2062 replies to this topic

[SenorSjon]

I've said it before. In most races TR strategy really screws the drivers, let alone the technical issues and the 30s pitstops. I just hope both could just have a few troublefree weekends in a row.

 

They could have pitted earlier or later, but not in the same lap. Massa was really slowing them down. When you know your pitcrew isn't the best, don't try to overtake a car in front with a 1-on-1 pit battle. With the sub 3 seconds stops, it is useless to try and overtake that way. I recon Verstappen could have done a blistering lap on his tires and pit 1-2 laps later before the new tires on Massa's car got up to speed. He also wouldn't have lost valuable time behind Nasr and Kimi would still be behind them. They should have finished at least 7th because they were in front of Kimi in the first stint. They lost the gap to him because Max couldn't overtake the Mercedes powered Williams within a few laps.

[Sanderrr]

First pitstop was badly timed but with the speed advantage of new tyres, I doubt if he would have been in front of Massa if he would have stopped 1 lap later. Earlier, then for sure he would be in front.

 

Last pitstop was where they really screwed up from my view, as Kyvat proved the soft was 2.0-2.5s per lap faster, so with 14 laps to go and an expected lifetime of 15-17 laps, they should have pitted immediately. In stead, they waited for another 4 laps, thus costing them 8-10 seconds and P5.

[Requiem84]

I'd say it's really hard to rate races when they both finished, as the data sample is too small to say something meaningfull about it. 

 

Sainz has been really unlucky in the sense that car issues prevented him from showing what he can do. 

[Requiem84]

Sanderrr, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:00, said:

First pitstop was badly timed but with the speed advantage of new tyres, I doubt if he would have been in front of Massa if he would have stopped 1 lap later. Earlier, then for sure he would be in front.

 

Last pitstop was where they really screwed up from my view, as Kyvat proved the soft was 2.0-2.5s per lap faster, so with 14 laps to go and an expected lifetime of 15-17 laps, they should have pitted immediately. In stead, they waited for another 4 laps, thus costing them 8-10 seconds and P5.

 

On the first stint, they couldn't make the tires last for longer than 10 laps. When Kyvat was going 2,0 seconds a lap faster, it still was unclear how his pace would be at the end of his stint. He could have killed his tires. 

 

Max was doing pretty bad on the mediums regarding wear. Massa and Raikkonen could keep those tires alive a lot better. All in all Toro Rosso played it conservately. Because when you're at the softs for too long, he could even have lost P8 at the end to Bottas etc. 

 

Regarding his first pitstop: they could have pitted before Massa, but that would have been a really early stop. Going longer was no option and would only lose time. Not sure how they could have done better...

[Ikebana]

fastest, on 25 Aug 2015 - 06:02, said:

You are getting really tedious. Honestly, I don't see it. Do you even read the posts in this thread? I anything, I see biased flaming, hatred and animosity towards Max. And even his family now. Talking about unfair and below the belt. And I can tell you why too. Because Max is every announcer's darling, Max has been hyped, Max is a trust fund kid, etc, etc, etc... It's not Max fault that Carlos is left in the shadows. And on a side note, I don't see anything wrong with a little rivalry in these VS threads, as long as it's respectful and doesn't end up in senseless bickering and fighting. So please show me a post where a Verstappen fan has been disrespectful towards Carlos. I think you're overreacting.

 

Not tedious, some of you just don't like it. Yeah, I've read the posts in these threads and the first one started already with suggestions that Max would do a 22-0 with countless of pages and cockery to back it up, or even disrespecting forumers that didn't agree with that suggesting they lacked perspective. When Sainz finished higher, it was always put down. Saying "Sainz did a good job but Max is on a whole new level" like if that phrase was itself an argument, making up every excuse to take away any good thing CS did, every pass or whatever.

 

This may not be insulting Sainz, nobody was talking about that, but it's a way of tediously put him down. A clear sign of hatred.

 

And you are getting way ahead of yourself. Nobody said anything against rivalry in threads or whatever. Although now that I read it, William Hunt is taking a lot of shell, including accusations of trolling, for not sharing Max Verstappen "fans" opinion. In other thread I don't know if it was Kosmos or whoever nick that started with K, he said he wasn't impressed by Max and you got people calling him troll or stupid as well. It's a good summary of what happens in this thread.

 

lars75, on 25 Aug 2015 - 08:22, said:

He was complaining last year when Max took his seat, didn't he?

 

There is no hate against Sainz and we all do think he does a good Job. And we are noway of insecure about Max either.

We only do think Max does a slightly better Job then Sainz does this far!

 

lars75, on 25 Aug 2015 - 08:26, said:

 Such as?

 

Bahrein Max had problems with his engine, in China he was in front of Sainz, Barcelona Sainz did great, in Canada Max had 10 places and 10 seconds penalty. Anything I forgot?

 

If I put it this way it seems Sainz needs a lot of help to stay in fornt doesn't it. And by people like you who keep saying Sainz is in front more often (wich factual isn't true) it's that we state otherwice and then we hate Sainz?

