147 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

The Clisby V6 has not been mentioned, was mooted for F1 but did not happen. It was however raced in an Elfin 600.

It is or was in the Sporting Club of SA clubrooms. 

There is I think a thread on here somewhere about it.

[2F-001]

Prompted by a discussion elsewhere yesterday - and leaving aside the Lion, which i don’t believe was ever built - I think the real biscuit-taker was already mentioned back on page 1, by bradbury west…

 

The (in)glorious Guidobaldi: a 1.5 litre, twin-supercharged, air-cooled 2-stroke 8-cylinder radial engine laying flat… and that was maybe not the strangest thing about the car…

[WonderWoman61]

The Heidegger turbo would have been interesting.

[Henri Greuter]

The Heidegger turbo would have been interesting.

 

 

Sais to have been an engine man's dream but F1 designer's nightmare  concept.

 

Wished to see pictures of it to see if true.

[WonderWoman61]

Sais to have been an engine man's dream but F1 designer's nightmare  concept.
 
Wished to see pictures of it to see if true.

https://ehfcv.com/in...rged-f1-engine/

[Henri Greuter]

https://ehfcv.com/in...rged-f1-engine/

 

 

Thanks,

 

the speaker was indeed right....

[WonderWoman61]

Thanks,
 
the speaker was indeed right....

You're welcome.

[WonderWoman61]

https://forums.autos...o-f1-early-80s/

[marksixman]

My late father knew the late Paul Emery (of Emeryson cars fame) a little, and I recall being introduced to him at a London Motor Show in the early 1960's.  At the time his all-consuming passion was his plan for a 4WD F1 car into which he aimed to plant a flat-eight 2-stroke engine, utilising two Hillman Imp blocks with twin (geared) crankshafts.

 

I have no idea if it ever got beyond the drawing board, or even if there was ever a drawing board !

 

Oh, nearly forgot to mention the turbocharger !!!

Edited by marksixman, 05 October 2022 - 16:40.

[WonderWoman61]

The Alfa Romeo straight-4 intended for Ligier in 1987 certainly must have had some quirks about it that Rene Arnoux found off-putting.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by marksixman
.....Oh, nearly forgot to mention the turbocharger!

Possibly (probably... or even necessarily) supercharged and also turbocharged, like the Detroit diesels.

[bradbury west]

Prompted by a discussion elsewhere yesterday - and leaving aside the Lion, which i don’t believe was ever built - I think the real biscuit-taker was already mentioned back on page 1, by bradbury west…

 

The (in)glorious Guidobaldi: a 1.5 litre, twin-supercharged, air-cooled 2-stroke 8-cylinder radial engine laying flat… and that was maybe not the strangest thing about the car…

The Guidobaldi has now been restored, a few years ago,  into full running order, and with a new  period style body, funded by a French 747 pilot.  Sadly it has only one supercharger as he could not source another.  The car was on display at the Lotto funded museum at Mougins, north of Nice for some years after Monsieur Guidobaldi’s demise. The museum owner told me that the family showed no interest at the rime, and  loaned/ gifted  to the museum. Guidobaldi designed  and built the engine himself, as he did the gearbox and all bar the blowers, possibly Bugatti in origin.  He had already designed and built a ten cylinder radial engine pre war for boat use, again displayed at Mougins. The race car was, apparently, tested at various times around the mountain roads to the north of Nice,#o,it did work, although it was the manner of its designed working, or not, which made him shelve the project.

As an  aside, Monsieur Guidobaldi was an avid inventor, with a host of patents applied for, including one device in 1970 intended to reduce exhaust pollutant emissions.   I read some years ago, uncorroborated, the he had been  a mechanic for racer Benoist Falchetto in the early 1930s, and may have been involved in the Isadora Duncan incident car.  Lots of maybes…..
Apologies for going off thread a bit, but I do admire him.

 

Turning to Paul Emery, I think it was back in 1964 ish that he did some design work with an ex Ford turbo designer. Ford were at that time  heavily involved with their  turbo 360 engine range.  I will try and re contact an ex Emery man I knew some years  ago to see if he recalls anything, as it was always a small operation, although his engineering facilities were always basic.   By that time he was in his own , having driven out his father and stepbrother Peter. Emery was not the first to consider using  two four pot Rootes engines ,  to make a flat eight, but the  earlier inventor had used a bespoke common crank.

Roger Lund

 

 

Edit. Not an F1 engine, so not in scope here, but the Alfa Romeo  Tipo A  U12 cylinder engine always appealed to me. Engineers will correct or clarify the exact terminology, no doubt.

