119 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

For those who are interested in the general effects of how drugs affect the human brain, David Nutt, the former government advisor on drugs who quit when he and his colleague's scientific advice was consistently ignored in favour of alarmist nonsense has an excellent book Drugs - without the hot air: minimising the harms of legal and illegal drugs which includes a fascinating chapter on drugs in sport. The writing on cognitive enhancing drugs is probably most relevant here and his work and analyses of the existing studies so far suggests that the usual talked about benefits are not as clear as previously thought and they contain corresponding downsides. For example, to take Amphicar's excellent post:

Amphicar, on Aug 12 2013, 12:47, said:

There is at least one documented case of a Formula 1 driver taking a performance enhancing drug before a major race (albeit not an F1 race). Before the 1955 Mille Miglia, Stirling Moss took some "pep-pills" given to him by Fangio, his Mercedes team-mate. Moss, driving single-handed alongside navigator Denis Jenkinson, duly won the grueling 10 hour race, with Moss recording in his diary "Fangio's pills are FANTASTIC !" Much later, in an interview with Doug Nye, Moss commented:

"In the first grand prix races that year in Argentina - run in terrible heat - the Old Boy had been the only one to complete the distance solo. So when he offered his magic pills (and that was the only time he ever shared them) we accepted. I took mine, Jenks didn't take his. To this day I've no idea if that pill would be legal or illegal, acceptable or banned. But at that time it was no issue. Dexedrine and Benzedrine were commonly used in rallies. The object was simply to keep awake, like wartime bomber crews."

...very interesting and it sounds he was given some sort of amphetamine, not really a good idea. Such stimulants are often described as giving more energy, making people more alert, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that this is the case - more likely is they just make the user think they are more alert and have better concentration etc. David Nutt illustrates his work on some of the drawbacks of amphetamines with the very sad case of a contemporary of Moss who wasn't so fortunate taking speed: Tommy Simpson, the British cyclist who collapsed and died during the Tour de France:

"...what makes this case particularly tragic is that it's unlikely the drugs [brandy and amphetamines] helped him cycle faster. What they did do was allow him to ignore the warning signs of overexertion and overheating which would have forced him to stop much earlier, and would probably have saved his life."

David Nutt's book also gives us another interesting parallel to give food for thought on how stiumulants might hypothetically help or hinder F1 drivers when he talks of how he was consulted by the British Aerobatic Association who were worried about the effects of stimulants on flying:

"Although this hasn't been formally researched, we do have case studies from the Second World War: the German air force used Methamphetamine heavily which, if anything seemed to hinder pilots' abilities in the air. Although stimulants can help people stay awake, they can also get people locked into stereotyped routines, making them less able to respond to the world around them."

Interesting, huh? If he is correct in his research, sounds like this would be more likely to severely disadvantage a driver. Nutt concluded there would be no overall benefit to pilots taking such drugs and ended up not recommending mandatory drug testing for them. The brain, and how it reacts to drugs is a fascinating subject but so far it seems that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

[John B]

Some hormone users have reported improved vision/hand eye coordination (which may be partly psychological after taking the drugs). I think it's briefly discussed in the Game of Shadows book about baseball player Barry Bonds. At this point it's hard to be surprised about any athlete doing something in recent times. For some teams it might be easier to try and figure out who isn't/wasn't on something.

[pRy]

thesham01, on Aug 12 2013, 11:49, said:

When there is so much at stake, and someone builds their life around something (in this case racing) then the idea of taking drugs to gain an advantage is very real.

But is there really a scenario where a struggling driver could take an illegal substance and suddenly change his career prospects? I can't see there being a window of opportunity for that. Drivers are limited too much by the car under them. It's not as if a driver can take an illegal substance and suddenly go 0.6 seconds quicker per lap than they could before. There simply isn't the potential for it. The variables are too fixed.

There is perhaps more potential for drug use to assist in training in between races or during the off season but again.. does being the fittest driver in F1 = performance gains? Not really. It just helps during the really humid races to ensure the driver finishes feeling fresher than the next guy. But when has a driver won a race and his fitness been the determining factor?

It's not like physical sports were aerobic fitness is key and where muscle strength really can make a difference.

If there were corners in F1 that drivers were too scared to take flat normally but if they were on drugs they weren't as scared and kept their foot down, then yes perhaps that might offer an advantage.. but there aren't any corners like that in F1. Drivers have no problems reaching the limits of modern era circuits in their cars.

