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Great Pole Positions.


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#151 sennafan24

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 19:53

sopa, on 06 Jan 2015 - 19:17, said:

By the way, despite how much people like to romanticize about it, this is not "god-given" that Senna would have taken pole in 1994 at Monaco. Just because he did in the first three race weekends, but each weekend is different. Senna wasn't always on pole at Monaco, for instance in 1993 was third on the grid and behind Schumacher, when they were driving different cars. They were driving different cars in 1994 as well. But Schumacher was every bit of capable putting in an excellent Monaco lap and take pole, especially in excellent cars, which the early 1994 Benetton was and he was on pole by almost a second there.

I get what you are saying, but the Williams was dialled in by Monaco.

 

I think Senna being on pole is a fairly safe bet. The 3 poles Senna scored at the start of 1994 came in a Williams car which was not dialled in, and terribly inconsistent lap on lap.

 

In 1993, Senna's McLaren was hindered by less powerful engine, and despite the driving aids it had, really struggled to be tuned in and work to its optimum ability. This was why Andretti left later in the season, as when Ford upgraded their engines at Silverstone, they had horrible problems with fuel efficiency and their electronics (which greatly hindered their power). These issues were not fully fixed until Andretti left (the fixed their electronics/fuel issues and got a new chassis right after Andretti left, poor sod)

 

If you gave Senna an equivalent car to the rest of the field in the early 90's, he would be one pole the vast majority of the time. Some days he would be caught out, as Mika, Prost and Berger did on occasion, so I am not saying Senna would be on pole at Monaco for certain. Just that he would probably have taken pole when you consider what he would have to work with. 


Edited by sennafan24, 06 January 2015 - 19:53.


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#152 sopa

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 20:11

sennafan24, on 06 Jan 2015 - 19:53, said:

I get what you are saying, but the Williams was dialled in by Monaco.

 

I think Senna being on pole is a fairly safe bet. The 3 poles Senna scored at the start of 1994 came in a Williams car which was not dialled in, and terribly inconsistent lap on lap.

 

 

Looking at qualifying performances, I get the impression Williams was dialled in by the time of the French Grand Prix. Well, at least if you use Damon Hill as a benchmark, but depends, how reliable as a benchmark you consider it. Why do you think Monaco?



#153 sennafan24

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 20:26

sopa, on 06 Jan 2015 - 20:11, said:

Looking at qualifying performances, I get the impression Williams was dialled in by the time of the French Grand Prix. Well, at least if you use Damon Hill as a benchmark, but depends, how reliable as a benchmark you consider it. Why do you think Monaco?

I have always been led to believe the Williams car received updates at San Marino which improved the car (ironically that was the fateful weekend of Senna's death, but lets not get into the specifics of that). I am sure they got further updates as the season went on. 

 

You raise a point though, Hill had a horrible weekend at Monaco (1.5 seconds off Schumi in qualifying). Hill did win the race after Monaco (Spain), however he was 2nd at Canada (by a mile, and a second off in qualifying). So, if Hill is a decent measure, the car was still inconsistent after San Marino.

 

I think Senna would have done better than Hill at Monaco and Canada, even if the car was still difficult (check Brazil, Senna was finding chunks more out of the car than Hill). However, I agree it is debatable whether he could extract enough to win at those tracks (or at least secure pole). Maybe it was France where Williams fully tuned in their car, or at least had it close to optimum. 

 

So yeah, things are pretty open ended. 


Edited by sennafan24, 06 January 2015 - 20:27.


#154 George Costanza

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 23:44

For those saying Ayrton wouldn't be 1 sec quicker at Monaco than anyone else for 1994, (even Schumacher) look at 1992 Monaco GP when he placed a full 1.2 seconds quicker than Schumacher in the McLaren-Honda of 1992 (which was the weakest car he ever McLaren drove IMO). The 1993 car was actually a great car made (ask Ron Dennis about that 1993 McLaren). It just had a lousy engine deal.

 

Yes Schu beat him in 1993 to second place, but I'd consider that a one off for Ayrton around Monaco....


