304 replies to this topic

[TomNokoe]

There isn't a thread on it so, ta-da!

FIA and teams meeting to discuss a few small tweaks to qualifying

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/112434

I'm glad, personally. I hope they don't do to far with it, though. The extra set of tyres for Q3 runners is worthwhile, but I think the "start your race on your Q2 tyres" should be tweaked to "unless you set a lap within 107% in Q3". Some teams try to get through Q2 on used tyres sometimes, and although the "extra set of tyres for Q3" rule would neutralise this in terms of saving tyres, what happens if you have a technical problem in Q3?

Anyway, I'm glad the FIA are looking at it.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I was slighly worried when I saw the headline, but fortunately it's just a incorrect choice of words.

[Timstr11]

I was slighly worried when I saw the headline, but fortunately it's just a incorrect choice of words.

Agree. The headline calling it a ''shake up'' is sensationalist.

They're trying to improve the current format.

[SenorSjon]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

[BillyWhizz]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

OK, yes.

 

New tyres, but start on the same compound you quallied on.

[SenorSjon]

Why?

[mlsnoopy]

The only changes that Q needs is that they should make all the laps count. If your q1 lap is good enough for pole than it's good enough for pole.

[froggy22]

This still worries me. It sounds like instead of just getting rid of the obvious rule, they want to create a new rule as well to complicate things again.

[Frank Tuesday]

If you want them to run, just enforce a 107% rule for Q3.  If you don't set a time within 107% of the pole lap, you start from the back of the grid. 

[R3B3L]

I like the idea of qualifying tires, low fuel and just pure lap time, which car is fastest over a single lap, then the race can play out from there.....

[FerrariV12]

This still worries me. It sounds like instead of just getting rid of the obvious rule, they want to create a new rule as well to complicate things again.

 

Yep that was my first thought too. Just ditch the start-on-the-tyres-you-qualified-on rule. It's added nothing to the spectacle, the only time this sort of tying in qualifying to the start of the race made even remote sense was with the fuel loads and the one lap qualifying in 2003, since they returned to multi-lap qualifying of a sort in 2006 it should have been ditched then, and they even passed up the most obvious opportunity (when they banned refuelling in 2010) and brought in this tyre thing.

[Kvothe]

I'm actually against any form of change, because I enjoy the strategic options this gives teams. The real issue is that the tyres are (or were) so crap that it was in some circumstances it was actually more worthwhile to sit out of q3 and lose track position rather than that start as far up the grip as the car was capable off. Just like the introduction of DRS, this is just another example of the FIA being unable or unwilling to address the root cause of the issue, choosing instead to paper over the cracks with even more regulations that stifle the team's freedom and autonomy and all in the name of 'excitement'.

[KWSN - DSM]

They keep 'fixing' stuff they broke by not thinking their 'fixes' through. I expect that they will now build a solution, which will somehow need a fix soon, but which will be kicked down the line and remain for another 2 - 3 season, just like the not running in Q3 which is not a new issue.

 

[Nonesuch]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

 

Agreed!    And while we're at it they might as well ditch Q1 too. It takes way too long, usually has the exact same result, and it makes the lacklustre Q2 even more boring. I can't think of any good reason not to combine Q1 and Q2 into one.

 

Better yet, a single lap qualifying. Gives us a chance to actually see the qualifying rather than some nondescript overview shot of the start-finish straight. You're usually better off watching the Live Timing than the TV coverage.

 

Let's make the most of this opportunity by also getting rid of the shots of the irrelevant people who tend to bunch up in the garages. Ban any director who cuts away from on-track action to show us RandomActor#1 or BlondeGirl#2.

Edited by Nonesuch, 06 February 2014 - 14:58.

[maverick69]

I'd like to see a "Super-pole" shoot out for the last 10 drivers on proper sticky qualy tyres as Q3. Then they start the race on their Q2 tyres..... Minus one set.

Edited by maverick69, 06 February 2014 - 14:53.