 

So first you claim you (in plural as you used "we" which must indicates you represent a lot of people) just say Max do a slightly better job, but then 4 minutes later you claim that Sainz needs a lot of help to stay in front. And few hours earlier that unlike Max Sainz isn't spectacular in anyway.

 

You see? That's what I was talking about.

 

And yeah, you forget Australia or Monaco where Sainz did clearly better before the retirements. Also Canada.

 

Again, for being Max on a whole new level I can't see that much differences.

Edited by Ikebana, 25 August 2015 - 09:27.

[Requiem84]

Your problem, Ikebana, is that you only respond to a few posters and then claim that 'all Max' fans are disrespecting Sainz'. 

 

Read a bit more than the few posts you quote . 

 

And to be honest, I don't think Australia, Monaco or Canada are good examples...

[Jon83]

William Hunt, on 24 Aug 2015 - 18:23, said:

what also annoys me is that Jos is constantly hanging around his son or in the pits, holding his hand, it's already like that since Max' karting days. I don't see Carlos Sainz Senior in the pits are constantly around his son.

 

You seem to be annoyed very easily William.

 

Button's Father was almost always in the garage and Hamilton's Dad was in his younger days and still pops up from time to time now. Massa's full family usually seem to be in situ too.

 

I don't see the problem, it is quite normal!

Edited by Jon83, 25 August 2015 - 09:42.

[Myrvold]

Requiem84, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:31, said:

Your problem, Ikebana, is that you only respond to a few posters and then claim that 'all Max' fans are disrespecting Sainz'.

Read a bit more than the few posts you quote .

And to be honest, I don't think Australia, Monaco or Canada are good examples...

This goes both ways.
Trying to come in here as a Villeneuve and Manor-fan I get called a hater from both camps...

[Requiem84]

In the end we all are keyboard warriors aren't we?

[SenorSjon]

Requiem84, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:05, said:

On the first stint, they couldn't make the tires last for longer than 10 laps. When Kyvat was going 2,0 seconds a lap faster, it still was unclear how his pace would be at the end of his stint. He could have killed his tires. 

 

Max was doing pretty bad on the mediums regarding wear. Massa and Raikkonen could keep those tires alive a lot better. All in all Toro Rosso played it conservately. Because when you're at the softs for too long, he could even have lost P8 at the end to Bottas etc. 

 

Regarding his first pitstop: they could have pitted before Massa, but that would have been a really early stop. Going longer was no option and would only lose time. Not sure how they could have done better...

 

He was on new softs in his first stint? He was quite held up behind Massa. Perhaps he could have nudged the last bit of tire life for one blistering inlap. He would have had a free track and no Nasr in front of him. The stop with the waiting for Ericsson(?) and the outlap with a pass on Nasr costed him about 5-6 seconds. Time he wouldn't have lost with an outlap. And TR should look where they put their drivers back on track. It was very close to Nasr even without the waiting delay during the stop.

[Kao18]

Jon83, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:41, said:

You seem to be annoyed very easily William.

 

Button's Father was almost always in the garage and Hamilton's Dad was in his younger days and still pops up from time to time now. Massa's full family usually seem to be in situ too.

 

I don't see the problem, it is quite normal!

 

I have a feeling besides being half Dutch William is half Belgian.

 

That would explain some of his 'objective' views on Max, his family and the Dutch media.

[Cloxxki]

I do feel that it's better to prevent being undercut and getting held up, having to overtake to regain position, all to have a better life in the tires on your last laps.

With those cars behind him during the last stint, it's easier to defend position by the time they catch up (if at all) than to try and overtake them last-minute on tires that have lost most of their advantage. I'd rather have the positions and a clear track for 10 laps than to have to catch up and try and gain places near the very end.

It seems insane, but Max really did lose out on pit strategy, and those were very expensive places. Easily could have doubled his points without doing any more driving or overtaking. Red Bull team must be appreciating that in their car, he would not have lost those places to have to retake them through on-track overtaking. He's equalling Kvyat's performance, but he came from a lot further on the grid. Was nearly in last position through La Source.

Back to Carlos in context of this VS thread. His misfortune here is really messing up the statistics of average track position, place won, etc. Will be complicated to compensate for it. But keeping Spa out of Max's portfolio seems unfair. How much better would any driver have done? I can see a top driver having made the Raikkonen overtake work, and then be positioned to also nip Massa. But really Max didn't deserve to be behind them at that stage.

Can any of the Carlos fans extract any positives from his participation in the race? Sector times? Time gained on the McLarens and Saubers?

Edited by Cloxxki, 25 August 2015 - 10:23.

[Ikebana]

Cloxxki, on 25 Aug 2015 - 10:17, said:

[...]

Can any of the Carlos fans extract any positives from his participation in the race? Sector times? Time gained on the McLarens and Saubers?

 

"His" you mean Max? I don't know what's the point of asking Carlos' fans in particular to say anything about MAx. I think most of the the few CS fans that dared to participate in these thrads gave enough credit to Max now and then.