Edited by George Costanza, 06 January 2015 - 23:56.


#155 George Costanza

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 23:47

Another great historic pole postion......... Mika Hakkinen  1998 Brazilian GP...



#156 Mila

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 23:48

DampMongoose, on 02 Jan 2015 - 11:10, said:

Got to be Keke.  160mph average lap at the proper Silverstone, in the damp with a slow puncture and a moustache.

 

 

Yeah, an extraordinary set of circumstances--well, not the 'stache so much, but the damp track and the deflating tire. He cleared second-place man Piquet by some six tenths--on a track that had a very short lap time in the '85 configuration, with those cars, anyway. There wasn't the greatest amount of run-off at Silverstone, then, either.


Edited by Mila, 07 January 2015 - 15:13.


#157 PlatenGlass

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 23:54

In 1994, the Benetton was better suited to slower tracks, and Monaco played to its strengths. So yes, the Williams might have been improved for Monaco, but it probably would have been relatively speaking one of its weaker tracks compared to the Benetton, specific point-in-the-season form aside (tracks like Hockenheim and Monza being the opposite). My money would have been on Schumacher, but I wouldn't have put the house on.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 06 January 2015 - 23:56.


#158 sennafan24

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 00:51

George Costanza, on 06 Jan 2015 - 23:44, said:

For those saying Ayrton wouldn't be 1 sec quicker at Monaco than anyone else for 1994, (even Schumacher) look at 1992 Monaco GP when he placed a full 1.2 seconds quicker than Schumacher in the McLaren-Honda of 1992 (which was the weakest car he ever McLaren drove IMO). The 1993 car was actually a great car made (ask Ron Dennis about that 1993 McLaren). It just had a lousy engine deal.

 

Yes Schu beat him in 1993 to second place, but I'd consider that a one off for Ayrton around Monaco....

The 1992 McLaren was actually quite strong at most tracks. It just had terrible reliability. 

 

- Senna-  5 Mechanical DNF's

 

The 1993 McLaren was a great car on paper, but a **** to get working at its optimum. They got some higher spec engines at Silverstone, but they could not get a handle of their fuel efficiency and electronics. Which is why Senna had such a blip mid-season.

 

PlatenGlass - Yep, that makes sense  :up:


Edited by sennafan24, 07 January 2015 - 00:58.


#159 George Costanza

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 01:59

PlatenGlass, on 06 Jan 2015 - 23:54, said:

In 1994, the Benetton was better suited to slower tracks, and Monaco played to its strengths. So yes, the Williams might have been improved for Monaco, but it probably would have been relatively speaking one of its weaker tracks compared to the Benetton, specific point-in-the-season form aside (tracks like Hockenheim and Monza being the opposite). My money would have been on Schumacher, but I wouldn't have put the house on.

 

I disagree about Schumacher being on pole. He was never quicker than Ayrton when he was alive. A better racer (even that can be debated), yes I agree but in one lap speed? Ayrton would win probably 7 out of 10.



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#160 William Hunt

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 03:09

the greatest pole position was no doubt from Keke Rosberg at Silverstone 1985 in the Williams FW10, many consider it the most exciting lap anyone ever drove in F1.



#161 hittheapex

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 08:15

Is there any video of the famous Rosberg 85 Silverstone lap? I have never found any.



#162 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 09:55

William Hunt, on 07 Jan 2015 - 03:09, said:

the greatest pole position was no doubt from Keke Rosberg at Silverstone 1985 in the Williams FW10, many consider it the most exciting lap anyone ever drove in F1.

 

It was certainly better than a fictional 'what-if' pole position for Senna in 1994, which is what this thread has descended into. 



#163 sopa

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 11:23

George Costanza, on 06 Jan 2015 - 23:44, said:

For those saying Ayrton wouldn't be 1 sec quicker at Monaco than anyone else for 1994, (even Schumacher) look at 1992 Monaco GP when he placed a full 1.2 seconds quicker than Schumacher in the McLaren-Honda of 1992 (which was the weakest car he ever McLaren drove IMO). The 1993 car was actually a great car made (ask Ron Dennis about that 1993 McLaren). It just had a lousy engine deal.

