3993 replies to this topic

[Quickshifter]

Quickshifter, thanks for your positive spirit, but I'm afraid you're way too optimistical (see my comments in red):

 

 

I'm really disappointed about McLaren performance today. As someone pointed out in a previous post, both cars finished nearly 15 secs off the 10th place.

 

Well, the McLaren-Honda project is well into his second year (or third year since the partnership was signed) and still unable to make to Q3 or finish in the points on merit. Surely not what McLaren, Honda, Alonso or Button expected two years ago...

 

The progress has not been on expected levels not because of what happened since the end of last season but because of what transpired through the season last year. They barely could run the car in the first half of the season in anger and as a result they could not develop the car. Honda  have sorted out the reliability and deployment this season but by their own admission have not made big gains on the ICE power output  which is where there target is going to be for the remainder of this season. I definitely understand where you are coming from as far performance of the package as a whole is concerned but you cannot deny there has been progress made since the end of last season to where they are now.

 

You may disagree but the car has good one lap pace but the tire wear, fuel consumption and lack of top end oomph from the power unit are their three major issues right now. all three issues are inter connected in a way where more power would mean running more downforce to reduce tire wear also the combustion upgrades are also going to help in fuel consumption as well. Mclaren also have to get their setup more optimized inorder to make sure the car does not chew up tires as quickly as it does currently. 

Edited by Quickshifter, 17 April 2016 - 09:40.

[Kev00]

Think this showed that whatever the strategy was it wouldn't have played out much better. Thought Fernando's pace on the softs was pretty good though to think most of the guys behind were on fresher rubber. Maybe more running on softs would have helped but not really quick enough.

Edited by Kev00, 17 April 2016 - 09:45.

[IamFasterthanU]

The progress has not been on expected levels not because of what happened since the end of last season but because of what transpired through the season last year. They barely could run the car in the first half of the season in anger and as a result they could not develop the car. Honda  have sorted out the reliability and deployment this season but by their own admission have not made big gains on the ICE power output  which is where there target is going to be for the remainder of this season. I definitely understand where you are coming from as far performance of the package as a whole is concerned but you cannot deny there has been progress made since the end of last season to where they are now.

 

You may disagree but the car has good one lap pace but the tire wear, fuel consumption and lack of top end oomph from the power unit are their three major issues right now. all three issues are inter connected in a way where more power would mean running more downforce to reduce tire wear also the combustion upgrades are also going to help in fuel consumption as well. Mclaren also have to get their setup more optimized inorder to make sure the car does not chew up tires as quickly as it does currently. 

 

Don't think deployment has been completely sorted. Looking at the poor stints for both the drivers, it looks like a massive amount of fuel saving has to be done which cannot be put down to poor ICE efficiency alone. 

 

The straight line speed deficit in some laps was again too much in race mode as compared to qualifying. Either they are running ICE very conservatively in race as compared to other manufacturers or deployment is only marginally better (leading to more fuel consumption and thus them having to run lean mixture or lift and coast). Even though the sample size is very small but from what I've seen today it looks like everything else is same as last year with a slightly better ERS.

[Quickshifter]

Alonso has said they simply did not have the pace to deliver the points. According to him they need half a second to achieve the objective.

Edited by Quickshifter, 17 April 2016 - 10:05.

[Quickshifter]

Team Reaction

 

http://www.mclaren.c...ix-race-report/

[krumpli12]

http://www.autosport...ed-not-strategy

 

"It was not easy, we didn't have the pace to deliver a good result and be in the points," Alonso said.

"We chose to be on a two-stop strategy against the three-stopper and tried to have the benefit of that but it didn't work as planned.

"Also the safety car didn't come at the right time for us but after that we didn't have the pace either."

 

Alonso, who described the long medium stint as "quite painful at times" said the question marks over the Shanghai result showed how important it was for McLaren to get into Q3 and follow the leaders' tactics.

"To be in the points you need to follow the leading pack otherwise you are out of sync with them and you have traffic in the race which kills your strategy," he said. 

"We need to find that half-second that can put us in front."

Edited by krumpli12, 17 April 2016 - 10:17.

[alpes]

Quali pace seemed better than at Bahrain but race pace was worse. Rather curious.

