62 replies to this topic

[LeMans86]

Why is there no thread about this yet? It's dirty tricks!

Rosberg got Lucky to be able to start that last lap, evident from Perez behind him who didn't.

[Seanspeed]

Lewis was actually responsible for letting Nico get his lap in.

[RonnyRonny]

Then why did Lewis let him pass?

[DrivenF1]

What about Perez and the driver ahead holding Lewis up. Dirty tricks! Probably should be banned from the sport too.

 

This is a non-story.

[krod]

Why is there no thread about this yet? It's dirty tricks!

Rosberg got Lucky to be able to start that last lap, evident from Perez behind him who didn't.

 

We can tell that Hamilton's brain fade has affected your life seriously. I recommend counselling for you - I hope you get better soon.

[DrivenF1]

Was Lewis trying:

 

A) to find space to start a flying lap like every driver does

B) to ruin Nico's qualifying session much to his own team's annoyance

C) to pass time for the sake of it

D) to find a comparison to Senna he could make 

 

This is Q1 on the easiest questions ever quiz. How about next time we accuse Lewis of trying to play mind games when he's asked leading questions!?

[Brother Fox]

I dont wanna be one of the tinfoil hat kids, but it did feel a bit fishy at the time.

[tkulla]

Quite the reverse. Lewis was too nice, if anything. He could have just done an "okay" lap and Nico wouldn't have been able to improve.

[hollowstar]

I think we should start a thread about Lewis NOT playing dirty tricks. If really you can't improve your time then at least take advantage of being ahead on track and DON'T let Nico through!

[Kingshark]

Lewis needs to take advice from Nico on how to cheat better.

 

I'm kidding btw, I don't see either drivers as cheats.

[Sheepmachine]

We'll it was only a matter of time before some Mercedes related conspiracy thread was started.

[SamH123]

Why did Hamilton let Rosberg through on their final flying laps?

 

Did we see the onboard?

edit:  ok, interesting video below.  Very strange decision by Hamilton, don't really see the upside to his decision.  Maybe he was worried about getting a penalty if he stayed in front of Rosberg

Edited by SamH123, 05 July 2014 - 14:01.

[Skinnyguy]

Was Lewis trying:

 

A) to find space to start a flying lap like every driver does

B) to ruin Nico's qualifying session much to his own team's annoyance

C) to pass time for the sake of it

D) to find a comparison to Senna he could make 

 

This is Q1 on the easiest questions ever quiz. How about next time we accuse Lewis of trying to play mind games when he's asked leading questions!?

 

After thinking it carefully, I´m pretty sure it must be D) 

 

Now seriously, silly suggestion. If a driver feels another is stopping too much in the last part of his outlap, he can always pass him. And if you can´t pass him, he´s going fast enough. No problem here. 

[MastaKink]

Non event

 

[Seanspeed]

Why did Hamilton let Rosberg through on their final flying laps?
 
Did we see the onboard?

Yea, we did.

Lewis didn't think there was any chance to improve so abandoned the lap and let Nico through.

[jjcale]

I dont wanna be one of the tinfoil hat kids, but it did feel a bit fishy at the time.

 

LOL .... have you read your sig.

 

Its obvious to anyone with common sense that LH must have realised that he would have denied NR a last lap ... he was on provision pole for the first time in however many race weekends and he was desperate to keep it.

 

... but on the other hand given he let NR past on the lap and he kept saying how wet it was perhaps he thought it did not matter anyway so he was not as "guilty" as otherwise.

 

Anyway, NR got pole, LH looks like and idiot .... so it worked out fair, IMO

 

...... but why does Karma only seem to affect LH but not NR

[tagy22]

Non event.

[redreni]

I think Hamilton thought the track would be slower, which is why he aborted. I'd like to see more footage of the out lap but I understand Perez was being a wally as usual. But if you look at Rosberg's onboard, he's not as far back from Hamilton as he'd like to be as they cross the line because he couldn't back up anymore without getting the checkered flag, but he's still a fair way back. For a guy who's supposed to be "faster", as his fans and the BBC's pundits have helpfully informed us repeatedly in the buildup, he seemed to be incredibly slow in the first part of the lap. He's have known he couldn't be pinged for impeding if he was on a timed lap, but he seemed to be making absolutely sure neither he nor Nico were improving. Which is a negative mindset - if you're not absolutely certain that the track is much slower, why not push like hell? Then he aborted the lap.

 

I don't think there's anything the the stewards ought to be getting involved in. But I don't think it would have gone down too well if, as a result of Hamilton's ponderous opening to the lap, Rosberg had thought "I've lost too much time behind Hammilton, I'm going to abort as well" because they they'd have been stuck on the fourth row and would look like a bunch of idiots.

