753 replies to this topic

[Skinnyguy]

We just need a replay. If Nico got ahead and didn´t go wide early by himself (before Lewis came with a helping hand) he´s in the right. On the other hand if Lewis was ahead and/or Nico went wide himself before Lewis squeezed him, then it´s Lewis on the right.

[Seanspeed]

bonjon1979a, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:35, said:

He didn't push him off there. Nico ran out wide, because he went around the outside and is trying to come back on the track.

Why do you think Nico went wide? He realized Lewis was not going to let off, so Nico had to go wide to avoid contact. In other words - Lewis pushed him out there. That wasn't Nico's natural line with his initial exit trajectory.

Basically, you're trying to say that how Nico exited the corner, he was bound to go off-track no matter what Lewis did?

[Gareth]

They both raced to the current rules and gave us a fantastic fight.  I don't see how anyone can have an issue with that, it is 100% clear that the rules (as currently interpreted) allow the driver on the inside to `hang out to dry` the driver on the outside on corner exit if the driver on the outside doesn't have his nose infront.  Nothing ungentlemanly there at all from Lewis, just hard, fair, within the rules racing.

 

Whether the rules (or their interpretation) should be changed is a separate question. Personally I agree on that aspect with the OP - if you're more than halfway up you've earned a car's width, whether on the inside or outside.

 

Until the rules change, I'm not going to expect any driver to drive any differently, though - no matter how much I dislike the driver  ;)

[teejay]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:36, said:

Your logic is seriously flawed.   Are you saying that pushing other drivers off the circuit is acceptable just because it won't cause an accident (due to no wall being there).

 

Oh please, don't be so obtuse.

 

You know well that is not my argument.

[noikeee]

maverick69, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:38, said:

As has already been said: Such situations are very much a function of the pursuer taking liberties with the modern hard-on for excessive run-off.

That's not an argument neither. If Hamilton had left Rosberg on-track space for his car and Rosberg STILL chose to use the runoffs to successfully overtake him, then Rosberg would be penalized for overtaking outside of the track boundaries (as Cecotto was yesterday in GP2).

 

As Hamilton didn't leave him space on-track, we'll never know.

[ClubmanGT]

Hamilton does this a lot - there was one race at Hockenheim where he did it to several cars he was overtaking - just dove down the inside and then ran them wide out of the hairpin.

 

But it happens and drivers will do what they can to effect a pass until you tell them they can't do it. Until there isn't a rule about it, they'll do it. That's how the sport works 

[Lights]

bonjon1979a, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:40, said:

Nico went wide because he chose to go around the outside and didn't take the apex so ran wide on the exit.

You don't understand racing.

[bonjon1979a]

Seanspeed, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:42, said:

Why do you think Nico went wide? He realized Lewis was not going to let off, so Nico had to go wide to avoid contact. In other words - Lewis pushed him out there. That wasn't Nico's natural line with his initial exit trajectory.

Basically, you're trying to say that how Nico exited the corner, he was bound to go off-track no matter what Lewis did?

Absolutely nonense. The shot you showed of Nico level he is already heading off track, in less than a tenth of a second, he is going to be over the white lines of the track. The only way Nico was able to get alongside was by compromising his exit. Nico couldn't take a tighter line. Can someone please tell me where and how I can upload an image and I'll end this very quickly.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 07 April 2014 - 09:47.

[maverick69]

noikeee, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:44, said:

 

That's not an argument neither. If Hamilton had left Rosberg on-track space for his car and Rosberg STILL chose to use the runoffs to successfully overtake him, then Rosberg would be penalized for overtaking outside of the track boundaries (as Cecotto was yesterday in GP2).

 

As Hamilton didn't leave him space on-track, we'll never know.

 

My point being that Nico would very likely never have been there if the edge of the track was kitty litter or a wall. 

[Seanspeed]

bonjon1979a, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:47, said:

Absolutely nonense. The shot you showed of Nico level he is already heading off track, in less than a tenth of a second, he is going to be over the white lines of the track. The only way Nico was able to get alongside was by compromising his exit. Nico couldn't take a tighter line. Can someone please tell me where and how I can upload an image and I'll end this very quickly.

http://imgur.com/

Click 'Computer'.

