393 replies to this topic

[Jon83]

brr, on 05 Jun 2015 - 10:10, said:

In that case "very unlucky" is french for "it was my fault".

 

Sky Sports did an interview with him last season. He said that '90%' of the DNFs in 2012 were down to him.

 

Obviously there were first lap incidents which didn't lead to a DNF for him but I think what he said was refreshingly honest. He has clearly learned a lot from that season.

[SenorSjon]

Did he apologize to each and every driver he hit?

 

The Canada 2014 crash is more equal then he thinks

Massa from behind >> one in front to blame.

Max from behind >> one in back to blame. 

 

Where is the consistency in that? For the record, I thought it was a racing accident last year and if someone was to blame, it was Massa for following the track blindly (i.e. turning right) while Perez was driving in a straight line towards the inside of the corner. Noting that the prelude to turn 1 first goes a bit to the right and then you have the corner to the left. A bit like a mirrored Monaco straight (first to the left and then St. Devote to the right).

[SammyWilson]

Massa is just a moaning tw*t! Never could stand him!

 

Max will be three times the driver Massa will ever be!

[Jon83]

SenorSjon, on 05 Jun 2015 - 11:22, said:

Did he apologize to each and every driver he hit?

 

The Canada 2014 crash is more equal then he thinks

Massa from behind >> one in front to blame.

Max from behind >> one in back to blame. 

 

Where is the consistency in that? For the record, I thought it was a racing accident last year and if someone was to blame, it was Massa for following the track blindly (i.e. turning right) while Perez was driving in a straight line towards the inside of the corner. Noting that the prelude to turn 1 first goes a bit to the right and then you have the corner to the left. A bit like a mirrored Monaco straight (first to the left and then St. Devote to the right).

 

 

I don't know what was said in private. I know he apologised to Webber over what happened in Japan but I don't know about the others.

 

He has clearly learned a lot since then.

[Marklar]

Basically for me the one who is in the back is to blame unless the telemetrys show that the guy on the front braked to early or changed the line in the braking point. In Verstappens case the telemetry proved that Grosjean didn't braked earlier but later. In Massas case Perez had brake issues and changed the line at the braking point but with Massa beeing not alongside.

 

In conclusion

- Perez/Massa was an racing incident because both driver made a complete dog's dinner of it

- Verstappen/Grosjean was clearly an Verstappen mistake based on the telemetrys

 

At the end both drivers were right. Massa with saying that his incident was different and Verstappen with reminding Massa about his own mistake.

[SenorSjon]

Rosberg had brake issues. not Perez?

[Marklar]

SenorSjon, on 05 Jun 2015 - 13:06, said:

Rosberg had brake issues. not Perez?

Perez had also brake issues

 

Quote

 

Perez complained of brake issues and electrical problems in the closing stages of the race.

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/114376

Edited by Marklar, 05 June 2015 - 13:10.

[Quickshifter]

Why Verstappen should keep a low profile this season is because any incident he has on the track will be dotted with his age. There is a time for everything in life. Sometimes one needs to look at the bigger picture before trying to gain brawny points. Look how long it took for Grosjean to get rid off his crash prone image. Look at how Sainz is calmly handling his debut season. I thought Max had a great advisory group around him but i am not so sure now. It is very easy to be tagged a crash kid in formula 1. So i hope better sense prevails and he lets his driving do the talking

[DampMongoose]

"That Felipe Massa, he could teach some of the youngsters a thing or two about driving standards" said nobody ever.

[skicrack]

Marklar, on 05 Jun 2015 - 13:02, said:

Basically for me the one who is in the back is to blame unless the telemetrys show that the guy on the front braked to early or changed the line in the braking point. In Verstappens case the telemetry proved that Grosjean didn't braked earlier but later. In Massas case Perez had brake issues and changed the line at the braking point but with Massa beeing not alongside.

 

In conclusion

- Perez/Massa was an racing incident because both driver made a complete dog's dinner of it

- Verstappen/Grosjean was clearly an Verstappen mistake based on the telemetrys

 

At the end both drivers were right. Massa with saying that his incident was different and Verstappen with reminding Massa about his own mistake.