[jimjimjeroo]

Pure muppetry creating this thread

Nico was gifted pole by Lewis

End of

[garoidb]

I think Hamilton thought the track would be slower, which is why he aborted. I'd like to see more footage of the out lap but I understand Perez was being a wally as usual. But if you look at Rosberg's onboard, he's not as far back from Hamilton as he'd like to be as they cross the line because he couldn't back up anymore without getting the checkered flag, but he's still a fair way back. For a guy who's supposed to be "faster", as his fans and the BBC's pundits have helpfully informed us repeatedly in the buildup, he seemed to be incredibly slow in the first part of the lap. He's have known he couldn't be pinged for impeding if he was on a timed lap, but he seemed to be making absolutely sure neither he nor Nico were improving. Which is a negative mindset - if you're not absolutely certain that the track is much slower, why not push like hell? Then he aborted the lap.

 

I don't think there's anything the the stewards ought to be getting involved in. But I don't think it would have gone down too well if, as a result of Hamilton's ponderous opening to the lap, Rosberg had thought "I've lost too much time behind Hammilton, I'm going to abort as well" because they they'd have been stuck on the fourth row and would look like a bunch of idiots.

 

What if it was a somewhat slower timed lap than your pole position time? I'm not sure about the rules, but I wonder.

[P123]

I think this is borne out of Nico's outlap radio message (not broadcast live) and people mistakingly matching up that message with TV pictures, and additionally mistaking the 'blocking' car at the point for Hamilton, whereas it was in fact Perez, who was passed by both Mercs and didn't make it over the line.

I'd say LH was a little too nice, so convinced he was that it was too wet in S1 to be worth trying any further... So, as the footage shows, Perez was the blocking car; once both Mercs passed him Nico created a bit of a bigger gap for himself in the final two corners; Hamilton let him by without issue on the Wellington straight.

[PARAZAR]

Pure muppetry creating this thread

Nico was gifted pole by Lewis

End of

Lewis decided to abort his lap while Nico continued. There was no gifting of anything. 

[Brother Fox]

What seemed odd to me was the section before they passed Perez, not the actual pole lap.

Hamilton wouldnt have minded if they both missed the flag - in hidsight they wouldve got smoked by Vettel & Button but at the time it would've seemed smart

[SophieB]

Why is there no thread about this yet? It's dirty tricks!

Rosberg got Lucky to be able to start that last lap, evident from Perez behind him who didn't.

 

We welcome new threads but if you are not going to engage with any of the people who have refuted your argument, I'm going to close it.

[MortenF1]

thread = fail

[Skinnyguy]

Watching that video I understand a bit more Lewis decission. His first sector was really poor. 

[ensign14]

For a guy who's supposed to be "faster", as his fans and the BBC's pundits have helpfully informed us repeatedly in the buildup, he seemed to be incredibly slow in the first part of the lap. He's have known he couldn't be pinged for impeding if he was on a timed lap, but he seemed to be making absolutely sure neither he nor Nico were improving.

1. If he were concerned about Nico improving, he would have thought he could improve as well, and so gone for it.

2. Or, he would have held Nico up more by doing an OK-ish lap and keeping Rosberg behind.

3. Or, if the conditions were as bad as he thought, he wouldn't have been bothered where Rosberg was, but would have been happy to let him past and waste a set of tyres on a futile chase.

The idea that Hamilton, someone who had been faster than Rosberg at all relevant times this weekend, suddenly gets cold feet at the very end of qualifying, and so gives up a front row position to impede Rosberg to 1 position behind him, is beyond any rational belief whatsoever.

[micktosin]

http://<blockquote c...tf-8"></script>

 

Can we please close this thread now? The team have admitted they told lewis to slow down and let him through.

Edited by micktosin, 05 July 2014 - 14:17.

[alfa1]

What seemed odd to me was the section before they passed Perez, not the actual pole lap.

 

 

That is indeed what this thread was supposed to be about, but all the munchkins who want to talk about the actual Q lap clearly didnt bother to read the actual opening post (where the lead up to the lap is the topic).

[Brother Fox]

So

Nico accused of dodgy tactics in Monaco - it affected Lewis so pages and pages

Lewis accused of dodgy tactics in Britain - it wouldve benefited Lewis so lets not talk about it

[redreni]

What if it was a somewhat slower timed lap than your pole position time? I'm not sure about the rules, but I wonder.

 

In a normal, dry session, without the variability in track condition in different sectors, the way Hamilton began that second Q3 run would have guaranteed him pole by costing Rosberg time in sector 1. In the circumstances that prevailed this afternoon, though, that particular dirty tactic simply wasn't available. Either the track is slower anyway, in which case it doesn't matter what you do, or the track's quicker overall (which it was) in which case you cannot afford to play games or do anything other than complete your lap properly. So if Hamilton was trying to pull a fast one, he's an idiot. And if he wasn't trying to pull a fast one, how do we account for his driving in the opening corners? His approach to village was extraodinarily slow. That was a defensive line that you'd expect to see in a race, not a qualifying session.

