91 replies to this topic

[Silverstone96]

Seems people are unhappy about many different catagoroes, is it just a bad patch or something more?

F1 - seemingly on a one way road of more artificial gimmicks on track with endless politics and bickering off it, perhaps to never have the mass appeal of the 80s/90s/00s again

Indycar - good racing product but still suffering from the civil war from 20 years ago, can it ever regain those glories?

WEC - seemingly in rude health although it's increasingly used as a protest vote against F1 when they can never realistically compete for the same mainstream audience

BTCC - different formula from years past meaning the glory days of the 90's super touring era may never be replicated but has a strong basis from which to thrive on its own merits now

DTM/V8 supercars - series' have real strength in depth but soon to embark on Reg revolution similar to F1 so will have to be careful not to repeat same mistakes

NASCAR - still strong core audience but championship format perhaps strayed too far from its real meaning

In summary I feel a lot of these catagoroes were stronger/better in the 90's but those times are probably gone

[Marklar]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing (or cars in general).

[V8 Fireworks]

In summary I feel a lot of these catagoroes were stronger/better in the 90's but those times are probably gone

 

Three things:

 

1 Continued results of global finanical crisis and ongoing downturn in global economy.

 

2 Eco-conciousness.  Burning up fossil fuels for nothing more than entertainment, be it on an amateur trackday or in professional motorsport, is blatantly wasteful.

 

3 Social media and internet both dilutes value of television motorsport advertising and replaces it with alternative mediums of advertising.

[PayasYouRace]

In discussion with some friends we determined that motor racing peaked in 1997. F1 was yet to adopt many gimmicks, grooved tyres and generally had stable rules. F3000 was yet to become a slave to the F1 schedule. FIA GT1 was in its supercar era. Super Touring was at its peak. Rallying was mega. Indycar may have split but nobody cared about IRL and CART was strong. NASCAR wasn't messing with chases and G-W-C things.

Well you get the idea. You didn't even mention WRC, which just shows how that has fallen from grace.

I think the sport is generally struggling on a global level to some extent, but it's more due to external factors, public interest, politics and economics rather than the quality of what's on offer. There's still great racing about, it's just not as "big".

I think it also links into the discussion we had recently about information overload, and the ability to share both praise and criticism instantly with the internet. It's harder to just switch on the tv, watch some racing and stay in a little happy bubble, like we all did a couple of decades ago.

[Muppetmad]

IndyCar is in fine form in terms of the racing, although the viewing audience is still low. Ditto with WEC. I'd say ditto with Formula E, but I know some will disagree.

 

In financial terms, motorsport is definitely still suffering. In terms of the quality of racing on display, it's definitely out there for those who wish to see it. But the economic climate is still unfavourable to motorsport, and it's hard to say when that will change.

 

Edit: WRC is not in good health. That much is clear. It's a real pity.

Edited by Muppetmad, 24 April 2016 - 09:58.

[chunder27]

I think top level motorsport has simply disappeared up its own behind.

 

Most of it is behind paywalls, most if it is "owned and run" by major manufacturers who tend to want their own thing and therefore the racing is often very orchestrated and tame. The drivers are strangled by PR wallers, there are loads of penalties

 

As a fan, what you have to do to maintain an interest is go and find other things to watch. SO many fans just stick at the top stuff and have a snobbish attitude about other things.

I was lucky, I did this from the start as F1, Endurance, circuit racing never held my interest, so I went out to find rallycross, (A sport that has recently turned into an awful image of what it once was) stage rallying, short oval racing. In these places you can STILL find fun, nice people, good racing, cheap entries and access to everything.

 

Even some of that has changed though, so you go further, I started watching things like hillclimbs, drag racing and getting involved in motocross and enduro. All great sports where you can get really involved, get close to the top riders.

 

I haven been at events where you are literally pushing and pulling the top riders through obstacles, you can't even get near top talent in most motorsport without it being orchestrated.

 

the saving grace in top level racing is Motogp, that is showing the way for every other motorsport as it really should have done for decades.

 

As fans it's up to you, take the time to reject the garbage you are being offered, don't pay the prices, don't pay the tv prices and go and find something you can enjoy.  It is totaly up to you as fans, as the people running the sport won't change unless you disappear!

 

As for WRC, it is not just the series it is domination by one man for years, replaced by anotrhe man. Not much more than that.

Edited by chunder27, 24 April 2016 - 10:07.

[noikeee]

Motorsports will never come back to what it used to be in the 80s/90s. The technology has improved too much, which compromises racing in many ways; the public is looking for ever more efficient/green forms of transportation which doesn't translate well to racing, and owning a car is not as much of an exciting concept anymore that makes people as interested in them; and the safety standards and demands have increased so much that the atmosphere can never be as thrilling (ie, dangerous) as it used to be.

