3949 replies to this topic

[Kao18]

I'm trying to like Max but I really didn't like his comments this weekend about how fast they supposedly were (only Merc is faster in racepace, we're aiming to qualify 6th, etc.) to then fail in qualifying (we're led to believe there was a car problem) and then bin it that easily in the race.

 

Somehow I think you're not really trying.

[bushgold]

I don't know if it deserved penalty and/or how much, but it was surely low quality racing from Maldonado and Verstappen (watch from 5m25):

 

Run straight in the last corner -> lose your car on the straight overtaking -> run straight again in the last corner to get overtaken

 

If you replace those cars and circuit with those of a rental karting, those moves wouldn't seem out of place.

It's the late shift of direction at the end of a DRS zone. Not on.

[CARLO55AINZ]

Errors are starting to pile up with Max with Monaco, Silvertone Q and Silverstone R just to name a few.

[Requiem84]

It's the late shift of direction at the end of a DRS zone. Not on.

We have rules, not opinions.

The rule which they have to abidy by is simple: no change of direction in the braking zone.

Apparently he did not break this rule. Case closed, move along.

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 14:22.

[Kao18]

Max with a rookie error, Sainz was gonna finish in the points and potentially 7th in the rain, just miffed about where he parked the car but he'll learn.

 

Sainz was 9th and under pressure from Perez, you are being very optimistic.

[kvyatfan]

That's also an exageration; he was mature and in control in Austria and Montreal.

In Canada he was well behaved because all the other drivers were putting him in his place. In Austria he was back to the immaturity, just see the above video.

[Requiem84]

In Canada he was well behaved because all the other drivers were putting him in his place. In Austria he was back to the immaturity, just see the above video.

He didn't get penalty, so nothing was wrong with his antics. Maldonado confirmed this at Silverstone himself when asked.

Now, this is the CS vs MV topic, if you can only focus on one driver, youre in the wrong place.

I guess it's theat your boy Daniil is feeling that gets to you? ;--)

[CARLO55AINZ]

Sainz takes the weekend easy, ahead in Q and in the race until his Renault gave up on him, missing out on a bunch of points to extend his lead of Max in the standings.

[prty]

It's the late shift of direction at the end of a DRS zone. Not on.

 

Yep I agree with this. You have to commit to a line, defensive or not, early enough. You can't do it when the other car is just behind, that's just plain dangerous and ridiculous.

 

We have rules, not opinions.

The rule which they have to abidy by is simple: no change of direction in the braking zone.

Apparently he did not break this rule. Case closed, move along.

 

Nope, unilaterally closing the case won't do it

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Sainz was 9th and under pressure from Perez, you are being very optimistic.

Kimi's woes and changeable conditions. Perez lost it behind Sainz and dropped a further second or so behind.

[Requiem84]

Sainz takes the weekend easy, ahead in Q and in the race until his Renault gave up on him, missing out on a bunch of points to extend his lead of Max in the standings.

 

That's funny, I thought you only looked at results:

 

Requiem84, on 08 Jun 2015 - 12:02, said:

It will be really funny when CS would be in a top 3 position, and then his engine brakes down. Max keeps finishing 6-8th place, and beats Sainz in the points. 

 

Would you say MV would have done a better job then? 

 

Your'e response to that quesiton:
 

Yes

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 14:37.

[Requiem84]

Yep I agree with this. You have to commit to a line, defensive or not, early enough. You can't do it when the other car is just behind, that's just plain dangerous and ridiculous.

 

 

Nope, unilaterally closing the case won't do it

 

Where's the argument then?

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 14:38.

[kvyatfan]

He didn't get penalty, so nothing was wrong with his antics. Maldonado confirmed this at Silverstone himself when asked.

Now, this is the CS vs MV topic, if you can only focus on one driver, youre in the wrong place.

I guess it's theat your boy Daniil is feeling that gets to you? ;--)

That is called politics, it would be a mistake to criticise the rules/political decisions in F1 unless you are the top driver. Anyone who has followed the sport knows this.