 

Edited to  U12. 

Edited by bradbury west, 06 October 2022 - 10:26.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Roger, quite a design...

 

But there was a 'quirk' in the car, as I recall, but the fact that it had contra-rotating cranks meant it applied torque reaction to the rear axle which led to mistaken ideas being applied in the Tipo B.

 

Or I think so, anyway.

[Roger Clark]

The Tipo A Alfa was a 12-cylinder, essentially two 6C engines. Alfa were not alone in trying this concept; Bugatti (types 45 and 47) and Maserati (V4 and V5) being the most notable. A few years later Alfa tried again with the 316.

I don’t know what mistaken ideas on the Tipo B Ray is referring to. It was one of the most successful Grand Prix cars of all time.

[Arjan de Roos]

Discussed earlier on TNF ages ago: Ferrari Gilera air-cooled straight eight 1,5 litre transverse mounted.

 © Sergio Baratto

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 06 October 2022 - 08:56.

[Arjan de Roos]

Which engine concept can be considered the quirkiest, most absurd ones ? 

 

My personal favorite would be 2,5 litre in line twin cylinder Ferrari engine designed by Lampredi in 1955.

How could they expect that one to work ?

A 90 deg V twin at least would have been far less vibratory and.

 

Any other other follies of similar magnitude ?

 

Rudolf

 

This was to be called the 252 F1 (2,5 litre, 2 in-line). It was build and tested, and as stated found impracticality developed 160 BHP at 5200 rpm.

 

 

 

 

Well, this Ferrari concept from 1994 would have been pretty wild, if it had seen the light of day (perhaps it did?).

 

 

.....

 

PJGD

You mean the F134 or F135? Both have been built and tested. The F134 was a three cylinder 1,5 litre supercharged, while the F135 was a very short V6 4.6 litre.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 06 October 2022 - 09:17.

[Sterzo]

The Tipo A Alfa was a 12-cylinder, essentially two 6C engines. Alfa were not alone in trying this concept; Bugatti (types 45 and 47) and Maserati (V4 and V5) being the most notable. A few years later Alfa tried again with the 316.

I don’t know what mistaken ideas on the Tipo B Ray is referring to. It was one of the most successful Grand Prix cars of all time.

Twin propshafts, perhaps?

[bradbury west]

Many thanks for the extra cylinders, Roger. I should be aware of the engine base as Alan Cox was kind enough to supply me with a copy of the Tipo A book when I raised a query about it years ago, and, of course, I have the Angela Cherrett  books. I should have checked. Other things on my mind, perhaps, so I was no doubt thinking about the U8 Matra Simca engine which they tried as a road car in their Ranchero. The other one which always comes from the dark corners of my mind is the Lockhart Stutz U16.

RL.

[Ray Bell]

Roger, it still had good things going for it, but I'd imagine it wasn't up to Jano's expectations...

 

I believe the contra-rotating driveshafts and opposing pinion dispositions of the Tipo A led to some traction benefits. This was not the case with the Tipo B as both shafts turned the same direction.

 

We've had this discussion, but you need good diagrams and more to understand fully:

 

https://forums.autos...-b/#entry741155

[D-Type]

How about the US Midget engine that was half a Chevrolet V8 .  Apparently the block was split longitudinally and it used the same crankshaft and crankcase as the V8 - If I've correctly understood the description I read.

[10kDA]

How about the US Midget engine that was half a Chevrolet V8 .  Apparently the block was split longitudinally and it used the same crankshaft and crankcase as the V8 - If I've correctly understood the description I read.

For Midgets but not F1. It's likely the Sesco you're referring to. They were built in my hometown. I think they started off with a 327 and machined off one bank, then mounted an aluminum "sort-of " partial crankcase over the opening. The 327 heads flowed well and thus Sesco took advantage of all the development that had gone into SBC heads. Later they made a V4 from half a SBC - but this time the sideways half! They made the inline fours into the 80s as I recall. That engine drove out the Offenhauser 110 midget engines due to costs. About 20 years ago they did the same thing to a Mopar sprint car engine block, machining off one bank to get it down to the legal displacement for Midgets. That one had the intake on the outside of the former "V" and exhaust into what would have been the middle of the V if there had been a middle, that is. They may still be producing that engine.

[marksixman]

Discussed earlier on TNF ages ago: Ferrari Gilera air-cooled straight eight 1,5 litre transverse mounted.

