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Two-tier F1


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#1 le chat noir

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 14:31

Apologies if you think this should go somewhere else, but rather than look at the problems facing the sport, I thought a thread to consider different futures might be worthwhile.

 

Here's my thoughts, which many won't like I'm sure...

 

WDC

All drivers entered. Medals (!) awarded, not points.

 

WCC (constructors)

Constructors entered only. Points awarded.

Currently you'd imagine this to include: Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams

 

WCC (customers)

Customer teams entered only. Points awarded.

Currently you'd imagine this to include: Force India (McLaren), STR (Red Bull), Sauber (Ferrari), Lotus (Mercedes), Marussia/Caterham (Williams)

 

Say Hamilton (Mercedes) wins, he gets gold, Mercedes score 10 points

Say Raikkonen (Ferrari) is second, he gets silver, Ferrari score 6 points

Say Perez (Force India) is third, he gets bronze, Force India score 10 points

 

A podium should also always have a space for the winning driver, constructor and customer.

 

Could something like that ever work?

 

You may even be able to come up with some solution where the fifth placed constructor is paid more (by FOM?) to supply the customer team than the winner, or that the worst placed customer gets the best constructor car the following year.

 

It necessitates complete separation of championships.

 

You may wish to go further and have a WDC (constructor) and WDC (customer).

 

Thank you for listening.



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#2 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 14:44

That's quite a good idea IMO, and could work quite well, but it's sort of a band aid solution to a larger problem (that we all know probably won't be solved anytime soon).

 

There is a larger problem (the financial structure from top to bottom) and it seems everyone in the paddock is too scared to talk about it.



#3 Kraken

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 14:54

That's quite a good idea IMO, and could work quite well, but it's sort of a band aid solution to a larger problem (that we all know probably won't be solved anytime soon).

 

There is a larger problem (the financial structure from top to bottom) and it seems everyone in the paddock is too scared to talk about it.

They're not too scared too talk about it. Those who don't get enough talk about it all the time and those who get the lions share are happy with it and don't want to talk about it.



#4 le chat noir

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 14:55

The reason I quite like it is that it can allow someone to come into the constructor tier, fail, and still operate in the customer tier.

 

They can then ramp up capabilities again for another go at the top tier.

 

It offers a safety net.

 

I'm sure you'd need to impose some sort of rules so they can't drop down, take technology and step back up straight away, but still.

 

And you could base it on last years cars (so the constructor has some in-built advantage) and then still allow the customer to do certain updates under their own steam. The issue with that is when rules change and you get a V10 STR at Monza, but we all rather enjoyed that really.

 

I mean, you could even insist new teams start as customers, new drivers with customer teams. Bottom constructor drivers going into relegation, winning customer drivers getting promotion etc etc.



#5 sabjit

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 14:55

Its a very similar structure to BTCC other than the points system where you have constructors and independants.



#6 Amphicar

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 15:03

Also similar to what happened in the 1987 F1 season, when the FIA ran sub-championships for drivers (the Jim Clark Trophy) and teams (the Colin Chapman Trophy) of normally aspirated cars. This was specifically to encourage entrants who did not have access to (or couldn't afford) turbo-charged engines. Tyrrell dominated the Colin Chapman Trophy, with Tyrrell driver Jonathan Palmer winning the Jim Clark Trophy from his team-mate Philippe Streiff.

Edited by Amphicar, 28 October 2014 - 15:04.


#7 Bo77as

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 16:37

I do like the idea, very similar to BTCC which has a brilliant system.



#8 chadwick8505

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 16:54

Not against a two tiered system. Don't know why we need to adopt a medal system or any different point system to implement it... but that's for a different thread. Also the question becomes how you define constructors and customers. Is customers really different from privateers? If so Red Bull and Williams could fall in the second tier which wouldn't be fair. 

 

But definitely an interesting idea just needs some tweaking.