 

And not getting a penalty does not prove he did nothing wrong. It just may mean he got away with it. People often get away with crimes, the lack of punishment does not mean they did nothing wrong. Criticism from Maldonado and others suggests he was definitely in the wrong.

 

In a versus thread it is fair to bring up maturity questions as it is also a professional and political sport. It is not pure racing, so an individual who disrespects other drivers and causes accidents, potentially severe ones, are rightfully criticised and lose a point or more against their teammate. Right now he's looking like a potential old Maldonado, so increased risk of injury to himself or others is an important consideration.

 

As for the Kvyat comment, I don't sink to burying other drivers to make those I cheer for look better. And given that Kvyat is the same age as Sainz and easily beating him in a slower car, there seems to be no threat. (Not meant as an attack on Sainz, I realise he's a rookie and could very well be a top driver. It's basically undecided but as it stands Kvyat shouldn't be under threat.)

Edited by kvyatfan, 05 July 2015 - 14:43.

[Requiem84]

That is called politics, it would be a mistake to criticise the rules/political decisions in F1 unless you are the top driver. Anyone who has followed the sport knows this.

 

And not getting a penalty does not prove he did nothing wrong. It just may mean he got away with it. People often get away with crimes, the lack of punishment does not mean they did nothing wrong. Criticism from Maldonado and others suggests he was definitely in the wrong.

 

In a versus thread it is fair to bring up maturity questions as it is also a professional and political sport. It is not pure racing, so an individual who disrespects other drivers and causes accidents, potentially severe ones, are rightfully criticised and lose a point or more against their teammate. Right now he's looking like a potential old Maldonado, so increased risk of injury to himself or others is an important consideration.

 

As for the Kvyat comment, I don't sink to burying other drivers to make those I cheer for look better. And given that Kvyat is the same age as Sainz and easily beating him in a slower car, there seems to be no threat. (Not meant as an attack on Sainz, I realise he's a rookie and could very well be a top driver. It's basically undecided but as it stands Kvyat shouldn't be under threat.)

 

1. Get your facts straight. Maldonado said the following at the Press Conference in Silverstone:
 

How did you leave it with Max Verstappen after the battle in the last race, in Austria? Spectacular action on track. How have you left it on a personal level?

PM: I mean it was a great battle. This kind of battle I always enjoy, y’know? This is real fight in Formula One, which is always fair. For sure a couple of times it was very close, because he was trying to put me over the track - but this is part of the race. I really like the stewards that allowed us to race and to have more opportunities to fight in the track. Yeah, it was great. For me it was OK. After that, the race started very badly, we had some problems in the start and then we recovered quite well, thanks to the strategy, thanks to the team as well, and I drove quite well.

So, if the stewards and the guy who was racing him agree that nothing was wrong, how come you know more than Maldonado and the Stewards?   

2. I agree that's is fair game to discuss the attitude, personality and maturity of drivers. I just say that your analysis of his maturity is wrong. Your point: 'His lack of maturity shows every race'. Is a false statement, based on incorrect facts and assumptions. I do not disagree that talking about maturity is wrong, I just notice that you only comment on MV. This is not a one driver topic. 

3. Kyvat doing better than Sainz in a worse car is not a given. The only thing Kyvat has to do is beating Ricciardo, that's his only yardstick. So far he's doing great since Monaco in that respect. 

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 14:49.

[CurbPainter]

HAHAHAHA !

 

Has this forum "special" days ?

[kvyatfan]

Requiem, pretty choosy with the quote there. He also said:

""He was a bit... let's say not aggressive, but he wasn't really respecting the rules.

"You must leave some space for the other car and he was not respecting that."

 

And that is putting it mildly, er, politically. A fair assessment without the PR would be, 'The stupid **** could have put us both into the wall with that trick back and forth.'

 

There is no need to discuss Sainz in terms of maturity, as he is clearly more mature, professional, and respectful. Or perhaps that is not quite true, his park today was pretty bad, but nothing on the level of Verstappen.