 

There have been reports, where was said they didn't even look at the telemetry. It seems as if they also wanted to send a message to Verstappen like, get in line!

Also in my opinion, last year Perez wasnt the one at fault. FIA should look at the driving rules!

[lars75]

Marklar, on 05 Jun 2015 - 13:02, said:

Basically for me the one who is in the back is to blame unless the telemetrys show that the guy on the front braked to early or changed the line in the braking point. In Verstappens case the telemetry proved that Grosjean didn't braked earlier but later. In Massas case Perez had brake issues and changed the line at the braking point but with Massa beeing not alongside.

 

In conclusion

- Perez/Massa was an racing incident because both driver made a complete dog's dinner of it

- Verstappen/Grosjean was clearly an Verstappen mistake based on the telemetrys

 

At the end both drivers were right. Massa with saying that his incident was different and Verstappen with reminding Massa about his own mistake.

 

Perez did not change his line, Perez was not weaving, Perez was not steering in what kind of way, Perez was braking within the braking zone. Perez took a straight line towards turn 1 to defent his position, defencive move. 

 

Massa on the other hand made the bad choice and didn't see Perez his action, made a misjudgement and steered to right in to Perez. 

 

This accident is quit simular to Monaco in a few ways.

 

And telemetry also showed that Max was braking at exact the same point as the previous lap.

 

So one of them is telling some rubish to cover up things!

 

I used this on a Dutch forum aswell:

If Paul is behind Will and telemetry is saying Will is braking later and staying on the throttle longer as is Paul braking at exact the same point as before, the gap must grow larger. But in this case the gap shrunk quickly, to quick to anticipate. So to me that means that Paul must have been braking later or Will was braking earlier/lifted the throttle.

Edited by lars75, 05 June 2015 - 14:46.

[Briz]

It's a good decision to not take any sh.. especially from someone like Massa. Show some spine, good for image purposes both off and on the track.

[Tapz63]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 14:34, said:

Perez did not change his line, Perez was not weaving, Perez was not steering in what kind of way, Perez was braking within the braking zone. Perez took a straight line towards turn 1 to defent his position, defencive move.

Massa on the other hand made the bad choice and didn't see Perez his action, made a misjudgement and steered to right in to Perez.

This accident is quit simular to Monaco in a few ways.

And telemetry also showed that Max was braking at exact the same point as the previous lap.

So one of them is telling some rubish to cover up things!

I used this on a Dutch forum aswell:
If Paul is behind Will and telemetry is saying Will is braking later and staying on the throttle longer as is Paul braking at exact the same point as before, the gap must grow larger. But in this case the gap shrunk quickly, to quick to anticipate. So to me that means that Paul must have been braking later or Will was braking earlier/lifted the throttle.

Or Paul was going quicker than he had on the previous lap.

[Kao18]

Tapz63, on 05 Jun 2015 - 17:08, said:

Or Paul was going quicker than he had on the previous lap.

 

Or Will was braking harder than he had on the previous lap.

 

Sounds to me as though the stewards should have a talk with Paul and Will as well.

[palmwi]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 14:34, said:

Perez did not change his line, Perez was not weaving, Perez was not steering in what kind of way, Perez was braking within the braking zone. Perez took a straight line towards turn 1 to defent his position, defencive move. 

 

Massa on the other hand made the bad choice and didn't see Perez his action, made a misjudgement and steered to right in to Perez. 

 

This accident is quit simular to Monaco in a few ways.

 

And telemetry also showed that Max was braking at exact the same point as the previous lap.

 

So one of them is telling some rubish to cover up things!

 

I used this on a Dutch forum aswell:

If Paul is behind Will and telemetry is saying Will is braking later and staying on the throttle longer as is Paul braking at exact the same point as before, the gap must grow larger. But in this case the gap shrunk quickly, to quick to anticipate. So to me that means that Paul must have been braking later or Will was braking earlier/lifted the throttle.

 

Or the fact that he was just lot closer to Grosjean on the lap they made contact? If you watch the lap before you see that Verstappen closes up a lot under braking, therefore it makes sense that being a lot closer, if they both brake at the same point as the lap before he will run into the back of Grosjean.