 

If it's about Carlos, then, why should we? He started with a car that was broken and ended the race retiring. Why should we try to take into account his times done with a broken car?

[Requiem84]

SenorSjon, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:48, said:

He was on new softs in his first stint? He was quite held up behind Massa. Perhaps he could have nudged the last bit of tire life for one blistering inlap. He would have had a free track and no Nasr in front of him. The stop with the waiting for Ericsson(?) and the outlap with a pass on Nasr costed him about 5-6 seconds. Time he wouldn't have lost with an outlap. And TR should look where they put their drivers back on track. It was very close to Nasr even without the waiting delay during the stop.

 

Massa did a purple sector 2 on his outlap on mediums, staying out wouldn't have made a difference for VES. Perhaps he would have gotten out in front of Nasr. 

 

Having to wait for Ericcson is hard to calculate, you can't know who's coming in that lap. 

 

I think that in general TR's strategy is not the best, but I don't think an alternative strategy would have helped this instance. 

[Kao18]

Ikebana, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:54, said:

The post you are quoting contains more information.

 

No, insulting, demeaning or attacking people personally is something that has to be seriously remarked.

 

Especially when some forumers suggested there's not hostility towards Carlos or people that dare to defend him. There you can read how some of us have to put up with such hostility. Like that since the beggining. And again, just read back or in the previous thread and more people will point it out.

 

The problem is that you seem to think that people attacking Max in this thread, talking bad about him and his family or about the Dutch media coverage are defending Sainz. They are not, they are just sharing their frustration they have with Max or his fans for whatever reason. 

 

You could replace Sainz with any driver Mr. X and they would still post the same.

 

I hardly see anyone here ever analyzing Carlos' race or his performance and if someone makes an attempt at that it's usually something in the line of 'Sainz beat Verstappen again in qualifying'.

 

I like Sainz, very much, from what i have seen of him I think he is a great driver and he is a cool guy. And to be honest I believe a lot more Max fans here then you think share that opinion.

[Buttoneer]

You guys need to stop discussing other people and instead talk about what they are posting.

If someone is being abusive or trolling, then report them and let us deal with it. We may remove them, but if not then you will at least have made sure they are on our radar. You will help us and become part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

This thread is not for discussing the sins of the Father(s) but the two 2015 STR drivers and how they match up against each other.

[lars75]

Ikebana, on 25 Aug 2015 - 09:18, said:

Not tedious, some of you just don't like it. Yeah, I've read the posts in these threads and the first one started already with suggestions that Max would do a 22-0 with countless of pages and cockery to back it up, or even disrespecting forumers that didn't agree with that suggesting they lacked perspective. When Sainz finished higher, it was always put down. Saying "Sainz did a good job but Max is on a whole new level" like if that phrase was itself an argument, making up every excuse to take away any good thing CS did, every pass or whatever.
 
This may not be insulting Sainz, nobody was talking about that, but it's a way of tediously put him down. A clear sign of hatred.
 
And you are getting way ahead of yourself. Nobody said anything against rivalry in threads or whatever. Although now that I read it, William Hunt is taking a lot of shell, including accusations of trolling, for not sharing Max Verstappen "fans" opinion. In other thread I don't know if it was Kosmos or whoever nick that started with K, he said he wasn't impressed by Max and you got people calling him troll or stupid as well. It's a good summary of what happens in this thread.
 

 

 
So first you claim you (in plural as you used "we" which must indicates you represent a lot of people) just say Max do a slightly better job, but then 4 minutes later you claim that Sainz needs a lot of help to stay in front. And few hours earlier that unlike Max Sainz isn't spectacular in anyway.
 
You see? That's what I was talking about.
 
And yeah, you forget Australia or Monaco where Sainz did clearly better before the retirements. Also Canada.
 
Again, for being Max on a whole new level I can't see that much differences.

You need to read! As I say, "when I put it this way it seems"

So I'm not saying it is!

And the fact you're saying Sainz does better in races factualy isn't true. There multiple statistics handed and displayed in this thread to prove you wrong. So why holding on to this illusion?

All this doesn't mean Sainz is rubbish are doing a bad job and it dosn't mean I'm disrespectful either.

[Sanderrr]

Indeed, Massa on the new softs was much faster so stopping later would not have put him in front of Massa, but probably in front of the Sauber which now held him up for at least one lap, so that's a few seconds lost. But to be honest, the first stop was not the best (tactically and in execution) but defendable in not losing too much time against Massa, unfortunately the stop was a bit slow and he ended behind the Sauber too.

 

In the beginning of the race, the softs lasted for 10-12 laps, but that's with full fuel load and less rubber on track. With an almost empty car, more rubber on track and a decreasing track temperature, I heard the BBC stating that 15 laps on soft could be done. STR could have responded immediately after Kyvat stop thus pitting Max with 14 laps remaining, but even pitting with 12 laps remaining would have resulted in 2 more laps (at 2.5s per lap) advantage. So Raikkonen and Massa easily, and maybe Perez too.

