753 replies to this topic

[Seanspeed]

One thing I've been a little annoyed with over the past year or two is the allowance of being able to push an overtaking driver off the track as a 'defensive technique'. I consider overtaking on the outside a perfectly valid, and impressive, overtaking solution for a driver. People say it comes with it risk. I agree, but I would say that any overtaking maneuver that isn't easily accomplished on a straight involves risk and cooperation of both parties. An outbraking maneuver on the inside of somebody involves the car being overtaken to not turn in on the driver on the inside, for example. If they do turn-in on somebody who is already alongside them, it is their fault if a collision occurs, not the fault of the driver trying to overtake.

And that 'being alongside' part is key. I know that overtaking on the outside is typically a more difficult pass to make. The car potentially being overtaken will naturally want to power out of the corner and will lead it wider out onto the exit, where the overtaking driver is likely to be to some degree. I think 'the degree' is what determines who needs to lift off. If you are trying to overtake on the outside and you only have your nose alongside the car on your inside, you need to back off if your rival runs their car out wide, trying to get full-power out of the corner. You did not do enough to earn your right to that room. If you refuse to lift off and your rival drives out the corner and a collision occurs, it will be your fault. But if you *do* get yourself completely alongside somebody, I think it is then the responsibility of your rival to lift some, change trajectory and at least leave you room(not saying they have to concede the position completely).

I think this is absolutely necessary racing etiquette to follow. Allowing drivers to just push people off on the outside is not only dangerous, but is unfair and de-legitimatizes the viability of overtaking on the outside. Smart drivers will take notice that this sort of 'defensive technique' is not being punished. Not only that, but any driver who continues after being pushed off-track and completes a pass will get punished instead. A double whammy that sets the precedent that if somebody is trying to overtake you on the outside, just push them off-track and you're good to go.

And as for the dangerous part, that may sound dramatic, but I don't feel it is. Grip off-track isn't always the best. There wont always be happy tarmac that allows people to continue just fine. It could lead to a driver losing control and crashing into a barrier. Or spinning out and maybe coming back on track and causing a collision with another car. More than that, my main gripe is that it essentially amounts of an attitude of "Either get off-track or I'm going to hit you", which I feel is absolutely awful.

I know this discussion will likely be about Lewis' actions yesterday and that's fine. Its certainly what prompted me to write this all up. And I want to clarify that I'm not here to bash Lewis, as I was being accused of in another thread. I think apart from this one thing, Lewis showed incredible poise and determination, and I would say the same thing even if Nico had gotten by and won at the end. I think good defensive driving is an underrated skillset and something I value in a racing driver and I do think that Lewis is top-tier at this sort of thing normally. But I think he crossed the line there and I feel that things need to change cuz its not the first time he's done it and there are a few examples of other drivers getting away with it as well.

EDIT: Oh, and all this ignores the fact that its matter-of-fact illegal.

Edited by Seanspeed, 07 April 2014 - 07:32.

[Bartonz20let]

He who has the line & track position wins.

If the line takes you to the outside extremities of the track it's fair game.

Let's race!

Edited by Bartonz20let, 07 April 2014 - 07:32.

[noikeee]

It's not the last year or 2 - I've been saying the same since Fuji 07 or 08 when Kubica and Massa had that great battle, which was fun to watch but they were pushing each other off track a silly amount of times. It started possibly even earlier with the Schumacher chops at the starts of grand prixs 10 years ago or so. It's unsafe and only became accepted because of the tarmac runoffs. One of these days someone will try to pull it off at Suzuka, someone's going to get hurt then we'll go on a debate of precedents again.

 

That being said it's been accepted for so long I think absolute fair play to Hamilton for playing within what's effectively the enforced limits. It's not like Rosberg played it nice neither - at least two of his T1 attempts were divebombs, as he was not anywhere near alongside Lewis by the time they started braking for the corner. See the Gutierrez/Maldonado incident for what can happen once you do that. I think it was a magnificent display of composure by both drivers on the absolute edge of the limits of acceptable racing, and a type of racing you can only pull off if you have 100% full trust with each other as they do, particularly being instructed to take the car home!

 

Not to dismiss this thread neither under the "oh it was good racing let it go" argument - it's a legitimate complain as it sets precedents for when things won't end well. But it was sure nice to watch yesterday and I think Lewis' defensive drive was as good as I've ever seen in F1.

[undersquare]

If you are wheel to wheel on corner exit you get pushed off, by the wheels.  You have to be a bit ahead.  Everybody knows this ;)

[Lights]

Agree with OP. But nothing will be done.