 

It's going from front page news into becoming a niche. And you know what, being a niche is fine. We don't need to be in the company of another 50 billion fans to enjoy our racing. Provided the forms of motosport we're interested in, don't degenerate into desperate gameshows trying to cater for those disappearing casual fans (I'm looking at you, Bernie).

[Jimisgod]

The petrol/diesel engine is dead, long term. FE is the future but arrived about a decade too early. We'll all be driving Tesla-clones in the future.

 

F1 has the added issue that the politics finally came to roost and the series has been an increasingly large existential crisis from about 1994 onwards. It was monumentally fortunate that the only real opposition to F1 (Indycar) had an even more spectacular crisis.

 

As for the others...

 

V8SC: Local car manufacturing is dead so the companies the series relied on are pulling out.

 

Indycar: Will never compete with NASCAR again. The segment of the US public who used to watch has probably lost interest and now prefers simpler sports instead.

 

NASCAR: Too regional, regarded as a joke by most of the motoring world. The decline of Detroit and the US white working class spells an inevitable slow decline.

 

WEC: I agree, its a protest vote against F1. The long races are not conducive to the viewing public, it's a nice niche sport to complement the 24LM and not much more.

 

US sport in general is very collegiate. Football, hockey, basketball, even athletics; all have a highschool program to get into a college scholarship which then allows the youth to go pro. Motorsport lacks this typical ladder. It exists outside the norm, which is part of why it attracts the working class NASCAR viewer. However this also means that it lacks the immersive nature of these other sports. People grow up around school basketball and football teams, not NASCAR teams. That's why I think the fall of the US working class will doom NASCAR and not these other sports.

[ExFlagMan]

.

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the saving grace in top level racing is Motogp, that is showing the way for every other motorsport as it really should have done for decades.

.

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By being put behind a paywall.....

[pdac]

Three things:

 

1 Continued results of global finanical crisis and ongoing downturn in global economy.

 

2 Eco-conciousness.  Burning up fossil fuels for nothing more than entertainment, be it on an amateur trackday or in professional motorsport, is blatantly wasteful.

 

3 Social media and internet both dilutes value of television motorsport advertising and replaces it with alternative mediums of advertising.

 

I think motorsport is just reflecting a complete change in the world. The ongoing downturn in the global economy does not exist, in my  opinion. What people see as a downturn is actually a shift to a new state that will persist well into the long-term future. Same with motorsport.

[JHSingo]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing (or cars in general).

 

I don't agree with the last part. I think there are still a lot of young people who are interested in cars, but motorsport fails to grab them. I know of several friends who enjoy going to track days, are really interested in cars etc, but the moment you mention motorsport, they don't know much about it.

 

Why that is, I don't know. It may be that the cars are not interesting enough for them, the racing not exciting, or any other number of reasons.

I do think that in a way motorsport has become too technical. Some of the magic has been lost because the cars are so technically advanced that it takes away from the skill of the driver. I'll give you an example - a few nights ago I was going on a bit of a Group B rally binge on YouTube, thanks to Dirt Rally. Now those cars were hugely spectacular. They were ridiculously quick, looked and sounded spectacular, and were obviously hugely challenging to drive. While modern WRC cars may be faster, they don't have that "magic" any more.

Other issues, well, I think examples of poor management (CART) and failure to control costs (Super Touring) killed things that were good. Plus, the other issue is that drivers these days are more like PR robots than ever. Although that is something that is not just exclusive to motorsport, but sport in general I'd say. Athletes in any sport have become a lot more conscious of the media etc, and that as a result makes them come across as more boring.

I think also that F1's dominance as the de facto motorsport series in most places in the world has been a problem too. While loads of people in the world will almost certainly have heard and know what F1 is, even if they're not interested in it, it has meant that a lot of other series kind of get forgotten about. I think in many cases it is just a lack of awareness that types of motorsport beyond F1 do exist. It always annoys me when someone says they're a "motorsport fan", when really what they mean is they're a fan f F1 and know of nothing else.

Edited by JHSingo, 24 April 2016 - 10:50.

[chunder27]

There are other reasons.

 

You cant get near anything, the tracks are often soulless, distant and dull.  You can't get in the pits, you can't get near the riders or drivers unless they allow it on special occasions or in orchestarted pit lane scrums. And then when they do talk they are literally "handled" by PR dorises who hang on their every word.

 

The cars are still spectacular, I challenge anyone to tell me a WRC car flat out through Welsh mud is not imporessive but for some reason it doesn't catch the imagination for long, only a few events.

