - I'd not seen them for real, only on film and in print.

#14 Doug Nye

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 22:26

I very much suspect that I might be "the journalist" suspected of having coined the term 'papaya' for the Gulf-McLaren colour. Not guilty in fact. It was a direct quote from Teddy Mayer, and his use of 'papaya' in describing the shade he and Bruce selected was published in an interview I conducted with him - as far as I can recall - for 'Autosport'.

DCN

#15 mfd

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Posted 08 August 2013 - 23:24

I very much suspect that I might be "the journalist" suspected of having coined the term 'papaya' for the Gulf-McLaren colour. Not guilty in fact. It was a direct quote from Teddy Mayer, and his use of 'papaya' in describing the shade he and Bruce selected was published in an interview I conducted with him - as far as I can recall - for 'Autosport'.
DCN


Doug, as a historian, what's your opinion on this modern presentation?

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:18

I very much suspect that I might be "the journalist" suspected of having coined the term 'papaya' for the Gulf-McLaren colour. Not guilty in fact. It was a direct quote from Teddy Mayer, and his use of 'papaya' in describing the shade he and Bruce selected was published in an interview I conducted with him - as far as I can recall - for 'Autosport'.
DCN

I'm sure the factory used "paprika" in the early days - presumably the orange paprika. The name seemed to morph into papaya over the years...


#17 Allan Lupton

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:13

I'm sure the factory used "paprika" in the early days - presumably the orange paprika. The name seemed to morph into papaya over the years...

I know Mayer was from the USA, but wouldn't the New Zealanders call 'em pawpaws?

#18 kayemod

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:13

I very much suspect that I might be "the journalist" suspected of having coined the term 'papaya' for the Gulf-McLaren colour. Not guilty in fact. It was a direct quote from Teddy Mayer, and his use of 'papaya' in describing the shade he and Bruce selected was published in an interview I conducted with him - as far as I can recall - for 'Autosport'.

DCN


That thought never even crossed my mind Doug, Specialised Mouldings made all the moulded parts, the first orange McLarens were a bit before my time with the Company, but I was told that Bruce himself chose the colour from our standard pigment range, the proper name is Traffic Yellow, and the first time I remember seeing the 'papaya' word was in Autosport, but I'd probably have pointed my accusatory finger at Pete Lyons. It stuck of course, and now everyone uses the word.


#19 Allen Brown

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:24

... the proper name is Traffic Yellow ...


I did not know that. So this colour?
http://ralcolor.net/...ffic-yellow.php

Edited by Allen Brown, 09 August 2013 - 09:25.


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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:43

I know Mayer was from the USA, but wouldn't the New Zealanders call 'em pawpaws?

Yes, I think we would. But it wasn't necessarily NZ team members who coined the term...

#21 kayemod

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 09:47

I did not know that. So this colour?
http://ralcolor.net/...ffic-yellow.php


My ageing memories tell me that's ever so slightly lighter, but that may depend on the screen it's viewed on. It is more or less the original colour I remember, which was from the Llewellyn Ryland range, 'Traffic Yellow 11040'. I still have a half-used tin of the stuff somewhere, and as Nigel Beresford has a can of genuine original 'McLaren Orange' paint, if you give the two of us enough time and a DFV, we could probably knock up an M7 between the pair of us.

Edited by kayemod, 10 August 2013 - 17:01.


#22 xj13v12

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 11:12

My aging memories tell me that's ever so slightly lighter, but that may depend on the screen it's viewed on. It is more or less the original colour I remember, which was from the Llewellyn Ryland range, 'Traffic Yellow 11040'. I still have a half-used tin of the stuff somewhere, and as Nigel Beresford has a can of genuine original 'McLaren Orange' paint, if you give the two of us enough time and a DFV, we could probably knock up an M7 between the pair of us.


Ryland's Traffic yellow. However this was in the gelcoat not painted on most of the car. Also the shade of yellow/papaya/orange changed a little over a few years.
Was it a different shade of yellow? I have had 1972 and 1973 team Indy cars and not sure what the colour code is meant to be.

#23 kayemod

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 15:45

Ryland's Traffic yellow. However this was in the gelcoat not painted on most of the car. Also the shade of yellow/papaya/orange changed a little over a few years.
Was it a different shade of yellow? I have had 1972 and 1973 team Indy cars and not sure what the colour code is meant to be.