[Cacarella]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

 

The changes would need unanimous support from the teams at this stage and I doubt any team that expects to qualify in Q2 would agree to this. 

[Rinehart]

If it has to be a small change - just give the cars that qualify for the top 10 shootout an extra set of tyres for Q3 and let ALL CARS start with whatever tyres they want. And stop unnecessarily over-complicating everything, FIA.

 

Honestly the rule that makes the top 10 start with Q3 tyres is a joke. It stops them committing to or in some cases participating in Q3 at all, but the worst part is that it just mandates and even more cautious opening stint of the race. It came from an idea that it would keep the field spread closer, but Pirelli and fuel flow rules have that issue covered...

 

If they have the balls for a bigger change, then how about a continuous 60 minute open session with 2 sets of qualifying tyres 1 prime 1 option where the slowest 5 get relegated every 15 minutes setting the grid in that order. I think there would be more poker and action this way. But more importantly I think it is a far more elegant way of achieving what they're trying to achieve now - because you can explain it to your mother-in-law in 5 seconds rather than 5 minutes: "Its a fastest lap, elimination contest. Slowest 5 drop out every 15 minutes". Simple.

[Rinehart]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

Unless there is more too it....

 

If you get into Q3 you are going to have to take more life out of one or two sets of tyres than anyone who didn't make it that far. That is going to be a bigger disadvantage at some point of the race, than potentially gaining only 1 place on the grid would offset. I think the simplest answer is even simpler. Of the tyre allocation, allot 1 set of options and primes to all cars for Q use only. 

[SpaMaster]

Make the Q3 qualifiers start with their Q2 tyres?   Talk about stretching it too far..

[caccamolle]

ok Great !  lets add to the revolution with another revolution ?!?!?

 

I truly hope that any change will be minor and in no way interfere with the teams' efforts to manage the current regulation changes.

 

The teams have enough challenges like they have not had in quite some years. Wtf, some people are simply stupid proposing things like "qualy tires" or "extended Q3".  OMG.

 

NOte, I am not saying whether I think, as a spectator, that changes are needed, I am not sure about that, don't know really and I am actually more concerned with race regulations (DRS bs, double points bs and stuff like that).  However I am certain it would be idiotic to make any material change to qualy format this season.

Edited by caccamolle, 06 February 2014 - 16:00.

[dau]

The only changes that Q needs is that they should make all the laps count. If your q1 lap is good enough for pole than it's good enough for pole.

In normal conditions, no Q1 lap will ever be good enough for pole. And in chaotic conditions, this would make qualifying a total lottery which could see the slowest car on pole just because it was the only one that got a lap in dry conditions in.

Edited by dau, 06 February 2014 - 16:04.

[caccamolle]

I'd like to see a "Super-pole" shoot out for the last 10 drivers on proper sticky qualy tyres as Q3. Then they start the race on their Q2 tyres..... Minus one set.

 eheh same here,  but no this year !  F1 needs to ensure teams find some stability with the new PU and stuff coming this season.

[button_sw]

Bring back single lap qualifying, I used to love the pressure on the drivers to nail it with the world watching!

 

You could also see every single qualifying lap from every driver, great for the smaller teams and great for the sponsors.

 

Reverse order from how they finished the previous race!

[dau]

Bring back single lap qualifying, I used to love the pressure on the drivers to nail it with the world watching!

 

You could also see every single qualifying lap from every driver, great for the smaller teams and great for the sponsors.

 

Reverse order from how they finished the previous race!

Yea, we had that in the second half of 2005. Was so popular that it didn't even get a full season as the knockout format was introduced for 2006.

[Tourgott]

Personally I liked the 12 laps in 60 minutes Qualifying most. They should bring this back, give the teams a bunch of tires and let everyone do whatever they think is the best strategy for the race.

[Mrluke]

Single lap shootout for top 10 drivers with sticky tyres.

 

YES PLEASE!

 

Coverage is definitely lacking now that we cant follow each driver to see how they perform against the current best.

