54 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Formula 4 has flickered into life several times, in differing guises.  Any memories of cars, stars and of how it should be assessed within the greater scheme of things?

 

I freely confess that beyond Johnny Walker Racing in the '60s and 750MC racing in the '70s it's more or less a complete mystery to me.

 

DCN

[Tim Murray]

There are some existing threads on Formula 4 which may be of interest:

Formula 4?

Formula 4

Vixen VB4?

Johnny Walker JW4

[pete53]

I remember seeing the original incarnation of Formula 4 for the first time at Lydden Hill in 1966 - possibly the only time. My own memory was that it appeared a bit tame and slow compared to the other racing categories of the time. Didn't bike racer Derek Minter compete in F4 for a while? Also Nick Brittain and one or two other drivers more associated with competing in other types of racing. Very much a class of racing designed for the competitor rather than any audience appeal. Obviously some of us remember it but not with any great degree of sentiment ( at least not me).

[Dipster]

I vaguely remember F4.

 

I seem to recall seeing a couple of races in the 60`s. In particular a small dark blue car with a Kamm tail type of engine cover. Absolutely no idea who the driver or entrant were or even where T saw F4.  This formula simply fizzled out, no? I cannot even dredge up distant memories of engine details. Can anybody? 

 

But then there have been quite a few attempts at new formulae over the years.

Edited by Dipster, 06 November 2015 - 17:32.

[Bloggsworth]

I used to help a F4 Vixen owner somewhere over Iver Way, I used to drive out from central London each evening on promise of a drive that never materialised. It always struck me how elegant and well constructed were Vixens - And if no-one knew, Hillman Imp engines.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 06 November 2015 - 13:55.

[Doug Nye]

That's the problem.  I only have the most misty memories of the things...

 

DCN

[Allen Brown]

This is from a yet-to-published F4 section on OldRacingCars.com:

 

Formula 4 was invented in 1966 as a low-cost racing category using simple single-seater cars and 250cc motorcycle engines. After that initial season, the category was opened up to 675cc bike engines and 875cc car engines in 1967, and continued through the next four seasons in that form. By 1970, Vixens with 875cc Hillman Imp engines dominated the category. The 750 Motor Club took over the running of the series in 1970, and for 1971 introduced a new Class "B" for cars with Group 1 or Group 2 engines up 1000cc with twin carburettors. This had the effect of allowing the Cosworth MAE engine, redundant from Formula 3 now that F3 had been increased to 1600cc. For 1977 a 1300cc Ford option was introduced, restricted to ensure it was competitive with the 1000cc Imp engine and ex-F3 MAE engine.

[Doug Nye]

Good Lord.  All of this apart from the original 250cc joke completely passed me by... Thank you all.

 

DCN

[BRG]

Is it only now that Formula 4 is actually an official FIA formula?  AFAIK all those previous versions were locally brewed up?

[ErleMin]

Certainly under 750MC managment it was only a registered (RAC)MSA Championship, and although that organisation is the recognised FIA ASN I suppose it wasn't an official FIA formula any more (or less) that say 750 Formula.

[JAPMagna]

One of our first customers when we re-started manufacturing Magna wheels was a guy called Mark Wendon. Not only is he restoring a JW4, and bought another one, he managed to get all the original Johnny Walker factory drawings for the cars. He has a wonderful blog that tracks his rebuild and covers a lot of history.

You can find it by searching on "Smokey's JW4 Formula Four Rebuild Thread"

[Derwent Motorsport]

Ecurie Ecosse had 2 Ecosse Imp cars that usually raced at Ingiston but did the odd f4 race I think. Both still exist and do the odd historic race.

[John Saunders]

Under 750MC managment Formula 4 was a registered Championship.

 

I ran a Brabham BT15 with Mike Brett, with a 1000cc MAE & Holbay engines in 1976 & 77 and 1300cc cross flow in 78.  In 1976 we ran it with orignal Brabham bodywork, then we fitted March 733 

bodywork for 77 & 78.

 

This is the only one of the many cars we owned I can remember the chassis number of,  BT15  F3  33  66. I have traced most of the owners starting with Mike Knight (Winfild Racing School) in 66, Tony Dean in 67,

then it was used on the hills for a number of years, until we used it in F4 in 76.  In 1989 Martyn Smith won a HSSC in this car now back in orignal spec.