[pinkypants]

Interesting articles and comments on the matter here:

http://www.vivaf1.com/blog/?p=7086

http://www.f1fanatic...dont-use-drugs/

http://www.f1fanatic...ing-initiative/

[BRG]

zepunishment, on Aug 12 2013, 09:03, said:

I'd love this to be true. It'd be hilarious to watch 20 cars driven by men who can't remember 20 corners over the course a weekend get gradually more and more lost and confused over a two hour race. It might even make me get a sky subscription

Kimi? In Brazil last year?

The general response here seems to be :-

CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!

NO! NO! NO! NOT IN MY SPORT!!!

IT CAN'T BE TRUE, NOT OUR LOVELY IDOLS!!!!!!!

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!! NEVER, NEVER!!!

Which is pretty sad really. Why should motorsport be the only professional sport that doesn't dope?

[Dolph]

Santuri9, on Aug 12 2013, 11:00, said:

I remember discussing this with a few friends and we came to the conclusion that there is no space for performance enhancing drugs in F1

You don't make it to F1 without being at the top of your game mentally and physically and any side effects of PED's could risk that.

Some drugs have no side effects. Your friends don't know all the facts.

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, on Aug 12 2013, 11:20, said:

Tomas Enge tested positive for THC in 2001 and was never allowed in F1 again.

BS. Nobody stopped Enge from joining F1. Teams just didn't want him.

Ferrari_F1_fan_2001, on Aug 12 2013, 11:20, said:

I'd like to think that F1 has developed more advanced drugs testing since that time and if drivers were doping surely at least ONE would have been caught by now.

Wasn't there an F1 photographer/conspiracy theorist that accused Schumacher of doping a little while back on his blog? Darren something I think his name was.

Darren Heath hated MS. It had nothing to do with facts.

[Dolph]

BenettonB192, on Aug 12 2013, 13:50, said:

I don't think it's viable as a long term thing because drugs that improve concentration and self confidence all have bad side effects that would actualy be disadvantageous for the performance after a while.

No

[ZZei]

For sure its possible it has been done in the past but nowadays? Imagine the trouble the drivers would get into if they were found out. They wouldnt just lose their license, they would be trashed by the public even more since they're causing trouble to other drivers. For sure they could use some performance enchancing drugs but there's no guarantee how they would work on each individual even more so on a long run. The benefit most of the drivers would possibly gain would in most cases be worthless anyway as the guy with the best car would propably still finish ahead.

Edited by ZZei, 12 August 2013 - 18:19.

[BRG]

ZZei, on Aug 12 2013, 19:18, said:

For sure its possible it has been done in the past but nowadays? Imagine the trouble the drivers would get into if they were found out.

You could say the same about other sports and sportsmen. Yet just the other day there were several positive dope tests in athletics. And some people have started to ask questions about Usain Bolt. Just as they used to about Lance Armstrong.

I truly believe that it is only a matter of time before motorsport gets caught out over doping. With so much money involved, the stakes are too high for people not to resort to cheating. No-one is surprised to hear about teams cheating on technical matters. So why wouldn't doping to be seen as another way to get an advantage? If it does break, it will be a catastrophe for our sport. The media would have a field day over druggy drivers in control of massively fast cars.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think the main question is what would you take and where would the gain show up? Nothing about racing makes me suspicious. But if you watch athletics or cycling, pretty much all of it is suspicious.

The cheating scandal that hasn't yet exploded in racing isn't drugs, but probably how often the winning car in any series passes tech but isn't completely legit.

Edited by Ross Stonefeld, 12 August 2013 - 18:53.

[Winter98]

ZZei, on Aug 12 2013, 11:18, said:

For sure its possible it has been done in the past but nowadays? Imagine the trouble the drivers would get into if they were found out. They wouldnt just lose their license, they would be trashed by the public even more since they're causing trouble to other drivers.

Look at baseball. Something like 15 players were just caught taking PEDs and given long suspensions and trashed by the public. They seemed to think it was worth it, and if you accept player's anecdotal evidence, far far more players are using PEDs.

ZZei, on Aug 12 2013, 11:18, said:

For sure they could use some performance enchancing drugs but there's no guarantee how they would work on each individual even more so on a long run.
The benefit most of the drivers would possibly gain would in most cases be worthless anyway as the guy with the best car would propably still finish ahead.

You get a car by demonstrating that you are a tiny fraction quicker than the guys you are competing against for the seat.

[Myrvold]

Fastcake, on Aug 12 2013, 18:55, said:

Take a look at the FIA's figures here. A lot less than Cycling or Athletics, but then those sports have had major problems with doping.

