196 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

what about next year tho? Their team will know each other and the hardware, they'll have new systems to integrate which will hopefully improve performance, perhaps this year was just baby steps.

[brakedisc]

Looks like they are recruiting new people. Perhaps enough is enough.

[desmo]

I do hope they return to LM next year with a developed car, it would be interesting to see how far they've managed to take the concept.  They now operate in an environment of massively lowered expectations, which is a very nice place to be sometimes.

[brakedisc]

Plug pulled for this year as far as the racing goes.

[desmo]

http://www.sportscar...ws15Q_1603.html

 

Project is on for 2016.  KERS still not "running" :shouldbeafacepalmsmiley:

[imaginesix]

http://www.sportscar...ws15Q_1603.html
 
Project is on for 2016.  KERS still not "running" :shouldbeafacepalmsmiley:

The problem now with this project now is that there's so much riding on it, that if the plain and simple truth were that the system can never be designed to operate as intended, nobody could just step up and say so. The whole project is being led by the technology systems, rather than the other way around.

[desmo]

No, I think if NISMO concluded the project didn't have development potential in light of last year's LM fiasco it'd have been quietly shelved.  Lacking AWD/KERS, it probably has no hope of being competitive.

[Greg Locock]

Why are AWD or KERS insuperable challenges for Nissan?

[imaginesix]

Not saying they are, but the packaging is very convoluted, and the car's success relies on very low drag while having many tightly packaged heat sources. Might be mission impossible.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Do we even know the source of their ERS troubles? Most likely flywheels? Motors are plentiful off the shelf and the electronics side of things should be relatively simple to work out. Going with flywheels for energy storage is the oddball, has anyone other than Audi used them successfully? 

[Lee Nicolle]

http://www.sportscar...ws15Q_1603.html

 

Project is on for 2016.  KERS still not "running" :shouldbeafacepalmsmiley:

6 months plus after it was supposed to be ready they still have a half complete mechanical package.

Even with everything working at it should i doubt that it will ever be fast enough [though less slow!] And after all that will it be reliable? Probably not.

[saudoso]

Binned.

[BRG]

And it was so promising too.....

[saudoso]

What's next? Five wheels? Caterpillars?

[desmo]

You knew when they still *a year later* couldn't apparently sort the regen aspect of the hybrid or the RWD even enough to track test those elements properly that they didn't posses the expertise or resources to fairly test the concept.

[Magoo]

Ended pretty ugly, too. The program just moved into the former Forsythe Racing facility on Georgetown Rd. last summer. Yesterday morning, some of employees were not allowed into the building, while others were notified of their canning via email. Christmas week, how lovely. 

 

 

 

http://www.roadandtr...es-over-e-mail/

 

 

 

[Kelpiecross]

I suspect  that the general "front wheel drive racing car" idea is quite practical  in small cars - like one litre or so.         

[imaginesix]

So do we call this experiment failed, or is it incomplete since they never got the intended drivetrain in place to even be able to test it?

[Chubby_Deuce]

Seems more like failed execution. That's not to say that the concept would win races in someone else's hands but we certainly never saw its actual potential.

 

The last two times Nissan/NISMO have tried to run a prototype racing program they've made a total mess out of it. What's the deal? Are they naive about the cost/benefit payoff of this kind of stuff and get cold feet after a year or so?

[Canuck]

Ended pretty ugly, too. The program just moved into the former Forsythe Racing facility on Georgetown Rd. last summer. Yesterday morning, some of employees were not allowed into the building, while others were notified of their canning via email. Christmas week, how lovely.


http://www.roadandtr...es-over-e-mail/

It's not the corporation's fault though. It's for the good of the shareholders don't you know.

[Magoo]

It's not the corporation's fault though. It's for the good of the shareholders don't you know.

 

 

Middle managers usually aren't pure evil. This looks like loud screaming suddenly commenced in the executive suites and people starting pushing the red buttons. 

 

From the start, the program was stricken with confusion and delays. Maybe this is just one more final symptom. 

[Lee Nicolle]

Ended pretty ugly, too. The program just moved into the former Forsythe Racing facility on Georgetown Rd. last summer. Yesterday morning, some of employees were not allowed into the building, while others were notified of their canning via email. Christmas week, how lovely. 