 

And don't get me wrong, I also liked when Max joked with Massa, I think he was in the right there and it takes guts to say things like that. And a little bit of risk and passion may help him develop into an even better driver. Maybe not quite like Senna, but there is an outspoken quality to him which will command respect in the future.

 

I think he's a great driver, like the outspoken aspects he has, but don't like his accidents/potential accidents and his refusal to even notice these mistakes. There is a point where you can be too stubborn and that can be detrimental. On pure racing and maturity so far I have to say Sainz, but there is a three year difference which is important to consider.

Edited by kvyatfan, 05 July 2015 - 15:22.

[Requiem84]

Requiem, pretty choosy with the quote there. He also said:

""He was a bit... let's say not aggressive, but he wasn't really respecting the rules.

"You must leave some space for the other car and he was not respecting that."

 

And that is putting it mildly, er, politically. A fair assessment without the PR would be, 'The stupid **** could have put us both into the wall with that trick back and forth.'

 

There is no need to discuss Sainz in terms of maturity, as he is clearly more mature, professional, and respectful. Or perhaps that is not quite true, his park today was pretty bad, but nothing on the level of Verstappen.

 

And don't get me wrong, I also liked when Max joked with Massa, I think he was in the right there and it takes guts to say things like that. And a little bit of risk and passion may help him develop into an even better driver. Maybe not quite like Senna, but there is an outspoken quality to him which will command respect in the future.

 

I think he's a great driver, like the outspoken aspects he has, but don't like his accidents/potential accidents and his refusal to even notice these mistakes. There is a point where you can be too stubborn and that can be detrimental. On pure racing and maturity so far I have to say Sainz, but there is a three year difference which is important to consider.

 

I'm afraid you're wrong again. Your quote was taken right after the Austrian GP, in the heat of the moment. The statement I quoted was said by Maldonado at the Silverstone press conference, a few weeks later when he made up his mind. Also, it's the full comment I provided you with, and not a selective bit. See for yourself:

https://www.formula1...at-britain.html

 

He clearly says that 1) he liked the fact the stewards didn't interfere. And 2) that it was okay. I guess that case is closed. 

 

Regarding Sainz, we could also call him immature if we would be looking for something to pick on... That would be unfair, just as it is unfair of you to state this:

Talented driver but his immaturity is showing almost every weekend.

 

But if you wanted to pick on Sainz, we could say his China spin was a rookie error, and he was very lucky not to crash out of Monaco and collect Nasr while at it. I'm not saying this is fair, but this would be the kind of argumenting you seem to prefer . 

 

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 15:34.

[Beamer]

Sainz takes the weekend easy, ahead in Q and in the race until his Renault gave up on him, missing out on a bunch of points to extend his lead of Max in the standings.

To extend a lead, you have to be in front to begin with.... last time I checked, max is leading in point...

[Kao18]

That is called politics, it would be a mistake to criticise the rules/political decisions in F1 unless you are the top driver. Anyone who has followed the sport knows this.

 

And not getting a penalty does not prove he did nothing wrong. It just may mean he got away with it. People often get away with crimes, the lack of punishment does not mean they did nothing wrong. Criticism from Maldonado and others suggests he was definitely in the wrong.

 

In a versus thread it is fair to bring up maturity questions as it is also a professional and political sport. It is not pure racing, so an individual who disrespects other drivers and causes accidents, potentially severe ones, are rightfully criticised and lose a point or more against their teammate. Right now he's looking like a potential old Maldonado, so increased risk of injury to himself or others is an important consideration.

 

As for the Kvyat comment, I don't sink to burying other drivers to make those I cheer for look better. And given that Kvyat is the same age as Sainz and easily beating him in a slower car, there seems to be no threat. (Not meant as an attack on Sainz, I realise he's a rookie and could very well be a top driver. It's basically undecided but as it stands Kvyat shouldn't be under threat.)

 

I think you are overreacting a bit...

[kvyatfan]

Requiem, again, that is political speak. His other comments are much more honest and in line with anyone who considers that dangerous defensive move objectively. It was irresponsible and dangerous. No argument.

 

As for Sainz spinning out. There's an important difference between making an error and deliberately making dangerous moves. That should be clear.