And then, do they have the problems because of the percentage-wise huge amount of people using dope, or do they "get" these troubles because the test so much more than other sports?

The more focus and concentration you are able to have, the better, cleaner, more consistent you will drive, and you'll also give better feedback. It can be the tenth of a second on each lap that makes you take that last single point to take the title.

[F1ultimate]

BenettonB192, on Aug 12 2013, 11:50, said:

I don't think it's viable as a long term thing because drugs that improve concentration and self confidence all have bad side effects that would actualy be disadvantageous for the performance after a while.

The drugs that you can buy from a random Stone Island wearing lad is very different from the drugs that top athletes with money get developed for them.

[superdelphinus]

zepunishment, on Aug 12 2013, 09:03, said:

I'd love this to be true. It'd be hilarious to watch 20 cars driven by men who can't remember 20 corners over the course a weekend get gradually more and more lost and confused over a two hour race. It might even make me get a sky subscription

Raikkonen's obviously clean if brazil last season is anything to go by

[Talisman]

BRG, on Aug 12 2013, 19:43, said:

You could say the same about other sports and sportsmen. Yet just the other day there were several positive dope tests in athletics. And some people have started to ask questions about Usain Bolt. Just as they used to about Lance Armstrong.

I truly believe that it is only a matter of time before motorsport gets caught out over doping. With so much money involved, the stakes are too high for people not to resort to cheating. No-one is surprised to hear about teams cheating on technical matters. So why wouldn't doping to be seen as another way to get an advantage? If it does break, it will be a catastrophe for our sport. The media would have a field day over druggy drivers in control of massively fast cars.

I disagree. The risk/benefit calculations aren't in favour of doping in motorsports.

If you're a professional cyclist or athlete your maximum performance is dictated by genetics. If you're a 100% fit cyclist but your VO2max isn't as good as the top guy you are NEVER going to win unless he has an off-day. If thats the case then performance enhancing drugs will make a difference and the risk will be most likely worthwhile.

However in F1 driver performance is only part of the equation and PEDs less effective. Amphetamines are useful if you're an American pilot over Vietnam flying your 130th hour of the week trying to keep awake let alone fight at maximum capacity. It is far less useful (if at all) if you're a pampered but extremely fit F1 racer being primed for a quali session or a race. Tacrine being used to increase learning capacity so tracks can be learnt more quickly? How about spending a bit more money making your simulator more accurate? 100% legal and legitimate and almost certainly more effective.

If there is drug abuse in F1 I suspect that it'll be for the injured driver getting back to health such as Webber after his fractured tibia (not accusing him of anything, just saying that it would have been useful in his situation), not for a current active driver.

Then there would be the added pressure from Bernie and the FIA, a drug scandal would scare off the blue chip companies that make F1 the lucrative sport it is.

Edited by Talisman, 12 August 2013 - 20:02.

[Fastcake]

Myrvold, on Aug 12 2013, 20:17, said:

And then, do they have the problems because of the percentage-wise huge amount of people using dope, or do they "get" these troubles because the test so much more than other sports?

No, both sports have had such doping problems because of the well known and proven advantages of taking drugs to improve your performance, and have hence developed sophisticated testing programmes that are more effective at catching drugs-cheats. If the FIA were to follow the lead of Athletics, I don't believe we will see any more positive drugs tests, there just does not appear to be any known drugs that will give a real benefit. You've also got to consider the systematic doping programmes that have been developed. Cycling has had entire teams on a regimented course of drugs, while the East Germans enacted what was probably the most wide-spread cheating effort in history to "win" athletics medals. It's far more easier in some sports to get in contact with people who will set you up with drugs to boost your performance. In motorsport, it will be down to the driver (because the teams will not touch this) to try and find something that may, or not, give some sort of performance enhancement in a race.


I have always believed that F1, out of all major sports, is probably the least likely to develop a doping problem. I would hold the same opinion for almost all other series as well - could anyone actually imagine touring car drivers drugging up to go faster? Reading the posts about Moss and those magic pills, it does make me consider that if any drivers would try and use drugs, it would be a off-the-shelf product designed to increase alertness, and it would be in Le Mans rather than F1. Whether or not it would have anything more than a placebo effect is another question.

[camberley]

Mark Webber last year called for more doping tests in F1


This year in March WADA carried out some surprise doping checks

Edited by camberley, 12 August 2013 - 21:12.