 

I have no idea why he and many other people seem to think that because he broke at the same point as the lap before it is not his fault. He should have read the situation better, seen that Grosjean brakes early there and so should himself have braked earlier than the lap before to avoid contact, not at the same point.

 

I don't hold the incident against Max because of course these things come with experience, however I feel his response to the incident has been totally wrong and has made him appear quite arrogant.

Edited by palmwi, 05 June 2015 - 17:50.

[lars75]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 17:43, said:

Or the fact that he was just lot closer to Grosjean on the lap they made contact? If you watch the lap before you see that Verstappen closes up a lot under braking, therefore it makes sense that being a lot closer, if they both brake at the same point as the lap before he will run into the back of Grosjean.

 

I have no idea why he and many other people seem to think that because he broke at the same point as the lap before it is not his fault. He should have read the situation better, seen that Grosjean brakes early there and so should himself have braked earlier than the lap before to avoid contact, not at the same point.

 

I don't hold the incident against Max because of course these things come with experience, however I feel his response to the incident has been totally wrong and has made him appear quite arrogant.

 

I share your thoughts and vision, only such things happen even to the most experienced and best drivers in F1 throughout their carreers. 

[kvyatfan]

I agree that Massa was at fault last year. Basically a case of the books not being able to see situational track differences. There's plenty of video of it, Massa turned right into the racing line.

 

Max looked to be going faster compared to his previous lap, held his speed and didn't catch the braking point. Even if the telemetry shows that he braked at the same point it doesn't mean he used the same amount of braking, nor that he might have been carrying more speed.

 

He was in the wrong, but bringing up Massa last year was pretty funny.

Edited by kvyatfan, 05 June 2015 - 18:12.

[palmwi]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 17:52, said:

I share your thoughts and vision, only such things happen even to the most experienced and best drivers in F1 throughout their carreers. 

 

Of course, however how often do these drivers proceed after being involved in a crash to accuse the other of braketesting, which is a pretty serious allegation when you consider the nature of such an action. Or for that matter claiming that they made no mistake, did nothing wrong and needn't change any part of the way they drive.

 

Or even as a rookie have a dig at one of the most experienced drivers about an incident which wasn't even deemed his fault, not that that should even be relevant, because Massa made some, seemingly to me, quite fair remarks after the race.

 

Like I said, I don't hold anything against Max for the incident - they happen. I just feel that the Verstappen fans aren't doing him any favours by buring their heads in the sand about it and continuing to defend the manoeuvre as well as his remarks afterwards. He doesn't appear to be making too many allies in the paddock either judging by the latest Autosport headlines.  

Edited by palmwi, 05 June 2015 - 18:12.

[Szoelloe]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 17:43, said:

Or the fact that he was just lot closer to Grosjean on the lap they made contact? If you watch the lap before you see that Verstappen closes up a lot under braking, therefore it makes sense that being a lot closer, if they both brake at the same point as the lap before he will run into the back of Grosjean.

 

I have no idea why he and many other people seem to think that because he broke at the same point as the lap before it is not his fault. He should have read the situation better, seen that Grosjean brakes early there and so should himself have braked earlier than the lap before to avoid contact, not at the same point.

 

I don't hold the incident against Max because of course these things come with experience, however I feel his response to the incident has been totally wrong and has made him appear quite arrogant.

 

 

I do think RG was frustrated with an adolescent pimpleface putting the heat on him at Monaco of all places, and in a lesser car at that. I also have no idea why people think RG is Snow White in this story. It was not a crude braketest. It was a very subtle one. Maybe he was not fully aware how close  MV was, or how much off guard he will take the kid. The blame - if there is one - should go to MV, yes, but RG is not totally innocent in creating the situation IMHO. It backfired.

 

As to the response of young V, he is a better driver today than Massa ever was or ever will be.Massa has some virtues as a driver, but he is way down the driver food chain. Furthermore, Massa basically provoked him in front of the cameras which is an arrogant thing to do in itself. I like the way he reacted. I don't care if he looks arrogant. He looked arrogant on the track too. I like that. A 17 year old kid bangs into F1 and is stepping on the toes of every driver on the grid. He stirred up the mud, and pushed the mediocre ones - at least - out of their comfort zone. They ganged up on him yes, they are trying to put him in his place. If the kid has a different idea of his place, let him stand up for himself. If he fulfills the promise some people think he is, he will talk little and drive fast.

