Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 7 votes

Proper driver penalties


  • Please log in to reply
811 replies to this topic

#1 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 04 July 2015 - 14:48

Why doesn't motor racing have them?

 

A defender punches the ball off the line in a football match.  He gets sent off and suspended.

 

A rugby player spikes an opponent.  Six week ban.

 

A driver punts another driver off.  He might get a 10 second penalty.

 

Where is the deterrent?  Where is the remedy?

 

I've just watched the Silverstone GP2 race.  The highlight was Jordan King's defence of third, then fourth, then fifth place, on worn tyres.  His driving was impeccable.  Villeneuve at Jerez.  Gasly had to work really hard to get around him; Lynn screwed his courage to the sticking post and followed.

 

And then there's Arthur Pic.

 

Pic couldn't get around.  So, at the final corner, he decided to dropkick King into retirement.

 

The problem is that King doesn't even get a finish through no fault of his own.  Pic, right now, has that fifth place, and a reverse grid fourth, whereas King will start from the back.

 

I expect Pic to be excluded from these results.  But he won't get a race ban.  Because nobody ever really does.  Maldonado has been an unguided missile for much of his career and has hardly ever been banned.  Canamassas makes Maldonado look like Herman Beam yet he still has a licence.  And don't get me started on Lance Stroll.

 

The problem is that driver penalties are not really penalties, and drivers never get sanctioned for bad behaviour.  And the result is that such behaviour is repeated.  Senna and Michael Schumacher were repeat offenders and were never punished properly.  So that now junior drivers think this is an acceptable way to behave.

 

One solution is simple.  Anyone who causes another driver to retire from a race is excluded both from that race and from the next two.  Penalty and deterrent.  And perhaps sponsors might think twice at backing someone who keeps missing races because he has the brain of slime mould.

 

There's little that can be done regarding King, but an imaginative ruling body could do something about that; indeed in this instance all they need do is give King Pic's finishing position.  And perhaps they could deduct points from championships as well.  Stop drivers Adelaiding their way to undeserved titles.  The DTM did the same sort of thing to get the right man the title after a bit of Alzen aggro.

 

And, what's more, it opens up F1 for more drivers.  For a start Mercedes would have had to give Rosberg's drive to someone after Spa last year.  Who might have parlayed that drive into something more.

 

So why are the penalties so meagre?  Cui bono?



Advertisement

#2 realracer200

realracer200
  • Member

  • 1,572 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 04 July 2015 - 14:50

What a rant.



#3 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 6,834 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 04 July 2015 - 14:51

Villeneuve at Jerez.


A typo for Jarama or is there a stellar Jacques drive that passed me by?

#4 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 04 July 2015 - 15:01

Yeah, Jarama.  After years of Tilke all the tracks are the same to me.



#5 Tony Mandara

Tony Mandara
  • Member

  • 10,180 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 04 July 2015 - 15:06

Senna was refused a licence at the start of 1990. Schumacher was banned for 3 races in 1994. Jordan appealed against a one race ban for Irvine, so they banned him for three! And more recently, Gros jean for playing wipeout2097 at the start at Spa.

'Adjust' points?! Jean-Marie Balestre? Is that you?! ;)

#6 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 04 July 2015 - 15:11

The rules already allow a strict race director to clamp down on drivers misbehaving quite a bit, but I'm not necessarily opposed to expanding their options and, perhaps more importantly, encouraging said race directors to make more use of the powers given to them by the regulations.

 

However:
 

For a start Mercedes would have had to give Rosberg's drive to someone after Spa last year.  Who might have parlayed that drive into something more.

 

This is way too broad for me; Hamilton didn't retire the car until about an hour after his contact with Rosberg.



#7 BlinkyMcSquinty

BlinkyMcSquinty
  • Member

  • 862 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 04 July 2015 - 15:28

Then never watch NASCAR because you will blow a gasket.

 

Racing is a competition, and it is always never neat and tidy with pipe-smoking gentlemen in their smoking jackets. Each race, each incident has to be judged purely on it's own unique circumstances. Nice guys finish last.