 

Kao18, how is it overreacting? He has caused accidents, potentially caused a major one if not for Maldonado's save, and disrespected other drivers by saying things which could harm their reputation.

Edited by kvyatfan, 05 July 2015 - 16:19.

[Seanspeed]

Sainz takes the weekend easy, ahead in Q and in the race until his Renault gave up on him, missing out on a bunch of points to extend his lead of Max in the standings.

Sainz was unlikely to finish better than 9th. Points, definitely, but maybe not a 'bunch' of them.

[Requiem84]

Hahaha, so you decide which of his comments are more honest, and which of the comments are political speak? Where can I buy the hearing devices to decide which comment falls in which category? 

 

'It was irresponsible and dangerous' is your analysis. And clearly not Maldonado's analysis, nor the analysis of the stewards. It's time you admit you are wrong on this account, that you are wrong on 'his maturity showing every race'. I have shown you facts, you respond by ignoring facts. End of discussion for me. 

 

I will leave it for now here, because you do not respond to facts, but seem to cherry pick facts that suit your argument. That is not how one can argue at any discussion platform. 

 

And oh, regarding your last coment: 'Max has caused accidents'. I just recall one accident with Grosjean. According to you, we shouldn't always follow the Stewards decisions, or non-decision. So in your argument the purpretator of this crash is not per se Verstappen. 

 

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 16:29.

[Celloman]

I wouldn't take the stewards opinions as the only truth, they have been instructed to avoid giving unnecesary penalties, but when the consequences are more serious they tend to overract (Grosjean getting race ban just because he took out a championship contender at Spa 2012). If there had been a serious injury or mass collision following Max' Austria main straight wiggle, which well could have happened, I have no doubt they would have penalized him. Imo the move he did there was worse than the Monaco braking mistake, but again due to consequences being the deciding factor, only the Monaco move was penalized.

Edited by Celloman, 05 July 2015 - 17:58.

[DILLIGAF]

Max says himself there was enough heat in his tyres and he was just at full throttle when the back all of sudden broke out again, it looked like the same problem as yesterday according to him.

He would say that wouldn't he. He should just admit that he punched it when the tyres weren't up to it yet. Admit his mistake and move on.

[zanquis]

What he did to MAL in Austria deserved a 3 race ban.

LOL based on that logic Maldonado and half the field should receive a ban for life and max chilton would have been champion...

[Nemo1965]

Well, now the handbags have flown around...

 

My pessimism before the weekend (and before the excellent FP-results) was justified. It will be very hard for Toro Rosso to get more points. Sainz and Verstappen, in my mind, are clearly better racers than Grosjean, Maldonado, Ericcson, Nasr, Perez... but all those drivers have Mercedes-power and Carlos and Max have the meagre Renault in their back... Sainz perhaps could have 9th or 10th... but that was about it. It is my impression that Verstappen during FP played with very low downforce-settings and perhaps for the race. It is also my impression that during qualifying, with the DRS available at all points at the track, qualifying head of the Force India's and Lotuses will be very difficult at almost all the tracks.

 

A mistake by the team and a mistake by Max in Monaco ruined their best chance of very big points, I am afraid...

[Arundo]

Sainz takes the weekend easy, ahead in Q and in the race until his Renault gave up on him, missing out on a bunch of points to extend his lead of Max in the standings.

 

So now we are counting missing points because of an engine failure ? I think Max earns a few of those points then right ?

 

Sainz might be ahead this weekend but only because the issue on Max car during Qualify, if not for that he would have been beaten as he has been in every other session this weekend. 

 

O PS Max is ahead in points so by the logic of this topic he's the better one....

 

Anyway, about Max and Carlos both had great FP's too bad they could not collect the points they should earn. Max made a mistake, **** happens he will make more in his career just as others have done so. Carlos made mistakes this year aswell both are still learning. Shame his car broke down, the Toro Rosso is still not reliable enough. Carlos having the issue in race and Max in qualify says enough about the reliability. Too bad for the team that they did not get any points out of the Silverstone GP.