 

Yes Schu beat him in 1993 to second place, but I'd consider that a one off for Ayrton around Monaco....

 

In 1992 Berger outqualified Schumacher at Monaco as well. The McLarens were 3rd and 5th on the grid with the Benettons in 6th and 7th. If anything, the McLaren was the better car on that circuit. 1994 is a different ballgame.



#164 sopa

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 11:28

George Costanza, on 07 Jan 2015 - 01:59, said:

I disagree about Schumacher being on pole. He was never quicker than Ayrton when he was alive. A better racer (even that can be debated), yes I agree but in one lap speed? Ayrton would win probably 7 out of 10.

 

7 out of 10 in the same team I gather? However, Schumacher and Senna were driving different cars, and all this guesswork here is largely based on how their respective cars would have performed on each circuit.



#165 sopa

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 11:31

hittheapex, on 07 Jan 2015 - 08:15, said:

Is there any video of the famous Rosberg 85 Silverstone lap? I have never found any.

 

Interested in this as well. I see that this lap has got quite a lot of votes here.:)



#166 DampMongoose

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 12:18

sopa, on 07 Jan 2015 - 11:31, said:

Interested in this as well. I see that this lap has got quite a lot of votes here. :)

 

I don't believe there is any... but to give you the flavour here is some race footage showing the almost 'proper' Silverstone...

 

http://youtu.be/NMzJ5iBcBuY

 

Edit: All the other parts are there too, so you can watch the whole race by the look of it...


Edited by DampMongoose, 07 January 2015 - 12:21.


#167 hittheapex

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Posted 07 January 2015 - 17:59

It's bad luck indeed that there does not seem to be footage of that famous Rosberg lap. There was some decent qualifying coverage in 1985 but it seems like it slipped through the net.



#168 RubberKubrick

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 17:45

sopa, on 06 Jan 2015 - 19:17, said:

By the way, despite how much people like to romanticize about it, this is not "god-given" that Senna would have taken pole in 1994 at Monaco. Just because he did in the first three race weekends, but each weekend is different. Senna wasn't always on pole at Monaco, for instance in 1993 was third on the grid and behind Schumacher, when they were driving different cars. They were driving different cars in 1994 as well. But Schumacher was every bit of capable putting in an excellent Monaco lap and take pole, especially in excellent cars, which the early 1994 Benetton was and he was on pole by almost a second there.

In 1993, Senna suffered an accident (in St. Devote(?) in a free-practice session) and injured his thumb as a consequence (as far as I know). Maybe he was handicapped because of that. Hence the gap?

Besides, Patrese who was only 0.565 seconds behind Senna in the 1993 Monaco qualifying grid, sat, like MSC, in a B193, as well.

Now, would a 39 y.o. Patrese in a car which is, regarding to some forum writers, inferior to the McLaren, still only be 0.565 seconds behind Senna, although Patrese sitting in an inferior Benetton B193 compared to Senna?

No, the B193 was the car to have in Monaco1993 (after the FW15C, of course).

Geee, even in the same material, quadruples couldn't decrease the gap under one second to Senna. And a 39 yo Patrese could decrease it to 0.565 seconds in an inferior car?

Edited by RubberKubrick, 05 February 2015 - 17:46.


#169 ensign14

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 23:11

Imagonna open this up a bit to perhaps the greatest pole in the history of the World Championship.

 

And it didn't come in a Formula 1 race.  It didn't even come in a Grand Prix.

 

Hie yourself hence to Indianapolis, 1955, where the fabled qualifying is underway.  The position is complicated.  Cars are placed in order firstly by the date on which they qualified, and secondly by their speed.  So you can be the fastest in the field, and start 33rd and last, if you are the only chap to qualify on the last day.

 

Conversely, you can be the slowest in the field, and start from pole, if you're the only chap who qualifies on the first day.

 

Bear that in mind.