 

One of the seminal events in Formula One and one of it's most celebrated videos is the classic battle between Villeneuve and Arnoux at Dijon in 1979. It wasn't clean, it wasn't classic and clean driving, it was nasty and brutal with mistakes and banging.

 



#8 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 68,593 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 04 July 2015 - 16:37

Most of the sports penalties you listed are intentional. Most racing accidents are....accidents. I'm all for punishing gross incompetence or negligence, but people are going to run into each other. In F1 at least, we don't need people making fewer overtaking attempts...



#9 SealTheDiffuser

SealTheDiffuser
  • Member

  • 2,416 posts
  • Joined: June 12

Posted 04 July 2015 - 17:08

call the police and the 3D accident team first



#10 BlinkyMcSquinty

BlinkyMcSquinty
  • Member

  • 862 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 04 July 2015 - 17:09

Formula One racing is about pushing to the limits and that requires taking risks. One of the most repeated sayings comes from Senna, "And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win." reveals the competitive side of this sport.

 

One thing we all try to discern is whether it was just a simple mistake, an act of calculated nastiness, or just running out of talent. And one big mistake any major sport can do is over-regulate and penalize every infraction as written in the rule book. When that happens the attention is taken away from the actual game and the fans are distracted by nonsense. So the truth is that it comes down to judgement, and not all are perfect. Referees are human, they do make mistakes, they are biased. And strangely enough, those can lead to fans becoming interested to the better welfare of the sport.

 

People are still talking about the nastiness of the Senna-Prost rivalry and what occurred between them.



#11 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,566 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 04 July 2015 - 17:17

I agree with ensign, it would need a more transparent handling of incidents, and it would be controversial, but if you clearly just throw your car in there, use it as a weapon (Maldonado, Canamassas, Cecotto Jr.) and so on. You should get a proper penalty.

The way Grosjean was handled, with regards to "interfering with the championship battle" was idiotic. But race bans should be used more often. 



#12 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 04 July 2015 - 17:43

Senna was refused a licence at the start of 1990. Schumacher was banned for 3 races in 1994. Jordan appealed against a one race ban for Irvine, so they banned him for three! And more recently, Gros jean for playing wipeout2097 at the start at Spa.
 

 

You inadvertently prove the point.  Senna was serially brutal on track, there are a number of drivers who would testify to his on-track antics (Brundle, Mansell, Warwick, Prost and Nannini just for starters), yet the one time he was threatened with a ban was when he slagged off Balestre. 

 

And Schumacher was worse than Senna for disgusting driving - yet his bans were all for technical rule breaches.  He cheated to win a title and got no penalty; he cheated to try to win another and effectively got no penalty.

 

And Irvine's ban was something that any sentient being with an intelligence above that of pond scum could see was a joke.  F1 stewards right the way through to the last couple of years had not evolved to that level.

 

 

Most of the sports penalties you listed are intentional. Most racing accidents are....accidents. I'm all for punishing gross incompetence or negligence, but people are going to run into each other. In F1 at least, we don't need people making fewer overtaking attempts...

 

No.  A footballer accidentally goes in over-hard and breaks someone's leg; red card and 3 match ban.  There was no excuse today for Pic to punt King off; there was no excuse for Markelov to drive like a **** into Berthon.

 

And as for cutting down on overtaking...well, it's the holistic approach that's required.  It's a symptom of racing being too expensive, so the talented lose out to the Markelovs, and which also polishes cars to such an engineering perfection that overtaking is, in principle, illogical.  I've long advocated grids in reverse championship order because then the F1 Apathy Committee would have to come up with solutions, otherwise Manor would win Monaco.

 

And as I pointed out Gasly and Lynn got past King.  They relied on their ability and nous.  If Pic can't do that, he shouldn't be in the car.



#13 DS27

DS27
  • Member

  • 4,301 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 04 July 2015 - 17:56

For racing incidents, etc where the blame could be debated, then no.

 

But for reckless moves such as those seen by Canamasas or Cecotto then yes - those clowns should have been banned for a number of incidents i.e. deliberately driving another car off the track. Just have something like a yellow / red card system. A straight red for serious incidents or two yellows within 3 races gets a race ban. If you get done again within 12 months then its a 3 race ban.



