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Nota Cars - Larger than Life!


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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 23:39

Nota were well established before I ever came upon them...

Strangely enough, they were located in the same street in which I'd been born, Smith Street in Parramatta. They were right down by the river in an old shed where Guy Buckingham and his workers toiled day by day.

I think the first time I was ever there was when they had a '63 Chev in there to be converted to a hearse, so their work was diverse, they did things other than build racing cars.

Tuning was another thing I saw Guy doing there, perhaps there was a twin-carby Triumph Herald needed a bit of adjustment one time I was there.

Of course, I saw many Notas racing. The Nota TACE was the most obvious, a Hillman-powered car from Town & Country Engineering. I saw Guy himself and Joe Bosworth out on the circuit plenty of times too in Clubman-type cars.

Peter Wilson, Bob Rollinghoff, David Medley, there were many Clubmans ran through the sixties and into the sixties. And, of course, in 1965 they began building Formula Vees. Ian Cook's Nota Renault F3 car was the next car I looked at closely, then came my own racing period and I became well aware of many more Notas, both swing-axle and wishbone type during my association with Clubman racing.

This was when I met Pat Goulding, who subsituted a beam axle in the front of his hillclimbing car for its original swing axles, something I'd earlier done with my Hustler. Along the way my friend Malcolm Smith found a Fiat 1100-powered car, it was bricked up in a shed while the owner was on holidays ("For playing with cars," his father told Malcolm). This turned out to be the Nota Fiat and Malcolm had fun with it for a few months.

Historic Racing saw some of the older cars were trundled out, while the Nota Fang had made a small mark on the scene as a road-going car. I think I remember one racing as well, briefly.

First dilemma:

Bruce Bloodworth, who came into Clubman racing around the early eighties, did a book about Notas. I had to do a magazine review of this book and I was quite surprised to read a note on the back of it. Something along the lines of, "Guy took one of his cars to the Australian Grand Prix meeting at Albert Park in 1956 and won the main Sports Car race."

That just didn't ring true. I felt sure that if this had happened I would have heard about it before. Apart from that, some pretty good Sports Cars were in evidence that week in Melbourne, D-types, C-types, even Healey 100Ss would be more potent on that circuit than Guy's primitive first offerings.

"Perhaps," I thought, "he had a class win?" But I didn't have the wherewithal to check that up at that time. But I do now, as I have the AMS full report on both meetings and scanning it I find:

There is no mention of Guy Buckingham or any Nota in the reports. Nor is there any mention of them in the results, which are given down to third place in each class for every race!

Second dilemma

When I went googling I found three websites mentioning Nota, principal among them is the Nota site itself:

http://www.notasport..._History_1.html

There are a number of things on this page which I'm sure others could rip apart, but one that stands out to me is the number of Vees produced.

38 cars are claimed!

That is 17 cars more than the chassis number register says they made. It's pretty much double what you'd expect if you looked over race entries through the years and accepted that some cars were never finished, never raced or only used at hillclimbs.

The bodies for Vees were built by Ted Proctor and he says things that tend to agree with this. His initial answer when I asked how many he built was, "It's hard to say, probably about 35." Then he went on to say that perhaps ten were built for people who didn't have the Nota chassis, but simply wanted a body for another car.

Third dilemma

The number of Clubman cars stated on the website is 'nearly 100'. It further states that they continue to make, and always have made, Clubman cars to order.

The chassis number register's view? Fewer than half that number, 45 cars with chassis No 44 being a rebuild of chassis No 18.

Granted, more might have been built since the book was published... but I don't think they would impact severely.

Summary

This thread has been posted in the 'Historical Research' sub-forum for the specific reason that I want to do something to counter the falsehoods which are extant about Nota achievements.

Nota did plenty of good things, built some quite useful cars and achieved some good racing results, there is no need to embellish the facts with things such as the above.

They should not be trying to be larger than life...


.

Edited by Ray Bell, 23 September 2015 - 23:45.


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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 00:06

If all the above is difficult to handle, I now offer something more in the same vein...

Fourth Dilemma

http://www.notasport...0_Prototype.jpg

This was linked a couple of years ago on TNF by Graham Clayton. At the time it was quickly identified by others as being one of the late '60s F3 cars they built.