[Amphicar]

SophieB, on Aug 12 2013, 18:04, said:

...very interesting and it sounds he was given some sort of amphetamine, not really a good idea. Such stimulants are often described as giving more energy, making people more alert, but there doesn't seem to be much evidence that this is the case - more likely is they just make the user think they are more alert and have better concentration etc. David Nutt illustrates his work on some of the drawbacks of amphetamines with the very sad case of a contemporary of Moss who wasn't so fortunate taking speed: Tommy Simpson, the British cyclist who collapsed and died during the Tour de France:

"...what makes this case particularly tragic is that it's unlikely the drugs [brandy and amphetamines] helped him cycle faster. What they did do was allow him to ignore the warning signs of overexertion and overheating which would have forced him to stop much earlier, and would probably have saved his life."

David Nutt's book also gives us another interesting parallel to give food for thought on how stiumulants might hypothetically help or hinder F1 drivers when he talks of how he was consulted by the British Aerobatic Association who were worried about the effects of stimulants on flying:

"Although this hasn't been formally researched, we do have case studies from the Second World War: the German air force used Methamphetamine heavily which, if anything seemed to hinder pilots' abilities in the air. Although stimulants can help people stay awake, they can also get people locked into stereotyped routines, making them less able to respond to the world around them."

Interesting, huh? If he is correct in his research, sounds like this would be more likely to severely disadvantage a driver. Nutt concluded there would be no overall benefit to pilots taking such drugs and ended up not recommending mandatory drug testing for them. The brain, and how it reacts to drugs is a fascinating subject but so far it seems that there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Researching further on Fangio's "magic pills" it seems probable that they were a proprietary drug called "Dynavis" produced by a Swiss pharmaceutical company that is now part of the Pfizer Group. The pills were apparently originally prescribed to Fangio to combat excessive thirst during long-distance events. Fangio found that they also had the effect of helping him keep awake longer. I've been unable to find out anything definitive about the composition of "Dynavis" but the "dyna" in the name may be a clue that the pills contained amphetamine or possibly Benzedrine, which was officially prescribed to RAF and USAF bomber crews during WW2 to combat fatigue.

It seems fairly certain that Fangio's pills contained something more than an anti-diuretic. After winning the Mille Miglia, Moss left Brescia at 12.15am, accompanied by his girlfriend Sally Weston and drove through the night to breakfast in Munich, then to lunch with the Daimler-Benz directors in Stuttgart. He left there at 5.15pm and reached Cologne by 9.15, when he and Sally finally took a hotel room. He had been behind the wheel, without rest, for around 39 hours.

On the subject of cocaine, in an interview with Doug Nye (reported in the Nostalgia Forum), Fangio told him that during the Carretera Gran Premio races of several thousand miles at a time he and other drivers had tried chewing coca leaves in the high Andes to stave off sleep - or possibly to slow down their metabolisms to counteract the reduced oxygen at high altitude.

[PayasYouRace]

Amphicar, on Aug 13 2013, 13:11, said:

Researching further on Fangio's "magic pills" it seems probable that they were a proprietary drug called "Dynavis" produced by a Swiss pharmaceutical company that is now part of the Pfizer Group. The pills were apparently originally prescribed to Fangio to combat excessive thirst during long-distance events. Fangio found that they also had the effect of helping him keep awake longer. I've been unable to find out anything definitive about the composition of "Dynavis" but the "dyna" in the name may be a clue that the pills contained amphetamine or possibly Benzedrine, which was officially prescribed to RAF and USAF bomber crews during WW2 to combat fatigue.

It seems fairly certain that Fangio's pills contained something more than an anti-diuretic. After winning the Mille Miglia, Moss left Brescia at 12.15am, accompanied by his girlfriend Sally Weston and drove through the night to breakfast in Munich, then to lunch with the Daimler-Benz directors in Stuttgart. He left there at 5.15pm and reached Cologne by 9.15, when he and Sally finally took a hotel room. He had been behind the wheel, without rest, for around 39 hours.

On the subject of cocaine, in an interview with Doug Nye (reported in the Nostalgia Forum), Fangio told him that during the Carretera Gran Premio races of several thousand miles at a time he and other drivers had tried chewing coca leaves in the high Andes to stave off sleep - or possibly to slow down their metabolisms to counteract the reduced oxygen at high altitude.

Top info

[1Devil1]

Ross Stonefeld, on Aug 12 2013, 15:11, said:

No, it has the opposite effect on people who don't have the symptoms.

No, can't be - why is Ritalin used by students to be more concentrated during their exams. It's reported it helps you a lot to work like a machine, completely focused on your task, but it has side effects like being aggressive or lacking in social interaction after using it. In Germany it was reported it's a common drug abuse. So I wouldn't call it the opposite effect - Ritalin helps people with ADHD (there is no difference between children and adults) to be a little bit more concentrated, for people without the symptoms it could be useful as well but I guess the side effects are bigger.