Choose images you want to upload(you can usually CTRL click to do multiple images in one go).

Then copy and paste the BBCode(it'll say its for forums) for each image.

[Bartonz20let]

noikeee, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:38, said:

 

Bollocks. I might not be a Lewis fan but apart from that one borderline move, I thought yesterday was the finest lesson in defensive driving I've *ever* seen in Formula 1 and am happy to give him huge credit for that. Highly doubt that Seanspeed Ali_G and the other more vocal posters in this thread are Lewis detractors neither. See all the posts we've made over the years on this subject with many different drivers as protagonists.

 

It's what's wrong with this board and always will be, there's so many idiots around we can't voice our opinion without people automatically assuming we're on a anti-driver or pro-driver agenda.

 

 

If that were the case this subject would have been discussed in such depth prior to this occasion. Its nothing new yet has never really had such interest or strong opinion.

 

As you say, one borderline move, why the need to start a thread about it? 

 

F1 has been sanitised enough for me, really not sure why anyone would want to sanitise what happened yesterday any further.

 

Anyhow... on topic, had that curb not been changed prior to the race, would Nico have even attempted to overtake in that position? 

[Retrofly]

bonjon1979a, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:40, said:

Also worth noting that his entire corner was less than half a second. Both cars kept the same trajectory from when they entered the corner. Nico went wide because he chose to go around the outside and didn't take the apex so ran wide on the exit. Both drivers were turning right throughout this sequence. This is so obvious, I'm really frustrated I can't upload all the screenshots.

 

^^^ this hard.

 

Nico is 6ft to the left of the inside apex.

 

Nico is still 6ft to the left of the outside apex.

 

Nico's decision to be there, not Hamilton's.

[bauss]

Seanspeed, on 07 Apr 2014 - 08:51, said:

I would say its you who doesn't seem to understand that this 'right to the racing line' is gone once another car is alongside you, whether on the inside or the outside.

You don't need to get in front to make somebody back off. :/

 

this is the crux of the argument... why, even morally/ethically speaking (not just in current F1 laws), should your right to the racing line be gone cos another car is on an inferior line but alongside or slightly behind you. The only time that car has an argument is when he is slightly ahead, half a car length or so... you have no imperative to be generous, compromise your speed and concede your  right to the racing line hence your position just cos another car is beside.

If the car beside is faster then he should execute the pass in a way where you don't have to be generous or charitable.

 

Like DC said, Nico putting his car there was basically him trying to find out how generous LH was going to be, and he got his answer. There is a reason, no one in the sport, drivers, ex drivers, commentators etc have complained about it... not only is it within the rules, ethically you are not obliged to be generous.

 

This doesn't mean you can't overtake on the outside, it just means if you are going to overtake on the outside, then make sure you are ahead when you exit the corner. If not the overtake is not done, you need to fall back and try again.

[Seanspeed]

Gareth, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:43, said:

They both raced to the current rules and gave us a fantastic fight.  I don't see how anyone can have an issue with that, it is 100% clear that the rules (as currently interpreted) allow the driver on the inside to `hang out to dry` the driver on the outside on corner exit if the driver on the outside doesn't have his nose infront.  Nothing ungentlemanly there at all from Lewis, just hard, fair, within the rules racing.
 
Whether the rules (or their interpretation) should be changed is a separate question. Personally I agree on that aspect with the OP - if you're more than halfway up you've earned a car's width, whether on the inside or outside.
 
Until the rules change, I'm not going to expect any driver to drive any differently, though - no matter how much I dislike the driver  ;)

I would actually say the rules currently do prohibit this sort of behaviour, its just not being enforced.

[Ali_G]

Bartonz20let, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:50, said:

If that were the case this subject would have been discussed in such depth prior to this occasion. Its nothing new yet has never really had such interest or strong opinion.

 

 

 

http://forums.autosp...space/page-1?hl

 

This 4 year old thread says otherwise.  Also had nothing to do with Hamilton.

[tifosiMac]

bauss, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:51, said:

this is the crux of the argument... why, even morally/ethically speaking (not just in current F1 laws), should your right to the racing line be gone cos another car is on an inferior line but alongside or slightly behind you. The only time that car has an argument is when he is slightly ahead, half a car length or so... you have no imperative to be generous, compromise your speed and concede your  right to the racing line hence your position just cos another car is beside.