 

You have up to 3 goes to qualify.  You go out for practice laps.  If you want a qualifying run, you let the chaps know (in this era, there are no chapesses, they are verboten from Gasoline Alley),  go for a warm-up, and then, if you want to go for it, raise your arm.  Take 4 laps and that's it.  You've qualified.

 

Which is a problem if you are dog-slow.  Because if 33 cars are quicker, you are out.  And you can't hop back and have a second punt.  Each car can only set one qualifying time.

 

So, if your first couple of laps are indeed dog-slow, you can wave them off.  Pull into the pits.  You don't record a time - but that's Strike One.  You are allowed two.  So on your third you have to complete regardless.

 

The upshot of this is that to qualify on pole you must qualify on the first day qualifying times are allowed.  The only way you can if you don't is if nobody does.

 

So on Pole Day in 1955 you are probably getting a little annoyed.  Because it's a bit windy.  And nobody is going out.  The old hands know that the wind will knock a few mph off the time.

 

Which is a problem for the Speedway.  Because if nobody qualifies, they have to refund the spectator tickets.

 

Getting to closing time and nobody has gone out.  The team owners have made a pact.  Nobody will go out so everyone has an equal shot.

 

Thing is, nobody has told Jim Robbins about this.  Robbins is so pro-Indy that he will leave a bequest in his will to enter a car in his name for a decade afterwards.  His family have no chance of funding it so they carpet out their pit as a sort of executive box. 

 

Robbins has a ropey old Stevens upright, a dinosaur in the days of lower-slung lay-down roadsters.  Not had a sniff of success in the fifties.  Driver Jerry Hoyt is only 26 but has a decent amount of experience - but no real success.  The combo is not favoured.

 

Perhaps that's why nobody thought to include Robbins in the cabal.  And perhaps someone from the 16th and Georgetown offices had had a quiet word with their mate Jim.  Because, with a few minutes before the gun goes to end qualification, the maroon and cream number 23 is being pushed to the end of pit lane.  Hoyt is going to give it a go.

 

And go he does.  He manages to squeeze out four precarious laps.  Everyone was tipping 140mph plus as being the minimum required to get in the field.  He's only just there.  But he has stuck in 4 laps, and it is a qualifying run.  Hoyt is on pole.

 

And now comes the mad scramble.  Tony Bettenhausen is the first to get going and he sets a blister of a lap - but cannot keep up his momentum.  Second.  By a scant 0.11 seconds over 10 miles.  The popular Pat O'Connor got to 3rd in line but his first two laps are 138s and he is waved off.  And that's it.  Qualifying over.  Jack McGrath will be the fastest man in the field - but he starts behind the day 1 qualifiers.

 

So Hoyt, a 100-1 shot, has nicked pole position.  And, technically, for a year, he is the youngest pole-sitter in the World Championship.

 

Of course, he still had to be one of the 33 fastest, but conditions do not really improve.  In fact only 9 will go faster than him. 

 

Hoyt did not have time to enjoy his moment.  He didn't lead the first lap.  Indeed he wasn't even in the first three.  By the time the race had 10 in the book he was already out of the top ten.  McGrath sprinted into the lead for the first three, before Vukovich swept past.  They diced for the first quarter of the race and looked to make it a classic.  Then McGrath slowed, and pitted, mechanics wrenching out the spark plugs confirming he was out, leaving Vukovich clean and green, and heading for an unparallelled hat-trick.

 

And then that happened on the back stretch.

 

Hardly anyone had noticed that the pole-sitter was already out of the race.  Oil leak. 

 

The winner of the 500 was Bob Sweikert.  He ran a sprint car team as well.  Sprint cars were like Indy cars, only slightly smaller, and considerably more deadly.  Hoyt was his team-mate.  Two months after Indy, Sweikert and Hoyt had a go at a sprintcar race in Oklahoma.  The dirt track was typically rutted and Hoyt was flipped by one of the holes.  Back then the roll bar was the driver.  Hoyt could not survive.  In the final race of the year McGrath was also killed in a Champcar crash.  And to complete the story Sweikert died in a sprint car crash a year and a month after his greatest day.