 

I asked Max's race engineer on Twitter and he replied that they were unsure on how long it would take Max to overtake Bottas after the stop, so the original plan was to stay on medium I guess. However, overtaking Bottas would only mean he'd get back where he was before that stop, and to overtake Bottas there were more than enough laps remaining, so for me the stop to softs would have been a no-brainer.

[Kao18]

Sanderrr, on 25 Aug 2015 - 11:35, said:

Indeed, Massa on the new softs was much faster so stopping later would not have put him in front of Massa, but probably in front of the Sauber which now held him up for at least one lap, so that's a few seconds lost. But to be honest, the first stop was not the best (tactically and in execution) but defendable in not losing too much time against Massa, unfortunately the stop was a bit slow and he ended behind the Sauber too.

 

In the beginning of the race, the softs lasted for 10-12 laps, but that's with full fuel load and less rubber on track. With an almost empty car, more rubber on track and a decreasing track temperature, I heard the BBC stating that 15 laps on soft could be done. STR could have responded immediately after Kyvat stop thus pitting Max with 14 laps remaining, but even pitting with 12 laps remaining would have resulted in 2 more laps (at 2.5s per lap) advantage. So Raikkonen and Massa easily, and maybe Perez too.

 

I asked Max's race engineer on Twitter and he replied that they were unsure on how long it would take Max to overtake Bottas after the stop, so the original plan was to stay on medium I guess. However, overtaking Bottas would only mean he'd get back where he was before that stop, and to overtake Bottas there were more than enough laps remaining, so for me the stop to softs would have been a no-brainer.

 

Might that move have been a defensive one originally? I believe Bottas was lapping a bit faster and to make sure Max would keep his position and seeing Kvyat was going so well on the fresh softs they might have decided to bring in Max to make sure he would at least stay 9th. (Vettel was still in the race at that point).

 

Perhaps a bit later they realized Max might still catch that group in front of him.

 

Besides I don't think it was that obvious just based on Kvyats first few laps on fresh softs Max would be 2.5 seconds per lap faster then that group in front of him for every single lap. 

[Requiem84]

Sanderrr, on 25 Aug 2015 - 11:35, said:

Indeed, Massa on the new softs was much faster so stopping later would not have put him in front of Massa, but probably in front of the Sauber which now held him up for at least one lap, so that's a few seconds lost. But to be honest, the first stop was not the best (tactically and in execution) but defendable in not losing too much time against Massa, unfortunately the stop was a bit slow and he ended behind the Sauber too.

 

In the beginning of the race, the softs lasted for 10-12 laps, but that's with full fuel load and less rubber on track. With an almost empty car, more rubber on track and a decreasing track temperature, I heard the BBC stating that 15 laps on soft could be done. STR could have responded immediately after Kyvat stop thus pitting Max with 14 laps remaining, but even pitting with 12 laps remaining would have resulted in 2 more laps (at 2.5s per lap) advantage. So Raikkonen and Massa easily, and maybe Perez too.

 

I asked Max's race engineer on Twitter and he replied that they were unsure on how long it would take Max to overtake Bottas after the stop, so the original plan was to stay on medium I guess. However, overtaking Bottas would only mean he'd get back where he was before that stop, and to overtake Bottas there were more than enough laps remaining, so for me the stop to softs would have been a no-brainer.

 

I believe Max' sector times already started to drop around lap 8/9 on the softs. 

 

In hindsight, we know that the softs were thát good at the end of the race. But Ferrari also thought they could do 1 stop on mediums, however, it already exploded on lap 25 or so... No way of predicting the softs would last that long on a lower fuelled car

[SophieB]

Buttoneer has very politely asked you all to draw a line under your petty squabblings and instead discuss the drivers instead of each other. From the posts I have removed, it seems like some of you are not willing to respect that.

 

I must ask you to do so again, while I take action with those who chose not to do that. Discussion by PM only (if needed), please. 

[Cloxxki]

It seems Raikkonen on a 2?-stop took advantage of Max et al stopping. He continued a couple laps more on a clear track (While Max was playing rookie battle with Nasr) and got out in front of Max.
The fact that Max landed in that traffic due to stopping along with others may well have cost him as much or more than he might have won pitting a lap earlier. 

Of course you don't want to be 2nd or 3rd in a group lapping slower cars. Easy to get stuck for half a lap or more while the others disappear into the distance.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

At this very moment Max is back at work, practicing Monza with his sim buddies.

 

[Ikebana]

lars75, on 25 Aug 2015 - 11:13, said:

You need to read! As I say, "when I put it this way it seems"

So I'm not saying it is!

And the fact you're saying Sainz does better in races factualy isn't true. There multiple statistics handed and displayed in this thread to prove you wrong. So why holding on to this illusion?

All this doesn't mean Sainz is rubbish are doing a bad job and it dosn't mean I'm disrespectful either.

Read yourself. Didn't say exactly Sainz does better in races, just that he did in the mentioned ones as you asked if you were missing something.

 

You see? And all because it's being said there's not being such a big difference between them, which seems to be the horror to say for some, and then the need to exaggerate. 

Edited by Ikebana, 25 August 2015 - 19:04.