If the car beside is faster then he should execute the pass in a way where you don't have to be generous or charitable.

 

Like DC said, Nico putting his car there was basically him trying to find out how generous LH was going to be, and he got his answer. There is a reason, no one in the sport, drivers, ex drivers, commentators etc have complained about it... not only is it within the rules, ethically you are not obliged to be generous.

 

This doesn't mean you can't overtake on the outside, it just means if you are going to overtake on the outside, then make sure you are ahead when you exit the corner. If not the overtake is not done, you need to fall back and try again.

Perfectly sums it up 

Both drivers are capable of judging for themselves the situation too and I think Nico and Lewis raced cleanly within the limits. 

[Seanspeed]

bauss, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:51, said:

this is the crux of the argument... why, even morally/ethically speaking (not just in current F1 laws), should your right to the racing line be gone cos another car is on an inferior line but alongside or slightly behind you. The only time that car has an argument is when he is slightly ahead, half a car length or so... you have no imperative to be generous, compromise your speed and concede your  right to the racing line hence your position just cos another car is beside.
If the car beside is faster then he should execute the pass in a way where you don't have to be generous or charitable.
 
Like DC said, Nico putting his car there was basically him trying to find out how generous LH was going to be, and he got his answer. There is a reason, no one in the sport, drivers, ex drivers, commentators etc have complained about it... not only is it within the rules, ethically you are not obliged to be generous.
 
This doesn't mean you can't overtake on the outside, it just means if you are going to overtake on the outside, then make sure you are ahead when you exit the corner. If not the overtake is not done, you need to fall back and try again.

Lewis has to take the corner from an inferior line as well, being on the inside of Nico going into the corner. Neither driver has the ability to take the optimum line.

Edited by Seanspeed, 07 April 2014 - 09:55.

[Skinnyguy]

 think all that needs to be said was said already, now we need a replay.

[Lights]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:52, said:

http://forums.autosp...space/page-1?hl

 

This 4 year old thread says otherwise.  Also had nothing to do with Hamilton.

Time flies. I was arguing in that one as well, sad to see nothing has changed since then.

[Ali_G]

Where does it say in the rules that the driver on the "racing line" is allowed to continue on the racing line even if this line will lead to a collision ?

[P123]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:52, said:

http://forums.autosp...space/page-1?hl

 

This 4 year old thread says otherwise.  Also had nothing to do with Hamilton.

 

Yes, the all have previous on this issue.

[Skinnyguy]

Around what lap was this? I´m going to check the full race in a web.

[Bartonz20let]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:52, said:

http://forums.autosp...space/page-1?hl

 

This 4 year old thread says otherwise.  Also had nothing to do with Hamilton.

 

Just to confirm, I wasn't pointing at you as a Hamilton detractor (or however you wan't to label it), there are others in this thread that have also dropped into the V's thread using a range of arguments to negate Lewis's performance yesterday.

 

As it stands, I wholeheartedly disagree with your position on this subject. 

[bauss]

Another thing to note is, there was a time Nico was slightly ahead upon exiting the corner round the outside, LH didn't and couldn't take the optimal racing line without running into Nico cos Nico was already there and hence went side by side into the next corner.

 

The key thing for LH is no matter what line he took, he always carried enough momentum exiting the corner. 

 

What we had yesterday was fantastic wheel to wheel driving and we shouldn't diminish or belittle it by saying drivers must be generous and concede immediately some car is side by side regardless of racing line.... that is b***sht. If that was the law then overtaking will be a piece of cake n the defending driver will be defenseless. Thank God it is not.

[Seanspeed]

bauss, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:00, said:

Another thing to note is, there was a time Nico was slightly ahead upon exiting the corner round the outside, LH didn't and couldn't take the optimal racing line without running into Nico cos Nico was already there and hence went side by side into the next corner.
 
The key thing for LH is no matter what line he took, he always carried enough momentum exiting the corner. 
 
What we had yesterday was fantastic wheel to wheel driving and we shouldn't diminish or belittle it by saying drivers must be generous and concede immediately some car is side by side regardless of racing line.... that is b***sht. If that was the law then overtaking will be a piece of cake n the defending driver will be defenseless. Thank God it is not.