The things I do for TNF, this is Rylands Traffic Yellow photographed in my garden this afternoon. That square is a test piece done many years ago, but it's been lurking deep inside a filing cabinet since then, so no fading or other deterioration, I think due to sunlight etc, it's photographed ever so slightly light, but that's the pigment that orange McLarens used to be moulded in.

Posted Image

And this is the tin of the very stuff I mentioned earlier, probably over 20 years old, but if uncontaminated and stored correctly, it lasts for much longer than that.

Posted Image

McLaren bodywork was moulded with this pigment colouring all the way through the item, and highly polished. That was just the fibreglass bits of course, but they had the exact paint shade mixed specially for them by Trimite a 3M company, it was exactly the same colour, a perfect match, and this was applied to aluminium monocoque sides etc. In my day, McLaren bodywork , at least the moulded items, were never painted. Although their turnover in the 70s would make them utter paupers by present-day standards, they were near the top wealth-wise at the time, very few damaged bodywork items were repaired, and then probably only for testing, which would usually have meant a paint finish. I never saw anything like that, they'd always use a new nose cone etc, probably one of the few teams that could afford that kind of extravagance, at least in Can Am. The only difference in appearance between GRP or fibreglass and paint is that they reflect light slightly differently, also GRP tends to fade a little more than paint with exposure to strong sunlight. Pigments with better colour fastness were available for colours most affected, but I'm pretty sure that McLaren never asked for them, they'd have replaced anything that looked washed-out. Any surviving orange cars would be unlikely to still have any original body items, and painting would be more likely than the correct moulded finish. I suspect that many owners would choose something a shade brighter than a true match, which is what McLaren themselves seem to have done with their own cars, but these just don't look quite right to anyone with a good recollection of the real thing.

Posted Image

And to finish, while I was taking pics of colour samples and pigment cans, I took this one of Dani who's just reached his first birthday. You can never have too many pics of Cairn terriers, I think that TNF is a better place with the few I've added over the last few years.


#24 Garsted

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 18:38


"And why would the rear wing cause the car to 'pitch back'? It's mounted to the uprights** (and the additional bracing is jointed) … There may be a resulting imbalance, and consequent understeer because there is so much downforce at the rear but that's not the same thing. Am I being unfair - and this aspect was just poorly explained - or does the script suggest a fundamental misunderstanding of what was going on?"

You could argue that the script was correct as the drag on the rear wing would tend to unload the front axle, all the more so for its being on those tall supports. Does anyone know how much down force and drag those early efforts actually generated?

Steve


#25 Sisyphus

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 19:16

[/quote]
You can never have too many pics of Cairn terriers, I think that TNF is a better place with the few I've added over the last few years.
[/quote]

:up: :up:

Not to go off thread, but I completely agree--my late Kermit was a wonderful little dog for the 16 years I knew him.


#26 mfd

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 23:57

I did not know that. So this colour?
http://ralcolor.net/...ffic-yellow.php

A name coincidence Allen. RAL 1023 is a "proper" yellow - this code of paint was used for Joest NewMan Porsche 956 if you recall?

#27 kayemod

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:31

A name coincidence Allen. RAL 1023 is a "proper" yellow...



You're right of course, and Rylands Traffic Yellow wasn't/isn't a British Standard colour, though on-screen at least, they do look quite similar. We could debate whether the original McLaren colour was a "yellowey-orange" or an "orangey-yellow", but the cars the Company still own are all "orangey-orange", or in my eyes, just plain orange. Rather a shame, a small piece of history gone forever, though I doubt if anyone much under 60 either understands or cares, and neither apparently, does Ron.

#28 ChrisJson

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:54

I doubt if anyone much under 60 either understands or cares, and neither apparently, does Ron.



I do care but then I´m on the right side of 60!!


Christer

#29 smbrm

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 16:09

Great looking dog!

Good stories too!

Edited by smbrm, 11 August 2013 - 16:10.


#30 Doug Nye

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 16:37

Doug, as a historian, what's your opinion on this modern presentation?