[alpes]

I think it is track temperature that gives this result, China qualy track was cooler than Bahrain qualy and the other way around in race.
It will be important to get on top of tyre degradation problems but I am afraid will be hard, it took a 1000 km test for Mercedes a few years back to understand what was eating their tyres

[ferkan]

Its interesting that in track with least amount of time on throttle in first half of races Mclaren is most dissapointing.

Look at RB, they were fast in Melbourne and Bahrain, but no where this fast because first two sectors are mostly aero related.

One lap pace is red herring because they are nowhere on one lap pace as well.

[WitnessX]

Team Reaction

 

http://www.mclaren.c...ix-race-report/

.

Boullier:

..Equally, we’re encouraged by the power unit developments they have in the pipeline, and as a result we’re confident that our overall performance will continue to improve apace...

 

Has anybody else noticed that Hasegawa never says anything about the PU in these reports?

[chhatra]

.
Boullier:
..Equally, we’re encouraged by the power unit developments they have in the pipeline, and as a result we’re confident that our overall performance will continue to improve apace...

Has anybody else noticed that Hasegawa never says anything about the PU in these reports?

He has learned not to promise anything after Arai led us all dreaming of podiums last year.

It may be painful but Hasegawa has been blunt right from the start, including g telling us that even top 10 would be difficult.

[Lights]

"Fernando had efficiently mined the most out of a two-stop approach while Jenson had pugnaciously realised the maximum available out of his necessarily more dynamic three-stopper."

 

That's Ron, you would think. But no, it's Eric.

[10e10]

It's really a shame the current pace of McLaren-Honda. I was one of the fans that had been asking for a Honda comeback for a long time (you can check my posting history), but right now I wish the car had a Mercedes or a Ferrari as its PU. Yes, to win you may need a factory support, but maybe Honda should have been preparing its entrance in F1 in secret and for longer. I'm not saying that it's all Honda's fault, it isn't, but they are one big slice of the pie and progress is being too slow. 

[Marklar]

WTF!?

 

Jenson had pugnaciously realised the maximum available out of his necessarily more dynamic three-stopper

[CPR]

.

Boullier:

..Equally, we’re encouraged by the power unit developments they have in the pipeline, and as a result we’re confident that our overall performance will continue to improve apace...

 

Has anybody else noticed that Hasegawa never says anything about the PU in these reports?

 

I've noticed that as well.

 

Unfortunately, Muramasa seems to be not so active lately (busy I guess?). Hopefully we can find out later what Hasegawa has been telling the Japanese media.

[tkulla]

The big question to me is whether Pirelli is going to require such high tyre pressures at every race or whether it was only required for this track on safety grounds. I'm hoping the latter since McLaren simply couldn't get them to last under these conditions.

[pacificquay]

Encouraging race today, I felt. When you look at it, McLaren are now, on race pace, only a few tenths of a lap away from being ahead of Williams and clearly ahead of Force India. A huge step up from last year.

[blacky]

Next station will be interesting tyre-wise.

 

For the first time of the year they will not go one stage softer, furthermore Russia is not very challenging for the tyres:

 

Melbourne --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)

Bahrain --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)

China --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)

 

Russia --> SS and S 2015 (with M 2016)

 

A clear 1 stopper last year, ALO drove a stint of 40 laps with SS (53 laps overall).

 

They can leave the medium in Italy.

 

 

 

order sould be sth. like: 8/9 sets SS, 4/5 sets S.

Edited by blacky, 17 April 2016 - 13:23.

[Stannis]

"I think I was running well into the top ten, I think we were seventh, something like that, battling out there overtaking people and them overtaking us, it was good."

 

A quote from Button after the Chinese GP. Looks like a carbon copy of Bahrain.

 

I really don't understand this from such a veteran driver and also from such a veteran team.

 

In Bahrain they followed him in his statement that a 7th was possible. Even Kravitz couldn't believe then they were actually thinking like that.

 

To me it is clear that the McLaren just isn't in a position to get a top 10 on merit.

 

This looks to me only possible when there are some retirements in front.

 

The thing that is astonishing to me though, is that a driver like Button doesn't seem to get this.

 

He still thinks he can keep the position he is in just after the start.