Lewis would have been perfectly primed to still have the inside position going into the next corner if he'd left room there. Nobody was asking him to concede the position.

Just don't run a driver that's alongside you off the track. Really don't think that's asking a lot, nor is it going to hurt the racing whatsoever.

Edited by Seanspeed, 07 April 2014 - 10:06.

[Lights]

Retrofly, on 07 Apr 2014 - 08:20, said:

Its about the person going into the corner first holding the racing line, the person trying the overtake is offline because he put his car there.

This isn't about car A pushing Car B off the track. This is about car B putting his car into a position where if car A follows the racing line Car B will be forced off the circuit. So its Car B's fault, so how can punish car A?

-

Just a question Seanspeed have you ever been involved in any motor racing yourself?

This is funny. Have you? Because I don't believe it when you use the term 'racing line' when discussing a fight.

[Bartonz20let]

'It was tough racing but always with the necessary respect' - Nico Rosberg

[Skinnyguy]

Lap 52 for anyone interested in watching a replay. From the angle we got live it looks to me Lewis was ahead. Nico had more momentum from the apex on but he didn´t do enough in my view. Having said that, the camera angle is pretty bad to judge anything. An onboard would be great.

[undersquare]

All the drivers play to the same rules, that's what matters.  There are many, many times each race where a driver backs out of it 'to avoid a collision', because they all play to the same rules and have the same expectations of each other.

 

To go round the outside you have to be a bit in front on corner exit.  Otherwise you'll be pushed off, just as you'd push the other guy off.  It's the physics of it.

 

Mostly when they know they won't be able to be ahead on corner exit they'll back out of it early, but yesterday there was too much at state for Nico to do that.

 

There's a lot of disingenuous blurring of lines in this thread I gotta say.  Running someone off the track on the straight is totally different, that's why Charlie and all the F1 drivers including Rosberg see it as different, and run each other out of road on corner exits as a matter of routine.

[Retrofly]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:56, said:

Where does it say in the rules that the driver on the "racing line" is allowed to continue on the racing line even if this line will lead to a collision ?

 

Your right, they should get writing on the "F1 code of racing" outlining every possible situation and combination of overtake pass and defense. Hey, they could even break it down to each track and each corner, with handy tips and hints on how to race and overtake.

They could have nice diagrams and maybe some animations to show the drivers how to race. It would be brill.

 

Actually i have a better idea. We put this groove in the track which is electrified. There are 2 grooves going around the whole track with a couple of cross overs. Drivers can stay in the grooves so they make sure they take the same perfect line on each corner and use the cross overs to try and overtake.

[f1fastestlap]

Ali_G, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:37, said:

He drove a diagonal across the track due to this being the "racing line".  It would be the same as a driver, driving another car off the track on a straight but driving a diagonal and this wouldn't be tolerated.

 

No, it's not the same.

I've been watching F1 since the times of Alan Jones and it always was the same. It seems people are afraid of Lewis winning and start making excuses to fit their agenda...

[Retrofly]

Lights, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:07, said:

This is funny. Have you? Because I don't believe it when you use the term 'racing line' when discussing a fight.

 

Yes if you read all the replies you would have seen that I have answered this question.

 

BMCRC if you want to look it up.

[Gareth]

Seanspeed, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:51, said:

I would actually say the rules currently do prohibit this sort of behaviour, its just not being enforced.

Custom and practice of interpretation of the rules is just as much a part of them as the text.  If 100% of the time the rules are interpreted to allow this type of driving, then this type of driving is legal.

 

I'd be fine with the rules, or the interpretation, being changed.  But it would require some formal communication from the FIA to do so.  Until then, I am fine with drivers driving within the rules and will not expect any driver to disadvantage themselves on track by driving to what I would like the rules to be rather than what the rules are.

[doc83]

It seems to me people got used to clean DRS-overtakes too much.

[Buttoneer]

Gareth, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:43, said:

They both raced to the current rules and gave us a fantastic fight.  I don't see how anyone can have an issue with that, it is 100% clear that the rules (as currently interpreted) allow the driver on the inside to `hang out to dry` the driver on the outside on corner exit if the driver on the outside doesn't have his nose infront.  Nothing ungentlemanly there at all from Lewis, just hard, fair, within the rules racing.