[palmwi]

 

Szoelloe, on 05 Jun 2015 - 18:36, said:

I do think RG was frustrated with an adolescent pimpleface putting the heat on him at Monaco of all places, and in a lesser car at that. I also have no idea why people think RG is Snow White in this story. It was not a crude braketest. It was a very subtle one. Maybe he was not fully aware how close  MV was, or how much off guard he will take the kid. The blame - if there is one - should go to MV, yes, but RG is not totally innocent in creating the situation IMHO. It backfired.

 

 

What exactly did Grosjean do wrong? There was no braketest, Lotus confirmed he broke later than the lap before, and do you not think he would have been punished had he braketested Max? It is silly to try and judge whether he was braketested from Max's onboard, as of course compared to Max he brakes early, but this is nothing new compared to the lap before. Just the lap before Max was further away going into the corner so they didn't crash. What do you think Grosjean gains by braketesting him anyway?

 

Szoelloe, on 05 Jun 2015 - 18:36, said:

As to the response of young V, he is a better driver today than Massa ever was or ever will be.Massa has some virtues as a driver, but he is way down the driver food chain. Furthermore, Massa basically provoked him in front of the cameras which is an arrogant thing to do in itself. I like the way he reacted. I don't care if he looks arrogant. He looked arrogant on the track too. I like that. A 17 year old kid bangs into F1 and is stepping on the toes of every driver on the grid. He stirred up the mud, and pushed the mediocre ones - at least - out of their comfort zone. They ganged up on him yes, they are trying to put him in his place. If the kid has a different idea of his place, let him stand up for himself. If he fulfills the promise some people think he is, he will talk little and drive fast.

 

So Max is better now, despite being 4-2 down in qualifying and races so far compared to Sainz, a rookie himself, than the Massa that came one point short of winning the 2008 championship. Sure.

 

Clearly, Max is hugely talented and has a lot of potential, but I think people need to calm the hype and realise he still has a lot to learn, both on and off the track. 

 

Regarding his comments, I'm sure there will be others like you that like Verstappen's hot-headedness, however I believe the vast majority of people would agree that not accepting your errors and mouthing off drivers left right and centre is not the best way to go and demonstrates, dare I say it, a lack of maturity.

Edited by palmwi, 05 June 2015 - 19:18.

[Myrvold]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 09:10, said:

But when yhou are saying this it means that Perez under no surcomstance could rightfully defend his position. If you watched the footage you clearly can see that Perez is braking in the right spot and is choosing a defensive line to the inside of the corner in a straight forward manor not weaving and changing lines. On the other hand Massa is following the track layout steering to the right into the car that is in his path. Is still do think Perez is not to blame and this case is comparable with Monaco for that manor. I think both are simular mistakes and not needed to be punished at all. 

They are not that similar, as in Canada it was the guy behind who kept his "line" while in Monaco it was the guy ahead.

He could defend it, but he needs to make his intentions clear a bit earlier, and start to move before he start to brake, as soon as you have started to brake, any kind of moving from one line to another is a no-no in my book, and from my experience.

Again, I totally see what you mean, I just don't agree with you, and I think it's right that Perez got a penalty (if someone had to get a penalty for it. It would've been better to called it a race incident and move on).

 

Just to make my view totally clear here: I mean, from my experience, that Perez should've started to move a bit earlier, as he should change lines under braking (he stops turning when the track is turning, and is by that, changing line while braking). However, a slightly bigger margin from Massa wouldn't have hurt at all, Perez could've locked up slightly and drifted a bit out as well, and it would've happened anyway. Thing is, I don't think Massa did anything wrong according to the rules, while Perez, if he hadn't started to turn at all, or turned left (gradually going left, compared to the white lines all the time), would've been clear. But he didn't.

[DarthWillie]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 14:34, said:

Perez did not change his line, Perez was not weaving, Perez was not steering in what kind of way, Perez was braking within the braking zone. Perez took a straight line towards turn 1 to defent his position, defencive move. 

 

Massa on the other hand made the bad choice and didn't see Perez his action, made a misjudgement and steered to right in to Perez. 