 

A P1 hybrid is a staggering piece of equipment but does not keep most fans interested for more than one race. NASCAR is so false it makes you fall asleep until the last 20 laps. Even NHRA drag racing has been dumbed down to shorter tracks.

 

A lot of what ruins motorsport is domination. People like to see a fight, it ruins thigs like supercross, WRC, F1, DTM even bike racing at times.  But there is not much you can do about that.

What I do is search out other things, it's not hard, you just have to look, they are out there. Change your outlook.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It is also very expensive to get into so it's out of the working mans budget to get into...

Even Hamilton's dad had to work three jobs to fund his Motorsport! So without backing it's doomed to failure and how many kids fail to get notice like Hamilton did!

[ElJefe]

I agree that motorsport is in dire straits, but not necessarily because there is a lack of interest for fast cars in general. One only has to look at the popularity of Top Gear and the ascendancy of various other motoring outlets revolving around fast cars to see that if anything, fast cars continue to have the interest of the mainstream public. I would even argue that Top Gear has had a massive influence on how supercars are perceived, by bringing them to the mainstream public in an accessible and amusing way. This, coupled to a massive rise in inequality around the world (but that's a different matter) has had a profound industry on the luxurious motoring brands: Ferrari has more model ranges than ever before, McLaren decided it was profitable enough to produce its own streetcars, Lamborghini is selling its cars by the truckload... 

The real problem for motorsports in general is its accessibility: it has always been a sport that is less relatable for many people as opposed to football, baseball, cricket etc. But instead of focusing on keeping motorsport accessible and more relatable for the man in the street, nearly every form of motorsport has gone behind a paywall. 

[AlexLangheck]

I think also that F1's dominance as the de facto motorsport series in most places in the world has been a problem too. While loads of people in the world will almost certainly have heard and know what F1 is, even if they're not interested in it, it has meant that a lot of other series kind of get forgotten about. I think in many cases it is just a lack of awareness that types of motorsport beyond F1 do exist. It always annoys me when someone says they're a "motorsport fan", when really what they mean is they're a fan of F1 and know of nothing else.

I actually think this has only happened in the last 10-15 years. Other series seemed to get decent coverage and interest - but now it just seems to be F1 and nothing else. F1 has become a monster that has grown out of control; and the FiA have been unwilling/ unable to do anything about it.

How many series are in better health than they were 10-15 years ago? Not many. We've seen the introduction of the WEC and WorldRX....but both nowhere near mainstream.

Despite the issues that F1 has, it still trumps every other series in coverage and interest.

[Timantti]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing.

 

This.

 

Motor racing can be super exciting but it's becoming increasingly an old man's sport. Just by browsing this forum one can hear a lot jibber jabber how "everything was better in the 70's and 80's when ships were made of wood and men made of steel." This is a phenomenon called "old geezer rant" and it is not what you want to hear if you want something to stay relevant and cool. There is more entertainment available than ever, so of course market shares are getting cut. E-sports for example is growing at massive rates and will probably be a huge contender in 10 years.

 

The funny thing is that I feel cars in general are as popular as ever. Lots of my friends, 20 somethings who are soon to be graduating with degrees, are super into cars. However if you bring up F1 or motor racing they couldn't care less. I know this is a very small sampling size but Top Gear's ratings confirm there is still interest in cars.

Edited by Timantti, 24 April 2016 - 13:24.

[Reemann]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing (or cars in general).

I agree. I blame the fact that for younger generations, driving has become an expensive and borderline criminal activity. Someone getting caught doing 160km/h on the highway will make headlines for an entire day in my country. Driving has been demonized and will soon be banned.

 

Manufacturers share some blame for that. There aren't any affordable sports cars anymore (unless "affordable" is €35k for an impractical  200hp car that gets matched in a straight line by the average diesel MPV) and the few that do exist are FWD and based on cars that have been specifically engineered for young women (high seating position, short distance between pedals and steering wheel, narrow seats, gigantic clutch travels, etc.).

 

Most tracks have been build 30, 40 or even 50 years ago and there aren't many of them. Consequently, track days are expensive, over crowded and very time consuming. It also doesn't help that there are always the usual assholes with their M5's and 911's looking down on and mocking young people tracking their 110hp sporty hatchbacks. But anyway... This leads many young enthusiasts to have some fun on public roads. A couple of days ago, a few young people have been caught by the police doing doughnuts with their cars on a public road in Ireland. They have been fined for "dangerous driving", which is okay, but the thing that is definitely not okay, is that their names are now online forever and associated with "boy-racing behaviour", like they are some sort of dangerous criminals. **** that.