[Taxi]

Drugs and driving yeah! Bloody glorious.

I have worked on a professional program for the drivers who need them:

Vettel and Alonso: Jamaican cannabis - So that they could relax and stop worring about winning at all costs.

Kimi: Regular Cannabis so he can smile more.

Hamilton: Heroin- Drugs are cool and heroin is the top of coolness and Hami tries so hard to be cool.

Grosjean and Maldonado - Cocaine. Its seems to sharpen reflexes and spacial awareness. It's a win win situation: They aren't afraid of anything nowadays so no concerns about increasing agressivity.

Massa, Chilton and Gutierrez - Speed pills. No further explanation needed.

Hulkenberg, Botas, Rosberg and Ricciardo - LSD because they are sooooooooo boring.

Marrussia drivers: Crack - has the same efect of cocaine but it's cheaper.

Webber must be clean co's he's 64.

Edited by Taxi, 13 August 2013 - 12:04.

[Ellios]

I spent a fair amount of time reading about drug use in sports, mainly endurance events such as cycling or power events such as track and field/Swimming 100/200m sprint etc... I have no doubt there is an omerta surrounding drugs in many sports and from my experience talking with friends & family most of them would prefer to remain in denial that drug use is as widespread as for instance recently reported by the Australians

As for doping in F1 - I doubt the sport is free from doping, it doesn't have to be specific to the drivers, it can include engineers, team crews etc... perhaps the drivers may have tinkered with weight loss drugs, recently Anthony West was suspended from Moto2 races

heard this a few times recently 'if you don't dope you won't cope in professional sports'

having said that I'm in the innocent until proven guilty camp

[SpamJet]

BRG, on Aug 12 2013, 10:39, said:

Which is pretty sad really. Why should motorsport be the only professional sport that doesn't dope?

Are you saying that you want the drivers to use drugs?

[PayasYouRace]

Taxi, on Aug 13 2013, 14:02, said:

Chilton Speed pills. No further explanation needed.



Marrussia drivers: Crack - has the same efect of cocaine but it's cheaper.

I hope those two mix well

[alframsey]

I really don't know where performance enhancing drugs would play a part in F1. I mean I guess some concentration promoting drug might help but I can't see it offering much benefit.

[alframsey]

Taxi, on Aug 13 2013, 13:02, said:

Drugs and driving yeah! Bloody glorious.

I have worked on a professional program for the drivers who need them:

Vettel and Alonso: Jamaican cannabis - So that they could relax and stop worring about winning at all costs.

Kimi: Regular Cannabis so he can smile more.

Hamilton: Heroin- Drugs are cool and heroin is the top of coolness and Hami tries so hard to be cool.

Grosjean and Maldonado - Cocaine. Its seems to sharpen reflexes and spacial awareness. It's a win win situation: They aren't afraid of anything nowadays so no concerns about increasing agressivity.

Massa, Chilton and Gutierrez - Speed pills. No further explanation needed.

Hulkenberg, Botas, Rosberg and Ricciardo - LSD because they are sooooooooo boring.

Marrussia drivers: Crack - has the same efect of cocaine but it's cheaper.

Webber must be clean co's he's 64.

I understand the complete tongue in cheek-ness of your post but I have never in my life heard anyone describe heroin as being cool

[Ross Stonefeld]

1Devil1, on Aug 13 2013, 06:51, said:

No, can't be - why is Ritalin used by students to be more concentrated during their exams. It's reported it helps you a lot to work like a machine, completely focused on your task, but it has side effects like being aggressive or lacking in social interaction after using it.

Because Ritalin is a stimulant.

[intelligentsia]

BRG, on Aug 12 2013, 20:43, said:

I truly believe that it is only a matter of time before motorsport gets caught out over doping. With so much money involved, the stakes are too high for people not to resort to cheating. No-one is surprised to hear about teams cheating on technical matters. So why wouldn't doping to be seen as another way to get an advantage? If it does break, it will be a catastrophe for our sport. The media would have a field day over druggy drivers in control of massively fast cars.