Owners of these cars were Eric Beattie, Ian Cook, Alf Lee and John Tuxford, all of these cars having 1968 chassis numbers. 1968 was before there was any serious talk of F5000 coming to Australia, by the way.

#3 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 05:41

The 1963 reference to a hearse came from the association with Wal Hadley. 

 

When Wal came from england he needed both employment and a place to work.  Guy had the space and Wal had the body building skills to complement Nota's various efforts. Wal had a backgound in the UK with, I believe, Williams and Pritchard, and was a very accomplished body builder.

 

Wal's first interest was in converting sedans into hearses.  Wal did nota work by day and stated on his first hearse on the side.

 

After some time Wall split off on his own doing hearses full time and relocated his business to Wentworthville.  I believe it was near the railway tracks but could be wrong.

 

Wal did not make Guy too happy when some time later he tried to dabble in clubman cars with a singular lack of success.

 

The best thing Wal had going for him besides great body shaping ability was a most gorgeous wife.

 

Wal died quite young but I don't have a good fix in what year.  it may have been the mid-1970s.

 

Regards



#4 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 08:12

Ray, let's see if we can put some of your dilemmas to bed.  I will start with:

 

"First dilemma:

Bruce Bloodworth, who came into Clubman racing around the early eighties, did a book about Notas. I had to do a magazine review of this book and I was quite surprised to read a note on the back of it. Something along the lines of, "Guy took one of his cars to the Australian Grand Prix meeting at Albert Park in 1956 and won the main Sports Car race."

 

Perhaps you can help me with a a better reference than which you gave. Specifically I pulled out my copy of the Bloodworth/Moore book published in 2006.  I find no reference as you so describe in the back of the book.  I went through it twice and the closest reference to anything even close was found on page 13, " Guy then built a sports car and enterred a round of the Australian Sports Car Championship.  He won his class much to the chagrin of local competitors".   The book gives no reference as to which Nota or track that was invlolved.

 

However, from my Nota days, (1960 through to the end of 1966), I do remember some similar discussions that might apply.  The car might well have been chassis 10, the Team Streamliner built with a Mazengarb OHV conversion on a Morris 8/40 engine that was built in 1957.  That would have placed the likely period of the race in 1957  or '58.

 

Now I am the first to admit that I wasn't there at the time.  Those '57-'59 years I was much more interested in competing at the likes of Road America, Watkins Glen, Connesville, Montgomery, Put in Bay, Dunkirk, Stout Field as well as many others.  In other words I can give you only the benefit of hearsay tempered with a few known facts.  However I have phoned the other half of Nota Eng, Michael Martin and he can remember nothing such as that which you describe.  

 

I am happy to leave Dilemma 1 at that in the absence of much better info.

 

Regards



#5 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:10

Does that give 1956 as the year, Joe?

The "Australian Sports Car Champsionship" didn't exist until the late sixties. From 1956, however, the Australian Tourist Trophy was the highest title in the country for Sports Cars.

#6 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 11:45

Ray

 

I know nothing about OZ racing pre 1960 as I said above.

 

I also said above, "The book gives no reference as to which Nota or track that was involved".

 

Regards



#7 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 13:07

That's right, Joe...

But what year is mentioned?

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 13:39

Just to put the thing to rest, if we assume that the ATT is the race, and there can be no other in that period, then no Nota placed anywhere in any of those races up to and including 1960.

And something else...

Fifth Dilemma

Since you mention the Nota Mazengarb it has reminded me that the website claims that all of the 'streamliner' Notas came to be called 'Nota Mazengarbs'.

I'm sure you'll agree that this isn't true.

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 21:20

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
.....I have phoned the other half of Nota Eng, Michael Martin and he can remember nothing such as that which you describe.....


It's good to know that Michael is still around, Joe...

He must be a fair age now (as is Guy, of course), where does he hang out?

#10 Joe Bosworth

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 04:55

Michael is aged 82 and lives at the Dural house.

 

Guy is 95 and lives on Thane Rd, Haddenham, Bucks, UK  When I last saw Guy aabout 4 years ago he was in super shape and had only re3cently ended his band trumpeting stint of many decades.

 

Mentioning Michael, I always am concerned that he seldom gets enough credit for his role in Nota Eng.  He was a perfect foil and balance to Guy.  He was also the most fastideous craftsman that I have ever seen near a racing car and/or engine.  His attention to fine detail was great to behold.  For instance, when Guy did a frame he was dimensionally perfect over suspension pick up points was sometimes 3 mm out on overall dimensions.  When I did a frame I had the points perfect and overall well within 2 mm.  When Michael did one the tolerances were spot on, period.