[boldhakka]

Agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately it has become embedded in F1 culture lately and will take a long time to change. There are only a handful of drivers who do leave room on the outside (Button being one) but even they are not very consistent at doing that. 

[bonjon1979a]

Could you show screen shots of where you think he crossed the line. I've watched f1 for 30 years and that was gentlemans racing compared with the 80s and 90s. If you start penalising drivers for what Lewis did yesterday, you may as well disallow any attempts to defend position. If you have the racing line, you don't have to give it up because the person behind has decided to try to go around the outside.

[Lotus53B]

The classic Villeneuve vs Arnoux at Dijon in '79, which everyone holds up as the best battle of F1 drivers, they, according to your definition "push each other off track" banging wheels, no quarter.

I think it's called racing.

[Seanspeed]

If you start penalising drivers for what Lewis did yesterday, you may as well disallow any attempts to defend position.

No need to be so dramatic. I think defending is great and nowhere have I said or implied anything about defending being a bad thing. I do, however, think that defending by pushing people off-track should be disallowed. Or well, it is disallowed, but I think it needs to be enforced. There are many legitimate ways of defending that don't involve doing this. Lewis may well still have kept the position going into the next corner even if he'd left Nico room. And like I said, its an attitude of "Get off the track or I'm going to hit you.", which I feel has no place in motorsports.

I love tough overtaking and defending. Trust me, I'm no stickler for rules and I don't want some sanitized sport, either. But I do think things need to be fair and respectable.

Oh, for a screenshot:



Nico has earned the right to some room there, no doubt in my mind.

Edited by Seanspeed, 07 April 2014 - 08:15.

[stanga]

The classic Villeneuve vs Arnoux at Dijon in '79, which everyone holds up as the best battle of F1 drivers, they, according to your definition "push each other off track" banging wheels, no quarter.

I think it's called racing.

 

They should have been penalised according to the OP's position. They raced far harder than Hamilton and Rosberg, if you ask me.

[peroa]

No need to be so dramatic. I think defending is great and nowhere have I said or implied anything about defending being a bad thing. I do, however, think that defending by pushing people off-track should be disallowed. Or well, it is disallowed, but I think it needs to be enforced. There are many legitimate ways of defending that don't involve doing this. Lewis may well still have kept the position going into the next corner even if he'd left Nico room. And like I said, its an attitude of "Get off the track or I'm going to hit you.", which I feel has no place in motorsports.

I love tough overtaking and defending. Trust me, I'm no stickler for rules and I don't want some sanitized sport, either. But I do think things need to be fair and respectable.

They were yesterday and I fully agree with @bonjon1979a.

That was the beauty of yesterdays race...

Edited by peroa, 07 April 2014 - 08:17.

[tifosiMac]

I didn't see a problem with this yesterday personally and think both drivers pushed each other to the limit. It makes for exciting races when they do this and its something we've seen for generations. Lets not dull it down even more by applying more penalties for hard racing please.

[Seanspeed]

The classic Villeneuve vs Arnoux at Dijon in '79, which everyone holds up as the best battle of F1 drivers, they, according to your definition "push each other off track" banging wheels, no quarter.

I think it's called racing.

Funny you say that.

Arnoux *would* have been penalized by today's rules actually, for completing an overtake after running off-track on the outside.

[teejay]

There is a MASSIVE difference between pushing someone off, or running someone wide.

 

One is a no no, the other is an agreed defensive technique.

[Seanspeed]

They were yesterday and I fully agree with @bonjon1979a.
That was the beauty of yesterdays race...

"Get off track or we crash" is not respectful driving whatsoever. Nor is it fair.

There is a MASSIVE difference between pushing someone off, or running someone wide.

When you run somebody wide, off-track, no there isn't any difference.

Edited by Seanspeed, 07 April 2014 - 08:20.

[Retrofly]

Its about the person going into the corner first holding the racing line, the person trying the overtake is offline because he put his car there.

This isn't about car A pushing Car B off the track. This is about car B putting his car into a position where if car A follows the racing line Car B will be forced off the circuit. So its Car B's fault, so how can punish car A?

 

If you start calling this type of racing illegal you are effectively punishing drives for holding a racing line.

 

This type of maneuver isn't a new thing, nor is it specific to F1 or  even 4 wheeled racing for that matter. Its don't in every kind of motorsport throughout the world at all levels. Everyone knows the score, everyone has the same options in the toolbox and I've never seen a driver complain about the tactic.