I am doubtful that doping drivers would actually cause such a big scandal. F1 just has a different attitude then some sports. Unlike some other sports, F1 fans seems to have an ambiguous relationship with cheating itself. Cheating in F1 is practically encouraged. Rules in F1 are hardly ever black and white, teams continuously search for ways to break and bend the rules. Even some of last few big events in F1 still has fans very divided. Mercedes was caught testing their latest car and there are people who believe that they should have gotten a bigger punishment, but there are also people who believe that they were just clever in exploiting the rules. Teams are practically encouraged to bend and break rules at every turn. The same goes for drivers as well, there are lot of Schumacher fans who admire the fact that he crashed into competitors, because he showed how much he wants to win. In general drivers dont have much qualms with pushing the limits on track or exploiting the rules.
Basically rules in F1 are ambiguous and meant to be bend, F1 fans almost seem to have a certain admiration for cheating.
If a top driver actually one day does get caught doping it would quickly lead to the same ambiguity that is displayed in all of the rules, and events that have gone by. F1 doesn't have its own doping list and people would question if the drug in question would actually have an effect on driving. People would also question whether a list that was compiled for other sports where physical limits are the most important factor, should apply to F1. F1 fans just have a different relationship with rules then most other sports, in the end I doubt it would cause such a huge scandal as in some other sports.

Edited by intelligentsia, 13 August 2013 - 13:32.

[Taxi]

alframsey, on Aug 13 2013, 14:24, said:

I understand the complete tongue in cheek-ness of your post but I have never in my life heard anyone describe heroin as being cool

I failed the rethoric fallacy there: I meant drugs are cool, heroin is the strongest so it must be the coolest.

[Amphicar]

alframsey, on Aug 13 2013, 14:24, said:

I understand the complete tongue in cheek-ness of your post but I have never in my life heard anyone describe heroin as being cool

Never heard of heroin chic?

[BRG]

SpamJet, on Aug 13 2013, 13:59, said:

Are you saying that you want the drivers to use drugs?

No, try reading my post again. What is sad is the insistence of many here that 'It could never happen in our sport, we are special and different'. It is happening everywhere else both in sport and in other avenues of life. If F1 saw even the smallest edge to be gained, they would be doping like no tomorrow. THis is a sport with nutritionists and medical types supervising drivers' every movement. They might not even know that they were being given something in thier food or their rehydration fluids. Which is what was happening in cycling.

[HP]

thesham01, on Aug 12 2013, 18:49, said:

Look how hard it is to get into Formula One, imagine you get lucky enough to get a chance to race for a season, you will have the mindset that you will do anything to stay in F1, and for some people that includes drugs.

At this time, a big sponsor get's you easier into F1 and keeps you there, than using drug's to improve your driving. However if there are drugs that improve driving, I can imagine that they will be used. So it's the job of the antidoping office to do something about it. The mere allegation there did some doping happen in the past however isn't good enough for me.

[Taxi]

I can only answer for myself: I I was told to take cocaine to drive at Marussia for a single race, hell yeah I would do it.

So, by this logic I expect a lot of other guys to do it also. No doubts. What will I say when they get Kimi or talk about Piquet/Prost or Hakkinen? I will live in denial, and promisse eternal love to my idols no matter what.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Cocaine makes people impatient, loud and chatty. I think Grosjean drives like someone on cocaine... and he's super skinny... hmmm.... (kidding, I kid)


I don't see anything that affects perception being something an F1 driver would want.

Steroids are different; Vettel's rabid aggressiveness might fit that bill. Things like EPO would be good I would think, things that help drivers physically recover better.


It seemed like at one time MotoGp riders looked like a bunch of heroin addicts, super gaunt, sunken eyes, pale... ? Guys who need to be as light as possible, while at the same time living with the pain of constant injuries. Hmmm.... (kidding, I kid, I'm a kidder..)

[schuey100]

Of course there are PEDs in F1, in the same way they exist in every sport. The type might differ from one sport to the next but PEDs are rife everywhere. With regards to F1 specifically, I'd imagine drivers would take much the same that fighter pilots would, cognitive enhancing drugs, nootropics etc. Provigil is probably a good example.

I would imagine they would also benefit from various compounds for weight control and body composition, from T3, Clen and Ephedrine to perhaps even Test. Who knows, maybe some would use Anavar and orals in the off season.

And anyone who says F1 drivers wouldn't benefit from PEDs has clearly never used them, has no idea of what is available or is blinded for some reason. If fighter pilots benefit from hem I'd imagine F1 drivers might too.

Edited by schuey100, 13 August 2013 - 23:22.

[CSquared]

Blackmore, on Aug 12 2013, 07:25, said:

Which makes us wonder about Senna's alleged cocaine use... looking at the way he touched his nose and his mannerisms/characteristics, it is a dead give-away to me personally.

I've never heard of any allegation of Senna using cocaine, but . . .

