65 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

Be a bit boring if he did. Have you anything to add? Thought not...

[gruntguru]

Quote

 

Lee, do you ever run out stories for any situation?

No. He can compose them on the fly.

Edited by gruntguru, 29 December 2016 - 02:10.

[Fat Boy]

Lee Nicolle, on 19 Dec 2016 - 05:01, said:

I would know immediatly if the fronts were locked, you feel it through the steering wheel. And I would back off the pedal, modulate, which it seems this person did not. Driver error, possible caused by panic and or not knowing the car without all the nanny items.

 

Though possibly these cars are set up different so as to use the nanny items.

They do create confusion. A woman I know who drives hard everywhere crashed a loan car,, forgot it had no ABS. Split second to wake up and hit another car with the rears locked up. Her own car was in for a recall.

Terrible or good driver depending on your view but the type who can get caught out easily.

 

Your first statement may or may not be true. On a street car with iron brakes, friendly pads and no downforce, I'd probably agree. On a race car, well...not trying to start a fight here, you're wrong. Very good drivers lock brakes with no nanny items accidentally and unbeknownst to them.

 

When you're dealing with race tires which have high thresholds, finicky limit behavior, lightning switch pads/discs (possibly carbon), and who knows what else going on, it completely possible to just get it wrong when you're really pushing and lock a tire. Here's the fun part. In that situation, backing off the pedal a bit may very well not do anything. Depending on all the characteristics above, it might take _a lot_ of modulation to get that tire spinning again.

 

In closed cockpit cars all over the planet, people have their dashes set up with "lock-up" lights to tell them when (and which) a tire is locked. It's not because they suck and you're that good.

[imaginesix]

I remember once I couldn't tell that I had locked a tire until I could smell it. Might have had something to do with being not that good a driver.

[Fat Boy]

imaginesix, on 29 Dec 2016 - 04:33, said:

I remember once I couldn't tell that I had locked a tire until I could smell it. Might have had something to do with being not that good a driver.

 

That's not really all that uncommon. I've had locked tires and not known it until the thump-thump-thump, especially during a race. There's just too much going on sometimes. I'm not a even a reasonable racing driver, though, so take my experience with the appropriate dash of salt.

 

[Fat Boy]

Lee Nicolle, on 19 Dec 2016 - 05:01, said:

They do create confusion. A woman I know who drives hard everywhere crashed a loan car,, forgot it had no ABS. Split second to wake up and hit another car with the rears locked up. Her own car was in for a recall.

 

 

This just clicked in my head. For a person that calls out a lot of stories, this is some next-level "the-dog-ate-my-homework" bullshit. Not that there wasn't a crash. It was just someone not paying attention and getting caught out. The brake system had nothing to do with it.

[Charlieman]

Greg Locock, on 19 Dec 2016 - 07:16, said:

Switching from an ABS car to a non ABS one is extremely difficult. Different skillset.

I have never driven a car with ABS... Aren't they expensive cars? I used to drive a Saab 96 which just *stopped* and I was very conscious about drivers behind me.

 

I have always believed that learner drivers should learn in something like a Morris Minor. My driving lessons were in a safe Datsun/Nissan derivative of old Austins -- I wonder what an earlier generation learned in swing axle Triumph Heralds.

[Bloggsworth]

Charlieman, on 30 Dec 2016 - 21:24, said:

I wonder what an earlier generation learned in swing axle Triumph Heralds.

How to spin...

[Lee Nicolle]

Fat Boy, on 29 Dec 2016 - 00:42, said:

Your first statement may or may not be true. On a street car with iron brakes, friendly pads and no downforce, I'd probably agree. On a race car, well...not trying to start a fight here, you're wrong. Very good drivers lock brakes with no nanny items accidentally and unbeknownst to them.

 

When you're dealing with race tires which have high thresholds, finicky limit behavior, lightning switch pads/discs (possibly carbon), and who knows what else going on, it completely possible to just get it wrong when you're really pushing and lock a tire. Here's the fun part. In that situation, backing off the pedal a bit may very well not do anything. Depending on all the characteristics above, it might take _a lot_ of modulation to get that tire spinning again.

 

In closed cockpit cars all over the planet, people have their dashes set up with "lock-up" lights to tell them when (and which) a tire is locked. It's not because they suck and you're that good.

I raced Sports Sedans competitivly at National level for quite a while. Light powerfull cars with some aero, carbon pads and I could tell when and if I locked a brake. Not the ultimate in race cars by any means. But I seldom flat spotted tyres and my braking was better than most.

I was also around V8SC for quite a while and saw so much stupidity and monkey see monkey do at that level. Rotors that looked like bastard files, changing tyres every second lap when it was raining and even then they crashed hard.

They spend shitloads but are often not very smart. Yet alone commonsense.

[Lee Nicolle]

Fat Boy, on 29 Dec 2016 - 19:05, said:

This just clicked in my head. For a person that calls out a lot of stories, this is some next-level "the-dog-ate-my-homework" bullshit. Not that there wasn't a crash. It was just someone not paying attention and getting caught out. The brake system had nothing to do with it.

A chronic late braker who often chattered the ABS. I rode with her once, that was enough. Caught out by a loaner with no ABS, locked a wheel and crashed. End of story. bad driver maybe but it has happened far too often with far too many people including cops with ABS faults.

[saudoso]

What's the point here?

 

Blown condom leads to undesired pregnancy, let's ban condoms.

[Greg Locock]

One of the stranger observations from real life is that ABS, by itself, didn't really change the accident statistics much. The subsequent technologies have made a bit of a dent, but given the rapid adoption and evolution  of 4* and 5* crash standards there were a whole bunch of safety related features that came in during the same timeframe so its a bit hard to tell. None the less, this is a graph that shows that a whole bunch of people are doing the right sort of things, or a different bunch f people are doing less of the wrong sort of things

 

[desmo]

Legible version of the image above-

[Charlieman]

The decline in road deaths between 1939 and 1942 is startling. I presume a significant reduction in car driving and an increase in truck driving -- does anyone have a link to road mileage stats by vehicle category for that period?

 

And why didn't road deaths go up to 1939 rates after the war? New cars did not have significant new technology and US rationing fuel ceased in 1946. Age population factors?

[Fat Boy]

Lee Nicolle, on 31 Dec 2016 - 01:03, said:

A chronic late braker who often chattered the ABS. I rode with her once, that was enough. Caught out by a loaner with no ABS, locked a wheel and crashed. End of story. bad driver maybe but it has happened far too often with far too many people including cops with ABS faults.

 

If you're hitting the ABS that often on the street, you're going to end up getting it wrong.

[imaginesix]

Fat Boy, on 29 Dec 2016 - 19:00, said:

That's not really all that uncommon. I've had locked tires and not known it until the thump-thump-thump, especially during a race. There's just too much going on sometimes. I'm not a even a reasonable racing driver, though, so take my experience with the appropriate dash of salt.

 

Yeah, I never imagined that my brake-by-smell experience was unique, I'm old enough to know that I'm not likely to ever imagine or experience anything that a thousand others haven't already done before.

 

What I thought was interesting about the story is that despite honing and finely tuning my sense of touch, sight, and sound to detect exactly that scenario of a locked brake, it still escaped my attention. I only became aware of what was going on through the sense of smell, which I was paying absolutely no particular attention to at all. That has to be a pretty powerful indicator of incompetence by anyone's standard.