 

 

 

http://www.roadandtr...es-over-e-mail/

While very poor I am sure every employee had a fair idea it was coming. The team and the car was a LEMON.  from day 1.

[Canuck]

Middle managers usually aren't pure evil. This looks like loud screaming suddenly commenced in the executive suites and people starting pushing the red buttons.

From the start, the program was stricken with confusion and delays. Maybe this is just one more final symptom.

No single raindrop believes it's responsible for the flood. While I would agree on the general lack of evil, someone somewhere in that org, made this choice. Now, maybe it was like the last shutdown I was involved with where everyone was notified several weeks in advance - still a shock but not left standing on the sidewalk trying to process what happened 5 minutes ago and lots of time to try and make a soft landing elsewhere - inside or outside the org.

Or not. CFOs make the decision about numbers, not people. Easier to ignore the human impact of what you're doing by focusing on numbers and pointing to shareholders or the management levels above you as the driver.

[Magoo]

No single raindrop believes it's responsible for the flood. While I would agree on the general lack of evil, someone somewhere in that org, made this choice. Now, maybe it was like the last shutdown I was involved with where everyone was notified several weeks in advance - still a shock but not left standing on the sidewalk trying to process what happened 5 minutes ago and lots of time to try and make a soft landing elsewhere - inside or outside the org.

Or not. CFOs make the decision about numbers, not people. Easier to ignore the human impact of what you're doing by focusing on numbers and pointing to shareholders or the management levels above you as the driver.

 

Can't argue with any of that. 

[Greg Locock]

Two managers I know had nervous breakdowns (or whatever it is called these days) shortly after a headcount reduction, and in one case I am 99% sure it was the stress of choosing who to fire, and firing them. i would think that in a racing team where you live in each other's pockets it would be worse.

[Magoo]

Headcount reductions are a poison, a disease. 

 

For the unfamiliar, headcount terminations really have only one purpose: to clean up the financial statements in a superficial way to make the company appear more attractive to A) Wall Street analysts and institutional investors or B) potential buyout and merger partners. 

 

There is no true financial benefit and in the end, the cost is actually greater because the work must still get done -- but now it will be done by temp workers and contractors, at greater cost and lower efficiency. The company will merely look better on the balance sheets for the next quarter or two. 

 

This also happens to be the exact opposite of what virtually all companies claim they do. They say they "invest in their people;" they say they "invest in the future." How many times do you hear that? In truth, the "investment" is only in the stock options and incentive plans of the executive board members. 

Edited by Magoo, 28 December 2015 - 12:57.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Corporations are people, but not your friends.

[Fat Boy]

Ended pretty ugly, too. The program just moved into the former Forsythe Racing facility on Georgetown Rd. last summer. Yesterday morning, some of employees were not allowed into the building, while others were notified of their canning via email. Christmas week, how lovely. 

 

 

 

http://www.roadandtr...es-over-e-mail/

 

It's Nissan. Remember last time? SSDD.

[Fat Boy]

Two managers I know had nervous breakdowns (or whatever it is called these days) shortly after a headcount reduction, and in one case I am 99% sure it was the stress of choosing who to fire, and firing them. i would think that in a racing team where you live in each other's pockets it would be worse.

 

It's much easier if you're a socio/psychopath.

 

My guess is that it's actually easier in racing for a couple reasons. First, when a team goes under, everyone gets the can. The team manager might stay on an extra month or so to sell off the crap left behind, but he's looking for a job just like everyone else. Second, We expect it. Even from well supported teams, it happens all the freakin' time. I could have the teams I'm working with right now call me and tell me it's over and I wouldn't bat an eye. It's just how it is. I don't like it, but I accept it.

 

You get on the phone, call your friends and make connections. During this off-season I've helped 4-5 guys I know get hooked up. You might fight like hell on the track, but off of it, the clowns of the circus pretty much stick together.

[Fat Boy]

Headcount reductions are a poison, a disease. 

 

I would call them a symptom of the disease, but I see where you're going with the analogy and don't disagree.