 

This accident is quit simular to Monaco in a few ways.

 

And telemetry also showed that Max was braking at exact the same point as the previous lap.

 

So one of them is telling some rubish to cover up things!

 

I used this on a Dutch forum aswell:

If Paul is behind Will and telemetry is saying Will is braking later and staying on the throttle longer as is Paul braking at exact the same point as before, the gap must grow larger. But in this case the gap shrunk quickly, to quick to anticipate. So to me that means that Paul must have been braking later or Will was braking earlier/lifted the throttle.

unless Paul arrived at the braking point with a higher speed

[kvyatfan]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:18, said:

 

 

 

What exactly did Grosjean do wrong? There was no braketest, Lotus confirmed he broke later than the lap before, and do you not think he would have been punished had he braketested Max? It is silly to try and judge whether he was braketested from Max's onboard, as of course compared to Max he brakes early, but this is nothing new compared to the lap before. Just the lap before Max was further away going into the corner so they didn't crash. What do you think Grosjean gains by braketesting him anyway?

 

 

So Max is better now, despite being 4-2 down in qualifying and races so far compared to Sainz, a rookie himself, than the Massa that came one point short of winning the 2008 championship. Sure.

 

Clearly, Max is hugely talented and has a lot of potential, but I think people need to calm the hype and realise he still has a lot to learn, both on and off the track. 

 

Regarding his comments, I'm sure there will be others like you that like Verstappen's hot-headedness, however I believe the vast majority of people would agree that not accepting your errors and mouthing off drivers left right and centre is not the best way to go and demonstrates, dare I say it, a lack of maturity.

 

 

'Maturity' is often mistakenly used as a synonym for 'fake'.

[Kao18]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:18, said:

 

Regarding his comments, I'm sure there will be others like you that like Verstappen's hot-headedness, however I believe the vast majority of people would agree that not accepting your errors and mouthing off drivers left right and centre is not the best way to go and demonstrates, dare I say it, a lack of maturity.

 

 

Can you get some perspective please. Verstappens hot-headedness? Mouthing off drivers left right and center? What exaclty do you draw these conclusions from? 

[ANF]

Szoelloe, on 05 Jun 2015 - 18:36, said:

It was not a crude braketest. It was a very subtle one.

Lifting off later. Braking later. Keeping the same speed as on the previous lap bar 1 km/h... That's very subtle indeed.

[Nemo1965]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:18, said:

 

 

 

What exactly did Grosjean do wrong? There was no braketest, Lotus confirmed he broke later than the lap before, and do you not think he would have been punished had he braketested Max? It is silly to try and judge whether he was braketested from Max's onboard, as of course compared to Max he brakes early, but this is nothing new compared to the lap before. Just the lap before Max was further away going into the corner so they didn't crash. What do you think Grosjean gains by braketesting him anyway?

 

 

So Max is better now, despite being 4-2 down in qualifying and races so far compared to Sainz, a rookie himself, than the Massa that came one point short of winning the 2008 championship. Sure.

 

Clearly, Max is hugely talented and has a lot of potential, but I think people need to calm the hype and realise he still has a lot to learn, both on and off the track. 

 

Regarding his comments, I'm sure there will be others like you that like Verstappen's hot-headedness, however I believe the vast majority of people would agree that not accepting your errors and mouthing off drivers left right and centre is not the best way to go and demonstrates, dare I say it, a lack of maturity.

 

 

There was an accident in Monaco, comparable to the Button/Maldonado crash in China. If anyone says now: 'Oh it was clear it was Grosjeans/Verstappens fault', immediately, without studying the brakingpoints etc, he is either a liar or captain hindsight. It was one of those crashes (again, like the Button-thing in China) of which you say: 'Eh? What happened there?' 

 

Now the FIA stewards have decided that Verstappen junior should be penalised for the accident. Most definitely they have more information than you and me and Verstappen AND Massa... The stewards have not SHARED the information on which they based that decision with either us, Verstappen or Massa. Therefore you, I and Massa and Verstappen and Grosjean can disagree about what happened in Monaco. Why is that mouthing off? Should Verstappen get on hand on knees... because a driver (Massa) who had an opinion about an accident that he did not see, did not have time to analyse, about which at the time of the expression of his opinion, he knew less than us, watching the stuff at home, or Verstappen behind the wheel?