 

This used to leave to some interesting periodic shouting matches between Guy and Michael over how long it took him to finish a job. Guy wanted to deliver on time and Michael always said they could wait to appreciate a perfect job.  Guy's retort was that the client could never measure the difference anyway and it had no affect on performance as long a pick up points were right. :clap:

 

regards



#11 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 06:05

That reminds me of what happened to Kevin Carrad...

Check this out, Joe:

http://forums.autosp...ndpost&p=118290

In the meantime, I'll try to schedule in a visit with Michael some time.

#12 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 21:33

I've heard, indirectly, from Bruce Bloodworth on this issue...

He's apparently of the opinion that I've maligned him regarding his book. But, in truth, I haven't. The mention on page 13, "Guy then built a sports car and entered a round of the Australian Sports Car Championship. He won his class much to the chagrin of local competitors", is clearly not Bruce's doing.

Like myself, Bruce was not there. He relied on information from others and it's clear that at least one of those channels is not as firmly dedicated to the truth in these issues as this Historical Research forum.

It's been said to him that he should contact me about this. Thus far he hasn't, I'm disappointed in that.

Anyone compiling a book, a magazine article or even a post on this forum, should really check their sources, make sure the information is factual and - if necessary - be prepared to accept correction if it's not.

Bear in mind what I said in the opening post to this thread... "Nota did plenty of good things, built some quite useful cars and achieved some good racing results, there is no need to embellish the facts with things such as the above.

They should not be trying to be larger than life.."

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 02:15

Time for a closer look...

I wrote initially, "I was quite surprised to read a note on the back of it. Something along the lines of, "Guy took one of his cars to the Australian Grand Prix meeting at Albert Park in 1956 and won the main Sports Car race."

Here it is from the back of the book, one of which I was able to look at last week:

1215_Notabookbackcover.jpg

Obviously, for this to be true - ie. the statement, "When a young, jazz trumpet playing Oxfordshire man won his class with a home built special in a round of the Australian Sports Car Championship in late 1956, the locals were merely miffed and slightly amused..." - then I'd expect to find something in my AMS race reports. Wouldn't I?

So I started looking. I began with the June, 1956, issue and went through issue by issue, looking at every race report that might - even obscurely - have provided me with any clues as to what this statement is really about.

We have some basic information that means the search must be broad. First, there was no Australian Sports Car Championship in 1956 and therefore no rounds of a championship. This was why my initial question related to the Australian Tourist Trophy, as that was the 'Championship' instituted in that year. It just didn't have 'rounds', it was a single race.

The first mention I found about Guy was in Spotlight in the October issue. But let's not put the cart before the horse here, let's look at the racing scene into which Guy was finding his way.

There were TC Specials aplenty, including the 'Wheeler Fortune' with its mid-engine layout. In the June Spotlight column we have a comment from Bob Pritchett that Col James had been in a conflict with James Madsen in his Cooper, the description of this implies that damage was done to the Barclay MG James was piloting.

In August's column, Bob mentions a new car being built by Jack Pryer (sic?) for John Archibald - "reputed to weigh 9½ hundredweight angry, this machine has a chassis of box section (like the early Coopers), with independent front suspension on the Cooper system, its rear axle on radius rods, Panhard bar and coil springs, the box frame reinforced by an integral body frame of square steel tubing, and the engine which Rex Daniel has developed over a period to drive it faster and faster." This was a developing segment of our motor sport of the time.

James was back at Mt Druitt for the late-winter meeting but had problems with his car while dicing with Ian Steele's TC Special and the Lotus 6 of Doug Chivas. It would seem, however, that he was biding his time as a new car was being built.

October's Spotlight sees Bob report the following regarding Bathurst prospects:

"Doubt was also being entertained by Col James whether he would be performing at Bathurst - for one thing his new car might not be ready, and for another, Col has been a very sick boy - appendicitis, apparently proceeding normally, but then one of the stitches developed an abscess and peritonitis set in, laying him low for almost six weeks. He is still shaky and gets tired very easily so thinks that Bathurst may be out.