[A3]

There's not much difference beween them.










Except for the fact that Max has a weight disadvantage because of the big ass balls he's carrying around.

[Lipp]

Ikebana, on 25 Aug 2015 - 19:01, said:

Read yourself. Didn't say exactly Sainz does better in races, just that he did in the mentioned ones as you asked if you were missing something.

 

You see? And all because it's being said there's not being such a big difference between them, which seems to be the horror to say for some, and then the need to exaggerate. 

Yes, as Autosport gives both of them an 8 for their performance at Spa, you are absolutely right. there is not much difference between them. I personally think Max was born 'lucky'...

[Cloxxki]

Lipp, on 25 Aug 2015 - 20:30, said:

Yes, as Autosport gives both of them an 8 for their performance at Spa, you are absolutely right. there is not much difference between them. I personally think Max was born 'lucky'...

Some are born lucky, others handsome.
Is there a precedent for someone being so lucky as an F1 driver and being credited for being exciting and quick? Handsome drivers as far as the eye can see. 

[Requiem84]

I must admit, I think Sainz is one of the drivers who will appeal to female F1 fans the most

[Requiem84]

As most of you know, Max Verstappen plays some iRacing to practice the upcoming tracks etc.

 

It turns out that Max had been practicing the move into Blanchimont online. How brilliant is that?. 

 

See for yourself:

 

[Gilles4Ever]

There is a tendency here to treat this a Max Verstappen or Carlos Sainz thread and news and discussion about one or the other, a driver thread. This is not what the thread is for, this is Max Verstappen versus Carlos Sainz is is for comparing them to each other, this is not a clubhouse for one driver or the other, this is not a driver thread. Abide by the forum rules please.

[Humbug]

A3, on 25 Aug 2015 - 19:15, said:

There's not much difference beween them.

Except for the fact that Max has a weight disadvantage because of the big ass balls he's carrying around.

What on earth do you mean with "big ass ball"? Hemorrhoids? ....Poor kid, having such problems at that age.

 

If you mean he shows a lot of courage, I agree with you. Much more than Sainz (to stay on topic). But that is not making him a better driver.  So I agree also with your first sentence.

[JosD]

Humbug, on 26 Aug 2015 - 09:23, said:

What on earth do you mean with "big ass ball"? Hemorrhoids? ....Poor kid, having such problems at that age.

 

If you mean he shows a lot of courage, I agree with you. Much more than Sainz (to stay on topic). But that is not making him a better driver.  So I agree also with your first sentence.

 

Indeed, however IMO the fact that he can already trail and on occasions outshine Carlos tells me he has the higher ceiling. Especially when you take into account the large experience difference between the two of them. I also am of the opinion that there is an electric atmosphere around Max, an atmosphere that does not surround Carlos (in my view). Do not get me wrong as Carlos is having a highly impressive first season in F1, but his peaks are not quite as high as those we have seen from Max. He has however been the more consistent driver, but I think that is something that can, for a large part, be explained by him being more experienced. 

[sjakie]

I think you're right. Verstappen has a higher ceiling. The kid is going to be a great champion if he can keep improving. However I do not hope he will do a Capriati as you sometimes see with youth talents: not coping with the pressure of everyday performing with fading away as a result. That would be the only thing keeping him from being world champion material.

 

Sainz on the other hand can also grow into a great driver although I think he already is near his full capacity. He is more an Alan Jones type of driver. Always there doing decent performances but when it comes together he can be unbeatable on occasion.

[Jon83]

He's probably like much of the field in that respect.

[Cloxxki]

In a sense Carlos is right, this is about F1 experience more than feeder series experience. Although the latter does help.
Most of this season, Max has been mixing it up with former world champions, both in faster and slower cars, and a range of other drivers in cars of various speeds.
By now, the only cars he's not been battling are obviously the Mercedes and Manor.
If battling Raikkonen's Ferrari doesn't count, what does? In Canada there was nog much of a fight with Vettel, but in Spa he was fully ready for Raikkonen.

Carlos really has been getting the short straw in Spa, this would have been a huge experience and performance boost had it gone as well as with Max. And really, doing as  good as job as Max would have meant from his starting position to beat Kvyat for 5th. Max was chasing Kvyat most of the race from 18th, Sainz with his good start refexes should have been way up the track, allowing himself many laps before Kvyat would reach his slipstream. 
This is the kind of race I'd have expected from Max had he qualified as well as Sainz. Much less traffic to deal with.
But honestly, I've not seen anything from Carlos this season that would suggest he'd get big points from a race like Spa, from any grid position. This season, good quali pace just doesn't automatically translate into good races. Blame it on Pirelli, blame it on DRS, blame it on quali vs race setup. A conservative driver simply does not get high pointsin a race like that, in a car like the STR. I think Carlos in a functioning car, dependently doing his laps, would have kept Ericcson out of the points, but no-one else. Meaning, the gap from Kvyat to Max would have been smaller than the gap from Verstappen to Carlos. 
Having missed out on the Spa race to draw experience from may well cost Carlos more than the one or two points he could have gotten there.