#14 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,462 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 04 July 2015 - 18:02

Senna was refused a licence at the start of 1990.

 

Yet he started every race that year.



#15 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 04 July 2015 - 19:44

And there you have it.  Pic, for ending another driver's race and stealing points from him, gets a 20 second penalty; Rowland, for exceeding the track limits, something which does not adversely affect any other driver's chances of racing, gets 5.  The end result for Pic and Rowland, for two very different offences, is identical.  Both end up with 0 points yet both get to start tomorrow. 

 

Pic even starts ahead of King on the grid because Pic is deemed to finish 14th whereas King was classed 22nd.

 

To quote Ian Hislop.  If this is justice, I'm a banana.



#16 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,707 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 04 July 2015 - 22:16

And there you have it.  Pic, for ending another driver's race and stealing points from him, gets a 20 second penalty; Rowland, for exceeding the track limits, something which does not adversely affect any other driver's chances of racing, gets 5.  The end result for Pic and Rowland, for two very different offences, is identical.  Both end up with 0 points yet both get to start tomorrow. 

 

Pic even starts ahead of King on the grid because Pic is deemed to finish 14th whereas King was classed 22nd.

 

To quote Ian Hislop.  If this is justice, I'm a banana.

 

Here, I agree with you. The stewards have an Annex to the sporting regs that has a list of offences and suggested penalties. And when an offence has occurred, they refer to the Annex, see what the suggested penalty is, switch off their brains and apply the suggested penalty every single time regardless of the circumstances.

 

The sporting regs of every championship and series that I'm aware of are very clear that the stewards have discretion to apply any penalty they like. They don't have to stick to what's written in the folder they've been given if there are mitigating or aggravating factors that would justify a lesser or greater penalty. In this case, it isn't right for Pic to be classified ahead of King, particularly when this confers a start position advantage for the next race, so they should apply a bigger time penalty or they should exclude Pic from the classification or they should apply a grid penalty for the next race on top of the time penalty. They could easily do any of these things if they wanted.

 

But then they would need to produce a written stewards' decision that outlined the aggravating factors and explained the rationale behind their decision. They wouldn't be able to use a standard template. And if somebody appealed, they would have to be able to justify their decision. It's too much work for them and they can't be bothered. So much so, in fact, that they never, ever deviate from the standard penalty even when the standard penalty isn't enough to wipe out the advantage gained from the transgression e.g. Hamilton overtaking the Safety Car in Valencia 2010. Or more to the point, Alonso following the rules, not overtaking the safety car, and ending up buried in the pack as a result, while the car that broke the rules gained a massive advantage over him even after the penalty had been applied. 

 

And you're right, certain manoeuvres are unacceptable and the stewards are not firm enough about this.


Edited by redreni, 04 July 2015 - 22:16.


#17 f1RacingForever

f1RacingForever
  • Member

  • 1,384 posts
  • Joined: October 13

Posted 04 July 2015 - 22:37

If race bans were given for any contact with another car, i imagine drivers would be racing like grannies out there. Contact is part of the sport just as fouls are part of football. You wouldn't suspend a player for every foul would you? If anything we need less penalties. They don't change a drivers mentality so why give them out?

Studies have show that rewards for good behavior is much more effective then punishment for poor behavior. How about giving drivers a few extra points after they have kept it clean for a certain amount of races?


Edited by f1RacingForever, 04 July 2015 - 22:44.


#18 kvyatfan

kvyatfan
  • Member

  • 513 posts
  • Joined: February 15

Posted 05 July 2015 - 02:09

Probably because you have more control over your limbs than the car tyres. I can pretty easily resist slashing someone in hockey, but the nature of racing means that head-to-head battles can more easily lead to contact.

 

And, relatively speaking, in individual games/sports punishments can be much more severe than penalties in team games.



#19 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 5,194 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 05 July 2015 - 09:17

Having watched all GP2 races this year, Pic's offense yesterday was the worst. Not the most dangerous one, but it seemed that in he had  "I can't get past, so I crash into him" mindset.



Advertisement

#20 redreni

redreni
  • Member

  • 4,707 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 05 July 2015 - 17:05

Having watched all GP2 races this year, Pic's offense yesterday was the worst. Not the most dangerous one, but it seemed that in he had  "I can't get past, so I crash into him" mindset.