Edited by Nemo1965, 05 June 2015 - 19:49.

[Szoelloe]

ANF, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:47, said:

Lifting off later. Braking later. Keeping the same speed as on the previous lap bar 1 km/h... That's very subtle indeed.

[ANF]

Nemo1965, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:49, said:

There was an accident in Monaco, comparable to the Button/Maldonado crash in China. If anyone says now: 'Oh it was clear it was Grosjeans/Verstappens fault', immediately, without studying the brakingpoints etc, he is either a liar or captain hindsight. It was one of those crashes (again, like the Button-thing in China) of which you say: 'Eh? What happened there?'

And here's what Button had to say:
"I thought there was room on the inside and I can't really say anything else." "An incident you never want to happen, but just a misjudgement I guess."

See? He made it mistake, he crashed into another car. He admitted it was a misjudgement. Fine.

[palmwi]

Kao18, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:41, said:

Can you get some perspective please. Verstappens hot-headedness? Mouthing off drivers left right and center? What exaclty do you draw these conclusions from? 

 

Easy:

 

Hot-headedness:

Aggressive driving style on track, which admittedly served him well until the crash and has been exciting to watch. And immediately after the incident accusing Grosjean of causing the crash on purpose by means of a brake test, which is a fairly outrageous thing to say as Button said.

 

Mouthing off:

Again, the Grosjean accusations - when in reality most people would agree that he should have apologised to RG for taking him out of a points paying position.

I know people here clearly aren't big Massa fans but he is one of the most experienced drivers on the grid, so he is qualified to have an opinion on the incident. He was asked what he thought, he told them. Not exactly trying to start the spat which Max has arguably dragged it into.

[palmwi]

Nemo1965, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:49, said:

There was an accident in Monaco, comparable to the Button/Maldonado crash in China. If anyone says now: 'Oh it was clear it was Grosjeans/Verstappens fault', immediately, without studying the brakingpoints etc, he is either a liar or captain hindsight. It was one of those crashes (again, like the Button-thing in China) of which you say: 'Eh? What happened there?' 

 

Now the FIA stewards have decided that Verstappen junior should be penalised for the accident. Most definitely they have more information than you and me and Verstappen AND Massa... The stewards have not SHARED the information on which they based that decision with either us, Verstappen or Massa. Therefore you, I and Massa and Verstappen and Grosjean can disagree about what happened in Monaco. Why is that mouthing off? Should Verstappen get on hand on knees... because a driver (Massa) who had an opinion about an accident that he did not see, did not have time to analyse, about which at the time of the expression of his opinion, he knew less than us, watching the stuff at home, or Verstappen behind the wheel?

 

That's odd, because that was seemingly everyone not caught up in the Verstappen hype. Surely you don't believe that you need every bit of data to decide who was to blame for any crash?

 

Both claim their braking points were about the same as the lap before; Max was very close to Grosjean when they crashed so needed to be aware of the fact that Grosjean had broken early there the lap before on old tyres, and be more cautious on the brakes, rather than brake at the same point. Additionally he was carrying more speed in the slipstream of Grosjean so needed to brake earlier anyway. Unless you have any real evidence to point the other way, seems fairly clearly his fault to me. (And no, disproved allegations of brake testing don't count).

 

I've already been through my thoughts on Max's comments so I won't go through it again, but I'm surprised you can't see that a little bit of humility would have gone a long way, and that he should have at least out of respect apologised to Grosjean given he was found at fault by the organisation that, as you accurately pointed out, have all the information.

[Nemo1965]

ANF, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:57, said:

And here's what Button had to say:
"I thought there was room on the inside and I can't really say anything else." "An incident you never want to happen, but just a misjudgement I guess."

See? He made it mistake, he crashed into another car. He admitted it was a misjudgement. Fine.

 

Ok. And I thought at the time and still think- and Verstappen junior has said as much - that he was not going for the overtake. He was not going for room that was not there. He misjudged the speed (or lack thereof) of the Lotus. He tried to avoid. He crashed. Very nice of Button to take the blame. But he is being too hard on himself, IMHO. Why would Max follow suit there?