Edited by Arundo, 05 July 2015 - 19:12.

[Arundo]

I wouldn't take the stewards opinions as the only truth, they have been instructed to avoid giving unnecesary penalties, but when the consequences are more serious they tend to overract (Grosjean getting race ban just because he took out a championship contender at Spa 2012). If there had been a serious injury or mass collision following Max' Austria main straight wiggle, which well could have happened, I have no doubt they would have penalized him. Imo the move he did there was worse than the Monaco braking mistake, but again due to consequences being the deciding factor, only the Monaco move was penalized.

 

What wiggle ? He made one defensive move to the inside, which is allowed. \

Watch the movie below, at the end you see the "wiggle".

 

[CurbPainter]

He would say that wouldn't he. He should just admit that he punched it when the tyres weren't up to it yet. Admit his mistake and move on.

 

Apparently he also did that...

 

http://www.gpupdate....f1-news/327790/

 

...a bit confusing when two opposite things are being said.

[Myrvold]

So, a gust of wind, straight after a restart with the field bunched up, and no other drivers even had a little wiggle?

[Nemo1965]

So, a gust of wind, straight after a restart with the field bunched up, and no other drivers even had a little wiggle?

 

The team took a risk with Max starting on the hard tyres... it was clearly a mistake by Verstappen but you can't ask a chicken to fly... both Raikkonen and Sainz tried it once at other Grand Prix and both spun out of that particular Grand Prix. A gamble and it did not pay off.

 

Next Grand Prix in Hungary. Please no gremlins for both boys there! And no sandbagging of the Mercedes-teams in free practice (of which I suspect them these last rounds).

[CurbPainter]

So, a gust of wind, straight after a restart with the field bunched up, and no other drivers even had a little wiggle?

 

Cold tyres he said here, but on his official site and on the BBC he said there was enough heat in them.

 

He was the only one on the primes. It looked basically the same as with Carlos in China, the wrong strategy for the GP.  With the STR10 seemingly getting very difficult temperatures in the tyres, the drivers over did it by trying to keep up.

Edited by CurbPainter, 05 July 2015 - 19:31.

[Nemo1965]

Cold tyres he said here, but on his official site and on the BBC he said there was enough heat in them.

 

He was the only one on the primes. It looked basically the same as with Carlos in China, the wrong strategy for the GP and trying to keep up with the others on options. But with the STR10 seemingly getting very difficult temperatures in the tyres, the drivers over did it by trying to keep up.

 

That does not have to be a contradiction. I heard Verstappen say on the Beeb that his rear-tyres warmed up very well, he did not add: 'But the front tyres did not,' but his tone and sentence implied that. 'The rear tyres DID warm up.' Which says me: the rear tyres warmed up, the front tyres did not. Whoosh. Spin.

[CurbPainter]

That does not have to be a contradiction. I heard Verstappen say on the Beeb that his rear-tyres warmed up very well, he did not add: 'But the front tyres did not,' but his tone and sentence implied that. 'The rear tyres DID warm up.' Which says me: the rear tyres warmed up, the front tyres did not. Whoosh. Spin.

 

He did on Verstappen.nl...

 

http://www.verstappe...id=2192&lang=en

 

But how poor was the start of both TR drivers, they can Qualify all they want, but with such poor starts it doesn't matter...they might want to look into that also, very strange, because I can't recall them being that bad in it in the other races.

[SenorSjon]

Verstappen had to slow to a standstill to avoid the crashing LotusMcLaren pair.

[Nemo1965]

Verstappen had to slow to a standstill to avoid the crashing LotusMcLaren pair.

 

Yaha... but he was behind both Maldonado and Grosjean and the two McLarens... so three out of four must have passed him. Even more: I think the two Manors were ahead of him...

[SenorSjon]

if you are the only one starting on the less grippy tire, you shouldn't be surprised you get passed.

[A3]

Meh, crappy result for both.

 

A weekend to quickly forget...

[A3]

if you are the only one starting on the less grippy tire, you shouldn't be surprised you get passed.