 

It is currently in the USA, now fitted with a twin cam engine and is for sale for $50,000 (it's on 1000cc F3 Historic Racing Associations web site).  I sold it at the end of1978 for £2250.

 

Other drivers from that time in F4 were   Iain Rowley & Alan Morgan who both post on TNF,   other names from that time... Ian Briggs, Mike Whatley, Alex Lowe, John Brown, (of John Brown Wheels)  Eddy Heasell,  Max Samuel Camps, Bob Davis ect.

Happy days 40 years ago next year. ...I need a beer.

Edited by John Saunders, 09 November 2015 - 12:58.

[D-Type]

875cc Formula 4 is listed as an approved formula in the 1970 RAC Blue book (the only one I have)

[Bloggsworth]

Not forgetting Mike Wilds and Ian Taylor who drove Bob Sparshott's Spartan, a miniture Lotus 49, and I do mean small. I spent many a claustrophobic hour, upside down in the monocoque, rivetting panels. As a 6' former prop-forward, it was more than a little tight in there.

[John Saunders]

The Bob Sparshott built Spartan was Iain Rowley's first single seater drive in 1978 in F4. There were a number of good home built car in F4 in the 70's Alan Morgan's Cirrus oo4,   Jim Ward's GEM,  and the first of Tony Mundy Jamun chassis was a F4 car.

 

Plus ex F3 chassis from Chevron, Brabham, GRD, Ensign, March, ect. 

[Mallory Dan]

It was a great series from the mid-70s to mid-80s I recall, John. I remember the first Deltas, IRF4s, in 1975-76. Fergus Tait was v quick in one, then later on John Brown and others. Lovely little cars, and much neater than some of the others, which to be untrained eyes, seemed a bit messy and untidy!

[Allen Brown]

Plus ex F3 chassis from Chevron, Brabham, GRD, Ensign, March, ect. 

 

Ex-F3 cars included Alexis Mk 12, Brabham BT15, BT18, BT21, BT28, BT38C, Chevron B9, B15, B15C, B20, Ensign LNF3/72, LNF3/73, GRD 373, 373, Lotus 41, 59, March 703, 713S, 713M, 733, Merlyn Mk 14A, and Tecno 69/F3 from 1971 to 1977.  I am yet to look further.

[John Saunders]

Yes that is a lot of cars, pity they were not all on the grid at the same time.

 

F4 was offten a support race at BARC F3 meetings in the late 70's, but in 1976 we had some small grids and the BARC said it would not run stand alone races for F4 the next season unless we had bigger grids.

We needed to get more drivers out racing, so Mike Wilder 750MC Director for F4 and Mike Brett the drivers rep decided to try an find a Championship sponsor. Someone told them about a company in Aylesbury 

called A.M.H.E.C. they went to see them and came out half an hour later with a cheque for £3000.00 to sponsor the championship...Plus a cheque for £5000.00 to sponsor there two Brabhams so  C P Hydraulics Racing Team was born. 

 

I would like to say, and they all lived happily ever after.   But life is't like that, give a group of mates £5000 and it will end badly.     None a of the money was spent on our car when we needed a new battery I was told to pay for it myself.

Most of the money was spent on an old coach transporter which is another strory.    

[Cirrus]

I've got a few pictures that might be of interest but won't have time to post them tonight - the Spartan, Cirrus (naturally) my old Chevron and maybe a few others.

[alansart]

Did someone say Cirrus 

 

F4 Cirrus by Alan Raine, on Flickr

[Alan Cox]

I never managed to snap a picture of the original incarnation of F4, but do remember seeing them race. However, here are some memories of them in 750MC days

Ian Briggs with his immaculate Delta - 1978

Iain Rowley in the Cirrus (EDIT: Delta) leads the versatile Bob Davis with the continually-developing Davis in 1987

Another incarnation of the Davis in 1978

 

As with some of the other formulae supported by the 750MC, it did afford scope for the ingenious engineer to craft a car to compete against production chassis, such as Bob Davis and his various Davises, and Graham Gant's WEV (always my favourite), which was built for F1300, but ran in F4 with Martin Walford and others (with cycle wings removed) as the rules were similar

Edited by Alan Cox, 11 November 2015 - 19:35.