#9 Fastcake

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 16:59

I do like the idea, very similar to BTCC which has a brilliant system.

 

Though the BTCC's system hasn't made sense for years, since there's only two official manufacturer teams left and you have a completely redundant independent team/driver championship.



#10 Vepe1995

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 17:26

I like this idea in general. There are a few things I'd do differently, though...

 

WDC

All drivers entered. Medals (!) awarded, not points.

 

Agreed, except for the medals. I find the medals stupid.

 

WCC (constructors)

Constructors entered only. Points awarded.

Currently you'd imagine this to include: Mercedes, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams

 

Completely agree with this, but there's one thing I'd add. More about that later.

 

WCC (customers)

Customer teams entered only. Points awarded.

Currently you'd imagine this to include: Force India (McLaren), STR (Red Bull), Sauber (Ferrari), Lotus (Mercedes), Marussia/Caterham (Williams)

 

I like this idea. But I'd call this World Teams' Championship.

 

Say Hamilton (Mercedes) wins, he gets gold, Mercedes score 10 points

Say Raikkonen (Ferrari) is second, he gets silver, Ferrari score 6 points

Say Perez (Force India) is third, he gets bronze, Force India score 10 points

 

A podium should also always have a space for the winning driver, constructor and customer.

 

You may even be able to come up with some solution where the fifth placed constructor is paid more (by FOM?) to supply the customer team than the winner, or that the worst placed customer gets the best constructor car the following year.

 

Completely agreed.

 

There are some other issues with a two-tier F1.

 

The definition between constructors and customers. Personally I'd do this like it's (sort of) done in the Sportscar scene. You buy the entire car or take the survival cell (read: cockpit section) from a different car and build your car around it, you're a customer. You build your own survival cell, you're a constructor. So, what if, say Dallara, produces a chassis only meant for customers. If there's no official team for Dallara, how can they score WCC points? Simple, the best two cars score for the WCC. This could be expanded to include all constructors, not only those without official teams.

 

F1 is also known for making huge rule changes, like in 2009 and 2014, meaning some sort of consitency with a rule set, and an overlap period would be needed. At least 5 years should be between larger rule changes, and the overlap period should be 2 years. So if Team A buys a 2014 McLaren, they know it can be used at least up to 2020 (5 year rule+2 overlap). Of course the Performance of the older cars will be adjusted to keep a level playing field and the overlap only applies to customers.

 

How do you prevent constructor teams from runnig in the customers' championship? Unfortunately you realistically can't. But it's possible to make it unattractive to do so. At the moment, the drivers' championship is usless for teams as they don't get prize money for that. The prize money comes from the WCC. Now, to make the customers' championship seem like a bad choice for constuctors, you don't award as much pize money. You could also make a rule that only allows cars of 1 year or older to score.



#11 Disgrace

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 18:33

I don't find this unfathomable at all, it would only put into law what we already know about the skewed playing field.



#12 JHSingo

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 18:43

I'm finding it very difficult to say anything positive about that idea, so I'll simply say this.

 

No. Just no.



#13 MatthewA

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 19:36

Not a bad idea. Aside from the medals, they deserve to be melted :p



#14 Afterburner

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 19:48

As much as I like multi-class racing, I feel it has no place in F1, which I feel is meant to be its own class (it's even implied by the name! :p ). GP2 is the next one down from that; rather than supplying customer cars to F1 teams, why not do so to GP2 teams instead, and have your 'customer championship' replace GP2?

Would rather see the F1 grid get smaller and GP2 gain some genuine notoriety than see F1 go full multi-class, personally, but to each their own.

#15 Otaku

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 19:53

No, just no.



#16 tifosi

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 19:53

All sounds great, just don't call it Formula One.



#17 le chat noir

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 21:19

I completely understand the 'no just no'. This is not what I wish for, just a way to keep the thing I love alive. Hopefully completely unnecessary but a theoretical idea in case it is.