 

Hell if motorcycle racers can do it, you can certainly do it in F1.

 

"Get off track or we crash" is not respectful driving whatsoever. Nor is it fair.

When you run somebody wide, off-track, no there isn't any difference

 

Just a question Seanspeed have you ever been involved in any motor racing yourself?

Edited by Retrofly, 07 April 2014 - 08:22.

[stanga]

Which other drivers apply this defensive technique, Seanspeed?

[teejay]

"Get off track or we crash" is not respectful driving whatsoever. Nor is it fair.

When you run somebody wide, off-track, no there isn't any difference.

 

Of course there is.

 

Option A gives the driver trying to pass no chance, accident ensured.

 

Option B gives the driver trying to pass options - keep attacking and tough it out, pull back and keep going, try again or rethink the passing attempt.

 

Furthermore, the driver B is not being told "get off the track or crash" he is being told "not here, not now"

 

Its exciting close racing, ironically, yesterday the closest they got was out of turn one where Rosberg had to get out of it but was still well within track limits.

Edited by teejay, 07 April 2014 - 08:25.

[Dalin80]

Oddly it was nico pushing lewis off the track at bahrain and receiving no punishment that set the precedent for the moves we are seeing now.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yC05YfPIBVc

Edited by Dalin80, 07 April 2014 - 08:27.

[Seanspeed]

Its about the person going into the corner first holding the racing line, the person trying the overtake is offline because he put his car there.
This isn't about car A pushing Car B off the track. This is about car B putting his car into a position where if car A follows the racing line Car B will be forced off the circuit. So its Car B's fault, so how can punish car A?
 
If you start calling this type of racing illegal you are effectively punishing drives for holding a racing line.
 
This type of maneuver isn't a new thing, nor is it specific to F1 or  even 4 wheeled racing for that matter. Its don't in every kind of motorsport throughout the world at all levels. Everyone knows the score, everyone has the same options in the toolbox and I've never seen a driver complain about the tactic.
 
Hell if motorcycle racers can do it, you can certainly do it in F1.
 
 
Just a question Seanspeed have you ever been involved in any motor racing yourself?

Have you?

Cuz this argument that a driver can hold the racing line is nonsense and always has been. By this logic, if somebody is trying to overtake you on the inside(off-line), it is within your right to turn-in on them and expect them to move out of the way since they aren't on the racing line.

And to answer your question, I like sim racing, where I think many people have a too sanitized view of how to go racing, honestly. I get yelled at for moving over to defend, for instance, with some people clearly in the old IndyCar mindset of 'no blocking allowed'.

I'm pretty damn familiar with racing etiquette.

I don't think people realize that I'm not trying to hurt the racing. I think a clarification on this will actually help it, as overtaking on the outside will be a viable move and we wont see drivers being penalized for being pushed off track during a legit overtaking maneuver and then being punished for it, which is BS.

[teejay]

Oddly it was nico pushing lewis off the track at bahrain and receiving no punishment that set the precedent for the moves we are seeing now.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yC05YfPIBVc

 

On a straight of all places, where there is much less excuse for that sort of behaviour.

[Clatter]

Could you show screen shots of where you think he crossed the line. I've watched f1 for 30 years and that was gentlemans racing compared with the 80s and 90s. If you start penalising drivers for what Lewis did yesterday, you may as well disallow any attempts to defend position. If you have the racing line, you don't have to give it up because the person behind has decided to try to go around the outside.

Totally disagree. 

 

The racing line is not something marked out on the circuit, its just a description of the quickest way round the circuit. If another driver is occupying that bit of space then you have lost the right to use it yourself. The fact that a driver has managed to get on the outside often is a result of defending the inside line and not actually being on the racing line in the first place.

[Seanspeed]

Oddly it was nico pushing lewis off the track at bahrain and receiving no punishment that set the precedent for the moves we are seeing now.
 
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yC05YfPIBVc

Great example. Nico was totally in the wrong there and I think most people at the time agreed.

@teejay - I don't think you understand that running somebody wide and off-track does *not* give them any options other than 'back out or crash'.

[Henrik B]

If you are allowed to push someone off who is on the outside, but alongside, you must also be allowed to push someone off who is on the INSIDE when you claim your "racing line". You can't have it both ways. That means the car on the mythological "racing line" - which is different for each driver and corner - always is right to freely choose his path?

In my view, Rosberg - and any driver - has the right to stay on the track.

Edit: And Seanspeed used the exact same argument while I typed my post...