Aah well - I could not possibly comment. But I have asked McLaren to take a look at the concerns (and Facts) expressed in this thread...
:cool:

DCN

#31 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 17:03

You guys(and gals) must remember these are acts of marketing, not scholarship  ;)

#32 arttidesco

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:03

I do care but then I´m on the right side of 60!!


Christer


I'm not sure what the right side of 60 is on this forum but being a young'un under said age, I would certainly appreciate it if McLaren's of the correct period were painted Traffic Yellow 11040, would I notice the difference probably not, but the knowledge of authenticity for an owner must be more satisfying than worrying about some paint spotter coming along and laughing his socks off at an incorrect colour match.

#33 Odseybod

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:30

I may be talking through my Bottom (not for the first time, some might say) but wouldn't the colour -at least on the metal bits - depend on the base colour it was being painted over? I remember a chap from Jim Stokes workshops (maybe Mr S himself) saying that the only way they could get the right shade of Equipe Francochamps yellow on the 'recreation' 156 sharknose was to spray it over the red the car would originally have been supplied in - spraying it over primer resulted in a shade that was just plain wrong. Mind you, not sure how that works with the impregnated colour in the fibreglass bits.

#34 mfd

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:26

I may be talking through my Bottom (not for the first time, some might say) but wouldn't the colour -at least on the metal bits - depend on the base colour it was being painted over? I remember a chap from Jim Stokes workshops (maybe Mr S himself) saying that the only way they could get the right shade of Equipe Francochamps yellow on the 'recreation' 156 sharknose was to spray it over the red the car would originally have been supplied in - spraying it over primer resulted in a shade that was just plain wrong. Mind you, not sure how that works with the impregnated colour in the fibreglass bits.

Tony, I'd say your question depends on "then & now" In period things like lead were part of the mix & paint technology was different too. Yellow as opposed to orange is a particularly difficult colour to get coverage or opacity with, so always over a white base, is the rule.

As for the "orange" I know the chap at McLaren who was responsible for formulating the colour, initially to repaint the M8D, using today's paint technology but matched to their samples from the 70's. I'm not sure they had access to 60's stuff as per SM gel coats, but I know he went to extremes to get there & knowing a little of the way such things work in house, there was almost certainly meetings to discuss it with variations on a theme...

#35 kayemod

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 13:41

As for the "orange" I know the chap at McLaren who was responsible for formulating the colour, initially to repaint the M8D, using today's paint technology but matched to their samples from the 70's. I'm not sure they had access to 60's stuff as per SM gel coats, but I know he went to extremes to get there & knowing a little of the way such things work in house, there was almost certainly meetings to discuss it with variations on a theme...


Are his initials G L by any chance ?

As most of us know, our road cars begin to change colour through fading the moment they leave the factory and start being exposed to UV etc, and after a while there will be subtle differences between roof, bonnet, doors etc, doors can even vary between top and bottom. Where cars need a partial respray, a skilled re-finisher will achieve a perfect match so that the car appears to be exactly the same colour on top, each side etc, even though some panels are new paint and others two or three years old, possibly more, so with modern paint technology, it's possible to achieve a perfect match with almost anything. The current "McLaren Orange" as used on their road cars is a brighter colour that the one that Bruce chose, and that's fine, but it isn't Bruce's "McLaren Orange". They own the cars, and they can paint them any colour they like within reason, but it's wrong to claim that they are "historically accurate", because they're not. McLaren could very easily have re-finished their M8, M7C, M19 etc in the exact shade of orange that they first appeared in, the one that I and some others still remember, but someone has taken a deliberate decision that they should be painted in a different shade of orange. They could have reproduced the true original colour very easily if they'd wanted, there wouldn't be the slightest problem tracking down colour samples etc, but for whatever reason, it's clear that they chose not to do that. However much "formulating" was done, there's not the slightest doubt that someone decided that the M8, M7C, M14 etc, should be painted a slightly different colour from the one they originally faced the World in. Having worked on the original cars, it saddens me that they aren't quite what I remember, but I'm sure that I'm in a tiny minority, even among present day anoraks viewing them at events like Goodwood. Ross may well be right in saying that someone somewhere made "a marketing decision", but I still think the decision to paint their historic cars the same colour as the current road vehicles, if that's really what they did, is rather sad.