 

Yeah, and this is the problem. The rules are such that you can do something like that just to lay down a marker. You can send a message to a guy that if you defend too hard against me, you're not going to finish. And the thing is, the stewards can't do anything to make up for the wrong that's done to the guy that's been spun out. It's not like football, where if you get fouled, the referee gives you possession and requires your opponents to retreat 10 yards. The stewards couldn't give King anything to make up for what happened.

 

So that's why they need to ensure that the penalty is sufficient to deter this sort of thing, otherwise, there's nothing to deter drivers from having this mindset. Okay, Pic's team will be annoyed at him for costing himself a strong finish and a spot on the reverse grid, but in his mind, he's taken some pain now but he's also inflicted even more pain on somebody else, who may now think twice, in the future, about how hard he's going to defend against Pic if he wants to get to the end of the race.



#21 jonpollak

jonpollak
  • Member

  • 37,968 posts
  • Joined: March 00

Posted 05 July 2015 - 18:56

What a rant.

That ain't nuthin...
GOD DAMN THAT PENALTY AGAINST ROSSI FOR FRICKIN' RACING AND OVERTAKING AND BEING PUSHED OFF THE FRICKIN TRACK

MOTHERF

Jp

#22 sopa

sopa
  • Member

  • 12,230 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 09 July 2015 - 16:45

Modern racing penalties are often criticized for "penalizing every contact, so you can't even race properly".

 

But it is food for thought. It seems minor incidents/lower-scale accidents are analyzed to every detail, and each minor offence is given a penalty. But it seems like it is not properly thought out, what to do with truly big issues, deliberate crashes. For example Grosjean getting a race ban and Maldonado never getting one feels odd. Because Grosjean made one mistake, which had huge consequences, while Maldonado has had worse antics, but with "lesser consequences" to put it this way. If F1 had some sort of a gradual yellow card system, Maldonado could have earnt enough to get a race ban by now, while Grosjean might have escaped it (though he crashed a lot in 2012).



#23 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 12,085 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 09 July 2015 - 16:57

They do. The penalty points were introduced because of Maldonado and Grosjean smashing their way through 2012.



#24 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 01 May 2016 - 12:24

Bumping this after Kvyat's criminal assaults on Vettel gained him an almighty 10 second stop-go that will have zero effect on his chances of doing anything in this race.

 

The penalty ought to be simple.  He ruined another driver's race, so he should be black-flagged from this one, so he gets no benefit.  And he should be suspended from at least one, as a deterrent.

 

A 10 second stop & go?  That's like a referee awarding a throw-in if a defender punches the ball off the line.



#25 mistareno

mistareno
  • Member

  • 1,689 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:08

Bumping this after Kvyat's criminal assaults on Vettel gained him an almighty 10 second stop-go that will have zero effect on his chances of doing anything in this race.

 

The penalty ought to be simple.  He ruined another driver's race, so he should be black-flagged from this one, so he gets no benefit.  And he should be suspended from at least one, as a deterrent.

 

A 10 second stop & go?  That's like a referee awarding a throw-in if a defender punches the ball off the line.

 

Kvy hardly has a history of punting people off.

If viewed in isolation, both are incidents that happen reguarly.

Kvy unfortunately outbraked himself and made light contact in T2. It was just at the point of rotation for Vet so it made it look even worse.

Unfortunately Perez slowed down in T3 due to a puncture which caused Vettel (who was probably already unsure of his own tyres condition) slow down and Kyv was third man in and couldn't react.

Yeah, it was messy, and both impacts were both his fault, but its hardly criminal.


Edited by mistareno, 01 May 2016 - 14:12.


#26 LiftAndCoast

LiftAndCoast
  • Member

  • 2,398 posts
  • Joined: February 16

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:22

It's racing, sometimes drivers make mistakes, even really bad mistakes.

If we want boring races, then let's dissuade drivers from any hint of aggressiveness.

Honestly, once we put away the emotion in the immediate aftermath of this race, we will realize that what happened today is nothing unusual in the history of motorsport.