Edited by Henrik B, 07 April 2014 - 08:36.

[teejay]

Have you?

Cuz this argument that a driver can hold the racing line is nonsense and always has been. By this logic, if somebody is trying to overtake you on the inside(off-line), it is within your right to turn-in on them and expect them to move out of the way since they aren't on the racing line.

And to answer your question, I like sim racing, where I think many people have a too sanitized view of how to go racing, honestly. I get yelled at for moving over to defend, for instance, with some people clearly in the old IndyCar mindset of 'no blocking allowed'.

I'm pretty damn familiar with racing etiquette.

I don't think people realize that I'm not trying to hurt the racing. I think a clarification on this will actually help it, as overtaking on the outside will be a viable move and we wont see drivers being penalized for being pushed off track during a legit overtaking maneuver and then being punished for it, which is BS.

 

Even with the indycar no blocking rule you were able to run people wide if they tried the outside route.

[Retrofly]

This is crowding

 

[youtube][youtube]

 

Which is completely different to what Hamilton did at Turn 4. The main difference is the above is deliberate and off the racing line.

 

What seanspeed you're complaining about is a driver taking the optimal line round a corner. Naughty driver, how dare you do such a thing!

[peroa]

"Get off track or we crash" is not respectful driving whatsoever. Nor is it fair.

When you run somebody wide, off-track, no there isn't any difference.

I'm sure you will be able to provide us with some photo/video evidence to present what exactly bothered you yesterday (except LH of course).

[teejay]

Great example. Nico was totally in the wrong there and I think most people at the time agreed.

@teejay - I don't think you understand that running somebody wide and off-track does *not* give them any options other than 'back out or crash'.

 

Of course it does - execute the pass better, and get into a position where you cant be run wide.

[Seanspeed]

Even with the indycar no blocking rule you were able to run people wide if they tried the outside route.

Run somebody wide, sure. Just don't run them off-track.

[Seanspeed]

Of course it does - execute the pass better, and get into a position where you cant be run wide.

This is like blaming a driver for trying to overtake on the inside and getting turned-in on because they didn't 'execute the pass better and get into a position where they cant be turned-in on'. Its a poor argument.

[Wingnut]

Oddly it was nico pushing lewis off the track at bahrain and receiving no punishment that set the precedent for the moves we are seeing now.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=yC05YfPIBVc

 

I think there is a difference between Nico pushing Lewis off on a straight, and a Lewis taking the racing line around a corner, and in doing so, pushing Nico off.

[bonjon1979a]

No need to be so dramatic. I think defending is great and nowhere have I said or implied anything about defending being a bad thing. I do, however, think that defending by pushing people off-track should be disallowed. Or well, it is disallowed, but I think it needs to be enforced. There are many legitimate ways of defending that don't involve doing this. Lewis may well still have kept the position going into the next corner even if he'd left Nico room. And like I said, its an attitude of "Get off the track or I'm going to hit you.", which I feel has no place in motorsports.

I love tough overtaking and defending. Trust me, I'm no stickler for rules and I don't want some sanitized sport, either. But I do think things need to be fair and respectable.

Oh, for a screenshot:



Nico has earned the right to some room there, no doubt in my mind.

Nothing wrong here, show the next ones in the sequence and you'll see the speed differential between the two, rosberg went deeper and wider, compromising his exit, Hamilton went shallower took inside line so has better momentum so will be able to take the racing line ahead of nico. He's not pushing nico off the track, just taking the racing line. It's not being overly dramatic, if you ban drivers from being able to take the racing line to defend against drivers going around the outside then effectively you will be preventing them from defending as the car behind will know that all he needs to do is get around the outside and then try to force the car in front who has better momentum off the racing line. Let's see the rest of the screen shots.

Also, it's worth remembering that Hamilton has the apex for the next corner as he is ahead. If you make it illegal than any car following another could lay claim to a corner by being half a car length alongside. We've seen it so many times, if the car in front has the corner you can't stick it up the inside because that space is always going to disappear as the car in front takes the apex as they have every right to do. It's fairly basic and fundamental stuff.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 07 April 2014 - 08:48.

[linttu]

Is it ok to push people wide, and usually off the circuit, according to the "racing-code"?

In other words is it ok to take a wider line than usual and force the other driver to choose between backing off or having contact (seems like playing a game of chicken)?

 

Some racers do this often and then there are some who really never do this.

 

As a spectator, with no own experience, I would like to know.