#170 Mansell5

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 23:26

Senna Monaco 88 and 90, perfection.



#171 asdf24

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 00:20

In my recent memory, 2011 Korean GP pole.



#172 Fomalhaut

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:21

Raikkonen at Nurburgring 2003.

 

 

 

And Jarno Trulli in Monaco 2004. That was something else!

 



#173 George Costanza

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 03:33

Mansell5, on 05 Feb 2015 - 23:26, said:

Senna Monaco 88 and 90, perfection.

 

No love for Ayrton 1989? even better than 1990, IMO.



#174 BlackGold

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 03:59

Not official the Pole, but to me it was one of the strongest quali I ever saw of Schumacher.

 



#175 bub

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 14:08

I don't think it has been mentioned yet but Rosberg China 2012 was quite good.



#176 GoldenColt

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 14:16

Lewis Hamilton, Spain 2012. Yes, he was disqualified from qualifying due to being underfueled but it was still an amazing lap. Half a second faster than anyone else.

 

http://www.dailymoti...le-onboard_auto



#177 Collombin

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 22:08

ensign14, on 05 Feb 2015 - 23:11, said:

Imagonna open this up a bit to perhaps the greatest pole in the history of the World Championship.


I love the story, and have read countless accounts of it (the one in the 1985 Hungness being the most evocative), but to put it in this particular thread seems absurd. There will be a luckiest or least deserving pole thread one day I'm sure.

#178 RSNS

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 23:08

Many thanks, I had never seen this.
 

BlackGold, on 06 Feb 2015 - 03:59, said:

Not official the Pole, but to me it was one of the strongest quali I ever saw of Schumacher.

 



#179 wj_gibson

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 23:27

Tell you what I think the best pole position I have ever seen is, and that was Mika Hakkinen at Imola in 2000, making up a good 0.5sec in a final sector that was conventionally regarded as having no time to find. In the days since qualifying was broadcast live in the UK, that is the single best lap I have ever seen.

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#180 Alfisti

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 02:56

Trulli at Monaco in 04 was as good as I have seen. 



#181 George Costanza

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 03:30

BlackGold, on 06 Feb 2015 - 03:59, said:

Not official the Pole, but to me it was one of the strongest quali I ever saw of Schumacher.

 

 

Given his age and circumstances, yes.



#182 f1paparazzo

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 04:49

MIKA HAKKINEN @ Imola 2000 Hands down !! :up:  It was Hakkinen's 3rd straight pole of the year. He would have grabbed pole at Suzuka as well had it not being for boofhead Alesi (former ferrari driver, driving a ferrari powered sauber) cynically and purposely spun his car in front of Mika ruining his last (Magenta) lap, thus handing pole to $chumacher



#183 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 13:02

I'm fairly sure Alesi was driving for Prost in 2000.

#184 f1paparazzo

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 13:12

wj_gibson, on 07 Feb 2015 - 13:02, said:

I'm fairly sure Alesi was driving for Prost in 2000.

Your absolutely right, I got mixed up with Suzuka 1999 :stoned:



#185 ch103

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 13:59

BlackGold, on 06 Feb 2015 - 03:59, said:

Not official the Pole, but to me it was one of the strongest quali I ever saw of Schumacher.

 

Fantastic watching Michael win the pole when he was in his 40's!  GOAT as far as I am concerned.



#186 xmoonrakerx

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 14:18

https://www.youtube....h?v=viwllFnipds

 

weird noone mentions this one! Hakkinen San Marino 2000...god! what a lap



#187 wj_gibson

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 14:58

xmoonrakerx, on 07 Feb 2015 - 14:18, said:

https://www.youtube....h?v=viwllFnipds

weird noone mentions this one! Hakkinen San Marino 2000...god! what a lap


It is - through a couple of us already did. For the record I regard this as the best single qualifying lap I've ever seen. I appreciate Senna did better ones but those weren't broadcast.