 

The only way I see to get new generations interested in motorsports is to embrace sim racing. Ever other alternative is either too expensive or risks endangering the lives of quadrillions of children (according to politicians who for some reason believe they have to pander to stay-at-home moms).

 

[/ ]

[SimeonSasparella]

I think F1's dominance in the media is a big part of the problem.

If you grew up in the 70's you could fall in love with motorsports because of F1, Rally, Touring Cars, Prototypes... etc.

 

Now, if F1 doesn't catch your interest, it's not very likely that you will encounter any other form of racing, especially at an early age, the age where most passions develop, and where most series seem to have zero interest in having some sort of presence.

Think of an european kid between the age of 7 and 15...what are the chances he will discover Le Mans, Indycars or whatever? (if the dad doesn't force feed him  )

 

BTW, I think I disagree on your choice of 1997 as the pinnacle year of motorsports...there was no World Sportscar Championship back then. Probably something around 1990   

Edited by SimeonSasparella, 24 April 2016 - 13:02.

[Disgrace]

Motorsports will never come back to what it used to be in the 80s/90s. The technology has improved too much, which compromises racing in many ways; the public is looking for ever more efficient/green forms of transportation which doesn't translate well to racing, and owning a car is not as much of an exciting concept anymore that makes people as interested in them; and the safety standards and demands have increased so much that the atmosphere can never be as thrilling (ie, dangerous) as it used to be.

 

It's going from front page news into becoming a niche. And you know what, being a niche is fine. We don't need to be in the company of another 50 billion fans to enjoy our racing. Provided the forms of motosport we're interested in, don't degenerate into desperate gameshows trying to cater for those disappearing casual fans (I'm looking at you, Bernie).

 

This shouldn't make sense given that we're talking about the Pinnacle of Motorsport™ but you're right. The aerodynamicists are too clever, requiring the rules to be tinkered or torn up with increasing frequency. The circuits are too safe, dulling the sensation of risk and having an adverse effect on driving standards. The engines are too efficient, leaving fans nostalgic for increased noise and therefore inefficiency. And on top of this, financiers have become too good at extracting profit, putting the teams on the brink and ironically risking long-term profitability. Somehow, these otherwise good things need to rolled back.

[DerFlugplatz]

I think its a bit premature too say that young peoples interest in cars has declined completly. Where I live i would say the interest in cars amongst young people is still high, certainly when I went to school what car you had was an important thing especially amongst us boys. Also atleast here from what I see when young people want to watch "motorsport" they watch things like Ken Block, drifting & streetrace videos and motorcross and I think thats understandable because what looks more exciting, Ken Block drifting through San Francisco or an F1 car driving through the tarmac sea of Abu Dhabi.

[carbonfibre]

Might be mostly because everything these days needs to be eco friendly, fuel saving, cost saving, close to 0% dangerous, calculated and as quiet as possible.

It's no coincidence it has been on a decline ever since the things above started to be more important then actually having a great time and doing it as fast as possible.

[SimeonSasparella]

Might be mostly because everything these days needs to be eco friendly, fuel saving, cost saving, close to 0% dangerous, calculated and as quiet as possible.

It's no coincidence it has been on a decline ever since the things above started to be more important then actually having a great time and doing it as fast as possible.

 

That's not what young people want as far as I know, that's just what's offered to them 

[Timantti]

Might be mostly because everything these days needs to be eco friendly, fuel saving, cost saving, close to 0% dangerous, calculated and as quiet as possible.

It's no coincidence it has been on a decline ever since the things above started to be more important then actually having a great time and doing it as fast as possible.

 

Yet people still die. I feel like safety is more important than the excitement stemming from having a chance to witness someone die live.

Edited by Timantti, 24 April 2016 - 13:21.

[Paco]

F1 has done nothing forgot the modern computerized internet world.. Piss poor online coverage of events. Next to zero social media except for the odd driver.. Zero fan interactiveness.. F1 acts as royalty, shielding itself from the very fans it needs..

Plus, the modern world is looking for greeness and shying away from the petrol-gas world. Again, f1 has done little for that regard.

It's struggling to stay relevant because of Bernie and Co. are stuck in a 1970-1980 world and not 2016...

There struggling cause they keep focusing on emerging markets that won't emerge for decades vs focusing on 1st world markets... There should be more North and South America races... Seriously, I scratch my head at some of venues hosting f1 today.. So many of these new tracks, watching empty stands is sad... Makes me want to tune out..

Race coverage needs to improve.. It hasn't evolved since the 80s. The 2hr coverage is very very weak.

It's not interest, but outdated coverage and internet approach that has failed...