[teejay]

This is like blaming a driver for trying to overtake on the inside and getting turned-in on because they didn't 'execute the pass better and get into a position where they cant be turned-in on'. Its a poor argument.

 

No its not, it is nothing alike.

 

1. Running someone wide doesn't automatically mean contact.

 

2. Totally different type of passing move - you should know this from your sim racing.

 

People defending often turn in early to protect a corner forcing the driver trying to pass to have to back out of the attempt...

[superdelphinus]

I think the ones Massa and vettel did yesterday are the type that need to be clamped down on, not ones where a lead car holds the racing line

[Donkey]

Problem imo is the tarmac run offs have given the drivers the impression that they can run wide and not be penalised.

 

Put gravel at the edge of the track there and Nico probably wouldn't have tried to pass around the outside in the first place, he would have waited and probably got past Hamilton at the next corner instead of losing time to Hamilton.

[Henrik B]

What seanspeed you're complaining about is a driver taking the optimal line round a corner. Naughty driver, how dare you do such a thing!

You simply can't take the optimal racing line when there's a car in the way, inside or outside. This is rule 1A when making a pass in a corner - force the driver ahead NOT to take the optimal racing line, usually by placing your car in the way of that other driver. Easiest if you get the inside at the apex, but viable on the outside if you have the speed and complete the pass at the next corner.

[Seanspeed]

Nothing wrong here, show the next ones in the sequence and you'll see the speed differential between the two, rosberg went deeper and wider, compromising his exit, Hamilton went shallower took inside line so has better momentum so will be able to take the racing line ahead of nico. He's not pushing nico off the track, just taking the racing line. It's not being overly dramatic, if you ban drivers from being able to take the racing line to defend against drivers going around the outside then effectively you will be preventing them from defending as the car behind will know that all he needs to do is get around the outside and then try to force the car in front who has better momentum off the racing line. Let's see the rest of the screen shots,

Nico actually had the momentum there. He had to back out because Lewis left him no room on the outside.

[noikeee]

Have you?

Cuz this argument that a driver can hold the racing line is nonsense and always has been. By this logic, if somebody is trying to overtake you on the inside(off-line), it is within your right to turn-in on them and expect them to move out of the way since they aren't on the racing line.

And to answer your question, I like sim racing, where I think many people have a too sanitized view of how to go racing, honestly. I get yelled at for moving over to defend, for instance, with some people clearly in the old IndyCar mindset of 'no blocking allowed'.

I'm pretty damn familiar with racing etiquette.

 

x2

 

If I ever tried to pull off in simracing what Hamilton and Rosberg did yesterday, even if against a known fair driver, I'd 100% surely crash even if being in full control of the vehicle. Admitedly strapped to a 19" monitor we don't have the full vision and perception they do, neither we have over a decade of experience of racing each other like they do, and then there's lag contacts so we need to be extra careful.

 

But pushing someone off the track, on the exit of a corner, after the car is no longer traction limited? I don't think that is accepted in any motorsport except F1 and its associated series (and it's still sometimes punished in GP2). For good reason.

 

"Right to the racing line" is absolute bullcrap, doesn't exist in any rule book anywhere.

 

Again I don't want to sanitize the racing (it's more than entirely possible to have exciting racing without this kind of moves) and I'm not bashing Hamilton neither, I think he was magnificent yesterday within what's effectively the accepted enforced rules even if I don't agree with them.

[Dalin80]

Oh yes there is a difference but by the stewards not giving a slapped wrist for that and other events of the past couple of years such moves are now part of F1 even though there are more 'unpleasant'(?). But if they had come down harder on the drivers would we be happy with them interfering in the racing to that degree?

[teejay]

Nico actually had the momentum there. He had to back out because Lewis left him no room on the outside.

 

If he had the momentum how did Lewis get in front to make him back off?

[Retrofly]

Have you?

Cuz this argument that a driver can hold the racing line is nonsense and always has been. By this logic, if somebody is trying to overtake you on the inside(off-line), it is within your right to turn-in on them and expect them to move out of the way since they aren't on the racing line.

And to answer your question, I like sim racing, where I think many people have a too sanitized view of how to go racing, honestly. I get yelled at for moving over to defend, for instance, with some people clearly in the old IndyCar mindset of 'no blocking allowed'.

I'm pretty damn familiar with racing etiquette.

I don't think people realize that I'm not trying to hurt the racing. I think a clarification on this will actually help it, as overtaking on the outside will be a viable move and we wont see drivers being penalized for being pushed off track during a legit overtaking maneuver and then being punished for it, which is BS.