 © Sergio Baratto

Like your post Arjan  (and beautifully drawn), but can't believe the Old Man would ever have sanctioned a Ferrari without a Ferrari heart !

[WonderWoman61]

There must have been something extra special about the engine in the Jaguar XK120 to inspire Clemente Biondetti to use it to build his own car to enter F1 with.

[D-Type]

There must have been something extra special about the engine in the Jaguar XK120 to inspire Clemente Biondetti to use it to build his own car to enter F1 with.

It was available!  
His car was a "one-and-a-half-seater" suitable for running in sports car races with wings and lights and as a racing car stripped down.

[WonderWoman61]

It was available!  
His car was a "one-and-a-half-seater" suitable for running in sports car races with wings and lights and as a racing car stripped down.

Well I guessed that but it must have been more than just that if Biondetti fell in love with the engine that much.

[Tom Glowacki]

For Midgets but not F1. It's likely the Sesco you're referring to. They were built in my hometown. I think they started off with a 327 and machined off one bank, then mounted an aluminum "sort-of " partial crankcase over the opening. The 327 heads flowed well and thus Sesco took advantage of all the development that had gone into SBC heads. Later they made a V4 from half a SBC - but this time the sideways half! They made the inline fours into the 80s as I recall. That engine drove out the Offenhauser 110 midget engines due to costs. About 20 years ago they did the same thing to a Mopar sprint car engine block, machining off one bank to get it down to the legal displacement for Midgets. That one had the intake on the outside of the former "V" and exhaust into what would have been the middle of the V if there had been a middle, that is. They may still be producing that engine.

 

After that, Sesco went in the other direction, instead of using half of one engine, he used halves of two engines.  The first was a V-8 engine based on the top end of two Kawasaki 1000cc 4-cylinder motorcycle engines with a custom-designed bottom end, which produced 256-horsepower at 8,500 rpm.  The second was the Suzuki Hayabusa V-8 engine, similar to the Kawasaki V-8; it utilizes two 4-cylinder top ends , mounted on a custom-built crankcase.  The Hayabusa could turn about 11,000 rpm. 

d

[WonderWoman61]

The Ferrari 2-cylinder, the Motori Moderni/Subaru flat 12, or even the Indy Ford engine reduced to 3-litres might be a candidate.
call .

Wonder what Subaru's take on the V12 would have been like?

[Henri Greuter]

Wonder what Subaru's take on the V12 would have been like?

 

With their obsession on boxers in their production cars I have the feeling they were seeing the flat archtecture of the engine as a link they could identify themselves with.

 

A question I always have had about that Subaru engine: Given the Motori Moderni origins of that engine and the fact that Carl Chiti was the main man behind Motori Moderni but back the past also had been the man behid the Alfa Flat 12 engine of the 70s: How much of the Motori Moderni/Subaru Flat12 could be traced back to the Alfa Flat12 ?

[WonderWoman61]

With their obsession on boxers in their production cars I have the feeling they were seeing the flat archtecture of the engine as a link they could identify themselves with.
 
A question I always have had about that Subaru engine: Given the Motori Moderni origins of that engine and the fact that Carl Chiti was the main man behind Motori Moderni but back the past also had been the man behid the Alfa Flat 12 engine of the 70s: How much of the Motori Moderni/Subaru Flat12 could be traced back to the Alfa Flat12 ?

Motori Moderni/Subaru were intending to build a V12 engine for Coloni to use in the 1991 Season until the partnership fell apart.

[Henri Greuter]

Motori Moderni/Subaru were intending to build a V12 engine for Coloni to use in the 1991 Season until the partnership fell apart.

 

 

OK, in all honesty, I might have read something about that but I think it's more likely that I have never been aware of that.

 

Anyway, that has saved Subaru a lot of money. Because with the success of Motori Moderni's turbo V6 in mind as yardstick of to be expected prerformance....

 

Turbocharged V6's were succesful in F1 but the MM example wasn't (never scored a point but maybe that had also something to do with the level of performance by the Minardi chassis of that time)

Post 1988 V12's as a whole were only moderately succesful (Most 3.5 liter years "12's" were massive disasters and embarassments) so what a MM V12 would have been? (Apart from possibly be heavily inspired on the Alfa V12 of the 1979-1973 era ????)

[Charlieman]

The Ferrari two cylinder GP engine? Does anyone have experience of a 2.5 litre twin, whatever layout? 

[WonderWoman61]

OK, in all honesty, I might have read something about that but I think it's more likely that I have never been aware of that.
 