Hollywood evolves, music evolves, fashion evolves... F1 coverage doesn't. They focus on poor countries, produce a poor visual product and create artificial gimmicks in racing and wonder why it's struggling...

[Silverstone96]

Apologies. I forgot to mention WRC...but that was definitely better in 1997! Todt can actually take some of the blame for that

I've watched a variety of motorsports for 25 years but there's less and less to enjoy now. More and more is behind paywalls.

I'm most disillusioned with F1 and the fact the races have a lot of action in but it's all meaningless as its so artificial but I agree there is always something good out there if you look for it

[Nonesuch]

I'm not sure it's just a period.

 

What little technical innovation there is is agreed to beforehand in convoluted and contrived regulations that not only sap the excitement from the development race, but also promote periods of domination by closing of areas in which to differentiate one car from the other. Spec-series might excite some, but spend an afternoon watching them on MotorsTV and you'll be lucky to see more than a couple hundred people on the grandstands.

 

As for a car loving culture among young people; in many European countries owning a car is a bit like volunteering to pay taxes twice. People who talk about their car seem more apt to mention the necessity and the high costs than the peculiar characteristics of the car or the excitement of driving it around. To many it's a mere utility, like the oven or the washing machine.

 

Then there's the alternatives. If you want to be entertained, there has never been more to choose from for less money. A century worth of excellent television and film, all the sports from around the world, from United States' baseball to Chinese athletics, New Zealand airboat races and Norwegian dog sleds tours. And let's not forget games! The last twenty years has brought gaming into - and as much as I dislike the phrase, it's hard to argue with the claim - people's living rooms. Why watch Rosberg save tyres and save fuel when you can race around in Forza Motorsports or Gran Turismo with some friends?

 

Finally, since I've now see every race (save for a few Grand Prix in Monaco) of the current driver line-up, I find it harder than ever to get excited about one of them. Indeed, I am often reminded of a comment a Dutch author once made when asked about his thoughts on the next UEFA Euro cup: "Awww, those cute little millionaires. Give them all a ball and let's be done with it."

 

their names are now online forever and associated with "boy-racing behaviour", like they are some sort of dangerous criminals. **** that.

 

They are dangerous. It's no coincidence that the largest age-group of men who are killed in car accidents is the 18-30 age bracket.

 

Worse: because the most common place for a fatal accident to occur is on local roads rather than highways, these clowns are putting cyclists and pedestrians at risk as well.

[BalanceUT]

Great topic, because too much of the angst I see on these boards is about the failings of F1 that seem to treat it as an outlier rather than part of a trend. I agree the trend is part of motorsport in general. Several factors were listed that were spot on: Eco-consciousness, global financial weakness, omnipresent media.

 

 

I disagree that driving is becoming a criminal activity or somehow strange. But, that may be my USA view where our over-reliance on the automobile for individual transportation is uniquely high. I just think back to the 1950s, 60s and so forth that drag racing was decried as a public horror, and now street drift driving is the same thing.

 

There is a lot of interest in cars, but not to make them necessarily raw power faster. People spend their money on making them 'cooler'. Lighting effects, sound effect, music systems, making the car low riders (probably out of style now, but it was the early version of the trend).

 

And, my impression is that compared to the 50s through 70s, kids don't actually do nearly as much of their own work to cause these modifications to happen. They pay specialty shops to mod their cars. Obviously, there are folks who learn to be practical modding mechanics out there, they work in the shops! But, instead of it being something I did to my newly purchased tiny sedan to make it 'cool', I take it to the modders up the street and purchase a package from them, maybe take a job to pay for it on credit.

 

So, the everyday experience of practical engineering which creates fascination with how the pit lane and garage work is done by motorsporting teams is diminished. It's a black box, parts go in, cars come out. 

 

Top Gear is therefore explained because it is all about the product of the work, not the work to make the product. (I love Top Gear, Jeremy Clarkson's boorishness notwithstanding.) 

 

We decry the reliability of racing cars supposedly built to the edge of technology, therefore they should sometimes just fail. Yet, arguably the most important trend in the modern everyday automobile is its reliability compared to generations previous. We can count on our cars to just work today like we never could in the past. 

 

We live in an age of never repairing, never building, only buying and tossing when the newer better comes out or when it breaks. And, I think that is reflected in what people find interesting. 

 

By the way, I saw a comment that NHRA drag racing is suffering due to shortening tracks... hasn't it always been 1/4 mile with only very rare exceptions? 

[Afterburner]

Part of me thinks this is a case of, "If hindsight is 20-20, why do so many people use rose-tinted glasses to view the past?"

There's an aura that's missing about F1 right now, and for me it's got to do with the aesthetics and the noise. There's no shortage of talent and the racing has actually been fairly decent this year.