 

Whether the rules (or their interpretation) should be changed is a separate question. Personally I agree on that aspect with the OP - if you're more than halfway up you've earned a car's width, whether on the inside or outside.

 

Until the rules change, I'm not going to expect any driver to drive any differently, though - no matter how much I dislike the driver  ;)

I agree with this.

 

It's very clear to me that if this were not currently legal, it happens enough that an unpopular driver will have been picked up on it.  With all the clarifications we are not made aware of because they happen in driver briefings, I would be amazed if this had not come up before.

 

But I do think the current situation is wrong and needs updating.

[velgajski1]

This is called hard racing, Lewis a bit on the edge, but nothing at all wrong with it.

[bauss]

Seanspeed, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:05, said:

Lewis would have been perfectly primed to still have the inside position going into the next corner if he'd left room there. Nobody was asking him to concede the position.

Just don't run a driver that's alongside you off the track. Really don't think that's asking a lot, nor is it going to hurt the racing whatsoever.

 

Once again, if you are not going to run into driver B (because driver B has exited the corner ahead), driver A has no obligation to compromise his racing momentum just because driver B has put his car on the outside. 

 

Lewis has exited the corner n put power down in a way that he would need the whole track for maximum momentum to the next corner, he has done it fast enough that Nico's car is not already there to force him to lose momentum to avoid both cars touching. He has no obligation to be generous.

 

Nico has exited the corner without being ahead, he can't get back on the racing line without driving into LH. He has no right to expect LH to concede his momentum just for him thereby helping him finish the overtake.

 

Once again, if you are the faster car...there are many more ways to overtake without expecting the other guy to be generous.

 

If you are a top notch defensive driver, you are not generous. 

 

Thats it really.

Edited by bauss, 07 April 2014 - 10:23.

[noikeee]

bauss, on 07 Apr 2014 - 09:51, said:

this is the crux of the argument... why, even morally/ethically speaking (not just in current F1 laws), should your right to the racing line be gone cos another car is on an inferior line but alongside or slightly behind you. The only time that car has an argument is when he is slightly ahead, half a car length or so... you have no imperative to be generous, compromise your speed and concede your  right to the racing line hence your position just cos another car is beside.

If the car beside is faster then he should execute the pass in a way where you don't have to be generous or charitable.

 

Like DC said, Nico putting his car there was basically him trying to find out how generous LH was going to be, and he got his answer. There is a reason, no one in the sport, drivers, ex drivers, commentators etc have complained about it... not only is it within the rules, ethically you are not obliged to be generous.

 

This doesn't mean you can't overtake on the outside, it just means if you are going to overtake on the outside, then make sure you are ahead when you exit the corner. If not the overtake is not done, you need to fall back and try again.

 

We're not asking for anyone to be "generous", only for drivers to leave just enough space for each other.

 

Lewis didn't have any more right than Nico did to the corner there, first because there's no such thing as the priviledge of being on the racing line, and second because Lewis himself wasn't taking the optimal line anyway as he was on a narrower turn-in. Just because he was on the inside doesn't give him any extra rights.

 

And now we've established that neither driver had any more right to the corner than the other, imagine both approached the corner with the entitled mentality of your post - they would crash because neither would back out.

 

When you drive around other cars, you acknowledge the other cars are on track and have the same rights as you do. Give and take.

[Buttoneer]

f1fastestlap, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:12, said:

No, it's not the same.

I've been watching F1 since the times of Alan Jones and it always was the same. It seems people are afraid of Lewis winning and start making excuses to fit their agenda...

Ali_G has clearly provided a link to a previous thread on the matter which shows the agenda arose long before the Lewis win.

[peroa]

doc83, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:17, said:

It seems to me people got used to clean DRS-overtakes too much.

This.

What happened yesterday was one of the best battles in recent years, people otherwise complaining of borefests should be ecstatic about the race yesterday.

[Bartonz20let]

peroa, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:23, said:

This.

What happened yesterday was one of the best battles in recent years, people otherwise complaining of borefests should be ecstatic about the race yesterday.

 

That was my first thought after the race, the balance of DRS and defending was the best it has ever been, In all honesty, I was surprised to read this thread this morning.

[Retrofly]

peroa, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:23, said:

This.