It's such a shame we rarely get to see them BOTH on the track, let alone until the finish line.

Of the past 4 races, Carlos retired EACH with technical problems (some sources credit him with 17th at Spa). While Max got points in 3 of them, and spun out of the 4th.

Max is now 10th in the WDC. 
1 through 8 are occupied by neatly ordered Merc, Fer, Wil and RB drivers. 9th is Grosjean in the more reliable (but overall perhaps not better) Lotus.
So max is in the 6th car in the standings. STR is 7th in the constructor championship. Target of 5th is now Lotus with 50 vs. STR's 35 points.
If Monza sees the Lotus team take part, and only there for the rest of the season, it will be hard enough to make 5th on the CS. Force India is also unlikely to stop scoring points.

It may be too much to ask Carlos to turn things around at Monza. High speed track, unreliable car... Perhaps incur a hefty grid penalty to get some reliability on the Renault side of things? I hope for him he'll score good points. Vettel won for STR in 2008, so why not Carlos?
Carlos and Max were doing a rain dance together before Spa. It didn't help, but Max also didn't need it.

I can't wait for Monza. And I am now much less sceptical about points to be won for STR now that Spa showed good speed and competitiveness even from the very back of the grid.

[SenorSjon]

2008 was the RB chassis with a better engine than the mothership. Sainz is on his 4th engine, will they incur a penalty to have a new engine for Singapore?

[Seanspeed]

William Hunt, on 24 Aug 2015 - 13:36, said:

To be honest, apart from his age, there is nothing extra ordinary that Max is doing this year. He is not performing any better as previous Toro Rosso drivers (Buemi, Alguersuari, Ricciardo, Speed, Vergne, Kvyat...) and not even beating his teammate: Sainz is more often than not quicker as him but he has had more bad luck (4 DNF's in a row now because of technical issues). Stoneman, Gasly or Felix Da Costa would have done just as well. Toro Rosso has a quick car this year, quick but unreliable.

I don't know how you can watch motorsports/F1 for that long and have such a terrible eye for talent.

[Requiem84]

Seanspeed, on 26 Aug 2015 - 12:03, said:

I don't know how you can watch motorsports/F1 for that long and have such a terrible eye for talent.

 

If we consider Max as thé talent in F1, we should consider Sainz to be most talented qualifier on the grid. 

 

His laptime in qualifying at Spa was pretty special in Q2. He couldn't repeat it in Q3 however, but still I think it was a really special lap. 

[Cloxxki]

Requiem84, on 26 Aug 2015 - 12:56, said:

 

 

His laptime in qualifying at Spa was pretty special in Q2. He couldn't repeat it in Q3 however, but still I think it was a really special lap. 

Was it?
Seems he was just getting all out of the car a session too early.
His Q2 time would still have been 10th, and 1.9s off pole. Was it on Mediums?

Why did he lose so much time in Q3? Problems with the car, or didn't see the point to push a set of tires for maybe 9th?

To keep it on topic, Max seemed to have been planning to go all-out only later in quali. PU issues and grid penalties seemed to not make that worthwhile. so tires were spared. One strategic decision I think worked out well.

[Requiem84]

Sainz was 0,5 faster in sector 2 compared to Verstappen that lap. That is the same gap Hamilton had to Rosberg in S2. 

 

Verstappen's alledged engine issues cost him 0,2 in S1, but he gained time on Sainz in S3. As S2 is more or less a sequence of corners, a small engine issue can't account for 0,5 seconds in that sector. Especially not compared to their differences in S1 and S3. 

 

http://www.fia.com/f...?token=UhHOLt5o

Edited by Requiem84, 26 August 2015 - 13:27.

[Buttoneer]

Cloxxki, on 26 Aug 2015 - 13:08, said:

Was it?
Seems he was just getting all out of the car a session too early.

That's a very odd statement. They aim to get the most from the car they have every session, except the teams may allow a little more freedom with engine settings and fuel delivery with each session and of course the track beds in.

[Cloxxki]

Buttoneer, on 26 Aug 2015 - 13:45, said:

That's a very odd statement. They aim to get the most from the car they have every session, except the teams may allow a little more freedom with engine settings and fuel delivery with each session and of course the track beds in.

Odd only if misunderstood.
As seen in the beginning of the year when it was hard for the STR boys to improve upon their Q2 times in Q3, Sainz had the same. A great time is not needed in Q2 if you make it through. Of the top-10, only Vettel and Sainz failed to improve in Q3. Vettel lost less than a tenth, Sainz seven 10ths. The top-8 on average found four 10ths if I am eyeballing it correctly.

Do you feel Hamilton's Q2 time was all he had at the moment?

I get the impression that Max leaves the really hard pushing until later. Not saying that he'll always succeed in extracting lots of extra time, he's no quali miracle.

[JosD]

Requiem84, on 26 Aug 2015 - 12:56, said:

If we consider Max as thé talent in F1, we should consider Sainz to be most talented qualifier on the grid. 