Rubens Hakkamacher, on Aug 13 2013, 14:23, said:

Cocaine makes people impatient, loud and chatty.

. . . is also what I've noticed on the very unfortunate occasions when I've been around people on cocaine. Pretty much the opposite of Senna (and highly irritating, as well). I call this allegation BS.

If a driver needed a concentration boost for a two-hour race or even to stay awake and alert during an endurance race, they'd use a drug called "caffeine," possibly delivered by means of what's known on the street as a "Red Bull." There's no drug you can take to take 0.5 sec off your lap time or even 5 secs off your total race time. Unlike cycling and baseball, the risk/reward ratio for doping in racing is so high it makes no sense at all.

[gm914]

Eddie Irvine was always a bit of a pill.

That's all I've got.

[Mauseri]

Rubens Hakkamacher, on Aug 14 2013, 01:23, said:

It seemed like at one time MotoGp riders looked like a bunch of heroin addicts, super gaunt, sunken eyes, pale... ?

They behave weirdly on the grid, walk weirdly, talk weirdly.. or maybe the dangerous competition and adrenaline just puts them on an extreme high?

[jonpollak]

Jp

[pingu666]

in aj allendingers case, didnt it turn out to be adderall? he was in a poor mental state with stress etc when he made that mistake, he was also unlucky to get randomly drawn for a pee test or whatever. but something similer could lead people to take some types of drugs as a coping mechanism for their situation, which is just like everyday people really.

nascar often tests crew members and get positives, rarely know what type of drug they get detected with tho.

[loki]

Chubby_Deuce, on Aug 12 2013, 08:58, said:

What happened to the report that they are all high out of their minds on cocaine? That one was a lot more fun and equally true.

They didn't take enough tacrine and forgot about it.

[loki]

pingu666, on Aug 14 2013, 04:14, said:

in aj allendingers case, didnt it turn out to be adderall? he was in a poor mental state with stress etc when he made that mistake, he was also unlucky to get randomly drawn for a pee test or whatever. but something similer could lead people to take some types of drugs as a coping mechanism for their situation, which is just like everyday people really.

nascar often tests crew members and get positives, rarely know what type of drug they get detected with tho.

Dinger tested positive for Adderall. Crew tests are common and routine in all the NASCAR touring series. The sanction doesn't release the type of drug after the Mayfield debacle but they do inform the person tested. If you are prescribed by your doctor something like Adderall or beta blockers and the sanction knows and approves of the dose then it's OK. But they have to know well in advance and agree with your doc that you medically need the prescription.

[sergeym]

BRG, on Aug 14 2013, 00:12, said:

No, try reading my post again. What is sad is the insistence of many here that 'It could never happen in our sport, we are special and different'. It is happening everywhere else both in sport and in other avenues of life. If F1 saw even the smallest edge to be gained, they would be doping like no tomorrow. THis is a sport with nutritionists and medical types supervising drivers' every movement. They might not even know that they were being given something in thier food or their rehydration fluids. Which is what was happening in cycling.

I think most people simply believe that there is little benefit in using drugs in motorsport compared to cycling and other sports.

[BrawnGeePee]

camberley, on Aug 12 2013, 15:17, said:

"For many years," he said, "drivers have used tacrine, a product used in the treatment of diseases such as Alzheimer's, in order to remember the circuits more easily."

Logic speaks: If F1 or any professional drivers have alzheimer's, then they should not be fit to be a professional driver, and i mean even amateurs only need a lap or two to EASILY remember a circuit
The reasoning behind of this so-called "expert" is ridiculous that i should give it a sarcastic applause
...or does this mean these anti-doping "experts" are simply rubber-stamping(by due bribery) those drivers with alzheimer's so that they become professionally fit? It seems it's more like to describe how flawed these anti-dopers are rather than how much cheat the drivers are~

Edited by BrawnGeePee, 14 August 2013 - 06:33.

[andrewr]

pRy, on Aug 13 2013, 03:22, said:

But is there really a scenario where a struggling driver could take an illegal substance and suddenly change his career prospects?...

I don't think it's so much about dramatic gains in form as it is about getting a "slight edge". One scenario where this might be relevant is where two teammates are close and trying to get an edge over the other one because there is a Red Bull seat up for grabs next year. (No way am I implying anything about Ricciardo or Vergne here )

[SpamJet]

BRG, on Aug 13 2013, 09:12, said:

They might not even know that they were being given something in thier food or their rehydration fluids. Which is what was happening in cycling.

I didn't realise doping technology was so advanced where Lance Armstrong got his blood transfusions in his food.