 

 

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 20:06, said:

That's odd, because that was seemingly everyone not caught up in the Verstappen hype. Surely you don't believe that you need every bit of data to decide who was to blame for any crash?

 

 

React to what I wrote, please, not what you thought I wrote or were afraid of that I wrote (a case of confirmation bias). I wrote: 'If anyone says now: 'Oh it was clear it was Grosjeans/Verstappens fault', immediately...  And I will say it again: anyone who knew immediately after the crash: 'Oh, it was GROSJEANS or (that is what the forward slash means) Verstappen's mistake, suffers from hindsight. It was just not that kind of accident. We saw Verstappen behind Grosjean, we were waiting for the initial move of Verstappen... and then it happened. There was not a 'Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Yep. There you got it.'

 

Regarding the rhetorical question (in bold): 'No', obviously. But with an accident like with Verstappen/Grosjean, or like Massa/Perez last year, yeah, then I would like some more info before dealing out blame. Unlike Massa, who apparently had made his mind up before he saw anything.

 

Skip the ad hominems, by the way (everyone not caught in the Verstappen-hype). It is:

 

Edited by Nemo1965, 05 June 2015 - 20:20.

[palmwi]

Nemo1965, on 05 Jun 2015 - 20:08, said:

Ok. And I thought at the time and still think- and Verstappen junior has said as much - that he was not going for the overtake. He was not going for room that was not there. He misjudged the speed (or lack thereof) of the Lotus. He tried to avoid. He crashed. Very nice of Button to take the blame. But he is being too hard on himself, IMHO. Why would Max follow suit there?

 

 

 

React to what I wrote, please, not what you thought I wrote or were afraid of that I wrote (a case of confirmation bias). I wrote: 'If anyone says now: 'Oh it was clear it was Grosjeans/Verstappens fault', immediately...  And I will say it again: anyone who knew immediately after the crash: 'Oh, it was GROSJEANS or (that is what the forward slash means) Verstappen's mistake, suffers from hindsight. It was just not that kind of accident. We saw Verstappen behind Grosjean, we were waiting for the initial move of Verstappen... and then it happened. There was not a 'Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Yep. There you got it.'

 

Regarding the rhetorical question (in bold): 'No', obviously. But with an accident like with Verstappen/Grosjean, or like Massa/Perez last year, yeah, then I would like some more info before dealing out blame. Unlike Massa, who apparently had made his mind up before he saw anything.

 

Skip the ad hominems, by the way (everyone not caught in the Verstappen-hype).

 

Why would that be Button being too hard on himself? He misjudged it and took a driver out of a race, and so he apologised for that. Seems reasonable to me. Very similiarly, as you said, whether Max was going for a move or not, he misjudged it and his mistake forced another driver out of a points position. So yes, I think it is reasonable to expect Max to take the blame and apologise.

 

Now to the second part of your post:

Fine, maybe you can not be certain immediately after. This isn't the issue. It's two weeks since the crash and he is still not taking the blame and saying he would do nothing differently, whether or not that was evident straight away is not relevant. He has had plenty of time to accept that he was wrong to accuse RG of braketesting him but has done no such thing.

 

Regarding Massa, of course he saw the incident before he was asked, otherwise how would he have known any of the details about the crash. He called what he saw, and the stewards later agreed with him. I see no problem there.

[lars75]

Nemo1965, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:49, said:

There was an accident in Monaco, comparable to the Button/Maldonado crash in China.

 

The problem with every crash with Maldonado involved is always Maldonado's error despite everything else! 

[Jbleroi]

8 pages and counting

And that for a crash between a rookie and a seasoned driver. There must be something special going on here

[CurbPainter]

Jbleroi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 21:19, said:

8 pages and counting

And that for a crash between a rookie and a seasoned driver. There must be something special going on here

 

Too bad Hamilton just missed Grosjean in FP2, it's about time for a new subject.

[Nemo1965]

lars75, on 05 Jun 2015 - 21:00, said:

The problem with every crash with Maldonado involved is always Maldonado's error despite everything else! 

