393 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

I thought there would already be a thread discussion this, but it doesn't look like there is...

 

Felipe Massa calls Max Verstappen's Monaco GP driving 'dangerous':

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119163

 

Meanwhile Verstappen says he wasn't even attempting to overtake there, and that Grosjean braked early, sparking the incident:

http://www.f1technic...8OzG67Q.twitter

 

Grosjean says he braked as late as his worn tires would let him, even braking 5M later than on the previous lap:

http://www.motorspor...naco-gp-report/

 

Hmmm...

Edited by AustinF1, 25 May 2015 - 15:06.

[Jackmancer]

Funny, Massa wrecked a whole carpark of Sauber's in his debut year. 

 

And this:

[QdfV]

Well, Massa is the expert, he knows his business.

Edited by QdfV, 25 May 2015 - 15:20.

[superden]

Too late, too fast. It was an error of judgement, fanboys can bleat on all day, but it won't change anything. It's not unreasonable, or even criticism. Drivers make errors, all of them ... even golden boy Max Verstappen.

Give it a week, people will have forgotten.

[Arundo]

Well Massa... lets not get started on what Massa has to say, if it was up to him F1 would be like Indycar on ovals and have a safety car for every little debri and when it rains the race would get suspended. I keep hoping that Massa retires but somehow he gets in a seat every year. 

 

PS Massa is not the one who should talk about being dangerous:

 

Crash with Perez in Canada: 

 

His Monaco adventures:

2002 http://www.dailymoti...naco-2002_sport

2002 

2002 

2011 

2011 

2012

2013 

2013

Edited by Arundo, 25 May 2015 - 15:25.

[ardbeg]

Since Verstappen got a penalty, I assume the stewards have verified Grosjeans story. Would be nice if that was confirmed though. They definitely had different ideas on where the braking point was.

[superden]

Massa has had his fair share of incidents over the years yes. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to express an opinion, or that his opinion isn't right on the nose.

Edited by superden, 25 May 2015 - 15:26.

[GoldenColt]

I don't know what it is with Felipe bashing others despite himself being one to hardly miss an opportunity to crash in his first couple of seasons in F1. And some of those guys are considerably younger than he was at the beginning of his career. 

[DaddyCool]

I've noticed that the older generation of the grid never misses a chance to take shots at Max's age. I guess it is hard to swallow that a 17 year old guy is making a better impression so far than some has-beens like Massa.

[Proto402]

I thought it was simply a racing incident.  Verstappen simply misjudged where Grosjean started to brake, and he hit him.  A rookie error in my opinion.

[superden]

Max will be the one criticising other, younger drivers one day. I can guarantee you that.

Edited by superden, 25 May 2015 - 15:31.

[rasul]

What do Massa's past accidents have to do with the relevance of his opinion? I'd say as a racing driver with a lot of experience  he's more qualified to express his opinion than armchair experts like us. 

 

Ves was reckless. If everyone tells him it's okay, he'll keep driving like that, so kudos to Massa. 

[Arundo]

What do Massa's past accidents have to do with the relevance of his opinion? I'd say as a racing driver with a lot of experience  he's more qualified to express his opinion than armchair experts like us. 

 

Ves was reckless. If everyone tells him it's okay, he'll keep driving like that, so kudos to Massa. 

 

What bugs me about Massa is that he was the first to tell the world that Ves was too young but sofar apart from last weekend Ves did not make any mistakes in the first five races. Now he did and Massa is the first to point his little finger. 

 

Ves being reckless ? I do hope you want to watch racing instead of another parade, if Ves did not overtake there would not be hardly any overtakes in this race (Not sure if there were any other overtakes this race, cant recall correct me if im wrong). So I hope he keeps doing what he did (apart from crashing) and not become another Massa who forgot what racing is all about. Crashes are part of that. 

Edited by Arundo, 25 May 2015 - 15:42.

[rasul]

What bugs me about Massa is that he was the first to tell the world that Ves was too young but sofar apart from last weekend Ves did not make any mistakes in the first five races. Now he did and Massa is the first to point his little finger. 

 

Ves being reckless ? I do hope you want to watch racing instead of another parade, if Ves did not overtake there would not be hardly any overtakes in this race (Not sure if there were any other overtakes this race, cant recall correct me if im wrong). So I hope he keeps doing what he did (apart from crashing) and not become another Massa who forgot what racing is all about. Crashes are part of that. 