Anyway, that has saved Subaru a lot of money. Because with the success of Motori Moderni's turbo V6 in mind as yardstick of to be expected prerformance....
 
Turbocharged V6's were succesful in F1 but the MM example wasn't (never scored a point but maybe that had also something to do with the level of performance by the Minardi chassis of that time)
Post 1988 V12's as a whole were only moderately succesful (Most 3.5 liter years "12's" were massive disasters and embarassments) so what a MM V12 would have been? (Apart from possibly be heavily inspired on the Alfa V12 of the 1979-1973 era ????)

Don't forget the brief alliance with AGS in 1986.

[Henri Greuter]

Don't forget the brief alliance with AGS in 1986.

 

 

Thanks for correcting me. I was remembering something about a scond user but not sure so didn't bother. But I should have looked it up. Thanks.  

[WonderWoman61]

OK, in all honesty, I might have read something about that but I think it's more likely that I have never been aware of that.
 
Anyway, that has saved Subaru a lot of money. Because with the success of Motori Moderni's turbo V6 in mind as yardstick of to be expected prerformance....
 
Turbocharged V6's were succesful in F1 but the MM example wasn't (never scored a point but maybe that had also something to do with the level of performance by the Minardi chassis of that time)
Post 1988 V12's as a whole were only moderately succesful (Most 3.5 liter years "12's" were massive disasters and embarassments) so what a MM V12 would have been? (Apart from possibly be heavily inspired on the Alfa V12 of the 1979-1973 era ????)

[WonderWoman61]

Thanks for correcting me. I was remembering something about a scond user but not sure so didn't bother. But I should have looked it up. Thanks.

You're welcome

[10kDA]

The Ferrari two cylinder GP engine? Does anyone have experience of a 2.5 litre twin, whatever layout? 

Harley Davidson is selling an over-the-counter "Screaming Eagle" 131 cubic inch/2150cc crate engine now. Pretty close to 2.5L, and probably more reliable than the numerous much bigger "look-at me" bragging-rights exercises in the HD world. As for experiencing the Sceeaming Eagle, I think I'll pass.

[WonderWoman61]

Wouldn't necessarily say it was quirky but here's an idea of how the proposed PURE turbo-hybrid engine would have looked.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 10 October 2022 - 15:34.

[WonderWoman61]

Secret Volkswagen V8 project in the 1980s.
https://www.motorspo...980s-f1-project

[WonderWoman61]

The Allison 250 turbine engine intended for the stillborn Lion GP project.

https://www.unracedf...wheeler-f1-car/

Edited by WonderWoman61, 28 October 2022 - 13:03.

[10kDA]

The Allison 250 turbine engine intended for the stillborn Lion GP project.

https://www.unracedf...wheeler-f1-car/

 

Note to sponsors/investors - You know it's going to be an uphill slog when a turbine engine is the most conventional aspect of your project... LOL

[WonderWoman61]

Note to sponsors/investors - You know it's going to be an uphill slog when a turbine engine is the most conventional aspect of your project... LOL

David Cox sure had some quirky ideas to say the least.

[WonderWoman61]

Secret Volkswagen V8 project in the 1980s.
https://www.motorspo...980s-f1-project

An impression of how said F1 VW V8 engine would have looked. - https://www.motorspo...68x606.jpg.webp

[WonderWoman61]

Didn't Franco Rocchi originally intend to design a W18 engine?

[john aston]

Harley Davidson is selling an over-the-counter "Screaming Eagle" 131 cubic inch/2150cc crate engine now. Pretty close to 2.5L, and probably more reliable than the numerous much bigger "look-at me" bragging-rights exercises in the HD world. As for experiencing the Sceeaming Eagle, I think I'll pass.

Does it come with a Confederate flag and a MAGA hat ? 

[Ray Bell]

Probably requires Republican membership to qualify to buy one...

 

And "I support Trump" stickers are included.

[10kDA]

Does it come with a Confederate flag and a MAGA hat ? 

 

 

Probably requires Republican membership to qualify to buy one...

 

And "I support Trump" stickers are included.

What would make someone see such a connection? Contrary to news reports, many US citizens do not place politics at the top of their awareness. Those that do typically seem to suffer some level of misery for doing so. Same as everywhere else.   

[Sterzo]

^ And of course the main London dealer for Harleys is in The King's Road, hardly traditional red-neck territory.

[WonderWoman61]

Conspiracy theories seem to be taking over this thread.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 10 April 2023 - 09:55.