I'm full-on in love with Indycar right now despite the ridiculous levels of ineptitude on display from its rulemakers.

IMSA could use a good old-fashioned P1 class with some V8/V10 prototypes. That series was cooler a few years ago.

I'd definitely watch MotoGP if the jerks at Dorna hadn't negotiated to put it in the 'European sports die-hard living in the US on a green card' channel package.

WEC feels a little sanitized but it's nothing a few classic circuits couldn't fix. (Six hours of Imola, I'm telling you...)

So yeah, there's a lot to like about what's on offer right now. Most of the tweaks that'd make me happy(er) have (mostly) nothing to do with costs but more about how the sports look and are presented. I'm fairly easy to please.

[Timantti]

I agree. I blame the fact that for younger generations, driving has become an expensive and borderline criminal activity. Someone getting caught doing 160km/h on the highway will make headlines for an entire day in my country. Driving has been demonized and will soon be banned.
 
This leads many young enthusiasts to have some fun on public roads. A couple of days ago, a few young people have been caught by the police doing doughnuts with their cars on a public road in Ireland. They have been fined for "dangerous driving", which is okay, but the thing that is definitely not okay, is that their names are now online forever and associated with "boy-racing behaviour", like they are some sort of dangerous criminals. **** that.
 
[/ ]

 
Driving around in a 1400kg death machine shouldn't be taken lightly. When you are not only responsible for your own life but others' as well, breaking laws meant to protect people SHOULD be criminalized. Even if it sucks the fun out of driving. Let's face it, if cars were invented today, we would never allow people to drive them freely.
 
I don't want to die or have my life ruined just because someone thought it was okay to have fun in public roads.

Edited by Buttoneer, 25 April 2016 - 10:06.

[PlatenGlass]

In discussion with some friends we determined that motor racing peaked in 1997. F1 was yet to adopt many gimmicks, grooved tyres and generally had stable rules. F3000 was yet to become a slave to the F1 schedule. FIA GT1 was in its supercar era. Super Touring was at its peak. Rallying was mega. Indycar may have split but nobody cared about IRL and CART was strong. NASCAR wasn't messing with chases and G-W-C things.

Well you get the idea. You didn't even mention WRC, which just shows how that has fallen from grace.

I think the sport is generally struggling on a global level to some extent, but it's more due to external factors, public interest, politics and economics rather than the quality of what's on offer. There's still great racing about, it's just not as "big".

I think it also links into the discussion we had recently about information overload, and the ability to share both praise and criticism instantly with the internet. It's harder to just switch on the tv, watch some racing and stay in a little happy bubble, like we all did a couple of decades ago.

I'm not sure what year I'd pick, but I'd probably say before 1997. F1 has had a skeleton number of teams since 1993 when they went from prequalifying to arbitrarily not allowing Michele Alboreto to qualify even though that meant only 25 cars on the grid. Then 1994 was the start of refuelling and the overtaking "ban" which the FIA couldn't be bothered to do anything about. Also from 1994 we had the Schumacher domination and the general view that the F1 field wasn't that strong until the emergence of the class of 2001. 1992 was a weak year for the sport with the Williams domination, so arguably 1991 was its last "full strength" year.

The World Sports Car championship finished in 1992, and what we have now is hardly a major world sport. Le Mans is just a relic of the past rather than a major world sporting event.

Other forms of motorsport arguably didn't peak quite so early. Indycar had the whole Mansell thing in 1993, before it split in 1996. Although arguably the Indy 500 had peaked decades before when F1 drivers used to take part.

BTCC was OK for most of the 90s. I certainly think it was starting to jump the shark in 2000 though.

WRC probably started to go downhill after 2003.

MotoGP I've never followed that closely. But in the UK it's now hidden away on ITV4 or something, so it's certainly disappearing from a UK point of view. I'm not sure when I'd say its peak was.

It would be hard to pick a single year, but I think 1997 is a bit late.

[Jackmancer]

Three things:

 

 

2 Eco-conciousness.  Burning up fossil fuels for nothing more than entertainment, be it on an amateur trackday or in professional motorsport, is blatantly wasteful.

 

 

I think motorsport can lead towards renewable transportation, with its competition combined with innovating technology. Like F1's hybrid engines or Formula E.

[YoungGun]

Driving around in a 1400kg death machine shouldn't be taken lightly. When you are not only responsible for your own life but others' as well, breaking laws meant to protect people SHOULD be criminalized. Even if it sucks the fun out of driving. Let's face it, if cars were invented today, we would never allow people to drive them freely.
 
I don't want to die or have my life ruined just because someone thought it was okay to have fun in public roads.