What happened yesterday was one of the best battles in recent years, people otherwise complaining of borefests should be ecstatic about the race yesterday.

 

A lot (not all) of  people are only complaining because its Hamilton. If it had been someone else like Button, Massa this thread probably wouldn't exist.

[Skinnyguy]

doc83, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:17, said:

It seems to me people got used to clean DRS-overtakes too much.

 

Nothing to do with that. After having watched a replay in the web of our TV channel, I don´t think Nico did enough to deserve room but it´s a very marginal move that´s right on the limit and it´s always going to make noise, today and in 2002.

[Lights]

Retrofly, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:12, said:

Yes if you read all the replies you would have seen that I have answered this question.

 

BMCRC if you want to look it up.

 

Sorry for not being able to read this entire thread right now. Nevertheless, it was more like a rhetorical question. I can only fundamentally disagree with that type of racing. Considering you’re racing motorbikes, I hope for the sake of your health that you won’t think you’re going into a corner on a magically invented racing line when another participant is scrapping that line because he’s fighting.

[Lights]

Skinnyguy, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:27, said:

Nothing to do with that. After having watched a replay in the web of our TV channel, I don´t think Nico did enough to deserve room but it´s a very marginal move that´s right on the limit and it´s always going to make noise, today and in 2002.

 

If you're on the inside and you can predict that the car on the outside is still going to be there at the corner exit, that car deserves room. In this case it was easy to predict.

[Zoetrope]

The problem is that driver can just dive into outside of the corner to have that one inch of his front wing alongside opponent's rear tyre. The diving driver might compromise his racing line and momentum, but because he is alongside he is entitled to space and the second driver must also compromise his line as well. And then comes another corner where the defending driver might lose out because he had to compromise his previous racing line, because someone dived into outside.

I am not saying this is what happened in Bahrain, but on some of the complexes of corners this is possible.

After all, Maldonado was also alongside Gutierrez into Turn 1...

[rhukkas]

Seanspeed, on 07 Apr 2014 - 07:29, said:

One thing I've been a little annoyed with over the past year or two is the allowance of being able to push an overtaking driver off the track as a 'defensive technique'. I consider overtaking on the outside a perfectly valid, and impressive, overtaking solution for a driver. People say it comes with it risk. I agree, but I would say that any overtaking maneuver that isn't easily accomplished on a straight involves risk and cooperation of both parties. An outbraking maneuver on the inside of somebody involves the car being overtaken to not turn in on the driver on the inside, for example. If they do turn-in on somebody who is already alongside them, it is their fault if a collision occurs, not the fault of the driver trying to overtake.

And that 'being alongside' part is key. I know that overtaking on the outside is typically a more difficult pass to make. The car potentially being overtaken will naturally want to power out of the corner and will lead it wider out onto the exit, where the overtaking driver is likely to be to some degree. I think 'the degree' is what determines who needs to lift off. If you are trying to overtake on the outside and you only have your nose alongside the car on your inside, you need to back off if your rival runs their car out wide, trying to get full-power out of the corner. You did not do enough to earn your right to that room. If you refuse to lift off and your rival drives out the corner and a collision occurs, it will be your fault. But if you *do* get yourself completely alongside somebody, I think it is then the responsibility of your rival to lift some, change trajectory and at least leave you room(not saying they have to concede the position completely).

I think this is absolutely necessary racing etiquette to follow. Allowing drivers to just push people off on the outside is not only dangerous, but is unfair and de-legitimatizes the viability of overtaking on the outside. Smart drivers will take notice that this sort of 'defensive technique' is not being punished. Not only that, but any driver who continues after being pushed off-track and completes a pass will get punished instead. A double whammy that sets the precedent that if somebody is trying to overtake you on the outside, just push them off-track and you're good to go.

And as for the dangerous part, that may sound dramatic, but I don't feel it is. Grip off-track isn't always the best. There wont always be happy tarmac that allows people to continue just fine. It could lead to a driver losing control and crashing into a barrier. Or spinning out and maybe coming back on track and causing a collision with another car. More than that, my main gripe is that it essentially amounts of an attitude of "Either get off-track or I'm going to hit you", which I feel is absolutely awful.