His new car, which will used the old engine, will use the front and back ends of the car he bought from Ray Revell (built originally by Nat Buchanan), namely transverse independent leaf at the front and De Dion back, to be joined together by a space frame, designed by an Epping (N.S.W) character who learned the tricks from Colin Chapman, they say, but there isn't all that much time left before Bathurst and it doesn't do to go off half cocked on these matters.
"

Following Bathurst, where the car won the under-1500cc Racing Car event, Bob reported this:

"The new James car looks very pretty even if its body is not properly finished yet; Col had no difficulty at all in winning the under 1,500 scratch race but, partly due to the fact that they set the caster angle with one set of back wheels and spring, then put in a flatter back spring and fitted smaller wheels, thus making it singularly hard to handle, and partly due to not having a proper screen or a front to the bonnet so that Col was sitting in a 120 m.p.h. gale, which upset him a bit as he was still not properly well after his bout of illness; what with one thing and another he was so busy coping with distractions during the hundred miler that he managed to oil plugs a couple of times, so gave it away.

He was, however, tickled pink with the car, and says it will be a beauty when the odds and ends have been tidied up. Guy Buckingham, who dreamed up and built the space frame, has (I am informed by reader Crewe*) had many enquiries about chassis, both sports and racing, for M.G. and Holden motors, from a number of well known drivers. The gear shift linkage on the Barclay M.G, very similar to that on a Cooper-Bristol, was made by Mike Martin, who helped with the car's building.
"

* One of Bob's regular informants.

In the race report for the September 30, 1956, Bathurst meeting it's commented:

"The Barclay M.G. had undergone a complete face lift, as related from time to time in these columns, and appeared as virtually a new car, with space frame, independent front and de Dion rear suspension, and quite a sightly body, designer and builder Guy Buckingham dancing attendance."

Not so good was the result at the November 11 Mt Druitt meeting, however:

"Last for the season, the November meeting at Druitt was largely uneventful except for poor Col. James' tremendous prang, in which he just about wrote off the new car and busted some of his ribs - it happened on the Sweeper, where tar was starting to come through the surface (it had been made a no passing area once again) and nobody seems to know just what happened except that Col. rolled a good four times and was a very lucky boy....."

The crash had occurred in practice and was described in the race report: "...in which the new car was ruined and Col. himself sustained injuries from which he's still recovering in hospital - at the time of going to press, no outside visitors were yet permitted to see him. As far as can be ascertained, his car went out of control in the sweeping bend onto the airstrip, rolled three times, then went end for ends; Col. broke three ribs and a skull fracture was suspected, besides facial lacerations and other minor injuries."

Possibly this crash set back some of Guy's plans, potential orders might not have come through as a result. But if this didn't slow things down, the comment on page 79 of the March, 1957, issue would have demanded some second thoughts. Again, from Spotlight:

"Col James is just about back on deck again after his prang; later examination revealed a couple of cracked vertebrae that they hadn't cottoned onto earlier, so that he will be wearing a sort of harness for quite some time, but otherwise he is pressing up well. Vital parts of his car such as the motor, radiator, tank, and difficult bits of bodywork are comparatively unharmed but the frame is a complete writeoff - as it seemed that it would never be made to handle, this may be no great loss. Col is at present taking an understandably jaundiced view of the proposition that he should continue racing when he is completely recovered, but may be brought to see the light - we can ill afford to lose a driver of his quality, and wife Jocelyn is all in favour of his return tot he ranks, so if his car can be rebuilt in a manner that will make it reasonably certain that it will go where he points it, we can only hope for the best."

In the September, 1957, Spotlight Bob writes that Bill Reynolds had a drive of the Doug Chivas Lotus 6, liked it and bought it. Then he says:

"Reynolds is to drive the Barclay MG for Col James for a while - although Col is much better than he was and in most respects is almost back to normal, he thinks that five minutes in the Barclay with its TC suspension would probably go so close to breaking his back again that he would be laid up for another few months."

Clearly, Guy and Col James had no more to do with each other. In fact, it's not until May, 1958, that Guy and/or Nota get another mention, that's on page 231 in the Silverdale Hill Climb report:

There, on page 231 it lists K. Bradburn as coming eighth in his class in a Nota Ford with a time of 56.39. In the narrative it mentions the first-timers:

"Three interesting Specials appearing for the first time on the hill were Bradburn's Neta (sic) Ford, a smooth little Ford 10 Special, vaguely Lotus-like....." and "Bradburn's quite pretty little Nota-Ford was much quicker than it had been in practice and spun going out of the first corner during the rain, bur was allowed to have another go."