#27 F1matt

F1matt
  • Member

  • 2,035 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:32

Hopefully Christian Horner will have a word with Kyvat, the first lap no longer decides the outcome of the race with DRS and multiple pit stops, he is going to get a reputation like Grosjean did a few years ago, he doesn't have enough results in the bag to keep his seat with the Torro Rosso drivers performing like they are.

#28 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:36

we will realize that what happened today is nothing unusual in the history of motorsport.

 

So? Footballers kicking their opponents out of the match has also happened countless times, but it's still penalized severely and not with an ineffectual slap on the wrist.

 

The only reason anything might come of this is that Kvyat also caused problems for Ricciardo and pretty much ruined Red Bull's race in one go.


Edited by Nonesuch, 01 May 2016 - 14:37.


#29 Archer

Archer
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:41

In Abu Dhabi last season Verstappen lost license points after being pushed out of the track and not give up position again after it, now Kvyat crashes 2 times heavily with the same car in less than 200 meters and it is a race incident. The FIA consistency is a silly joke, Makes You wonder If They penalize the drivers arbitrarily or following some kind of agenda, they can't be so uncompetent.



#30 Okyo

Okyo
  • Member

  • 2,239 posts
  • Joined: March 14

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:44

This ain't football or whatever team sport. A player gets a ban, but the team stays and plays by sending out one of their other 12 or whatever players. If it ain't a leading player, it doesn't leave a big mark, if any. 

In F1 now, if ya loose a driver, with raaaare exceptions, the next race weekend you lose a half of a team, as replacements rarely do good. Other team sports are in no way comparable to F1.



#31 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,566 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:47

In Abu Dhabi last season Verstappen lost license points after being pushed out of the track and not give up position again after it, now Kvyat crashes 2 times heavily with the same car in less than 200 meters and it is a race incident. The FIA consistency is a silly joke, Makes You wonder If They penalize the drivers arbitrarily or following some kind of agenda, they can't be so uncompetent.

It's not a race incident. He got penalized. And do we know if he haven't been given any penalty points? I think all d/t's and 10 sec penalties have been given 2-3 penalty points before. So a S&G should give 3 at least.



#32 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 13,566 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:51

Look at that 3 penalty points as well.



#33 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 01 May 2016 - 14:58

It wasn't a racing incident.  It was a crashing incident.  Crashing is anti-racing.



#34 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 68,593 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 01 May 2016 - 15:08

20-30 seconds lost seems like an appropriate penalty.



#35 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 4,288 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 May 2016 - 15:45

Bumping this after Kvyat's criminal assaults on Vettel gained him an almighty 10 second stop-go that will have zero effect on his chances of doing anything in this race.

 

The penalty ought to be simple.  He ruined another driver's race, so he should be black-flagged from this one, so he gets no benefit.  And he should be suspended from at least one, as a deterrent.

 

A 10 second stop & go?  That's like a referee awarding a throw-in if a defender punches the ball off the line.

 

How many races should a driver be suspended for if he deliberately crashes into his WDC opponent (and team mate) on a straight and puts him out of the race?  Just wondering if your spleen was vented then in quite the same way.....



#36 Ruusperi

Ruusperi
  • Member

  • 1,290 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 01 May 2016 - 16:08

Before mid 00's drivers made mistakes that often led to retirement of either or both of the drivers (like Takagi & Badoer '99 or Ralf & Herbert '97 ) and there were usually no penalties. Why in just recent years everyone has started to demand someone to blame? It's beyond me, but I've seen the same trend in other parts of life. If one falls in the street, first thing they do is to find someone to be responsible for.

Collisions and driving mistakes are one of the most integral part of motor racing, not something that should be get rid off with harsh penalties.

 

EDIT: Of course if someone crashes on purpose (like Schumi '97), that's different. But mistakes are mistakes.


Edited by Ruusperi, 01 May 2016 - 16:10.


#37 Archer

Archer
  • Member

  • 520 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 02 May 2016 - 05:02

It's not a race incident. He got penalized. And do we know if he haven't been given any penalty points? I think all d/t's and 10 sec penalties have been given 2-3 penalty points before. So a S&G should give 3 at least.