I know this discussion will likely be about Lewis' actions yesterday and that's fine. Its certainly what prompted me to write this all up. And I want to clarify that I'm not here to bash Lewis, as I was being accused of in another thread. I think apart from this one thing, Lewis showed incredible poise and determination, and I would say the same thing even if Nico had gotten by and won at the end. I think good defensive driving is an underrated skillset and something I value in a racing driver and I do think that Lewis is top-tier at this sort of thing normally. But I think he crossed the line there and I feel that things need to change cuz its not the first time he's done it and there are a few examples of other drivers getting away with it as well.

EDIT: Oh, and all this ignores the fact that its matter-of-fact illegal.

 

6 year old kids learn you don't try and drive round the outside, if you do then you are likely to fail. it's a big risk and you have to accept that and don't cry aboyut it

.

.,

.

.

.

.

.

.

SIX YEAR OLD KIDS KNOW THIS

[Ali_G]

Retrofly, on 07 Apr 2014 - 10:27, said:

A lot (not all) of  people are only complaining because its Hamilton. If it had been someone else like Button, Massa this thread probably wouldn't exist.

 

I'm sorry but you are only trying to discredit one side of the argument here but propagating falsehoods.

 

The vast majority of the pro-OP side here are seasoned posters with no anti Hamilton bias.  This has already been shown with most of these posters having taken part in a thread which was about an incident where Alonso and Kubica clashed.

[W154]

Probably a little OT but the passing moves that really worry me, and they seem to be a modern phenomenon, are those where the passing driver is deliberately pushed into the concrete pit wall on the main straight. These usually occur at the start of the race but are also prevalent during the race, Schumacher/Barichello Hungary 2010 is a classic example. It is all very well for the naysayers to scream 'they didn't touch' ,but one day it will be Vettell/Maldonado at it and someone is going to get seriously hurt, if not worse. Been following F1 since mid fifties but can't recall Moss forcing Fangio into a concrete wall, likewise Clark/Stewart, Jones/Villeneuve, or even Mansell/Piquet. It's a modern practice that needs to be stopped now.

[bonjon1979a]

Thanks Sean.

 

Here goes. Worth noting that this is pretty much frame by frame, look at the time, it stays on the same second so bare that in mind.

 

Corner entry. Rosberg is on the right, has a wider corner entry so misses the apex but has more speed.

 

 

Hamilton has the tighter line so has had to sacrifice more speed, Nico has gone wider, missing the apex by some margin so has slingshotted around the outside, so mas more speed.

 

 

Rosberg keeps that speed advantage but starting wider means that he's already heading towards the outer limits of the track.

 

 

That momentum continues to bring Rosberg further up alongside hamilton. But remember he started over a cars width wider on the corner than hamilton yet was carrying more speed. Physics say he's only going one way...

 

 

 

This is the image you posted of nico alongside Hamilton. He is fractionally ahead of Hamilton who is following the natural racing line coming off the corner. Nico has a cars width to the edge of the track but the track is about to bend to the right and Nico is still drifting out wide. Look at the white line that defines track from run off area.

 

 

At this point, Nico is heading off the track. His momentum is going to take him there and there is nothing he can do about it. You can see the white line about two metres in front of his car. As you'll see in a minute, both cars are still taking the corner at this point, they're both turning right and momentum is taking them wide.

 

 

This is the next frame, the director gave us a reverse of what was happening in the shot above. Note the white lines that nico has just crossed, he was heading in this direction in the shot above, they're cornering here at considerable speed. Both cars are still turning right and are being forced wide by centrifugal force. Note that there is still room between the two cars but Nico is driving around the outside and so his trajectory is wider than hamiltons. Look back at the image of them entering the corner together. They were about the same width apart, both cars have taken the corner at pretty much the same angle and heading for the outside of the track.

 

 

Now, Hamilton is also heading for the extremities of the track and it looks for all the world that he's forced Nico off. But look at the distance between them. Think about the fact that the previous three frames have covered a little under two tenths of a second. Is hamilton supposed to wrench is car to the right to allow Nico room to overtake him? Or does he have a right to stick to his line?

 

 

The rules are quite clear on this. You're supposed to leave room on the outside on the entry to the corner, if you chose to get around the outside, then you run the risk of running out of track as Nico did. It's very clear what the rules are.