[Cirrus]

Iain Rowley in the Cirrus leads the versatile Bob Davis with the continually-developing Davis in 1987

 

That's not the Cirrus - it's a Delta T79. The last picture shows Brian Turner in the BTC (another self-built car) chasing Bob Davis. The BTC was very nice and won the championship in 80 I think. I will get round to doing some scans but I'm a bit under the weather at the moment.

[Alan Cox]

That's not the Cirrus - it's a Delta T79. The last picture shows Brian Turner in the BTC (another self-built car) chasing Bob Davis. The BTC was very nice and won the championship in 80 I think. I will get round to doing some scans but I'm a bit under the weather at the moment.

Sorry, Alan, the entry list had it down as the Cirrus. Hope you are soon back on form and ready for the HSCC dinner!

[alansart]

More from Cadwell Park, 1985.

F4 Cirrus by Alan Raine, on Flickr

 

F4 WEV, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alan Raine, on Flickr

 

F4 March, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alan Raine, on Flickr

 

F4's, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alan Raine, on Flickr

 

F4's, Cadwell Park, 1985 by Alan Raine, on Flickr

[Mallory Dan]

With the legendary '79' Delta nose Alan! Wasn't the BTC based on a Hawke DL14. And what are the v modern looking cars nos. 8&9 above?

[bruceb]

Does anyone recall, or even better have an image, of an Imp engined March driven by Len Fletcher around  82/83

[Cirrus]

With the legendary '79' Delta nose Alan! Wasn't the BTC based on a Hawke DL14. And what are the v modern looking cars nos. 8&9 above?

 

The BTC had Hawke bodywork but a monocoque chassis, unlike the DL14. I'll ask Iain Rowley about Len Fletcher.

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Formula 4 might be breathing hard...in an iron lung, in fact...here in Canada but it's still alive and kicking!
 
Below, a pix I shot in late September, 2015, at the Celebration of Speed at Mosport.  It features the Xpit of Bob Long.  I'm not sure what the power plant is but most certainly, it is motor cycle in origin.

 

 

Some history...  I did my rookie season starting in Formula Vee way back in 1974 where FV's, FC's and F4's ran combined races.  And Bob Long was a veteran then in F4!!!  Here we are some 4+ decades later and he's still at it, burning up the track.  Back in the day, I recall setting lap times in my Kelly FV at around 1:50 as best around Mosport(now Canadian Tire Motorsport Park)with the F4's about 10 seconds a lap faster, iirc.  At the event noted above less than two months ago, Bob cut a 1:27 lap time!  Time does indeed improve the breed. 

 

Fellow TNF member, Bob Mackenzie, will doubtless be along shortly to confirm this data.  I sold my Kelly to him and he ran against Bob Long, too.

[RonPohl]

A quick google confirmed my recollection that the first le grand ( referred to as the Mk 1 or Cheetah) was a formula 4. 440 pounds and a 70 hp BMW V-2 in 1962 was a potent package. The class was recognized by the formula racing association and the Mk 1 won over-all the in the 1964 FRA final. The class was not recognized by SCCA. Some nice pictures of a MK 1 being run in CSRG vintage are on the Internet.

[john aston]

The spiritual successor to F4 (as envisaged orginally) is probably something like the Jedi - tiny, bike engined, realatively affordable  and very quick indeeed, Common sight at Speed events - rather less so on track but  the outright lap record at Cadwell is held  by a Jedi (having stood for decades to Mansilla in an F3 car at the penultimate F3 meeting held there in '82  ) .

[Allen Brown]

Are the FRA's Formula IV and the 750 MC's Formula 4 actually related?  I'm not sure they are?

[Doug Nye]

What do these things have in terms of horsepower and minimum weight?  This is all news to me...most interesting when one has not been paying attention (over many, many years).

 

DCN

[john aston]

A Jedi has about 180bhp - and it weighs about as much as a bag of sugar.