So ruining another driver's race is okay in your book? Grosjean's smart defending during the blue flags was far more impressive to me and he didn't deserve his race to be ruined because of a rookie's recklessness. It's good that someone criticized Ves--he'll be smarter next time. For me good racing=/=causing crashes.

Edited by rasul, 25 May 2015 - 15:50.

[Nemo1965]

What do Massa's past accidents have to do with the relevance of his opinion? I'd say as a racing driver with a lot of experience  he's more qualified to express his opinion than armchair experts like us. 

 

Ves was reckless. If everyone tells him it's okay, he'll keep driving like that, so kudos to Massa. 

 

Listen, if Verstappen would have crashed into Nasr at the hairpin in China, then Massa could have criticised him... THAT was very bold move, which turns into a reckless move when it results in carbon flying.

 

But in Monaco DID NOT try to overtake Grosjean at that point. He was not braking when Grosjean had applied the brakes, early or not. Verstappen got caught with a car in the middle of the track, he should have been more circumspect, it was a mistake. Why do you think his speed was so high when he flew into the barriers? Right. Because he not really tried to outbrake Grosjean, he was still going full tilt when the crash happened.

 

Racing incident. Could have been avoided by Alonso or Button, but even those drivers get it wrong sometimes in circumstances like that (see Button in China).

[Arundo]

So ruining another driver's race is okay in your book?

 

Yeah I bet Max thought lets ruin Grosjean's race and crash into him.... 

[maximilian]

Does anybody remember the last time Massa said anything positive about... anything?

[sniper80]

Massa... always whining about others :-D He's the new Barrichello :-D

[SlickMick]

Bullsit denials from drivers to cover their obvious mistakes is common. Vestappen's statement here goes beyond the norm and has led to suggestions Grosjean was break testing him.

I'm not surprised other drivers will chip in after hearing blatant lies. 

Fortunately he has Jos and Helmut as role models. 

[AustinF1]

I don't think it should be dismissed as a BS denial or a 'blatant lie' just because Verstappen hints that Grosjean brake-checked him. Maybe that's how it appeared to him from his seat.

[Jbleroi]

Massa with his tons of exeprience a had a couple of stupid crashes over the last couple of years. MV hardly put a foot wrong since the start of his formula 1 campaign and outsined most of his competitors during some of the first races this season so i find it very cheap of massa to cry in the media that MV is too young to drive a forumla 1 car and that his age was the reason for the crash. It was just a drivers mistake, even former wdc's made similar mistakes in the recent past and massa had a similar one in canada last year. crashes happen and are part of racing
I furthermore got the impression that massa was waiting for MV to crash (wich was always going to happen at one point) inorder to rant in the media about mv his age because from the beginning of the season he was complaining about MV his age and until yesterday MV gave him no amunition to so.

Massa is a cry baby and if he thinks that F1 has become to dangerous he should quit and make place for somebody more talented.

[MikeV1987]

I got the impression MV was going to make the move because RG left that door wide open, but I don't think he was anticipating RG to slow down that early (or that quickly) and ended making the move too late, classic mistake imo. The criticism from Grosjean & Massa is justified, but at the same time it's a bit rich coming from them in particular IMO.

Edited by MikeV1987, 25 May 2015 - 16:15.

[SlickMick]

I don't think it should be dismissed as a BS denial or a 'blatant lie' just because Verstappen hints that Grosjean brake-checked him. Maybe that's how it appeared to him from his seat.

You were the one who posted the link containing Vestappen's direct comments. 10 or 15 meters earlier. That is a blatant lie.
Stewards concur this wasnt the case. Video (see the "I love Max thread" aka Vestappen v Sainz 2015) suggests Grosjean actually breaked later than the previous lap.
It's either bullshit, a blatant lie suggesting Grosjean deliberatley caused a dangerous incident, or both.
Screwed up and he should be man enough to admit it and move on. He deserves any heat he gets from other drivers for this incident.

[RekF1]

Massa has had his fair share of incidents over the years yes. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to express an opinion, or that his opinion isn't right on the nose.

You just saved me the effort. Max shouldn't have used the radio to tell his team and the rest of the world that he was going to use Vettel to pass Grosjean. Lotus and Grosjean would obviously be aware. That being said, it was a clever idea. He was close to an early shower trying to get by Maldonado and then the final incident. It definitely warrants criticism from his peers. You can guarantee he's gonna have to watch his back with Grosjean, Bottas and Maldonado going forwards, too.