At the October Bathurst, the AGP meeting of 1958, John Schroder's Nota Consul's performance is mentioned briefly. I found no mention of this car in Garner's hands, but it is a Racing Car and not really what I was looking for.

Things were starting to happen for Guy by the end of 1958, it seems, even though it's two years after the 'late 1956' quote from the book. At the Foley's Hill event of November 16 (page 557) it records that Guy went well:

"A surprisingly good time for a Morris Minor Special of 30.3 secs. was registered by Guy Buckingham in his very pretty Lotus-style machine by name of NOTA, of which he is the originator."

A picture of the car at that event shows it to be one of the streamliners:

1215fr_AMSnov58_Guy_Buckingham.jpg

Guy placed second in the under 1,500cc Sports Cars class behind John Evans' TC, on the same day John Schroder was third among the Racing Cars with a time of 29.0.

The next Nota mention was at the January Gnoo Blas meeting where Brian Schroder came third on scratch and second on handicap in the last race of the day after dicing with Bill Cooke's Peugeot Special and Alwyn Rose.

We are now delving into reports from 1959, where I'll admit that AMS became a bit less detailed. Foley's Hill on February 8 saw Alec Lazich second in the 1,500 Sports class in his Nota, in March at the same venue Bill Newcombe in his Nota Singer was unplaced on his first competition appearance.

Guy turned out again for a Sprint event held on the road at the top of Foley's Hill in April, recording a very consistent 20.0 seconds on each run to be unplaced, but for comparison we see that George Murray did 19.8 seconds with his Austin 7 Special.

As you can see, I've spent a lot of time looking for the elusive event where Guy won his class (even if it was not in late 1956) and impressed everyone. It just isn't there, at least not in a major event. We do know from John Medley's Bathurst book that Guy raced there in the NSW Road Racing Championship for Sports Cars in October that year and failed to finish.

Once again I'll try to impress upon readers, the point of all of this is that Nota did some good things, so there is no need for them to be made larger than life!

In this 'Historical Research' corner, it harms their credibility if anyone tries to do that...





.

Edited by Ray Bell, 17 December 2015 - 03:46.


#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 03:03

It occurs to me that the building of the Barclay MG by Guy makes for a parallel between Nota and Elfin...

Garrie Cooper's first car, the Cooper-Butler, is accepted as the progenitor of the Elfin line. Yet it was built on a foundation laid by another constructor, Eldred Norman.

In the same way, the first of the Buckingham creations was built using the front and rear ends from Nat Buchanan's car raced by Ray Revell.

#15 Dick Willis

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:00

Ray, the comment on the back of The Nota Files you are referring to was probably written by Chris Buckingham so why don't you ask him. He visited us Nota owners at Eastern Creek a few weeks ago following his Dad's passing.



#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:10

I realise that, Dick...

The point is that it's obvious there's no real point in asking him anything.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 17 December 2015 - 08:10.


#17 Dick Willis

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 08:57

Why, he is keenly interested in the Nota marque.



#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 14:10

So he is, Dick, of course...

But you have said yourself that the incorrect information probably came from him. I've just spent the best part of two full days of my life thoroughly going through magazines to see if there was any tiny shred of fact that could have been construed to give the statement any veracity at all.

I came up with nothing.

It's very clear that Guy was not racing in 1956, even if he was it was impossible for him to win his class in a round of the Australian Sports Car Championship. Do you know when the first round of the Australian Sports Car Championship was held? May 4, 1969!

Even the events in which I found he competed he didn't win his class... and that's right up to the end of 1959. Nor did I find any of his cars doing so.

I will add that it's likely there was a meeting or two at which the cars competed which wasn't covered, like a Schofields or a Mt Druitt, but I don't think it's likely that this will substantially alter my case.

Add to that the Nota website where a Formula 3 car from the 1100cc era is shown as a prototype F5000, then there's the exaggeration of production numbers, which Joe has partially verified, it shows that there's absolutely no point in talking to Chris.