[Talisman]

BRG, on Aug 13 2013, 18:12, said:

No, try reading my post again. What is sad is the insistence of many here that 'It could never happen in our sport, we are special and different'. It is happening everywhere else both in sport and in other avenues of life. If F1 saw even the smallest edge to be gained, they would be doping like no tomorrow. THis is a sport with nutritionists and medical types supervising drivers' every movement. They might not even know that they were being given something in thier food or their rehydration fluids. Which is what was happening in cycling.

But F1 is certainly different from sports such as cycling.

On this thread people refer to drugs that improve cognition/perception/concentration as possible ones that could be used in F1. These drugs by definition are of limited effect, may alter perceptions in a non-beneficial way (altering spatial awareness, risk assessment) and most importantly have to be within the system at the time of the race, ie would be easily identified during the race weekend.

These are different from the type of drugs that would be beneficial in stamina or power based sports which would be used over the long term during training before being tapered off in the buildup to a race so that they are not found on events based tests.

Other people have mentioned the use of stimulants such as amphetamines etc. These are not that useful for someone who is in peak physical condition and non-fatigued although they still have an effect. They do make a significant difference to people who are heavily fatigued and are not at their optimum, hence their use for airmen and soldiers not to improve peak performance but to keep them fighting way beyond the point of exhaustion. This isn't the case in F1.

[FLB]

Rubens Hakkamacher, on Aug 13 2013, 15:23, said:

Cocaine makes people impatient, loud and chatty. I think Grosjean drives like someone on cocaine... and he's super skinny... hmmm.... (kidding, I kid)


I don't see anything that affects perception being something an F1 driver would want.

Steroids are different; Vettel's rabid aggressiveness might fit that bill. Things like EPO would be good I would think, things that help drivers physically recover better.


It seemed like at one time MotoGp riders looked like a bunch of heroin addicts, super gaunt, sunken eyes, pale... ? Guys who need to be as light as possible, while at the same time living with the pain of constant injuries. Hmmm.... (kidding, I kid, I'm a kidder..)

Historical fact: Achille Varzi had a major problem with morphine. He was constantly in pain and had problems sleeping, so his mistress suggested he try it.

[BRG]

sergeym, on Aug 14 2013, 07:18, said:

I think most people simply believe that there is little benefit in using drugs in motorsport compared to cycling and other sports.

And I think that that may be wishful thinking by racing fans with their heads in the sand. I doubt anyone here really knows enough about all the potential sorts of doping to be able to make such a judgement based on actual evidence. I certainly don't, but I do see that the chances of motorsport being the sole professional sporting area where doping isn't happening as being rather slim.

SpamJet, on Aug 14 2013, 11:59, said:

I didn't realise doping technology was so advanced where Lance Armstrong got his blood transfusions in his food.

Lance was just the sacrificial goat that cycling offered up to try to cleanse itself. Many of the very many hundreds or more other cyclists who routinely used banned substances were given them by their team medicos. Some claim that they were unwilling victims forced into it by their teams or even did not know they had been dosed.

[Tonka]

BRG, on Aug 14 2013, 20:56, said:

Lance was just the sacrificial goat that cycling offered up to try to cleanse itself. Many of the very many hundreds or more other cyclists who routinely used banned substances were given them by their team medicos. Some claim that they were unwilling victims forced into it by their teams or even did not know they had been dosed.

Claptrap. Armstong got away with doping for many years. He was never tested properly and when he was, money changed hands and the results of the positive test were lost. Numerous people involved with Armstrong had told of his drug taking whilst he was riding. He forced them to shut up. He forced members of his own team to take drugs and those who would not, were dumped. Armstrong had enough money to buy the best drugs available. Other teams didn't - which led to many riders dying from misuse of poorly made drugs or lack of knowledge of how to use them.

Armstrong was finally undone by a former member of his team 'telling all' in a book. If that book hadn't been written, Armstrong may well have got away with his doping forever. At no time was he pursued by the UCI, they preferred to keep their heads in the sand. Armstrong is a bastard. He killed the careers of many better cyclists and ruined the business of the first and only American winner of the Tour de France, Greg LeMond.

As for drug use in motorsport. The only worthwhile drugs would enable drivers to increase their stamina. There are many drivers who can lap quickly, but very few who can race lap after lap at great speed. They train - a lot - to achieve the level of stamina required. The kind of drugs that Armstong was taking enabled him to train longer and harder than other riders. He only needed to be 1 or 2% better than the rest to win and keep on winning. That's exacly the same as a F1 driver would need to see other drivers off towards the end of a race.