[QdfV]

You were the one who posted the link containing Vestappen's direct comments. 10 or 15 meters earlier. That is a blatant lie.
Stewards concur this wasnt the case. Video (see the "I love Max thread" aka Vestappen v Sainz 2015) suggests Grosjean actually breaked later than the previous lap.
It's either bullshit, a blatant lie suggesting Grosjean deliberatley caused a dangerous incident, or both.
Screwed up and he should be man enough to admit it and move on. He deserves any heat he gets from other drivers for this incident.

You can only speculate it was a blatant lie. The stewards decision only means MV was the one who should have avoided, probably even if Grosjean braked/lifted early/ earlier than the lap before.

[Arundo]

Massa has had his fair share of incidents over the years yes. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to express an opinion, or that his opinion isn't right on the nose.

 

There is every right to do so, if it would be any of the other drivers I could probably live with it as Max did make the mistake and he should learn from this. But this coming from Massa who was against Max being so young and entering F1 at 17 from the start makes this not an opinion but a "i told you so" thing from Massa. 

 

And I'm not suprised, I expected this from Massa and we probably will see a Villeneuve comment in the coming days aswell. 

 

Max needs to learn things, and I hope he does or actually I bet he does as he did in F3. But once again I still hope he keeps up his racing as its very refreshing to see him driving in F1.

Edited by Arundo, 25 May 2015 - 16:30.

[AustinF1]

You were the one who posted the link containing Vestappen's direct comments. 10 or 15 meters earlier. That is a blatant lie.
Stewards concur this wasnt the case. Video (see the "I love Max thread" aka Vestappen v Sainz 2015) suggests Grosjean actually breaked later than the previous lap.
It's either bullshit, a blatant lie suggesting Grosjean deliberatley caused a dangerous incident, or both.
Screwed up and he should be man enough to admit it and move on. He deserves any heat he gets from other drivers for this incident.

Yes I posted the article. So? I was posting viewpoints from all sides. I'm not sure how that strengthens your argument that what Verstappen said was a "blatant lie".

 

Even so,  if that's not what happened (I'm not certain either way), could he not just be wrong? Why must it be so that he's a blatant liar or worse, that he (I can't imagine why) deliberately caused a crash ? That's a very strong, unsubstantiated accusation.

Edited by AustinF1, 25 May 2015 - 16:40.

[Fatgadget]

Massa is right.Hes been there and has the T shirt to prove. My heart sank when I saw Max's impact into the barrier....Sure Max is young and feerless.But; next time Im so sure he will be so lucky to just walk away from such a heavy impact...Just saying...

[Sterzo]

Grosjean was struggling on dodgy tyres, so probably was varying his braking point, Verstappen was a bit optimistic and misjudged it, Massa was pestered for a view by a journalist and gave a not very coherent one. No big deal.

[SlickMick]

You can only speculate it was a blatant lie. The stewards decision only means MV was the one who should have avoided, probably even if Grosjean braked/lifted early/ earlier than the lap before.

Stop clutching at straws with this braked early lark - go and look at the vids.
When was the interview given. Any idea?
You are right, I am speculating it was a "blatant lie". If it transpires he made the statements after visiting the stewards I would speculate that we can remove any speculation.

[scheivlak]

You can only speculate it was a blatant lie. The stewards decision only means MV was the one who should have avoided, probably even if Grosjean braked/lifted early/ earlier than the lap before.

No, it means that MV was the one who should have avoided in their opinion.

 

Stewards are not infallible, Not everybody was happy when e.g. Allan McNish (steward at Monaco this weekend)  gave Grosjean a drive-through penalty for his pass on Massa in Hungary 2013.

Edited by scheivlak, 25 May 2015 - 16:41.

[SlickMick]

Yes I posted the article. So? I was posting viewpoints from all sides. I'm not sure how that strengthens your argument that what Verstappen said was a "blatant lie".
 
Even so,  if that's not what happened (I'm not certain either way), could he not just be wrong? Why must it be so that he's a blatant liar? That's a very strong, unsubstantiated accusation.

Based on his quote, you linked to, he is wrong and it's a lie.

A strong unsubstantiated accusation? Not as strong as brake tested by a fellow professional driver.

Call a spade a spade.

[QdfV]

That is strange; On BBC Allan McNish confirmed Max story about Grosjean reducing speed earlier than before.

[ardbeg]

That is strange; On BBC Allan McNish confirmed Max story about Grosjean reducing speed earlier than before.

Thta is indeed strange. If so, the penalty for Max was unfair and I hope his team appeals. Specially if the quote from Grosjean saying he braked "5 meters later" is correct. Then he lied and the stewards did not check telemetry.