As a Nota owner, Dick, I'd have thought you'd also be somewhat horrified at all this inaccuracy. Or exaggeration. Or... well there is another word for it which compares such diatribe with the excrement of a male bovine.

As I have repeatedly stated in this thread, this is not about knocking Nota or what Nota have done, it's about refuting the assertions that have been made which are simply not in accordance with the facts.

#19 Dick Willis

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 19:05

It will be interesting to see if Joe responds to this.


Edited by Dick Willis, 17 December 2015 - 19:06.


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#20 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 22:37

Unfortunately, as Joe has already stated, he wasn't there during this time...

The real problem I see is that he feels that I'm deriding Guy and Nota with this thread. I'm not, I'm just trying to set the record straight.

If anyone has details of an event I've missed, I'd be delighted to hear from them. Guy's appearance at Bathurst in October, 1959, for instance, is not recorded in any way in AMS and John's results in his book don't go far enough for his results to be known.

#21 GMACKIE

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 20:35

I am sure there are some who - like myself - have useful information, however do not want some 'Doubting Thomas' regularly shooting them down.



#22 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 23:13

I wouldn't suggest that I'm a 'doubting Thomas', Greg...

The fact is that there was no round of an Australian Sports Car Championship held until May, 1969. This I knew, it's a simple fact, no need for doubting or guessing.

And now I have looked to see if it might have been some other race - or even event - that might have been the basis for this statement. And even though I've looked diligently in the best source of the day, I've gone further and explained that there may have been some minor event which wasn't covered in AMS and I'd have missed that, but the results found so far show that Guy did not win his class in anything at all up until the end of 1959.

This thread is not anything to do with demeaning Nota cars of the fifties or Guy Buckingham, nor his contribution, which I have repeatedly posted in this thread. This thread is about the inaccuracies and almost laughable promotion of the Notas of that era by person or persons not necessarily named to a point at which it has become embarrassing.

As for Joe, who I regard as a great source for accuracy about this subject, he has agreed that he knows nothing about the main (1956) issue because he wasn't there, and he contacted Michael Martin, who was there, and Michael has no idea about it either.

Greg, I started this thread to get to the truth about it, that is why it is in the Historical section, said to be a "Fluff-Free Zone" and requiring greater factual backing than some might expect of the Nostalgia Forum. I'm happy if anyone comes up with ANYTHING which might point to the statement on the Bloodworth/Moore book being correct, but at least as it pertains to the dating (Guy had only built one car to this time and it had crashed into oblivion at its second outing, though it had won at its first) I have done all I can to seek evidence and it's just not there.

A quick look at this pic - http://www.notasport...0_Prototype.jpg - will show that there are people about who are trying to unnecessarily overstate the early Nota achievements for some purpose or other.

When Graham Clayton posted that photo here, Paul Hamilton, Lindsay Ross, John Medley and Bryan Miller all readily identified it as a F3 car, Lee Nicolle suggested it might be an F2 car, between them they pointed out that the size of the car, type of frame, the wheel sizes were all inadequate for F5000 cars and that no mention was ever made in the period of Nota venturing into F5000. Check Graham's thread... http://forums.autosp...5000-prototype/

As for me, I'm only interested in accuracy. You seem to have taken the view that I know nothing, that I have no 'useful information', I don't know why.

#23 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 04:22

Ray, a small point, although the Australian  Sports Car Championship wasn't contested until 1969, from 1956 to 1968 we had The Australian Tourist Trophy which was for sports cars of the period with winners such as Maserati 300S, Aston Martin DB3S, Cooper Monaco etc. Wouldn't a Nota Sports Car have contested a race such as this if it is the category in which a class win is claimed ?



#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:31

A small point already covered, Dick...

Yes, the Australian Tourist Trophy was instituted as the Australian title race for Sports Cars in 1956. This was why I was so interested in looking at the Albert Park results, as that was where it was held.

Guy simply wasn't there, nor was he there at any of the succeeding Australian Tourist Trophy races held in 1958 at Bathurst (there was no ATT race in 1957), nor at Lowood in 1959. In 1960 the race was held at Longford, he was not there (or at least not mentioned in the report or the results), in 1961 it was at the October Bathurst and he was not there, similarly the 1962 race at Mallala if the skimpy reports I've looked at are any indication.

In fact, Dick so far the only Nota entry I've found out of NSW to the end of 1959 was Ross Pentecost, whose Nota 500 won a 4-lap handicap at Phillip Island on December 13, 1959.