 

To be honest: that was my first reaction also! But when I saw a replay of the accident, I thought: 'Eh... no. What was that?'

 

If we accept - for the sake of argument - that Button and Max are to blame for the accidents, it still is remarkable that both a veteran and a rookie misjudged the speed or braking of the same F1 car: a Lotus. I have a hunch that the Lotus is very sensitive to fading brakes... And that if the brakes on that car go, they really go! But two incidents is to little empirical data to speak of a real trend. Let us say I've got my eyes peeled.

[JosD]

ANF, on 05 Jun 2015 - 10:56, said:

Blaming... what?

 

Was more of a general response, not in particular towards you.

[Garndell]

Nemo1965, on 06 Jun 2015 - 06:43, said:

To be honest: that was my first reaction also! But when I saw a replay of the accident, I thought: 'Eh... no. What was that?'

 

If we accept - for the sake of argument - that Button and Max are to blame for the accidents, it still is remarkable that both a veteran and a rookie misjudged the speed or braking of the same F1 car: a Lotus. I have a hunch that the Lotus is very sensitive to fading brakes... And that if the brakes on that car go, they really go! But two incidents is to little empirical data to speak of a real trend. Let us say I've got my eyes peeled.

 

I think it's a conspiracy to get Maldonado out of F1, Max just hit the wrong Lotus.  I saw the Button/Maldonado crash as a Button mistake from the off, all drivers are prone to these misjudgements and it seems like most are cases of not paying attention to the speed/placement of other cars.  As Max himself said, he did the same thing the lap before, same brake point etc but as we saw he was closer on the lap he hit so should have compensated since it "wasn't" an overtaking attempt.

 

Maldonado used to prove F1's excitement, now it's Max, maybe there only room for 1 entrertainer.

[Nemo1965]

Garndell, on 06 Jun 2015 - 12:15, said:

I think it's a conspiracy to get Maldonado out of F1

 

He is doing quite a good job himself...

[CurbPainter]

Nemo1965, on 06 Jun 2015 - 12:30, said:

He is doing quite a good job himself...

 

How much will be the cost of losing that many points and damaging cars ?...you can bring in more sponsor money, but if it's also needed to pay for the shenanigans you cause.

[sopa]

Nemo1965, on 06 Jun 2015 - 06:43, said:

To be honest: that was my first reaction also! But when I saw a replay of the accident, I thought: 'Eh... no. What was that?'

 

If we accept - for the sake of argument - that Button and Max are to blame for the accidents, it still is remarkable that both a veteran and a rookie misjudged the speed or braking of the same F1 car: a Lotus. I have a hunch that the Lotus is very sensitive to fading brakes... And that if the brakes on that car go, they really go! But two incidents is to little empirical data to speak of a real trend. Let us say I've got my eyes peeled.

 

Then there is the Australian GP. At first Maldonado looked like an innocent victim. But later it was commented that a more aware driver would have taken a wider line anyway...

[lars75]

palmwi, on 05 Jun 2015 - 19:18, said:

So Max is better now, despite being 4-2 down in qualifying and races so far compared to Sainz, a rookie himself, than the Massa that came one point short of winning the 2008 championship. Sure.

 

Clearly, Max is hugely talented and has a lot of potential, but I think people need to calm the hype and realise he still has a lot to learn, both on and off the track. 

 

Regarding his comments, I'm sure there will be others like you that like Verstappen's hot-headedness, however I believe the vast majority of people would agree that not accepting your errors and mouthing off drivers left right and centre is not the best way to go and demonstrates, dare I say it, a lack of maturity.

 

 

All the people know he has a lot to learn on and off track, nobody is arguing with that. But he is no less then others despite he didn't achieve anything in F1 yet. To me results in F1 are not important at all. I think more highly of Gille Villeneuve and Montoya then of Hill and Hakkinen for instance.

[phrank]

So Verstappen start tomorrow between Massa and Button? Interesting.

[CurbPainter]

phrank, on 06 Jun 2015 - 17:28, said:

So Verstappen start tomorrow between Massa and Button? Interesting.

 

...and he can take on Nasr maybe also, the only one of the 4 out of reach seems to be Grosjean, but Canada being really hard on the brakes and recent Lotus history, you might never know.