Sainz fell back as well.

[CurbPainter]

Meh, crappy result for both.

 

A weekend to quickly forget...

 

It looks like all the Red Bull drivers had an off day, just like almost the entire rest of the grid.

 

Verstappen, Kvyat and Ricciardo all spun, and Carlos was off the pace looking at his lap times compared to Kvyat, Hulkenberg, Perez and Ericsson.

[prty]

Where's the argument then?

 

In the post you quote?

[Requiem84]

In the post you quote?

 

All I see is a personal opinion, which is not even shared by the guy who had to deal with it himself. 

 

As such, I suggest we bilaterally close it  .

Edited by Requiem84, 05 July 2015 - 21:00.

[JosD]

Shame, the weekend looked promising for TR, but these things happen. MV had some good free practices, but the qualification and race definitely were for CS. Still would have loved to see what would have happened if MV did not have those wastegate issues during quali, he would have done a better job without a doubt. The spin in the race however was disappointing, but those things happen.

[lars75]

Errors are starting to pile up with Max with Monaco, Silvertone Q and Silverstone R just to name a few.

 

Silverstone Q error from Max? I think Sainz made a error to during this race then!

[DarthWillie]

all this fuss for a driver who just had a spin,  something that has happened to bassicly every driver on the grid at some point? wow.  Perhaps the fanatical praising of Max by some of his disciples has something to do with the overreactions? 

 

as far as I can see it, silly spin that says notihing about his driving abilities. It happens.

[Jimisgod]

Meh, crappy result for both.

 

A weekend to quickly forget...

 

Only because Sainz completely outclassed Max

[Cyanide]

Sainz was the better driver today and yesterday. 

 

End of. 

[Ikebana]

Indeed Sainz gets this weekend. If not for the electrical thing he likely would have taken Max position in the standings, but well, the season still is long. Let's see who finishes better, both will likely give expectacle if their cars allow them to.

 

And just as I thought, Max was a bit overly-optimistic with his words after practice.

 

- Verstappen once again beaten in Q

- Max serioulsly needs to work on qualifying....

- Embarassing result. This time Sainz destroyed Max by 0.9 seconds. 

- Sainz is the best rookie

 

Jumping to conclusions: Level 99

 

 

In the end Max his car had a problem, (they probably forgot to tighten the screws on the new floor ) but that doesn't matter because Max sucks at qualifying anyway, right?

 

 

 

Nobody said Max sucks at qualifying just that he needs to improve at it if he's as good as some here are painting him. Also, if you hype a driver up to the stars as some do here you have to expect some criticism that will go accordingly to the hype. Some people here even said so happy and sure that Max would beat Sainz 20/0.

 

On the other hand, be happy that when Sainz beats Max people here talk about "beating" or "destroying" and not as when Max beats Sainz which the word is "trashing"...

 

And remind me again about jumping conclusions next time certain forumers implies Ferrari is fighting Mercedes to get Verstappen or that Senna here and there. It's been like a fact in this thread that Max is a bigger talent and everyone that disagreed with that got agressive replies back...

Edited by Ikebana, 06 July 2015 - 00:51.

[CurbPainter]

We just have to face the fact Carlos was awesome with being faster as a McLaren and 2 Marussia's...and we all know the FIA awards magical bonus points when you beat them, so if it wasn't for Carlos having problems, he would have been ahead now in the standing of Max...

 

...and don't forget, beating your teammate in Qualifying when he has a mechanical problem requires an out of the ordinary skill...sigh, some people just don't understand how much talent someone must have to be able to pull off stuff like that.

[Jimisgod]

We just have to face the fact Carlos was awesome with being faster as a McLaren and 2 Marussia's...and we all know the FIA awards magical bonus points when you beat them, so if it wasn't for Carlos having problems, he would have been ahead now in the standing of Max...

 

...and don't forget, beating your teammate in Qualifying when he has a mechanical problem requires an out of the ordinary skill...sigh, some people just don't understand how much talent someone must have to be able to pull off stuff like that.

 

More talent than it takes to spin into the wall on cold tyres?