 
Car surfing while drunk is equally dangerous. Some kids have **** for brains. 

[KnucklesAgain]

This shouldn't make sense given that we're talking about the Pinnacle of Motorsport™ but you're right. The aerodynamicists are too clever, requiring the rules to be tinkered or torn up with increasing frequency. The circuits are too safe, dulling the sensation of risk and having an adverse effect on driving standards. The engines are too efficient, leaving fans nostalgic for increased noise and therefore inefficiency. And on top of this, financiers have become too good at extracting profit, putting the teams on the brink and ironically risking long-term profitability. Somehow, these otherwise good things need to rolled back.

 

Plus reliability. Once upon a time even after your driver had lapped everyone it was still edge-of-seat stuff to see if he would finish. Not anymore.

 

[PayasYouRace]

 

BTW, I think I disagree on your choice of 1997 as the pinnacle year of motorsports...there was no World Sportscar Championship back then. Probably something around 1990   

 

The FIA GT championship at the time was a world championship in all but name.

 

I'm not sure what year I'd pick, but I'd probably say before 1997.

 

[snip]

It would be hard to pick a single year, but I think 1997 is a bit late.

 

Obviously 1997 was just what my friends and I came up with, and is a product of our being of a certain age where that year works for us. Your mileage may vary. Imagine asking that question in TNF.

[BRG]

I think people need to get over the negativity and get with the programme.  GT racing of all sorts is thriving with huge grids.  Touring cars are doing well (BTCC grid of 31 cars last weekend - far more than in the supposedly golden Super 2000 era) except for the WTCC and even that is looking better this year.  Formula 3 Euro series has large grids.  Club racing in the UK at least is doing fine with large grids. 

 

Even the oft maligned WRC isn't nearly as defunct as chunder27 would try to have you believe (three different winners on the last three rounds, how's that for domination by one man? 

 

Just because F1 is being beaten to death by Bernie's greed doesn't mean that everything else is as bad.

[HistoryFan]

I think the problem is that motorsport turned to be more show. The first races were a little bit adventure and races were very special. Everyone has respect of what drivers and teams do, now it's more show, it looks more easy. No sport has changed that much than motorsport.

[Marklar]

I think the problem is that motorsport turned to be more show. The first races were a little bit adventure and races were very special. Everyone has respect of what drivers and teams do, now it's more show, it looks more easy. No sport has changed that much than motorsport.

I don't believe that the show element is causing a lack of respect on the drivers.

As crazy it sounds, but motor racing is probably too safe nowadays to be attractive (edit: I also mean that in terms of respecting the drivers). And the information overload is making it look like the drivers aren't doing anything special. Combined with the general society change it is no wonder that all forms of motor racing are struggling.

Edited by Marklar, 24 April 2016 - 18:19.

[pdac]

I don't believe that the show element is causing a lack of respect on the drivers.

As crazy it sounds, but motor racing is probably too safe nowadays to be attractive (edit: I also mean that in terms of respecting the drivers). And the information overload is making it look like the drivers aren't doing anything special. Combined with the general society change it is no wonder that all forms of motor racing are struggling.

 

I'd be more general and say it's more reliable, managed and predictable nowadays (which includes drivers waking away from huge accidents with very minor injuries). But maybe you mean 'safe' in that way (everything managed and thought through to the minutest detail in advance).

[yasushi888]

I think motorsport can lead towards renewable transportation, with its competition combined with innovating technology. Like F1's hybrid engines or Formula E.

I agree it could, but I really think motorsport should give up on being road and transport relevant. It lost being relevant a long time ago. The future of cars is driverless and electric. Which doesn't translate well to sport to watch.

Most other sports are not relevant and do not contribute to industries. If motorsport just concentrated on the sport side maybe more people would watch.

[Marklar]

I'd be more general and say it's more reliable, managed and predictable nowadays (which includes drivers waking away from huge accidents with very minor injuries). But maybe you mean 'safe' in that way (everything managed and thought through to the minutest detail in advance).

This is a point as well which makes racing boring and prevents the sport from being emotive

 

we have super computers which are predicting the perfect strategy -> no big and therefore tragic strategy blunders (well, Monaco 2015 was a nice exception as the software had a bug and the GPS is not accurate in Monaco)

we have damn reliable cars -> if you are on the way to an dominant victory then nothing will stop you

the tracks are not challenging anymore (no gravel traps) -> it's almost impossible to make a mistake which takes you out of the races (except of colliding with others of course)

 

This is an important point as well, yes. Though it doesnt explain the decline of all forms of motor racing.

Edited by Marklar, 24 April 2016 - 18:57.