 

Today it became clear that the longer the race goes, the more the Mclaren falls back.

[chhatra]

Next station will be interesting tyre-wise.

For the first time of the year they will not go one stage softer, furthermore Russia is not very challenging for the tyres:

Melbourne --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)
Bahrain --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)
China --> S and M 2015 (with SS 2016)

Russia --> SS and S 2015 (with M 2016)

A clear 1 stopper last year, ALO drove a stint of 40 laps with SS (53 laps overall).

They can leave the medium in Italy.



order sould be sth. like: 8/9 sets SS, 4/5 sets S.

Different tire pressures, different car, different time of year.

[blacky]

When I compare the cars who only used soft/medium today with the tyre-strategies last year in China, there was hardly a difference. It's only the add of the SS in such races which makes the action. This race should be a lot less complicated in terms of tyre-strategy, but it will be painful in terms of fuel consumption...

[chhatra]

Yes but this year we have a car with more power and the ability to destroy it's tires faster than anything I've seen recently.

There's also a new suspension philosophy too.

IIRC in 05 they had a good car but once the suspension was sorted in Imola it became a rocket.

They definitely need something huge to change this year, I don't think incremental upgrades will be enough.

Once again my personal swing o meter is low, it will no doubt be back up before the next race.

[ERICTOPF1]

Well, progress is there no one can deny that. The amount of it is debatable.

 

Both pure progress and also progress compared to others.

 

Qualifying is much better also. Q2 is in the bag this year and we will be in Q3 sooner than later.

 

Honda has confirmed that right now power is more or less same as last year its just the deployment is much better. So 100% sure there is more to come.

 

These are facts.

 

My feeling? It's not as bad as last year and will only get better.

 

At least all those HAAS lovers are silent for two weeks at least.

[AlexS]

Encouraging race today, I felt. When you look at it, McLaren are now, on race pace, only a few tenths of a lap away from being ahead of Williams and clearly ahead of Force India. A huge step up from last year.

 

 

 

11  Sergio Perez  Force India
12  Fernando Alonso  Mclaren

[Prelude]

Surprisingly poor race pace. Tires didn't seem to last very well at all.

 

On the positive side, both cars got to the end and we didn't get lapped.

Not really surprising. I was fearing exactly this. After all, their longer runs on friday were absolutely horrible, the drop off was much worse than the others but since JB said they were not as bad as FPs suggested I was hopping they had the PU turned down more than the others.

We need a good journalist to ask the right questions to try to understand what they're lacking. The PU can't be responsible for such a large deficit in pace and drop off. They drop like a stone. I saw a TR with a 2015 Ferrari (which is said to be more powerful than this years Renault) with DRS struggling to pass the Mclaren on the biggest straight so I think today shows us the chassis is not as good as initially thought. Yeah, maybe the balance is no good after all (except on empty tank) but I think they are lacking a lot of downforce and this is significant but nobody from the team is talking about this except Button.

As I and others already said, look at RedBull vs Renault to see what a good chassis can do.

[BillBald]

A puzzling race.

 

They actually looked pretty good in the first part of the race, but just before half-distance they started to drop back very quickly.

 

Wrong tyre choice and strategy? Or were they using too much fuel earlier on, creating a false impression?

[mclarensmps]

I think, at the moment, this is as high as the cars will finish, I won't lie, I was hoping that the cars were fast enough for points. but there's still work to be done on the chassis and PU to make that happen. 

Hopefully once there's more power available, there will also be more downforce available as well. That may help with the absolutely useless tire deg, or maybe it won't.

In any case, I've got to say, I was disappointed by the race pace, but it was fun to watch the battles. Overall, aside from Rosberg running away with it, it was a great race to watch. 

[damager21]

We definitely need 0.5 sec more to stay ahead of Torro Rosso and Force India, possibly Williams as well. In race trim, Williams don't look great. 

 

So its Mercedes 0.5 sec ahead of Ferrari and 0.8 sec ahead of Red Bull. Then there seems to be a big gap about 1.5 secs to Mercedes where Williams, Torro Rosso, McLaren, Force India and Haas are within 0.5 sec of each other.