10 Second penalty, the same as Sainz for push other car out of the track limits, and 2 laps after that Wherlein did the same and no actions taken. There is not proportionality nor consistency.

 

Look at that 3 penalty points as well.

At the time i wrote that post Kvyat had any penalty points.



#38 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:05

How many races should a driver be suspended for if he deliberately crashes into his WDC opponent (and team mate) on a straight and puts him out of the race?  Just wondering if your spleen was vented then in quite the same way.....

 

Probably was, but Autosport has murdered the chat room archive.  I've been consistent on driver penalties for years.  Indeed I was calling for Webber to be banned in the preceding couple of years because he was a serial offender.

 



#39 Henrik B

Henrik B
  • Member

  • 2,861 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:24

10 Second penalty, the same as Sainz for push other car out of the track limits

 

NO. This was also a common misconception in the chat thread. Kvyat got a 10 second stop-and-go. A stop-and-go has to be served within three laps, and you can't change tyres or touch the car. It's an extra stop PLUS you have to stand still for ten seconds. The total time lost is at least 30 seconds. A ten second time penalty like Sainz got (Nasr got a fiver) is served at a regular stop and if you don't need to stop again the time is added at the end.

 

The penalty scale during a race is:

5 seconds time penalty (Nasr) - 10 seconds time penalt (Sainz) - drive-through - ten seconds stop and go (Kvyat) - disqualification (extremely rare, last case I think was MS and Barrichello). You can also get further penalties, penalty points, etc.


Edited by PayasYouRace, 02 May 2016 - 11:08.


Advertisement

#40 Kev00

Kev00
  • Member

  • 4,328 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:46

Bumping this after Kvyat's criminal assaults on Vettel gained him an almighty 10 second stop-go that will have zero effect on his chances of doing anything in this race.

The penalty ought to be simple. He ruined another driver's race, so he should be black-flagged from this one, so he gets no benefit. And he should be suspended from at least one, as a deterrent.

A 10 second stop & go? That's like a referee awarding a throw-in if a defender punches the ball off the line.


The overreaction is pathetic. Criminal assaults? To say that causing a collision should be black flag is ridiculous. And why are people picking on Kvyat and not Gutierrez. Agree that Kvyat gets a penalty but should not be black flagged are banned for a mistake.

#41 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 57,409 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:11

Wasn't just one mistake, though, was it?



#42 Kev00

Kev00
  • Member

  • 4,328 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:24

Wasn't just one mistake, though, was it?


Oh so two mistakes = criminal assault?
The first contact was a mistake, misjudged the braking. But the second was still unfortunate. He was only guilty of not reacting when the guy in front lifts off when he should have been full throttle. If there was no mistake from Kvyat in the first corner then I don't think people would be making a fuss about the second contact.

#43 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 8,149 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:53

"When he should have been full throttle"

There's nothing Seb should have been doing. He's the guy in front, so Kvyat has to yield. He even saw the guy in front of Vettel, so there's absolutely no excuse for his behaviour. This was extremely stupid and over-motivated. If he isn't put in his place by the stewards, he will continue with these risky moves because it occasionally pays off. He should have been black-flagged imo.

Edited by Jovanotti, 02 May 2016 - 07:54.


#44 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,596 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 May 2016 - 08:06

OK, so Kvyat made a mistake under braking and clipped the back of Vettel but that is hardly uncommon in the first few corners.

 

From the highlights package the second contact looked like it was one of those combination incidents, Perez slowed with a puncture, causing Vettel to lift and Kvyat to make contact.

Maybe the FOM live feed showed extra details that might infer a different conclusion but I can see no evidence of anything deliberate on the part of Kvyat in either case - but I guess if you put a fan favorite/potential frontrunner out there is bound to be some calls for a penalty.

Incidentally - was anyone calling for Vettel to be penalised for hitting Kimi during the last race, after all it looked very similar situation to Kvyat on Vettel yesterday?  I don't recall even the slightest of hint of it one here , so maybe it is only a crime if it not a fan favorite/potential frontrunner that initiates the incident.

 

I assume Perez's puncture was the result of contact but there seems no evidence of any calling for a penalty for anyone over that . 