 

Order of running for Q3 is the order of the top 10 for Q2. This should make for a fascinating end to qualy. If you reverse the order then youll likely find that the first lap is pole and the next 9 are slower.

[0Fritz]

Personally I liked the 12 laps in 60 minutes Qualifying most. They should bring this back, give the teams a bunch of tires and let everyone do whatever they think is the best strategy for the race.

 

Indeed.   To hell with these current circus rules. The directors still mostly miss the pole mans lap anyway, they have plenty of telemetry tools to keep up who is going for it and the lower teams get a lot of tv-focus in the early 20 minutes of a session.

[Clatter]

Bring back single lap qualifying, I used to love the pressure on the drivers to nail it with the world watching!

 

You could also see every single qualifying lap from every driver, great for the smaller teams and great for the sponsors.

 

Reverse order from how they finished the previous race!

No way. This was just about acceptable to watch if your in front of the TV, but awful if you have spent the money and were trackside. 

[Fonzey]

I'd love to see the current format with a Pirelli "Qualifying Compound" instead.

 

Make them use race tyres in Q1 and Q2, with the top 10 using "Quali Compound". It only has to last two flying laps, so maybe even Pirelli can mange the requirements.

[Fastcake]

Just ditch the race on Q tire rule and be done with it. Some solutions are so simple you just know F1 would never come up with it.

 

Agreed. It's the African mammal in the room, just let them pick the tyres for the race. I'm not opposed to extra qualifying tyres, but those in Q3 already have the advantage of starting further up the grid.

 

If they have the balls for a bigger change, then how about a continuous 60 minute open session with 2 sets of qualifying tyres 1 prime 1 option where the slowest 5 get relegated every 15 minutes setting the grid in that order. I think there would be more poker and action this way. But more importantly I think it is a far more elegant way of achieving what they're trying to achieve now - because you can explain it to your mother-in-law in 5 seconds rather than 5 minutes: "Its a fastest lap, elimination contest. Slowest 5 drop out every 15 minutes". Simple.

 

They'll just appear for a lap before the cut-off and go back in again. I doubt you'll see much more action.

[Hans V]

I never understood what was wrong with and why they ditched the old 12 laps in 60 minutes format. OK, there usually wasn't much action the first thirty or forty minutes. That could easily have been dealt with by having to post a time in each twenty-minute segment in order to qualify. The last  fem-six minutes used to be electric! I want to see the fastest race cars going balls out, not saving tyres and fuel.

 

The strategy of the Strategy Group seems to be to overcomplicate everything in F1.

Edited by Hans V, 06 February 2014 - 18:14.

[charly0418]

Seems like people really miss watching the Minardis run by themselves for 30 minutes

[FerrariV12]

Personally I liked the 12 laps in 60 minutes Qualifying most. They should bring this back, give the teams a bunch of tires and let everyone do whatever they think is the best strategy for the race.

 

This was the system I grew up watching and I enjoyed it too. The main argument against this was that with limited laps, unless it was in changeable conditions then there was no incentive for teams to run early, waiting until the track was rubbered in and so on, leading to the first half hour being fairly quiet, but the whole drama of a quiet beginning steadily building up to one mad dash at the end provided its own charm.

 

Then again I think by itself the knockout system was a very logical and elegant solution to the problem - meaning we get both multiple cars out at once, and action for the bulk of the hour with no option to sit out the first half hour if you're going for a good starting position - and to my mind is one of the least offensive "gimmicks" (if you can even call it one) introduced by F1 in the last decade. The problem was that they then tried to apply the one-lap ideas of race fuel (with that awkward credits system) and then substituting that for tyres when refuelling was banned.

 

I and people like me are often falsely accused of blind nostalgia when saying things were better in the 80s, 90s, 00s, whatever. My preference for the one hour 12 lap free for all qualifying is probably the one time that is true.

[joshb]

Agree with those who say just get rid of the 'start on your Q2 tyre' bit... there's always a but with these qualifying rules.

[Frank Tuesday]

No way. This was just about acceptable to watch if your in front of the TV, but awful if you have spent the money and were trackside. 