 

Next race in Russia we will again score 0 points but Spain could be turn around of the season for us. Expecting a new aero package and hopefully engine upgrade from improvements in pretext of reliability or use of tokens.

[MirNyet]

Not really surprising. I was fearing exactly this. After all, their longer runs on friday were absolutely horrible, the drop off was much worse than the others but since JB said they were not as bad as FPs suggested I was hopping they had the PU turned down more than the others.

We need a good journalist to ask the right questions to try to understand what they're lacking. The PU can't be responsible for such a large deficit in pace and drop off. They drop like a stone. I saw a TR with a 2015 Ferrari (which is said to be more powerful than this years Renault) with DRS struggling to pass the Mclaren on the biggest straight so I think today shows us the chassis is not as good as initially thought. Yeah, maybe the balance is no good after all (except on empty tank) but I think they are lacking a lot of downforce and this is significant but nobody from the team is talking about this except Button.

As I and others already said, look at RedBull vs Renault to see what a good chassis can do.

 

Too much of the race spent on shot tires. The three stoppers just drove past them on fresher rubber. Also, the straight line speed is being achieved at the expense of trimming wing off the car which in turn hurts the car through the corners. Until the Honda PU delivers more power from the ICE this is going to continue to happen.

[Aeonax]

It was indeed a fun race to watch, but the fact that no car retired was to me a very important gauging  point to see our true position on merit ! So lets not kid oursleves anymore and accept reality as it is now.

As many have stated, the car has obvious tyre deg management issues. Hopefully, and most likely, this is due to the new suspension philosophy and maybe some PU or power delivery (Driveability). Why? Because

1.  We had many instances during the race where Mclaren drivers were doing pretty darn good at the long straight battles against Merc and Ferrari PUs teams (Williams/TR and FI come to mind). In some of those cases, while sporting old mediums...

2. Theres this team called Red Bull Racing that, with a PU said to be pretty much "on par" with Honda, was able to demonstrate what can be achieved with a very good chasis, showing truly competitive one lap pace as well as race pace with superb tyre management.


So yes, Mclaren-Honda has improved a lot, and we can only hope that things will get better in the future. Exactly when? Personally, I´d wait until the first batch of tokens are tested and race ready.

 

Taking today positives, its good both cars finished the weekend reliably and hoping this race data helps them further improve for the upcoming race. But until then, our team is 7th in the pecking order at most.

/rant off and off to drink and forget

Edited by Aeonax, 17 April 2016 - 15:42.

[LEO10]

They could have done any strategy they wanted, the result would have been the same, the pace was ****. Checking the onboards, the topspeed does seem decent, which would suggest lower downforce than others. Also explains the tyre wear. No, this car is a piece of **** at the moment. Anxious to see a Honda update soon, but unlike Renault who have clearly stated that a big update is coming soon, there has been no news about this whatsoever from Honda. Boullier said something in the team report today but that guy is so full of **** he can't be taken seriously. ''a spirited circumnavigation of the Shanghai International Circuit '' go **** a duck

Edited by LEO10, 17 April 2016 - 15:56.

[Eruobodo]

They could have done any strategy they wanted, the result would have been the same, the pace was ****. Checking the onboards, the topspeed does seem decent, which would suggest lower downforce than others. Also explains the tyre wear. No, this car is a piece of **** at the moment. Anxious to see a Honda update soon, but unlike Renault who have clearly stated that a big update is coming soon, there has been no news about this whatsoever from Honda. Boullier said something in the team report today but that guy is so full of **** he can't be taken seriously. ''a spirited circumnavigation of the Shanghai International Circuit '' go **** a duck

LOL

[alpes]

Since introduction of hybrid engines this has been an engine formula, but this year it is also a tyre formula.
New Pirelli tyres this year are softer and there is more choice, so all teams that can use the softer compounds have a real advantage. This is creating more situations like last year Malaysian GP where Ferrari won because had better tyre management than Mercedes.
So this year tyres have become a differentiator and Red Bull is taking advantage to compensate for lacking power with softer tyres.
McLaren is caught building the new suspension with these new tyres and it accentuates their problems.
On the other hand they changed aereo philosophy so they had to change suspensions as well, we all know they were running very stiff previously.
I am bracing myself for more races like this one until I see sings of improved tyre management
All in all races this year keep me glued to the screen despite end results, which is much much better than last year

[HP]

The big question to me is whether Pirelli is going to require such high tyre pressures at every race or whether it was only required for this track on safety grounds. I'm hoping the latter since McLaren simply couldn't get them to last under these conditions.