 

Yep, motorcycle racer at club level and its even allowed there, and all other forms of motorsport. They use the exact same technique. Hell I have sim experience too, raced 2 years on iRacing and I never saw one complaint about someone running the wide line and getting pushed out.

 

Also your argument about turn is is flawed.

 

If someone is on the inside and you take the racing line there is a crash. You're turning into an area a car already occupies.

If you are on the inside and you hold your line there is no crash. The other car does not occupy a part of the track that is on the racing line.

 

You clearly don't understand racing or technique, if you can't see the difference between actual crowding, holding the racing line and turning in on a driver.

 

Its funny that no racer on any of the commentaries, Rosberg himself or team managers has said it was wrong. No one.

[Henrik B]

Put gravel at the edge of the track there and Nico probably wouldn't have tried to pass around the outside in the first place, he would have waited and probably got past Hamilton at the next corner instead of losing time to Hamilton.

In Monaco or Canada Lewis wouldn't have pushed Nico in the wall since that would risk his own car.

[P123]

It's not just been an issue in the past couple of years, it's been there for well over a decade.  "Deliberate crowding"- not just in corners but on straights too.  But it's never punished.  The drivers regularly use it as a form of defence and as we can tell from the most recent example Rosberg believed it to be fair.  I think it's a bigger issue on Tilke tracks with the acres of run off- drivers are more likely to go for outside moves because they know getting it wrong (carrying too much speed on entry) comes without penalty, and drivers are more likely to defend by crowding for similar reasons. 

[noikeee]

If he had the momentum how did Lewis get in front to make him back off?

 

Wat.

 

They were side-by-side, Lewis was marginally ahead but Rosberg having taken a wider line with earlier applying of the throttle had more momentum and surely would accelerate better out of the corner. Once he notices Lewis is still turning left he has to lift and/or run further wider ruining his momentum.

 

If you don't know what momentum is, perhaps you shouldn't comment?

[superdelphinus]

I have to say this thread and the equalised horsepower thread are making me feel pretty out of step with other f1 fans at the moment :/

[Retrofly]

But pushing someone off the track, on the exit of a corner, after the car is no longer traction limited? I don't think that is accepted in any motorsport except F1 and its associated series (and it's still sometimes punished in GP2). For good reason.

 

 

 

Nope its accepted in all forms of motorsport, 4 wheels or 2.

[bonjon1979a]

Nico actually had the momentum there. He had to back out because Lewis left him no room on the outside.

Nonsense. If he had the momentum and racing line he would've pushed Hamilton wide. You really need to watch it again.

Either that or it's the time where nico actually got past, if so where's the problem? He has all four wheels on the track? Where's the foul?

Edited by bonjon1979a, 07 April 2014 - 08:51.

[Seanspeed]

Yep, motorcycle racer at club level and its even allowed there, and all other forms of motorsport. They use the exact same technique. Hell I have sim experience too, raced 2 years on iRacing and I never saw one complaint about someone running the wide line and getting pushed out.
 
Also your argument about turn is is flawed.
 
If someone is on the inside and you take the racing line there is a crash. You're turning into an area a car already occupies.
If you are on the inside and you hold your line there is no crash. The other car does not occupy a part of the track that is on the racing line.
 
You clearly don't understand racing or technique, if you can't see the difference between actual crowding, holding the racing line and turning in on a driver.

I would say its you who doesn't seem to understand that this 'right to the racing line' is gone once another car is alongside you, whether on the inside or the outside.

If he had the momentum how did Lewis get in front to make him back off?

You don't need to get in front to make somebody back off. :/

[Torch]

It's a bit of a fine line.

 

1. You could have one extreme where the guy on the outside is far enough in front to dictate the line. A bit like when Kimi got overtaken and almost came to a stop on the apex. He had no choice but to back out.

 

2. At the other end of the extreme you often see oportunistic drivers attempting to go round the outside but have to back out as there clearly isn't room and the door is firmly closed in their face. Expecting the guy in front on the racing line to back out would be crazy.

 

3. With the Rosberg/Hamilton incident it's a bit more tricky. But in my opinion, Hamilton was in more of a comanding place to dictate the line. Rosberg took a gamble and it didn't pay off. If Hamilton would have backed out at the apex and come off the racing line to allow Rosberg to overtake, he would have lost all my respect.  I don't think Rosberg was pushed - going off the circuit was his only opportunity to overtake. He should have been further in front to force Hamilton to back out.