Also this again is basically F1 + F2 running at the same time. Ones F1, customers F2.

Medals, schmedals. It was just a (controversial) way to indicate the driver scoring is independent of team scoring, but that the mixed class of grid could allow drivers from the different classes to compete together.

There is something to this. There is a freedom, a fairness, to this that doesn't currently exist. I still don't like it. but...

For me, the problems are more on the business side than the sporting

Woah...

#18 F1matt

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 21:36

So in effect running a customer car, essentially last years constructors car, would make a team a really big F3 team with limited staff. The idea is good but if the FIA bring in regulation changes like they love to who is responsible for the upgrades?

I have an issue with your "origional" podium, you have Checo in third, a couple of laps before the end Magnussen in the Mclaren takes fourth, what is to stop Mclaren telling force india to slow down so they can get magnussen on the podium?

It just sounds like another excuse to give the few big teams even more power, it's like the premier league allowing Man city, Chelsea, and Arsenal to decide who gets promoted and relegated!

Edited by F1matt, 28 October 2014 - 21:38.


#19 le chat noir

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 22:51

Intra-team orders are banned!

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#20 Brandz07

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Posted 28 October 2014 - 23:17

I like it, well, everything apart from the medals but they can easily be swapped out for points.

 
The only concern I'd have is that the new 'customer' teams may struggle to raise as much cash through sponsorship as they currently do, because they're no longer in the 'top' F1 class and would undoubtedly get less screen time & publicity. The cost of running would be cheaper, but they'd potentially have less money as a result of the new class.


#21 Rob G

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 04:13

 

The only concern I'd have is that the new 'customer' teams may struggle to raise as much cash through sponsorship as they currently do, because they're no longer in the 'top' F1 class and would undoubtedly get less screen time & publicity. The cost of running would be cheaper, but they'd potentially have less money as a result of the new class.

 

Or, conversely, they might be able to raise more cash, because they'd be more likely to be a championship-winning team.



#22 pit5bul

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Posted 29 October 2014 - 04:41

why the need to change so much... im tired of all these changes... i want formula one to be the pinnacle of Motorsport... if you dont have the money.. go to a lower spec series...no more cost cutting.. no more stupid tires.. stupid engine regulation.. stupid parc ferme... just set a certain engine standard...  and no restrictions on aerodynamics... im sure there will be different ideas and concepts !!


Edited by pit5bul, 29 October 2014 - 04:41.


#23 D.M.N.

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 21:42

Some worrying comments around today that suggest this is being mooted.

 

Brundle on Sky alluded to it earlier, which along with this: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116567

 

Bob Fernley said:

 

"I think the FIA are both impotent and powerless, and that has been proven this year in that they wished to bring in cost controls and used their best efforts to do so, but they were completely overpowered by CVC and the five teams."

 

Just now in the press conference, Toto Wolff said that the concept could be explored.



#24 johnmhinds

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 22:00

So it would probably just be cost caps for everyone but the big teams?

Why is it that the F1 Statergy Group has this passion for picking the worst idea in every situation.

#25 Amphicar

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Posted 31 October 2014 - 23:06

I'm not claiming that F1 is in a healthy state or that the ideas currently being tossed around by Bernie and others are desirable - but none of them are unprecedented:

Three car (and larger) teams were commonplace in the 1950s and to a degree, the 1960s;

A two tier F1 existed in the late 1980s, with the richer teams running turbocharged engines and the minnows still using less powerful naturally aspirated Cosworth DFVs. In 1987 there were even separate competitions (the Colin Chapman and Jim Clark Trophies) for the naturally aspirated teams and their drivers;

In the 1967 and 1968 German Grand Prix, F2 cars took part as well as F1 cars - and of course in 1952 the World Championship itself was run to F2 rather than F1 rules;

Customer cars were entirely normal for more than 30 years. Indeed some of the greatest F1 victories were won by drivers of customer cars - Stirling Moss's victory in the 1961 Monaco GP and Jo Siffert's 1968 British Grand Prix win - both achieved in Rob Walker-run customer Lotuses.