[2F-001]

John Corbyn's Jedis were, in large part, responsible for the resurgence of a modern 500cc class in UK hillclimbing (not forgetting Peter Voigt before that - who in the early 80s often seemed to compete alone in the 500cc group, whilst the historic 500 class was fairly healthy). And that opened eyes to the potential of bike engines in the larger-capacity classes too, where they are now commonplace. 

 

The circuit racers - such as the one holding the o/r record at Cadwell would have been a 1-litre, I think.

 

They are remarkable things: steel spaceframes and bike engines in not-outrageous spec, so their power:weight is not astronomical, but they go incredibly well - cost:performance ratio is very impressive. I believe the circuit racers weighed-in a little over 700lbs.

 

Of course, there are no weight limits in UK hillclimbs, where the power to weight ratios for composite chassis bike-engined cars can be truly amazing.

Edited by 2F-001, 17 November 2015 - 13:23.

[RonPohl]

Are the FRA's Formula IV and the 750 MC's Formula 4 actually related? I'm not sure they are?

[RonPohl]

I have no knowledge of the origins of F4 in the USA- I had assumed that it was an out growth of the 500cc motorcycle engine Formula 3 of the 50's. When formula 4 failed to take of on the west coast ( FV was just starting up) the concept moved to SCCA H-modified which was 750cc and, I believe, no minimum weight. California was crawling with aero space engineers and fabricators ( like Red Le Grand) and I recall seeing some very nice home built H-mod sports cars in SCCA racing by the mid 60's

[StanN]

I was just reading a book about the history of the Villiers engine and it has a reference to early F4. It says the formula started in Italy in 1965 and was introduced to the UK in 1966. The engines were all 250cc motorcycle engines and the approved engines included Bultaco, Ducati Mk3, Villiers Starmaker, Montesa Impala and the rotary valve Merlin. At the 1966 Racing Car Show a David Peers designed JW4 was displayed fitted with a Starmaker engine. The car is reported to weigh in at 290 lb and to be capable of 106 mph. Derek Minter, who was racing the factory Starmaker engined Cotton Telstar bike between 1963 to the end of 1966, with considerable success, took an interest in F4 and drove a JW4 to four wins in the first 5 meetings of the 1966 season.

[markw]

Sorry I've only just spotted this thread.

 

The origins of Formula 4 date back to the USA as early as 1962 and in 1963 efforts were made but failed to introduce it into the UK.  It wasn't until 1965 that Johnny Walker came across it whist on a Business trip to the USA and begun the work necessary to bring it to the UK.

 

Across Europe F4 was run as national formulae so there was some variation in regulations and engine capacities allowed but in Britain the RAC together with the F4 assoication headed by Johnny Walker settled on a 250cc engine capacity and maximum of 2-cylinders. Various demonstration and PR events were carried out in 1965/6 to promote F4, however the first offical race for the 250cc class took place at Brands Hatch on 15th May 1966

 

the 1967 season saw two additonal classes added for 650cc motorcycle engines and 875cc car engines, however the 650cc class was subsequently increased to 675cc in the April to allow the 650cc BSA engine which was actually 654cc and overbored 670cc triumph engines. in 1968 only the 675cc and 875cc classes were run.

 

In the UK the major manufacturers to compete were Johnny Walker JW4, Vixen, Briham, Tecno and Evad. Johnny Walker adopted a business policy of selling any JW4 part to rival Manufacturers for their own cars and the Evad, Briham and Vixen all used the JW4 steering rack and magnesium front and rear suspension uprights.

 

The demise of Formula 4 begun towards the end of 1968 when a failed business venture with SAAB and a lack of financial sucess put Johnny WAlker into recievership.  the 675cc class was also discountinued at the end of that year amid claims that race organisers were discriminating against motorcycle engined cars.  The 875cc class continued for the following year but were later picked up and run by the 750MC.

 

As Roger mentioned above there is more history of F4 and the story of my own JW4 on my build thread http://www.jw4.co.uk and for my sins I am now the custodian for Johnny Walker's manufacturing drawings for the JW4, the remaining tooling and a good chunk of their history. 

 

Mark Wendon

[bradbury west]

But if you are talking about John Walker's original  Formula 4 plan for 250cc single seaters, be sure to remember that we had already had the 250cc single seater series in the late 1950s. I cannot recall just now what the series was titled, but there are a couple of programmes here somewhere, and ISTR that the Trio club were also involved.