My complaint is that it doesn't give everyone equal opportunity on equal track.  If the conditions of the track change, certain people would be favored on account of their allotted time.  If it rains 17 minutes into the session, and then dries out.  The driver whose hot lap falls immediately after that suffers the most.  With everyone going simultaneously, everyone has the opportunity to be on their hot lap at 15 minutes into the session.  If not, it's your own fault.  

[0Fritz]

I never understood what was wrong with and why they ditched the old 12 laps in 60 minutes format. OK, there usually wasn't much action the first thirty or forty minutes. That could easily have been dealt with by having to post a time in each twenty-minute segment in order to qualify. The last  fem-six minutes used to be electric! I want to see the fastest race cars going balls out, not saving tyres and fuel.

 

The strategy of the Strategy Group seems to be to overcomplicate everything in F1.

 

Not me. Its not a damn circus, where the best horses need to dance 3 times.

 

Get out, one stonker lap that nobody can touch, and thats it. Im fine with that.

 

Currently the teams are so close that i doubt it would stay with one lap anyway, but the whole manufactured 3 sessions is standing me back. Teams know plenty in final practise whos the top dog on one lap pace.  

 

The paradox is, what they tried to avoid, is what they see happening now in Q3: nobody goes out, the guys who know they never get pole only an in/out lap and the top guys only set one timed lap and then its all quiet again. At least in the old days, the last 10 minutes were the best. And if it started to rain, the lower teams got pole because of their early laps.

 

And with the current engine/gearbox rules, itll all stay the same. Nobody wants excess miles on their machines. One lap, and thats it.

Edited by 0Fritz, 06 February 2014 - 18:40.

[SenorSjon]

The 12 lap, 60 minute format is my favourite as well. It builds up to a climax. Whiners had no chance, just go out earlier. I can't remember any epic Q after the 12 lap format was binned for the wrong reasons.

[SpartanChas]

Agreed!    And while we're at it they might as well ditch Q1 too. It takes way too long, usually has the exact same result, and it makes the lacklustre Q2 even more boring. I can't think of any good reason not to combine Q1 and Q2 into one.

 

Better yet, a single lap qualifying. Gives us a chance to actually see the qualifying rather than some nondescript overview shot of the start-finish straight. You're usually better off watching the Live Timing than the TV coverage.

 

Let's make the most of this opportunity by also getting rid of the shots of the irrelevant people who tend to bunch up in the garages. Ban any director who cuts away from on-track action to show us RandomActor#1 or BlondeGirl#2.

 

NO NO NO NO NO! Many people like seeing Adrian Sutil's gf in the garage.

 

As for qualifying changes I'm all for it, wonder if some teams might still not run in Q3 to try and save the power unit though.

[Risil]

They're doing that thing again when they change everything at once and then you don't know what worked and what didn't.

[Paco]

No one should disadvantaged so a qualy spec tire for Q3 is crazy. Easiest way: qualy set and race set. Can't use qualifying set in race and can't use race set in qualifying. That way. No conservation required. To avoid lack of action and make sure everyone goes out and tries each session: Q1 - as is. Q2 - average Q2 and Q1 fastest laps. Q3 - average Q3 and Q2 fastest laps. Must have at least 4 timed laps or 7 spot grid penalty.

[Juan Kerr]

I've been saying this for years and years and years and I still ain't changing my opinion because I've never seen a better idea. They should just have a qualifying hour like they used to with performance tyres. Everyone forgets that the main problem apart from some costs was an empty track for the first 40 minutes. All they have to do is split the session in a few parts and make the cars qualify for the next session with a cut-off point. For example if they decided on 3 parts then the top 16 go through to Q2 and the top 8 go through to Q3. 3 sets of soft tyres each for the hour, empty tanks. Job done we're back to the old system that everyone like and the cars are on track. There's no point in wiping the timing sheets either, leave the times there for the whole hour, If you wanna go flat out for the first ten minutes you can if you want and leave a set until ten minutes before the end but you have to do a competitive time are have done one to get through.