So none of these ideas are as radical as they might appear at first sight and they don't necessarily mean the end of the world.

#26 ExFlagMan

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 16:35

So in effect running a customer car, essentially last years constructors car, would make a team a really big F3 team with limited staff. The idea is good but if the FIA bring in regulation changes like they love to who is responsible for the upgrades?

Forget about any regulation related change upgrades, who is going to supply spares - I doubt any F1 team has enough spares left over at the end of a season to keep a customer team through the next season, so unless the top team takes on more staff to make parts( and hence have to charge much more for supplying the cars/spares), as soon as the customer team has any incident they are stuffed for the year.
I guess they could always make their own parts, but then you need staff/facilities/etc, much more than even the biggest F3 team, who, if they have a crash just get parts from Dallara.

How do you regulate who gets which teams cast-off cars, or do you end up in a bidding war for the Mercedes, loser gets the Ferrari - not sure anyone has really thought this customer car idea through.

#27 sopa

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 16:58


So none of these ideas are as radical as they might appear at first sight and they don't necessarily mean the end of the world.

 

I agree.

 

The so-called "end of the world" in F1 context would be if the series ceased to exist altogether, or lost some very fundamental basic, which gives a reason for their existence. I.e completely banning development and using a spec-car would be such, which means F1 would not be F1, but simply just one among many random spec motorsport series in the world.

 

But other than that - all those choices and decisions are just a compromise, with which to face the future.



#28 le chat noir

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Posted 01 November 2014 - 17:12

Its a tricky thing to bring in tho. On the one hand you still have proper F1, with fewer proper teams but a full grid.

On the other it only works if there are enough 'F2' teams to make that championship tenable. I can't see Force India or Sauber choosing to scale down just now. I can see Marrussia and Caterham doing it, but that's not a tenable amount - and then if they flog faster than Sauber...

But it was interesting to see it brought up in that press conference...

Listening to them it felt very much like they were monitoring what was being discussed here. Funny such a rich sport could be swayed by such a cheap technology as this forum

#29 le chat noir

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:29

Idea crops up again, but slightly different - with all (what I was calling F2) cars being of same spec

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116734



#30 Kristian

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:32

Or here's a novel idea... distribute the non-prize fund incomes evenly amongst all teams and all this can be avoided. 



#31 Jamiednm

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:37

I can see this happening, purely because it is in F1s nature to put a loosely-fitted band aid over their issues - and this would 'solve' two problems at once - firstly, there will be a full grid and secondly, the Super GP2 cars will have old V8s to make F1 noisy again.



#32 ollebompa

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:45

What about when a big team, say RedBull, disquises itself as a customer team?



#33 noikeee

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 10:34

"Super GP2"

 

Oh **** off Bernie! You start with single-make spec cars filling up the back of the grid, and end up with a "Car of Tomorrow" type thing like NASCAR in 10 years from now. What happens if the Dallaras start beating the Force Indias? And what if the Dallaras are not allowed to fight them, what's the point of racing them in the first place?

 

Big fat no from me.



#34 sopa

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:24

Looks like F1 might go the way Moto GP went a few years ago. The number of prototypes died out, so they entered production-based CRT bikes to make up the numbers. In first season of such two-tier racing we had 12 prototype bikes and the CRT-s were so far off the pace they didn't add anything to competition except - yeah - making up the numbers. Since then FIM has been fiddling with rules to give a better chance for the production-bikes and this year they have been pretty close in performance.



#35 sopa

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:29

Or here's a novel idea... distribute the non-prize fund incomes evenly amongst all teams and all this can be avoided. 