#188 Risil

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 15:25

E.B., on 06 Feb 2015 - 22:08, said:

I love the story, and have read countless accounts of it (the one in the 1985 Hungness being the most evocative), but to put it in this particular thread seems absurd. There will be a luckiest or least deserving pole thread one day I'm sure.

 

All great events hang by a hair. Said a great (and lucky) man.



#189 GoldenColt

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 15:37

RSNS, on 06 Feb 2015 - 23:08, said:

Many thanks, I had never seen this.
 

 

I just love how Michael's adjusting the brake-bias in the middle of Louis Chiron.



#190 AJFIN

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 15:39

That Monaco 2012 lap by Schumacher is fantastic. Look at his left hand after Tabac. He drives through the swimming pool chicane with one hand, because he needs to adjust the brake bias. You can see it in 1 minute mark. 

 

And here is Anthony Davidson analysis of the lap:

 

http://www.dailymoti...onaco-2012_auto



#191 Collombin

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 15:49

Risil, on 07 Feb 2015 - 15:25, said:

All great events hang by a hair. Said a great (and lucky) man.


So let's plump for Castellotti's heroics in the very next WDC event, or Agabashian at Indy 1952 pushing a very heavy turbocharged diesel to the very edge of its tyres' lives.

#192 Risil

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 15:56

Well, why not? If pole positions were meant to represent the driver most likely to win the race, they wouldn't be awarded on the basis of a handful of laps.

 

Also those Cummins diesels were incredible.


Edited by Risil, 07 February 2015 - 15:57.


#193 Collombin

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 16:01

Risil, on 07 Feb 2015 - 15:56, said:

Also those Cummins diesels were incredible.


They did have an enormous advantage thanks to the rules though (a 6.6 litre turbo!) and I think Vukie and Chet Miller both actually qualified faster. But for sheer bravery there are few poles to better it.

#194 Nonesuch

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 16:53

The 2001 Hungarian Grand Prix saw one of the more dominant performances by Michael Schumacher.

 

Not only did he only drive six of his allotted twelve laps, he drove his last lap 20 minutes before the end of qualifying!

 

Neither his teammate nor the McLarens got anywhere close, and when the flag was waved, he was 0.8 seconds clear of the rest of the field. :up:



#195 George Costanza

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 23:23

Nonesuch, on 07 Feb 2015 - 16:53, said:

The 2001 Hungarian Grand Prix saw one of the more dominant performances by Michael Schumacher.

 

Not only did he only drive six of his allotted twelve laps, he drove his last lap 20 minutes before the end of qualifying!

 

Neither his teammate nor the McLarens got anywhere close, and when the flag was waved, he was 0.8 seconds clear of the rest of the field. :up:

 

2000 was better. He set the pole lap on the very frist lap he was out.



#196 RubberKubrick

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 00:51

ch103, on 07 Feb 2015 - 13:59, said:

Fantastic watching Michael win the pole when he was in his 40's! GOAT as far as I am concerned.


Other pole positions by guys in their 40's: Monza1982 (IIRC not mentioned here) and the already mentioned Adelaide1994.

#197 KTownDevil

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 09:47

Vettel Melbourne 2011. .8 faster than the rest.

 

http://www.dailymoti...-melbourne_tech



#198 Taxi

Taxi
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Posted 08 February 2015 - 11:43

Top of my head:

 

Senna Monaco 1998 - He claimed he was in some other dimention. And the result was something like that

 

Alonso Hungary 2003

Alonso Germany 2012

 

Hakkinen nurburgring 1997

Hakkinen Monaco 1998

Hakkinen Imola 2000

 

Trulli Monaco 2003

 

Schumacher monaco 1996

Schumacher /Hakkinen Suzuka 1998-2000

 

Montoya GB 2002/3?

 

Raikkonen Monaco 2005

Raikkonen Spa 2007

Raikkonen Monza 2005

 

Fisichella Spa 2009



#199 RubberKubrick

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 13:11

Alonso in Singapur2010. The car had no right to be on pole.

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#200 LORDBYRON

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 14:11

Kimi raikkonen's pole in spa 2002 was the best iv seen in while