[P123]

Watching that video I understand a bit more Lewis decission. His first sector was really poor.

Yes, lockup and a bit of a sideways moment on to the Wellington straight. Obviously there was a huge chunk of time to be found in S3, which he didn't account for.

Edited by P123, 05 July 2014 - 14:22.

[spacekid]

Was Lewis trying:

A) to find space to start a flying lap like every driver does
B) to ruin Nico's qualifying session much to his own team's annoyance
C) to pass time for the sake of it
D) to find a comparison to Senna he could make

This is Q1 on the easiest questions ever quiz. How about next time we accuse Lewis of trying to play mind games when he's asked leading questions!?

It's D, isn't it?

[P123]

1. If he were concerned about Nico improving, he would have thought he could improve as well, and so gone for it.

2. Or, he would have held Nico up more by doing an OK-ish lap and keeping Rosberg behind.

3. Or, if the conditions were as bad as he thought, he wouldn't have been bothered where Rosberg was, but would have been happy to let him past and waste a set of tyres on a futile chase.

The idea that Hamilton, someone who had been faster than Rosberg at all relevant times this weekend, suddenly gets cold feet at the very end of qualifying, and so gives up a front row position to impede Rosberg to 1 position behind him, is beyond any rational belief whatsoever.

And beside all that, I'd say the footage from Rosberg pretty much refutes the colourfully created accusations anyway.

Slightly OT, but as we're seeking to throw blame at drivers in this topic, I wonder if Rosberg's backing out to create a gap in the final two corners may somewhat have impeded Perez's chance of making it over the line (although who can have sympathy for Sergio as he was caught dawdling to the line).

[P123]

So
Nico accused of dodgy tactics in Monaco - it affected Lewis so pages and pages
Lewis accused of dodgy tactics in Britain - it wouldve benefited Lewis so lets not talk about it

That's the very definition of 'lame' (heck it took a while to get to 'pages and pages!). Or do you just not want to watch the footage provided in which there is no ambiguity?

[Brother Fox]

What footage - the one posted above?

 

Thats not what this is about.

you need to lead up to that point.

[redreni]

1. If he were concerned about Nico improving, he would have thought he could improve as well, and so gone for it.

2. Or, he would have held Nico up more by doing an OK-ish lap and keeping Rosberg behind.

3. Or, if the conditions were as bad as he thought, he wouldn't have been bothered where Rosberg was, but would have been happy to let him past and waste a set of tyres on a futile chase.

The idea that Hamilton, someone who had been faster than Rosberg at all relevant times this weekend, suddenly gets cold feet at the very end of qualifying, and so gives up a front row position to impede Rosberg to 1 position behind him, is beyond any rational belief whatsoever.

 

I agree it's a useless tactic. But then so is geting a rival penalised for passing under the SC when you have let him by, and denying that you let him by when you know perfectly well that the radio transcripts will back up the other driver's account and prove that you are lying. That's an equally terrible tactic, which you don't see other drivers using, and yet Hamilton used it.

 

And it would be no surprise if the team told him not to impede Rosberg given how slowly he was going. The team does not care what order they finish him, but they don't want one of their cars to be penalised for impeding the other, nor do they want one of their cars impeded. If Hamilton was going at a more competitive pace, is there any realistic chance that he would have been asked to pull over?

Edited by redreni, 05 July 2014 - 14:29.

[ensign14]

I agree it's a useless tactic. But then so is geting a rival penalised for passing under the SC when you have let him by, and denying that you let him by when you know perfectly well that the radio transcripts will back up the other driver's account and prove that you are lying. That's an equally terrible tactic, which you don't see other drivers using, and yet Hamilton used it.

And if you remember the live broadcast had Trulli saying "he passed me for no reason", which was also a lie. He never got called out on it because Mosley wasn't bent against Toyota. But it did directly lead to McLaren costing Hamilton a position, and the attempt to get it back was so ridiculous.

As I've said before Hamilton's problem is he relies on his team too much. Sometimes the driver is in the best position to judge. China 2007 is the paradigm example of that. And in this case I presume he would have relied on his team telling him to get a shift on, rather than to give way. Indeed, if he wanted to impede Rosberg, that's the time he should have done so - that was the warning that things would be getting quicker.

[redreni]

And if you remember the live broadcast had Trulli saying "he passed me for no reason", which was also a lie. He never got called out on it because Mosley wasn't bent against Toyota. But it did directly lead to McLaren costing Hamilton a position, and the attempt to get it back was so ridiculous.