 

It is in Bernie's nature to try everything else except getting rid of corruption. As long as Bernie can keep his love-relationship with Ferrari, Red Bull and some other (Mercedes) he doesn't care, who are in the midfield, let alone at the back of the field.

 

Bernie may fight against everything else, but against corruption - no, never! Corruption is in his blood and must stay there!



#36 noikeee

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:37

Looks like F1 might go the way Moto GP went a few years ago. The number of prototypes died out, so they entered production-based CRT bikes to make up the numbers. In first season of such two-tier racing we had 12 prototype bikes and the CRT-s were so far off the pace they didn't add anything to competition except - yeah - making up the numbers. Since then FIM has been fiddling with rules to give a better chance for the production-bikes and this year they have been pretty close in performance.

Yes but this is slightly different because the 2nd tier would be single make spec cars.
 
Which is a dangerous, slippery slope to start descending through. Just like 3rd cars or customer cars.


#37 pdac

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:40

Two-Tier F1 .... No!

Might as well just have two series.



#38 sopa

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 11:44

Two-Tier F1 .... No!

Might as well just have two series.

 

Or F1 will develop into kind of Le Mans. Multiple classes on track at the same time. Remember, Bernie has to guarantee at least 20 cars on track for the TV companies! I am not sure there is a clause in that contract, WHICH kind of cars do those 20 need to be or whether they even need to be in the same formula.:D



#39 FerrariV12

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 12:20

Coincidentally I was watching highlights of the 1967 German GP last night, where F2 cars made up the field (although technically in a separate, concurrent race, ineligible for points or mixing it on the starting grid despite Ickx qualifying 3rd fastest in an F2 car IIRC).

 

The difference being that Formula 2 was, well, a formula, just one that happened to have smaller engines as well as slightly different rules. Spec cars for me wouldn't be the same 



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#40 jee

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 12:20

I would not mind having 18 F1 cars and 22 GP2 cars on track at the same time :)



#41 JHSingo

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 12:32

How can they be making such a hash of running such a fantastic sport?

 

Beggars belief...



#42 Jamiednm

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 12:34

I would not mind having 18 F1 cars and 22 GP2 cars on track at the same time :)

 

Me neither - as a one off showcase event. But as a way of running F1? No way!



#43 GhostR

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 13:05

 

Yes but this is slightly different because the 2nd tier would be single make spec cars.
 
Which is a dangerous, slippery slope to start descending through. Just like 3rd cars or customer cars.

 

 

I'd argue the position we find ourselves in now on the proverbial slippery slope - which is a phrase I personally hate as it is rarely accurate when used for prediction - started way back when they decided to outlaw both customer cars and single car teams.

 

I'd support customer cars done right. There's a full constructor team on the grid this year that started out as a chassis customer running just one car. Back then it was a viable way to get into the sport - and I'd support a limited form of that coming back. I'd be happy if teams like Manor were allowed to buy the basic chassis from another team, and then be required to produce their own components to fit on that chassis (their own wings, engine covers, floors, suspension, etc). I'd be even happier if they were required to run a different engine and design any chassis modifications required to accept a different engine themselves. Imagine seeing Manor GP next year running a Ferrari engine in a Williams chassis with their own bespoke aero kit. I'd be quite happy with that myself.

 

This whole hate against customer cars we see these days (from both fans and teams) annoys me a lot. It didn't destroy F1 back when it was allowed, and a thought-through set of rules allowing it now wouldn't destroy F1 either. I'd argue it would enhance it (where would LMP1 and 2 be now if customer cars had been banned?)



#44 Knowlesy

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 13:35

Some quite good ideas in the OP, I'd be happy with that.



#45 Rinehart

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 14:02

A 2-tier system in F1 is the way to go.