In the end it's not Pirelli, it's that the chassis and engine isn't up to the task yet. Eating tires is after all a suspension/chassis issue. And since the engine isn't as powerful as others, we know its not Honda that delivers too much power.

[Kyo]

That was an ok result considering no retirements. McLaren and Honda should be able out develop STR, Willians, FI and Haas to finish the season with the clear 4th best car. 0.5s will already put them in contention. From there on there is a huge gap and I don't see them closing it.

 

Hoping for a better car and engine next season.

[Rhardrks]

Encouraging race today, I felt. When you look at it, McLaren are now, on race pace, only a few tenths of a lap away from being ahead of Williams and clearly ahead of Force India. A huge step up from last year.

 

Williams and Force India have dropped back from 2015, that is all. The Gap to Mercedes is  around .1 tenths larger than last year so far (with a so called fixed ers).

People are being deluded on here, as the season progresses the gap to Merc will get bigger, they are better at in season development and have more engine tokens than Honda left.

Their is no rule that Honda will get better, this partnership is a gamble but I think we can count out winning a single race until at least 2018 at the earliest.

[David Lightman]

Such a tragedy for a struggling sport to have Alonso and Button unable to compete meaningfully. 

[aray]

Such a tragedy for a struggling sport to have Alonso and Button unable to compete meaningfully. 

They are out of luck....i am sure Macca will come back to top some day,but by that time Button's(definitely) and Alonso's(most likely) career would be over...

[AlexS]

Such a tragedy for a struggling sport to have Alonso and Button unable to compete meaningfully. 

 That is no fault of the sport. But choices by both drivers and the team. Alonso could still be in Ferrari.

Edited by AlexS, 17 April 2016 - 16:57.

[chhatra]

Williams and Force India have dropped back from 2015, that is all. The Gap to Mercedes is around .1 tenths larger than last year so far (with a so called fixed ers).
People are being deluded on here, as the season progresses the gap to Merc will get bigger, they are better at in season development and have more engine tokens than Honda left.
Their is no rule that Honda will get better, this partnership is a gamble but I think we can count out winning a single race until at least 2018 at the earliest.

I get your point but why on earth do people keep saying Merc have more tokens.

Ferrari used 23, have 9 left.
Merc used 19, have 13 left.
Honda used 18, have 14 left.
Renault used 7, have 25 left.

[Petroltorque]

It's not about having more power and running more rear wing. Team's run optimum downforce with just enough rear wing to keep the front end balanced. Tyre Deg is killing this team. They clearly have enough one lap pace to get into Q3 even on an out and out power track but if the balance/ centre of pressure is shifting about they will be no where. It's not about fuel consumption either since in fuel saving they won't be putting as much energy through the drive shaft. One hopes they are not plagued with a tyre eating monster as that has no quick fix. It's not as though they can switch focus to 2017 early either since those rules have yet to be finalised.

[restless]

Horner said that RB had to decrease downforce because of S3.

So we have RB with Renault engine which is in same league as Honda (+-20hp), with reduced from what is considered optimal downforce, and they literally run circles around, managing perfectly their tyres

My IMHO - calculate time diff for a lap to RB - we see how much the car should be improved. 0.5 to 1s my guess.

There is no excuse for eating tyres - unless they simply don't know how to setup properly for this....

 

On the other side, in order to be on Ferrari-Mercedes level, the engine should get ~ 50 more hp and better fuel management.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Now all depend on development. I am kind of relieved to see almost where we are in a circuit that is power dependent and chassis dependent.

 

 

We have to consider that:

• Our chassis is in it's 2nd year of development and it is still immature compare to front runners that had more development time.

• Our powerunit, fuel and lubricant are even more immature compare to others that had almost 3 more years.

 

Call me optimistic if you want but we are in a respectable position. Interesting and exciting days and months ahead.

Edited by RYARLE, 17 April 2016 - 18:00.

[Disgrace]

We're just about at the post limit. New thread here.