As I've said before Hamilton's problem is he relies on his team too much. Sometimes the driver is in the best position to judge. China 2007 is the paradigm example of that. And in this case I presume he would have relied on his team telling him to get a shift on, rather than to give way. Indeed, if he wanted to impede Rosberg, that's the time he should have done so - that was the warning that things would be getting quicker.

 

So you don't think he was thinking too much about Rosberg and not enough about his own lap?

 

I'll PM you about the Melbourne 2009 thing as I think this thread is on thin enough ice already without straying from the topic.

[Jejking]

http://<blockquote c...tf-8"></script>

 

Can we please close this thread now? The team have admitted they told lewis to slow down and let him through.

Nuh-uh. The team told Hamilton it was his call to continue or back off. If he didn't go on, he had to let Nico get through.

[ensign14]

So you don't think he was thinking too much about Rosberg and not enough about his own lap?

 

No, I don't think he was thinking about Rosberg at all.  Had he been, he would have bloody well slowed him up. 

[FastnLoud]

Why is there no thread about this yet? It's dirty tricks!

Rosberg got Lucky to be able to start that last lap, evident from Perez behind him who didn't.

 

Yep thats why Lewis let him past because he wanted to destroy his lap, honestly are you for real, timewaster

[garoidb]

Nuh-uh. The team told Hamilton it was his call to continue or back off. If he didn't go on, he had to let Nico get through.

 

It sounds like Mercedes were keen to pre-empt any messing. Nico had already been on the radio to them on the out lap, concerned that Lewis was not going fast enough (presumably for them both to get their laps started before the session ended). 

[Jejking]

Absolutely true. They handled it well, although it was REALLY close with Nico. As he crossed SF the lights went red. Half a second later and he would have been even down on his team mate. Then the forum would have imploded

[ardbeg]

No, I don't think he was thinking about Rosberg at all.  Had he been, he would have bloody well slowed him up. 

Intentional or not, Nico hardly made it before the reds and had to start the lap closer top Lewis than Lewis would have wanted to start behind the car in front of him. Lewis could, and probably should, have made a faster out lap.

[RuleyRamundo]

LeMans86, on 05 Jul 2014 - 14:46, said:

Why is there no thread about this yet? It's dirty tricks!

Rosberg got Lucky to be able to start that last lap, evident from Perez behind him who didn't.

 

Should have blocked him for Monaco.

[redreni]

Should have blocked him for Monaco.

 

 

No, I don't think he was thinking about Rosberg at all.  Had he been, he would have bloody well slowed him up. 

 

But then you do have to be careful, because you can get away with impeding the car behind when you, yourself, are on a fast lap, but only if you're attempting to set a competitive time. As soon as it becomes clear that you're no longer trying for a time, you have to get out of the way. So the option crudely to wreck Rosberg's lap, as an act of revenge, wasn't really there. It has to be somewhat subtle or you don't get away with it. And with Rosberg so close to him, even if he had gone off, Rosberg would have beem past the yellows before they could have been shown. The fact that it wasn't done blatantly, or sufficiently, doesn't mean no attempt was made or that Rosberg wasn't impeded to a certain extent. As I say, though, I don't think it was enough to warrant the involvement of the stewards, and in any event it's Hamilton who emerges with egg on his face.

[ensign14]

But then you do have to be careful, because you can get away with impeding the car behind when you, yourself, are on a fast lap, but only if you're attempting to set a competitive time. As soon as it becomes clear that you're no longer trying for a time, you have to get out of the way.

 

He let Rosberg past.  He was ahead of Rosberg on the lap, and a fraction of a second down on Rosberg in lap time, so he would still have been in a position to get 2nd on the grid to Rosberg - with the possibility of making up the lost time - when he let Rosberg past.  I.e. he let Rosberg past at a time when it was not clear that Hamilton was not going for a time. 

 

The reason why Hamilton's block on Rosberg did not warrant steward involvement is simple.  The block did not exist.

[baddog]

I think the OP did not make his point clear at all. The suggestion is that Lewis tried, BEFORE his last lap, to cross the line either after the flag or so close to it that Nico did not get across before the flag.

 

This took place off camera for me so I am not sure.

 

Once on the lap Lewis obviously just thought it was too slow and got completely complacent.

[baddog]

From Nico on this one:

 

Q: (Michael Schmidt - Auto, Motor und Sport) Nico, you said you had to start the lap directly behind Lewis. First, how much time did it cost you in the first two sectors, where did you pass him and what did you think when you saw Lewis pulling into the pits?

NR: Well of course I was disappointed, starting the lap behind Lewis because if I'm in his gearbox, that doesn't allow me to do my pace so I was disappointed with that, but I didn't have a choice with the situation, with the way it was and just managed to get over the line before the red light came. I actually saw the red light but it worked out. I wasn't sure but then it worked out and then Lewis made a mistake in turn four and after that he then pulled over so as not to block me and I just kept on pushing.