[DogEarred]

In situations like these which happen all too often in motor sport, especially in F1, the question seldom asked is 'who is responsible for this situation & why aren't they 'let go'?

[Fat Boy]

In situations like these which happen all too often in motor sport, especially in F1, the question seldom asked is 'who is responsible for this situation & why aren't they 'let go'?

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It seems like there are people 'under the bus' all the time. I've never been on the inside, but it seems like there is a revolving door of names with some teams.

 

With others, the money gets spent and the team is shutting down. Placing blame is kind of a moot point.

[BRG]

If I was Carlos Ghosn, I would certainly want to know who it was that had sold me such a massive pup.  And can them.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If it was easy enough for you to spot the failures, maybe we should sack Ghosn. 

[Fat Boy]

Information is coming out about this deal from those involved. Soooooo glad they didn't want me.

[Greg Locock]

I see we have an attack of the Monday morning quarterbacks.

 

Some innovative ideas need money pumped into them to find out if they'll work or not. Inevitably that means some will fail after having money spent on them. If a company could reliably spend shareholder's cash only on successful investigations then that would be terrific, but that's unicorn talk.

 

To be honest I went through 3 stages on this project (1) i is silly but then (2) it does partly solve the open wheeler interlocking wheel problem, and looks pretty neat followed by (3) why does that make it a good architecture for LM ? I haven't seen a great answer for (3) tho I'm not sayng there isn't one, but I think as a solution for interlocking and a grasped attempt at a significant change in architecture it is, or was, a nice try. 

[saudoso]

Are you mixing the front wheel drive with the delta wing? How's that the FWD fixes the open wheeler wheel interlock problem?

 

And that's not monday morning quarterback, there's a lot of I told you so going on here. I guess some people are not taking Bowlby assuming to be the next coming of Colin Chapman very well.

Edited by saudoso, 13 January 2016 - 15:18.

[Fat Boy]

I see we have an attack of the Monday morning quarterbacks.

 

 

No, no, a 'Monday morning QB' is some I-told-you-so guy who never had anything to do with the team. Last week/weekend I had the opportunity to spend a good chunk of time with guys who were on the team and find out a little about the inner workings. That's a completely different kettle of fish. It might be hearsay, but it's first-hand hearsay.

 

Look through this thread. I've been nothing but positive. I still think it was a great attempt an trying to tackle a problem with a 'clean-sheet' approach. In the end, we'll never know if the logic was correct or not because the car never really turned a wheel in anything close to a full spec. All they really did was limp around the track and make laps. Even at that, it was able to register some good end-of-straight numbers at Lemans, so maybe it wasn't a completely hopeless cause.

[BRG]

Never mind, think of all the good publicity the Nissan PR guys milked out of this lemon.  Mission accomplished, boys!

[Greg Locock]

Sorry Fatboy, I had struck out the s in quarterbacks, hence s, i wasn't including you

[Fat Boy]

Sorry Fatboy, I had struck out the s in quarterbacks, hence s, i wasn't including you

 

I promise I didn't take offense.

[Canuck]

Sorry Fatboy, I had struck out the s in quarterbacks, hence s, i wasn't including you

What the hell?  Who are you and what have you done with our ascerbic and sharp-tongued Greg?

[Greg Locock]

Oh him. We stuffed him in a Snap On toolbox and left him to rust at the side of the road. Eventually some roving scrap metal merchant will get a nasty shock.

 

Seriously, I was being too clever for my own good with the struck out s, and without that hard to see typographical clue it certainly read as though I was calling FB and  Ross Monday morning quarterbacks, which was not my intent in the least.  Sorry guys.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Mate, I got half-assed opinions 7 days a week. 

[Fat Boy]

Mate, I got half-assed opinions 7 days a week. 

 

Mine are usually 1/4-assed...but I've got plenty of them.

[Lee Nicolle]

Never mind, think of all the good publicity the Nissan PR guys milked out of this lemon.  Mission accomplished, boys!

To me it was a PR disaster. Big announcements and it never worked.

It sure does not want to sell me a Nissan!

[desmo]

Hats off to Nissan for trying; thumbs down for not trying very hard.