 

His laptime in qualifying at Spa was pretty special in Q2. He couldn't repeat it in Q3 however, but still I think it was a really special lap. 

 

It simply is difficult to compare the times of Q2 due to the issues that Max reported at the end of Q1. That being said I think Max indeed is better in the races than in qualification, and I think that Carlos at the moment is better in the qualifications. However this difference is also the result of Carlos having driven 150+ qualification sessions in the lower classes against 24 (or 30+ when you include FWS) for Max. This surely makes a lot of difference as well. However when it comes to raw talent MV most definitely has the upper hand, but it will need to be polished more, and that simply takes time.

[Kao18]

Cloxxki, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:00, said:

Odd only if misunderstood.
As seen in the beginning of the year when it was hard for the STR boys to improve upon their Q2 times in Q3, Sainz had the same. A great time is not needed in Q2 if you make it through. Of the top-10, only Vettel and Sainz failed to improve in Q3. Vettel lost less than a tenth, Sainz seven 10ths. The top-8 on average found four 10ths if I am eyeballing it correctly.

Do you feel Hamilton's Q2 time was all he had at the moment?

I get the impression that Max leaves the really hard pushing until later. Not saying that he'll always succeed in extracting lots of extra time, he's no quali miracle.

 

Sainz did a very good qualifying in Spa, the goal was to get into Q3 and for that he needed to deliver in Q2 and he did (at the right moment).

 

You can not compare his qualifying build up with Hamilton. From free practice it was never sure TR could make it into Q3 unlike Hamilton who was always going to be in it. 

 

Sainz' lap in Q3 might not have been perfect but even it would it probably wouldn't have helped him much. And for all we know he might have been pushing really hard because he knew there was a big gap to P9 and made a small mistake somewhere.

 

You can question a lot of things about Sainz but his qualifying has been pretty impressive up til now and Spa was definitely up there with his best in my view.

.

[Requiem84]

Cloxxki, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:00, said:

Odd only if misunderstood.
As seen in the beginning of the year when it was hard for the STR boys to improve upon their Q2 times in Q3, Sainz had the same. A great time is not needed in Q2 if you make it through. Of the top-10, only Vettel and Sainz failed to improve in Q3. Vettel lost less than a tenth, Sainz seven 10ths. The top-8 on average found four 10ths if I am eyeballing it correctly.

Do you feel Hamilton's Q2 time was all he had at the moment?

I get the impression that Max leaves the really hard pushing until later. Not saying that he'll always succeed in extracting lots of extra time, he's no quali miracle.

 

There is a clear difference between the faster cars and the midfield cars.

 

The midfield cars can barely make it to Q3, and therefore will turn up the engine fully for Q2 already. 

 

The Mercs turn on their alledged special qualifying engine mode for Q3 and Hamilton and Rosberg can basically cruise into Q3... Most often you see cars that barely reached Q3 have a hard time to improve as they already are on their maximum. Sainz obviously delivered an amazing Q3 lap, denying both Hülkenberg and Kyvat (in faster cars) a place in Q3. In addition, Sainz was problaby aware that even a better time in Q3 would not have gained him any places as the other cars were simply too fast. 

 

Thinking back, when did we see Max extract everything on 1 lap pace thusfar? 

 

Aus: mistake
Mal: yes, wet Q
China: mistake

Bah: bad q

Spain: about optimal (close to Sainz)

Monaco; sub optimal team mistake (tires too cold for both cars)

Can: no

Austria: yes

Silverstone: car issue

Hungary: Yes

Spa: unclear

 

So, looking back at it he had 3 great Q's: Malaysia, Austria and Hungary. 

He's made mistakes in Australia & China
Lacked pace in Bahrein & Canada

And had technical issues in Monaco, Silverstone and Spa

 

Still enough room for improvement there from Max, although the trend is quite clearly upwards luckily..

[Requiem84]

JosD, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:15, said:

It simply is difficult to compare the times of Q2 due to the issues that Max reported at the end of Q1. That being said I think Max indeed is better in the races than in qualification, and I think that Carlos at the moment is better in the qualifications. However this difference is also the result of Carlos having driven 150+ qualification sessions in the lower classes against 24 (or 30+ when you include FWS) for Max. This surely makes a lot of difference as well. However when it comes to raw talent MV most definitely has the upper hand, but it will need to be polished more, and that simply takes time.

 

I think you can compare the Q2 times. Why? Look at sector 1 and 2: Max didn't lose that much in the power sectors, so he should lose even less in the aero dependent sector. Yes, it's assuming, but it has a logical base.

 

Second: in general rookies are up to speed quite fast, it's more the consistency that is lacking. Experience does count, but think back to Magnussen who outqualified Button last year in his first race, or Nasr getting up to speed straight away in the Sauber. 

 

I personally see 'raw qualifying speed' more as something that you have from day 1. With more experience you can show that at almost every reach, while less experienced drivers tend to make more mistakes and have bad q's. Carlos was really fast on 1 lap from the very first race. As such, I believe this is one of his strengths. As for Max, he's improving indeed...