[PayasYouRace]

Removed the OT about population numbers. It's fine talking about the way we view cars in society could be changing if its relevant to interest in motor racing. But please keep it somewhat on topic.

[messy]

It's having a lull. I don't think there are many series that will look back on this as any kind of golden era. The WEC is probably closest, but for all its a great series it's not quite got the emotional pull of a great Grand Prix or a classic RAC Rally even at its best. Le Mans excepted.

F1 - lacking the kind of emotive, human, box office pull its had in the past. Virtually completely. Still produces drama and some good races, but the heroes are watered down, the drama is more political and less tugging at the emotions, less to make a small kid dream.

WRC - like F1 still capable of being interesting but the cars are unexciting to look at and the events are watered down, no endurance, no sense of 'adventure' and no McRae-type folk heroes remaining.

Indycar - I don't think it's even a case of 'since the civil war' because CART at the turn of the millennium was amazing. It's another series that on the face of it looks like it's in good health but lacks a certain something at the moment.

BTCC - exciting, unpredictable, but a million miles from its late 90s heyday.

Either all this, or I'm getting old and remembering circa 1998 through massive rose tinted specs.

[Jackmancer]

I agree it could, but I really think motorsport should give up on being road and transport relevant. It lost being relevant a long time ago. The future of cars is driverless and electric. Which doesn't translate well to sport to watch.

Most other sports are not relevant and do not contribute to industries. If motorsport just concentrated on the sport side maybe more people would watch.

 

I doubt that manufacturers would want to pour millions into developing useless technology.

[loki]

 

This is an important point as well, yes. Though it doesnt explain the decline of all forms of motor racing.

All forms of motorsport aren't down.  In the US Supercross/motocross is growing.  Drifting, and GRC as well.  Off road in both short course and and desert endurance is growing in both amateur and pro classes.

[travbrad]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing (or cars in general).

 

I think TV in general is sort of 'out' for the younger generation too, not just motorsport.  They might watch a few shows, but there are just so many other forms of entertainment competing for their time/money now between social media, youtube/twitch, video games, plus all the "older" forms of entertainment.

 

There have been a bunch of studies that show young people are watching less and less TV every year, and they already watched a lot less TV than older people to begin with.  In the U.S. the average viewing age of broadcast (FTA) TV viewers is around 55, and the cable/satellite networks have similar demographics.  Motorsport might be suffering even more than TV as a whole but it's all part of a general trend away from TV viewing.

Edited by travbrad, 24 April 2016 - 21:10.

[PayasYouRace]

F1 is pretty much the only thing I watch on TV any more, and I'm nearer 30 than I'd like to accept. TV just isn't a thing any more.

[chunder27]

There might be different winners in WRC but are people interested?  I think not. As you seem to understand it is not a tv sport. It is a spectator sport live, it doesn't work on tv. That doesn't make it bad or weak, it just means most fans don't want to watch it anymore. It's great there are different winners, it's a good thing for the series, doesn't make me want to watch it though I'm afraid. ANd I am not alone. How on earth WRC breaks back into the prime time I have no idea, but different winners is not going to help much from where they are now!

 

A lot of this stuff is so much better when you are there. Even smaller club level stuff.

 

There is too much chasing tv, and not enough work done to make it interesting ON tv. If tv is the holy grail you have to make it good for tv!  I don't know how you do this though or I would clearly be a rich man in demand!

 

The person who can find what young folk want to watch motorsport wise is going to be a very sought after guy. Right now I think motorsport needs an Evel Knievel type, a Pastrana, a much faster version of Ken Block, F1 needs a Dale Earnhardt figure, someone we can hate.  Touring cars need an Anthony Reid or John Cleland or Steve Soper.

 

A series I watch banned a rather petulant driver for a year and I was discussing this with fellow fans last night at one of his first meetings back. I detest the man, but had to admit it's great having him back, it gives you something to look for, someone to cheer if they go in the fence, someone to boo, someone to bitch about when they do something stupid.

 

Every series needs a panto villain and a fan favourite, coz every now and then they clash, Marquez/Rossi last year, Utter gold and Dorna nearly messed it up!

Edited by chunder27, 24 April 2016 - 20:29.

[LuckyStrike1]

I do believe that motorsport is generally 'out'. There are stil of course the long-term fans, but I don't have the impression that many young people are interested in motor racing (or cars in general).

 

This. 

 

Motorsport is going out of fashion and will be a niche sport, only a selected few will really care about. 

[Atreiu]

Not if you like MotoGP.

[Atreiu]

OTOH, it would be great if motorsport went through such a crippling crisis that manufacturers and money leeches simply walked away to other sports, like football.