Of course, Jon Leighton soon changed that when he got a Nota Sportsman.

But regarding the ATT, no go there anywhere like in period, and I'd think it's unlikely of the 1964 ATT at Longford, I know he wasn't there in 1965 at Lakeside, nor '66 at Longford. But we're a long way from the proposition now, aren't we? That Guy's cars were surprising people with a class win in a major race in 1956.

One thing I did find that might surprise you is that the Australian Hillclimb Championship, shown in the CAMS Manual as a single event from 1938 to 1971, then again from 1976 onwards, was actually run in two heats in 1958. On November 2 it was at Templestowe and on November 4 it was at Rob Roy. The VSCC ran the Templestowe event and the LCCA ran the Rob Roy event.

Which goes to show that there are still little things out there which might surprise you. Apart from these hillclimbs, the only Australian title decided by a series prior to 1966 was the Gold Star.

There's just nowhere for the story to come from!

#25 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 07:48

Out of all this rummaging I did find something... but it was from 1961...

At the Easter meeting, Guy drove his Junior to second place in a 5-lapper at Bathurst, or maybe it was second place of the 1500cc and Formula Junior cars within another race. Nevertheless, this was only after Leo retired the Lotus, he followed Tom Corcoran home. Joe was following along behind Guy and Laurie Whitehead's Ausper.

Not a startling success, but something...

#26 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:28

Here's another one for you, Ray. At the  Warwick Farm opening meeting on 18/12/1960, Event 2, racing cars under 1500ccs, with a special class for Formula Junior racing cars :

G. Buckingham, Nota FJ, 5th outright and first Formula Junior.



#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 08:53

Yes, that's a good result all right...

I think Guy was really getting it together by the time he built the Juniors. Some of the 'streamliners' were good enough but hampered by having poor engine choices, with the Juniors and (to the greater extent) the Clubmans the engine choice was more logical and the cars were more successful.

All the same, that result doesn't fit the 'round of an Australian Sports Car Championship' description and it wasn't even close to 'late 1956'.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 19 December 2015 - 08:54.


#28 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 09:45

Might the comment on the back of The Nota Files have become confused and perhaps should have read " A Formula Junior event late in 1960" And he wasn't the only one entered either.



#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 10:46

Four years, a totally different category and not a round of an Australian series? I think not...

What other entries were there, Dick? The AMS report is a little light on for facts, though you can glean that he was a lap plus a minute behind Syd Howard's TC Special at the finish.

#30 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 19:52

Other FJ entrants were ; Schroder, Nota,Samuels, Lotus, Corcoran, Lola. The other under 1000cc entrants were air cooled so not FJs. Remember this was the wet meeting and if a car spun it was disqualified  so obviously Guy hung in there to the finish and a win is a win no matter how far behind the 1500 cars he was.


Edited by Dick Willis, 19 December 2015 - 19:55.


#31 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 20:51

Schroder was not in the Nota Consul?

#32 Dick Willis

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 22:50

No, the programme clearly says Nota FJ, 986ccs, blue in colour.



#33 DanTra2858

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 00:43

Was the Howard SC MG Special the Nota variant or still running a MG chassis, the first Nota cars that I remember were the Clubman of Alec Lazich & the SC MG Nota, this would be 1960/1, well thats my 2 bobs worth.

Edited by DanTra2858, 20 December 2015 - 00:44.


#34 Dick Willis

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 02:01

The Howard MG was the ex Col James car at that stage, the Nota MG which used some of the TCs components first ran later in 1961.



#35 Dick Willis

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 05:33

A correction ; The John Schroder car at the WF opening meeting was the Nota Renault, not one of the Nota BMCs as I at first thought.



#36 DanTra2858

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 07:28

Are there any photos of these early Nota,s & date when they were built?

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 12:06

I posted some of them a couple of months ago, I'm not sure which thread they are on...

They were Brian Rawlings photos and included the Ross Pentecost car.

#38 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 14:27

Sorry, Daniel, I only posted one of the Pentecost car from Claire Russell, it's on P194 of the Australian photos thread...

I must have posted this one somewhere:

0915amosnota.jpg

It's one of the first Notas, the Amos car.