[JosD]

Requiem84, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:24, said:

I think you can compare the Q2 times. Why? Look at sector 1 and 2: Max didn't lose that much in the power sectors, so he should lose even less in the aero dependent sector. Yes, it's assuming, but it has a logical base.

 

Second: in general rookies are up to speed quite fast, it's more the consistency that is lacking. Experience does count, but think back to Magnussen who outqualified Button last year in his first race, or Nasr getting up to speed straight away in the Sauber. 

 

I personally see 'raw qualifying speed' more as something that you have from day 1. With more experience you can show that at almost every reach, while less experienced drivers tend to make more mistakes and have bad q's. Carlos was really fast on 1 lap from the very first race. As such, I believe this is one of his strengths. As for Max, he's improving indeed...

 

Uhm, Max set no time in Q2. So the only comparison is the last stint in Q1, where Verstappen reported issues. Comparing those times would be like comparing the race results of both drivers as well, where on a logical basis Sainz's issues were solved as well, however I doubt that such a comparison makes much sense, nor that it is realistic. As for Magnussen he had six seasons of lower formula experience, even more than Sainz has.... Fact is Sainz and Magnussen followed the far more conventional route to F1, whereas Verstappen skipped several classes. On your same logical base MV is learning what these guys learned in lower classes 

[Requiem84]

JosD, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:33, said:

Uhm, Max set no time in Q2. So the only comparison is the last stint in Q1, where Verstappen reported issues. Comparing those times would be like comparing the race results of both drivers as well, where on a logical basis Sainz's issues were solved as well, however I doubt that such a comparison makes much sense, nor that it is realistic. As for Magnussen he had six seasons of lower formula experience, even more than Sainz has.... Fact is Sainz and Magnussen followed the far more conventional route to F1, whereas Verstappen skipped several classes. On your same logical base MV is learning what these guys learned in lower classes 

 

You're right, but it doesn't change:

 

Sector 2 in Q1:

Verstappen: 49.367
Sainz: 48.863

 

That's a straight comparison from the same session. 

 

Further:

 

Sector 3:

 

Verstappen: 29.076
Sainz: 29.159

 

So the engine issue wasn't that bad that Verstappen lost time in sector 3... 

 

Regarding your other point: the hypothesis is that experience does not matter in relation to speed. Take Lance Stroll for instance in F3, no experience, but very fast from day 1. However, very error prone and amazingly bad at wheel to wheel racing...The exceptional thing from Verstappen was that he was consistent in F3 from day one, and that he was exception in racing wheel to wheel. But as noted already, there seems to be an upward trend in qualifying for Verstappen . 

Edited by Requiem84, 26 August 2015 - 14:44.

[Cloxxki]

Indeed Max's issues are not apparent in the times. Perhaps he did something special there already?

I agree that Max isn't a natural qualifier. In all the pre-F1 footage I've seen of him, he was winning races and having to overtake others to get to P1. His grid position seems to be of much less consequence to him than for others. Being half a second slower in quali, perhaps due to the racer mind set more than the qualifier mindset, or just a bit risk-shy in terms of pushing the car, losing 3 grid places, it doesn't seem to really keep him from getting in front of Sainz's track position in races.

 

On the one hand Max doesn't seem to have the ultimate feel of what the car can do over one lap, but in the rain he often gets it really right. And Monaco FP1, his first time there, was really strong.
I don't think we'll see Max consistently outqualifying any team mate the rest of his career. In Rosberg's place he'd not qualify better. But he'd also not be trailing his team mate all race.

Was Max's setup for Spa perhaps more soft tire specific than for others? It was clearly chosen strategy to go foor 3x softs and 1x mediums. Earlier this season he got harder tires to qork just fine, but in Spa that little stint, and it being stretched too long still, cost him several finishing places IMO.

[f1buzz]

Requiem84, on 26 Aug 2015 - 14:43, said:

You're right, but it doesn't change:

Sector 2 in Q1:

Verstappen: 49.367
Sainz: 48.863

That's a straight comparison from the same session.

Further:

Sector 3:

Verstappen: 29.076
Sainz: 29.159

So the engine issue wasn't that bad that Verstappen lost time in sector 3...

Regarding your other point: the hypothesis is that experience does not matter in relation to speed. Take Lance Stroll for instance in F3, no experience, but very fast from day 1. However, very error prone and amazingly bad at wheel to wheel racing...The exceptional thing from Verstappen was that he was consistent in F3 from day one, and that he was exception in racing wheel to wheel. But as noted already, there seems to be an upward trend in qualifying for Verstappen .

The engine issue was bad enough for it to change the engine. It also bad enough to not set a time in q2.

And Max his own words " he had to manage his problem in q1 in that round. There for is it not fair to compair s2. See verstappen.nl

And take away qualifying with pu problems because you can compair than it is 5-4 to Sainz. So Max isn't doing that bad in qualifying after all is it?

That said Sainz was doing a great job in spa. And yeah it is 1 of his better points, and there for it is a great drivers paring who can learn from eachothers strongly points.

Edited by f1buzz, 26 August 2015 - 14:59.