You don't have to be a genius to work that out.

[Paco]

That said. I say go back to 12laps in 60mins and let teams be responsible for their own actions and decisions of how they put in their laps.If you get stuck in traffic or mess up... tough

[Clatter]

Not me. Its not a damn circus, where the best horses need to dance 3 times.

 

Get out, one stonker lap that nobody can touch, and thats it. Im fine with that.

 

Currently the teams are so close that i doubt it would stay with one lap anyway, but the whole manufactured 3 sessions is standing me back. Teams know plenty in final practise whos the top dog on one lap pace.  

 

The paradox is, what they tried to avoid, is what they see happening now in Q3: nobody goes out, the guys who know they never get pole only an in/out lap and the top guys only set one timed lap and then its all quiet again. At least in the old days, the last 10 minutes were the best. And if it started to rain, the lower teams got pole because of their early laps.

 

And with the current engine/gearbox rules, itll all stay the same. Nobody wants excess miles on their machines. One lap, and thats it.

Have you ever attended a GP weekend?

[alfa1]

FIA and teams meeting to discuss a few small tweaks to qualifying

 

 

Back in 2008 I wrote the following... Note that there have been more patches placed over the top since then also.

With the introduction of the three session qualifying, we found that much of Q3 was a boring fuel burn phase.
1. A patch was introduced to shorten the Q3 period.

The following year, the fuel burn phase was still rather boring,
2. A patch was introduced to shorten it further.

The concept of any kind of fuel burn phase was found to be morally objectionable in these days of environmental awareness, so
3. A patch was introduced to the fuel carried during the Q3 period.

Cars were found to be to slow in the lap back to the pits, saving fuel, so
4. A patch was introduced to make them drive back within 120%.

 

...

 

and so now they're saving tyres (as well as engines) so we apparently need to stick another rule band aid patch over the top of the mess we have so far.

 

I reiterate what I said back in 2011:

Rather than introduce a new band aid patch rule over the top of previous rules, how about instead they drop one or two rules so that drivers wish of their own accord to go out and do laps.

[Fastcake]

The 12 lap, 60 minute format is my favourite as well. It builds up to a climax. Whiners had no chance, just go out earlier. I can't remember any epic Q after the 12 lap format was binned for the wrong reasons.

 

Clearly you weren't paying attention in 2010. Without the race fuel or tyre worries, almost every Q3 session saw a continuous battle for pole. Before that, in 2009 the cars was so closely matched even Q1 saw a serious fight to progress out of. The only reason some pole fights have been rather flat is the tyre rules. Remove the requirement, and every session will see a pole fight yet again.

[Juan Kerr]

Clearly you weren't paying attention in 2010. Without the race fuel or tyre worries, almost every Q3 session saw a continuous battle for pole. Before that, in 2009 the cars was so closely matched even Q1 saw a serious fight to progress out of. The only reason some pole fights have been rather flat is the tyre rules. Remove the requirement, and every session will see a pole fight yet again.

Its still not a patch on the old format, clearly you have forgotten what that was like?

[Clatter]

Its still not a patch on the old format, clearly you have forgotten what that was like?

I've not forgotten. The current format is better but for the tyre rules.

[BullHead]

They're doing that thing again when they change everything at once and then you don't know what worked and what didn't.

Well they've made a good job at buggering everything else up, might as well screw with quali too....

[wingwalker]

I think the current format is fine (although I'm still puzzled that it took so long to get rid of the burning fuel phase) and I like that idea. The main problem with it (the format) is that we no longer get a full onboard lap from anyone as lots of things are happening at once. But I think tv directing is also to blame as there's no full lap onboards in FP's either maybe FIA assumes everyone has access to onboard channels.

[Zoetrope]

No way. This was just about acceptable to watch if your in front of the TV, but awful if you have spent the money and were trackside. 

Plus, you usually get one final lap in Q3 nowadays too due to saving tyres so drivers have to deliver under pressure anyway.