#36 mfd

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 13:59

Are his initials G L by any chance ?
someone decided...
I still think the decision to paint their historic cars the same colour as the current road vehicles, if that's really what they did, is rather sad.

1. You might think that Rob...
2. Guess who?
3. The current road cars, of which I have sample, F1 LM of 96 ish & the F1 testing livery late 90's aren't, nor were intended to be same. I still remain fairly convinced from memory of being told the rebuilt cars were different slightly but intended to replicate the period paint & not the fibre glass colour

#37 kayemod

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 16:39

1. You might think that Rob...
2. Guess who?
3. The current road cars, of which I have sample, F1 LM of 96 ish & the F1 testing livery late 90's aren't, nor were intended to be same. I still remain fairly convinced from memory of being told the rebuilt cars were different slightly but intended to replicate the period paint & not the fibre glass colour


1. As I suspected.

2. Again, as I suspected. As he wasn't involved at all in the company's orange period, I'm not surprised that he doesn't feel he's the custodian thereof.

3. Orange paint and fibreglass from the 60s & 70s were absolutely identical, McLaren had the paint specially matched, so there's no difference at all. I don't doubt that Trimite could have delivered 'the right stuff', no problem at all had they been asked, but for reasons best known to themselves, McLaren chose to paint their cars in an appreciably different shade of orange, if you see them side by side, the difference is quite marked. Maybe 'suspect 2' thinks they look better that way. He employs three PRs, it would be nice if one of them could find the time to explain the thinking behind what they've done, but the world has changed in many ways since the originals left Colnbrook, I doubt if anyone at McLaren International comes on TNF, Racing Comments possibly, but not here. I'm getting more old-farty by the day.


#38 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 16:48

Actually Rob, he was there at the end of the orange period - I used to help him by flatting and masking bodywork in the evenings after school in 1976 (perhaps earlier), when the Indy car was still orange.

With regard to the fate of damaged bodywork, your recollection that not much was repaired is correct, but not all of it went in the Biffa....

Posted Image

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 12 August 2013 - 17:06.


#39 kayemod

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 17:32

Actually Rob, he was there at the end of the orange period


Yes I know, I meant he who must be obeyed in all things, not G L but R D.

Some very nice souvenirs, don't suppose you kept the rest of the cars?


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#40 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 17:45

Ah, I see.

Not many other McLaren bits - a little more trimmed bodywork and a couple of originals of those lovely tall inlet trumpets (M8A and M8D), plus a couple of wheel nuts.

As a nice closing of the circle (for my family) the M7C was actually restored by Penske Cars. Personally I didn't have much involvement other than drawing a couple of bits for the front wing, but as you might imagine I found reasons to spend a lot of time in Car Build while it was going together.

Posted Image

Edited by Nigel Beresford, 12 August 2013 - 17:53.


#41 kayemod

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 18:53

Ah, I see.

Not many other McLaren bits - a little more trimmed bodywork and a couple of originals of those lovely tall inlet trumpets (M8A and M8D), plus a couple of wheel nuts.

As a nice closing of the circle (for my family) the M7C was actually restored by Penske Cars. Personally I didn't have much involvement other than drawing a couple of bits for the front wing, but as you might imagine I found reasons to spend a lot of time in Car Build while it was going together.

Posted Image


Lovely, absolutely lovely, and on my screen the colour looks pretty close to the original. It's odd, but in artificial light or flash, those bits in your garage look far too orangy, not far off McLaren's 'not quite right' restoration jobs.


#42 D-Type

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 19:10

Colours change depending on the light. I once had a red car that received a dent when it was about three months old. the bodyshop achieved a perfect match in daylight. But under yellow sodium light it was visibly different.

#43 mfd

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 19:27

Colours change depending on the light.

Exactly & it is impossible to pass judgement on a screen photo, or any other for that matter.

#44 stuartbrs

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:57

D-Type is right of course, colour is entirely dependant on the type of light that falls on it... plus, its impossible to remember a colour accurately.

Of course, the colour probably is wrong, modern technology cant replicate everything, especially the look and gloss levels of old paint. Even if a light spectrometer were to accurately measure the original colour it would look a bit different as it would probably be a slightly different gloss level due to modern paint, the way its applied, the temperature, the painter etc etc etc.

Paint colour is never a constant ( especially orange! )... :)