Roger Lund

 

edit. It was organised by the 250MRC, quite logically

Edited by bradbury west, 02 December 2015 - 08:25.

[Cirrus]

Thanks to Ensign14 alerting us to the Pathé News YouTube channel, I've come across this...

 

Edited by Cirrus, 26 December 2015 - 17:27.

[Mistron]

One of our first customers when we re-started manufacturing Magna wheels was a guy called Mark Wendon. Not only is he restoring a JW4, and bought another one, he managed to get all the original Johnny Walker factory drawings for the cars. He has a wonderful blog that tracks his rebuild and covers a lot of history.

You can find it by searching on "Smokey's JW4 Formula Four Rebuild Thread"

I think my pal Sam bought one of them off him and is slowly deciding where to start.

 

Al

[arttidesco]

Looking for something else just now I found a photo of Bruce Coates Bond driving a Formula 4 Ensign in 1975 by Alan Cox on this link.

[markw]

I think my pal Sam bought one of them off him and is slowly deciding where to start.

Al

Yes, It was me who sold the 1968 JW4 Mk3 Imp prototype to Sam Barker last year. I'd have loved to keep the chassis myself to restore as that car had a very interesting and well documented history as the development car for Johnny Walker, but already having two Mk2's I didn't have the space for a third car. I also believe it to be the only one of the three car engined JW4 chassis that remains in existence.

Edited by markw, 26 December 2015 - 21:40.

[arttidesco]

I believe the Jedi's were raced in a series called Monoposto of which Arty Cameron, driving a Mk4, was champion in 2010, they now race in a series called Formula Jedi.

 

 

Having run out of money Arty entered his Dad's 1 liter Yamaha Mk4 in a round of the THE SIMON LEWIS TRANSPORT BOOKS FREE SINGLE-SEATER SERIES at Castle Combe in 2011, unfortunately he was adjudged to have jumped the start, before blowing his engine while entertainingly leading the Formula 3 cars of Stuart Wilkinson and Jim Blockley as seen above.

[delta]

Some great photos on here I have not seen so thanks for posting them. I had dinner last night with Alan Morgon and Mallory Dan,In fact I am still full up. They told me F4 was being discussed on here. Think it was around 1977 I had finnished P3 in class at Brands in a Modsports race in my GT6 which we built, this car was horrible the rear suspension for this race was strapped to my seat through the floor,thats another story. Anyway I decided to advertise the car in Autosport on that result and I was going Formula Ford racing and then on to be world champion.I ended up swopping the GT6 for the F4 Sparton which was the best thing I ever did in Motorsport.Never did get into F1 but had a lot more fun staying in F4 through too the 80's and meeting my good friend Alan Morgon and his dad Bill who helped me enormously back in those happy days..

[RAP]

The Formula One Register has just published a Record Book on Formula 4 1966-76 £40

https://formulaonere...ula-4-1966-1976

 

As usual it covers every race with entry, grid, results. There are no photos.

[markw]

The Formula One Register has just published a Record Book on Formula 4 1966-76 £40
https://formulaonere...ula-4-1966-1976

As usual it covers every race with entry, grid, results. There are no photos.

Thanks Richard, I’m grateful for the heads up. I’ve ordered my copy and hopefully this will help to fill a few gaps in my history.

[Rupertlt1]

I conducted some correspondence with Mark Wendon in 2017:

 

"Tony Bayley's JW4 was built specifically for hill climbs.  The chassis was a specifically strengthened version of the JW4 Mk3 and ex-works aluminium panelled to increase torsional stiffness. The car was marketed by the factory with the minimal bodywork you see in the pictures and the chassis was designed for engines of up to 95bhp. This was chassis 7024D which made it a 1967 build and was one of two cars fitted with a 1-litre Vincent Lightning Engine."

 

There is more ref Canada etc - I'll get to it.

 

RGDS RLT

[jeffbee]

I recall something in Autosport from the dim and distant past that the one of the F4 constructors, Vixen, were designing their own multi cylinder engine.  I never read anything else about it assume it was too complicated and was quietly dropped.  Anyone else know anything about it?