 

It always amazes me that posters on here can come to very firm conclusions just from what they see on the TV screen as opposed to those on the spot who have recall to a lot more information - ie the teams and even the Stewards.

 

Yesterday there seemed to be a lot of TV screen based slagging off of practically every team on their pit stop/tyre strategy during the race - maybe the teams should be recruiting those posters as it could save them a whole bundle of cash that they appear to be wasting on all this telemetry/data acquisition/simulation software and hardware.



#45 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 15,870 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 02 May 2016 - 08:20

It always amazes me that posters on here can come to very firm conclusions just from what they see on the TV screen as opposed to those on the spot who have recall to a lot more information - ie the teams and even the Stewards.
 
Yesterday there seemed to be a lot of TV screen based slagging off of practically every team on their pit stop/tyre strategy during the race - maybe the teams should be recruiting those posters as it could save them a whole bundle of cash that they appear to be wasting on all this telemetry/data acquisition/simulation software and hardware.

 
While emotions do get involved as the race is happening, the argument that the stewards have such a great understanding of things doesn't really hold up when compared to their record of inconsistent penalties and arbitrary investigations.. The drivers also don't seem too impressed, and have caused first lap collisions in all but one of the races this year.

 

It's also not unheard of to see teams (Hi Williams! Hi Ferrari!) making terrible strategic choices. It's always easier to criticize those mistakes than to come up with entire strategies beforehand, I don't think anyone is disputing that, but some of the criticism is coming in as it happens - in which case I do indeed wonder how the decisions are made.



#46 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 36,462 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:10

Can we avoid accusing drivers of criminal activities unless there's actual evidence of it? Just describe incidents as a matter of fact.



#47 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,596 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:14

I did not say they had a greater understanding - just they had access to much more data than the regular TV viewer.

 

Unfortunately it is what they do with that extra data that tends to be the problem - probably a consequence of the stewards at many GP's appearing to be historically not selected on their knowledge of motorsport - often being the head of the local ASN and a not necessarily being a regular steward at motorsport events.  I guess they are often chosen on the basis of who they are rather than what they know.

 

F1 does have a ex-driver on the stewards panel but how often have we heard comments that their input has been overruled/ignored.

 

In proper motor sport - as opposed to F1 - the stewards are only supposed to get involved in adjudicating on incidents reported to them by the CoC/Race Directror, and in the majority of cases those stewards have a history of racing experience or have come up though the ranks of marshalling - at least as far as those stewards I have come into contact with over the years goes.

.



#48 Kev00

Kev00
  • Member

  • 4,328 posts
  • Joined: July 15

Posted 02 May 2016 - 11:33

"When he should have been full throttle"

There's nothing Seb should have been doing. He's the guy in front, so Kvyat has to yield. He even saw the guy in front of Vettel, so there's absolutely no excuse for his behaviour. This was extremely stupid and over-motivated. If he isn't put in his place by the stewards, he will continue with these risky moves because it occasionally pays off. He should have been black-flagged imo.


Ok maybe I phrased it wrong but it was at a point where you would expect Seb to be at full throttle, despite the fact there was a slow FI. There was enough room for Seb not to lift at all and it didn't seem to cause any of the cars behind Kvyat to lift either, the only difference being that they had more time to react to Seb slowing.

#49 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 5,596 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 02 May 2016 - 12:04

Maybe it was a revenge brake test by Vettel!

 

Only kidding - but just as an unlikely occurrence as that being claimed by some on here that Kvyat deliberately rammed Vettel.

 

The TV footage I saw could be interpreted that way if you were that way inclined...



#50 Jon83

Jon83
  • Member

  • 5,309 posts
  • Joined: November 11

Posted 02 May 2016 - 12:28

Bumping this after Kvyat's criminal assaults on Vettel gained him an almighty 10 second stop-go that will have zero effect on his chances of doing anything in this race.

 

The penalty ought to be simple.  He ruined another driver's race, so he should be black-flagged from this one, so he gets no benefit.  And he should be suspended from at least one, as a deterrent.

 

A 10 second stop & go?  That's like a referee awarding a throw-in if a defender punches the ball off the line.

 

 

Behave yourself.