#39 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 14:31

Originally posted by Dick Willis
The Howard MG was the ex Col James car at that stage, the Nota MG which used some of the TCs components first ran later in 1961.


How interesting it is that the Col James car had two shots at becoming a Buckingham creation!

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#40 Dick Willis

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 23:52

Are there any photos of these early Nota,s & date when they were built?

 

Daniel, with my usual bias can I refer you to the HSRCA Historics thread a couple of pages back for the meeting at SMP on Nov 28/29, first post, bottom pic of 5, for a nice pic of an early Nota, the 29th built. racing no 64 on it.



#41 DanTra2858

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 08:18

Thanks Dick

#42 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 December 2015 - 10:20

Daniel, in post No 13 there's a pic of a streamliner...

This would probably be the first of the cars that Guy raced. It's certainly the first one of which I've found a record.

#43 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 22:10

Sorry, Daniel, I only posted one of the Pentecost car from Claire Russell, it's on P194 of the Australian photos thread...

I must have posted this one somewhere:

0915amosnota.jpg

It's one of the first Notas, the Amos car.

What wheels are they? Look like very lightened FJ Holden. Lightened to the point of disaster!

The car appears to have odd front tyres also, the shoulder ribs are different.



#44 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 December 2015 - 02:11

Ford Prefect or Anglia wheels, Lee...

As would be the brakes. The inner row of holes are extras, the outer ones, the squared off ones, are standard. They'd be 16" wheels, too, and it was never unusual to see odd tyres on a car back in the day.



.

Edited by Ray Bell, 26 December 2015 - 02:18.


#45 DanTra2858

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Posted 30 December 2015 - 19:17

Where can one obtain a copy of the Bloodworth book?

#46 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 December 2015 - 01:49

Rod Moore is on 0407 333 840...

But as there were only 250 printed - at least initially - they might be in very short supply.

#47 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 January 2016 - 07:55

Ford Prefect or Anglia wheels, Lee...

As would be the brakes. The inner row of holes are extras, the outer ones, the squared off ones, are standard. They'd be 16" wheels, too, and it was never unusual to see odd tyres on a car back in the day.



.

Seniors moment! Were Anglias 5 stud? They were 16",, by about 3.5"  About 4 25x16 tyres.

A40s had huge 4 75x16"

I still maintain they are drilled too far!


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 01 January 2016 - 07:58.


#48 DanTra2858

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Posted 01 January 2016 - 08:32

Lee remember that the early Nota was a very light car & the corning forces would not be a huge force due to the type of tyers available in that period, I believe the holes would have been drilled to assist brake cooling for they were very small & would of been working very hard. Just my thoughts & memories from the early 1960.

#49 TREV

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 13:01

Ray,

seeing as your on a NOTA research bent, I would like to get some early history of my car.     Clubman Chassis No 62 built in 1965.

what I know about it is what Guy told me in his "sales pitch" at the time.   ( although it didnt matter what he said I was going to buy it in any event)

originally built with 1100 herald engine and gearbox for team NOTA.    It was originally yellow.   The picture on the front cover of the NOTA files is actually my car.

The caption states Guy in action c.1962  when in fact it is Guy in chassis number 62.  The car was painted black before the end of 1965.    Guy drove it at the Farm in 65 ( I have a photo it is black and with #66 )  It was also driven by Les or Sid Howard and I was told by Guy that it held the lap record at the Farm ( long or short ??) for Clubmans driven by one of the Howards.  I seem to recall  it was painted black at L or S Howards request before ? Howard drove it.   As far as I know it was hardly used in 1966 if at all.   You know the story , only driven on sunday except when practice was on saturday. When I got the car it was sitting in the barn at dural all covered in dust so...? 

I got the car in June 1966 from Guy without engine and gearbox and fitted a sunbeam engine and gearbox, I have had the car ever since. It is still black and still carries #66

I would like to know the early history. up to when I purchased it.

Thanks

Trevor

 

BTW

I have chassis 50 the rear engined sports racer with Climax engine.  It started construction in 62.    The NOTA files describes it as something different saying it was not finished -  the car was in fact finished. It was never raced however, having been dismantled not long after it was all together.  I have a photo of it in the Ice Works all complete but the top half of the body work removed or perhaps not even made at this time. 

cheers 



#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 15:55

Trevor, it's unlikely that I could dig up anything specific on that car...

But Joe Bosworth probably has something.