 

Hopefully they could get to a 6+6 grid (24 cars)

 

Out of the £600 odd million FOM income shared between the teams as prize money/bonus payments they should spread say £450m between the 6 tier 1 (constructors) who would be running with budgets of between £100m and £250m as they do now, constructing their cars and backed by a works engine partner (so ideally we need Audi and Ford to join the party). And then the 6 tier 2 teams, whether they are running contemporary customer cars, year old customer cars or Super GP2 cars, the FIA just need to access what there is the best demand/business case for and spread the remaining £150m between these tier 2 teams who should be running at budgets of between £5m and £10m. That is achievable under a GP2 plus framework OR a customer car + GP2 engine framework. 

 

I would think the supply and demand would dictate that there would be no need for any of the 6 constructor teams to have B teams (in the tier 2 category) and I would go as far as to BAN B teams. I've never liked seeing Red Bulls finding it particularly easy to overtake a Torro Rosso, or for Sauber to vote as Ferrari say with their bums in the air.

 

Obviously there would be scope for contractual agreements between Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams to run drivers, supply parts etc, but I would outlaw ownership if possible. 

 

The key would be that tier 2 could run a much cheaper traditional engine than the tier 1 V6 hybrids. This would be a good thing for the works manufacturers as no doubt they would be performing better and this would help them market the virtues of hybrid technology to the general public - the whole point of it!!!

 

I'd keep scoring the same format. All drivers would qualify for the WDC regardless of the class of car. But I would run a Tier 1 (Constructors) and Tier 2 (Customers) championship - so if a Customer Car finished in 3rd place overall, it would win 25 points for the Customer championship.

 

As ever this will be all about money. But since RBR, Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren, Williams and Lotus usually don't finish in the bottom 6 of the constructors championship, then sharing the £150 odd million that Constructors 7-12 win under the current format, between the customer teams, is not actually taking any money from their pot. If anything, if tier 2 is very cost effective to run in, an argument can be made to split the pots say £500m / £100m or even more in favour of the 6 Constructor teams - by virtue of the fact that the cost to compete has been brought down.

 

Since some teams such as Sauber & Marussia are never going to with the WCC, it makes more sense that they've got something worthwhile to aim at - the Tier 2 championship. 

 

As I understand it there are only a couple of seconds between a GP2 car and an F1 car at present and top teams are running at budgets of less than £3m. Their advertising real estate is going to be worth more in front of the F1 cameras, so this sounds like a workable and sustainable model to me.

 

Without overcomplicating it, if possible, I would create a promotion/relegation between GP2/Super GP2 status. 

 

The biggest issue is that up to 6 of Sauber, Lotus, Marussia, Caterham, Torro Rosso, Force India are no longer going to need their constructor infrastructure, which is going to lead to redundancies, shrinkage and the need to flog a lot of kit such as wind tunnels (unless they can diversify that capacity to supply). But they're all staring down the barrel of insolvency anyway, so this appears to be by far the lesser of two evils.

 

Frankly, the big boys have got to agree to something. 



#46 EthanM

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 14:06

the problem with tiers is the audience falls asleep midway through the explanation of the system. Plus does anybody except serious anoraks even remember Jonathan Palmer won the Jim Clark Trophy in 1987 (ie he was "champion" of the normally aspirated car tier)? Doubt it.



#47 Knowlesy

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 14:19

Well no, but that was because it was a one-off thing 27 years ago.

#48 le chat noir

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 17:57

And the ideas in this thread (at least) only split the team championships to constructor/customer, leaving the drivers in the same championship as each other (though if we have a qualifying cup, a tier 2 cup is also viable)



#49 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 20:27

If Bernie thinks F1 can run with 14-16 cars and fulfil its contracts why is he wasting so much of his time on ideas like 3rd cars and "Super GP2"?



#50 Turboflame

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 20:45

Best thing i think he proposed in years. The great manufacturers will have their showcase for their 'advanced' technology. But also the small teams could do their thing without the extreme bill that sooner or later will be fatal for them. Young talented drivers must have the chance to 'have a shot at it' at a small team. Otherwise the sportivity of f1 will be completely gone.