[AustinF1]

Based on his quote, you linked to, he is wrong and it's a lie.

A strong unsubstantiated accusation? Not as strong as brake tested by a fellow professional driver.

Call a spade a spade.

Wrong =/= liar.

 

Can you support in any specific way your assertion that Max is 'blatantly lying' here? If you can, then I'm sure we'd all love to hear it.

 

Hint: just saying he's wrong is not in any way a convincing argument that he's lying, or worse, that he willfully crashed his car into Grosjean's.

 

Also, I would add that as far as I know, Max has not made any 'brake-testing' claim. 

[anneomoly]

That is strange; On BBC Allan McNish confirmed Max story about Grosjean reducing speed earlier than before.

 

Allan McNish gave a judgement based off the data he had (ie what he could see on replays). He was, in this case, wrong.

[McHonda96]

I've noticed that the older generation of the grid never misses a chance to take shots at Max's age. I guess it is hard to swallow that a 17 year old guy is making a better impression so far than some has-beens like Massa.

so far i didnt hear Kimi,Alonso or Button mention anything about him at all lol.

 

Edit: he hasn't particularly impressed me either, imo Alonso and Kubica were 2 guys who impressed me the most at their first seasons, i dont think max can add to my list.

Edited by McHonda96, 25 May 2015 - 17:01.

[SealTheDiffuser]

MAS Canada 2014 was dangerous.

[pRy]

Massa has had his fair share of incidents over the years yes. It doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to express an opinion, or that his opinion isn't right on the nose.

 

True but you would think a driver who had his fair share of incidents in his early days would perhaps understand what the driver of today is experiencing and may opt for a private word with them rather than speak to the press and suggest they're a danger to everyone else. The young drivers need the older more experienced drivers to assist them and offer them advice.. not go running to the press to condemn them after their first crash involving another car.

Edited by pRy, 25 May 2015 - 17:12.

[QdfV]

Allan McNish gave a judgement based off the data he had (ie what he could see on replays). He was, in this case, wrong.

But if he was one of the stewards he surely saw more data. Furthermore; what data did you see where to substantiate your (silly) blatant lie claim?

[Arundo]

True but you would think a driver who had his fair share of incidents in his early days would perhaps understand what the driver of today is experiencing and may opt for a private word with them rather than speak to the press and suggest they're a danger to everyone else. The young drivers need the older more experienced drivers to assist them and offer them advice.. not go running to the press to condemn them after their first crash involving another car.

 

Spot on 

[AlexisBT]

It just confirms what I've been thinking for a while, Massa is a pure idiot. He's one of the most dangerous guy on the track and he's had more than his fair share of incidents yet he yaps his mouth like that. What a major a-hole.

 

BTW, not saying that Verstappen wasn't going too fast. Just saying that Massa is an idiot.

[ardbeg]

I can's find any stewards reports at the FiA homepage, they have remodelled... Anyone know where they can be found?

[ANF]

I can's find any stewards reports at the FiA homepage, they have remodelled... Anyone know where they can be found?

http://www.fia.com/e...g-information-4

[QdfV]

On the FIA site, it wasnt McNish, but Kristensen, Abed and 2 others

[skicrack]

Could someone post a link to the Mcnish article? O couldn't find it. Thanks in advance

[OilFour]

Yes... i like to see a Verstappen back in F1, whether it's Min / Max / Average or cumulative.

 

But, imho, and i'm not to deffend Max, in my book GJ is as guilty as Max, GJ had problems with his brakes and had to brake much earlier as any other non Lotus car on track.

 

Max had a good run on GJ on start finish and surely Max was able to out brake GJ, GJ closes the door / goes off throttle and hit the brakes while Max was already faster ... Where in the world could Max go?

[Dr. Austin]

Grosjean simply put it in "park." I'm surprised he didn't get out and walk into the pub.

[ANF]

Blaming Grosjean for this accident is like blaming Alonso for almost being hit in the head by Grosjean's Lotus at Spa 2012.

[SenorSjon]

I thought it was simply a racing incident. Verstappen simply misjudged where Grosjean started to brake, and he hit him. A rookie error in my opinion.

Not really. Schumacher vs Senna in Spain, Schumacher vs Kobayashi in Britain and Schumacher in Singapore were near identical crashes. Same for Button a few races ago and if I dig deeper I could find more. It seems like a 'feature' of the current tire + lift&coast era.