53 replies to this topic

[BRG]

In an old thread about the Indianapolis corner at Le Mans, Arjan de Roos posted this: 

 

What I do know is that the Le Mans track was also used as a test bed for road surfaces. In the twenties asphalt was not yet widely accepted as a road surface. As you all know racing was done on the sandy roads. A rain race resulted in particular ideal lines!! Parts of the Le Mans track were surfaced differently as to test what would best to improve the french land roads. On part was surfaced with bricks, including the virage Indianapolis.

 

 

In the latest Motor Sport, the Parting Shot photo is from the 1921 French GP at Le Mans and shows Boillot's Sunbeam barrelling along on a stony track that wouldn't disgrace a forestry rally.  I have often wondered when sealed surfaces became the norm for race venues.  Certainly much footage from the 1920s and before usually shows dirt surfaces.  Some venues were of course hard surfaced - Brooklands, Indianapolis and so on, but was it only purpose built venues that used sealed surfaces?  

 

What was the last major event that ran on dirt roads (I am discounting things like sprint cars or the Gran Premios in Argentina) and how did the move to sealed surfaces proceed?  Was it a point of contention at the time?  

 

Grateful for any insights that the learned members of TNF might be able to contribute!

[Vitesse2]

Some random thoughts, concentrating purely on 'custom-built' road circuits.

 

Indianapolis - despite the 'Brickyard' name it was substantially asphalt-surfaced by the end of the 1930s.

 

Roosevelt Raceway - loose surface in 1936, concrete and asphalt 1937.

 

Monza - mixed surfaces (asphalt, concrete, cobbles) from 1923 into the 1950s, but always metalled in some way.

 

Bremgarten - ditto from 1931, when it opened for bikes.

 

Miramas - concrete.

 

Bathurst opened in 1938 with a graded gravel surface. I think it was asphalted soon afterwards? 1940?

 

Interlagos should have opened in late 1939, again graded gravel. It was breaking up even during practice and the meeting was abandoned due to the weather making things even worse. Asphalted before they raced again in early 1940.

 

Donington Park - mixed surfaces for the early bike meetings, but not really a permanent track. Asphalt from 1933.

 

Crystal Palace ditto - but from 1937.

 

Nürburgring mostly asphalt, but some concrete.

 

Montlhéry - concrete on the oval, asphalt on parts of the road circuit.

 

I can't think of any major public road race in Europe that took place on a completely loose-surfaced track after about 1925, although there were a few where part of the track wasn't metalled. The Targa Florio, for example! Even after WW2 there was the odd ad hoc circuit which might have a short dirt section - there was at least one in France as I recall. 1947 or thereabouts.

[Michael Ferner]

... or Watkins Glen, even later!

This is a great topic! Point of contention? Very much so, in the case of the mentioned 1921 Grand Prix!

[Radoye]

My grandfather raced bikes before the war and into 1950's, nothing major, mostly local races with an odd international event when it was organized in our neck of woods, and they mostly raced on open roads surfaced with crushed stone.

[Vitesse2]

... or Watkins Glen, even later!

This is a great topic! Point of contention? Very much so, in the case of the mentioned 1921 Grand Prix!

On the subject of contention, there was a proposal to run a road race in Auckland in New Zealand in 1940, as part of the Centennial celebrations. The proposed circuit was on suburban roads, but one of the objections put up by local councillors was the cost of actually laying down tarmac for them to race on. In the end, of course, the race was cancelled, due to a combination of the war, petrol rationing and the unlikelihood of foreign participation, so the possible cost of the tarmac turned out to be immaterial.

[Sharman]

Would Bathurst have been tarmacked in 1940, after all Australia was at war? I know the Japanese threat did not come until December 41 but I can't see resources being spent on a race circuit unless there was some other usage in mind.

[Collombin]

Apparently one of the questions Donald Davidson gets asked a lot is whether there is a big hazard on the main straight at IMS, due to the various resurfacings making the main track surface higher than the startline yard of bricks!

[Vitesse2]

Would Bathurst have been tarmacked in 1940, after all Australia was at war? I know the Japanese threat did not come until December 41 but I can't see resources being spent on a race circuit unless there was some other usage in mind.

Mount Panorama was also designed as a scenic drive, so I suspect that any dust kicked up by cars would have been unpopular with people out for a Sunday drive in their best bib and tucker. And the rolled surface broke up badly during the 1938 AGP, especially at the corners.

 

I said 1940 without checking, although I did know that it was already asphalted by Easter 1940 - racing continued in Australia well into 1940, with even some events in early 1941 - but a quick look on Trove tells me that it had been asphalted in time for the Australian TT bike races at Easter 1939. In fact it had already been completed by January 1939:

 

http://trove.nla.gov...its=exactPhrase|||anyWords=tarmac+asphalt|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1938-04-01|||dateTo=1941-12-31|||sortby

 

Two plans for new tarmac-surfaced Australian road circuits were abandoned in late 1939.

[BRG]

Point of contention? Very much so, in the case of the mentioned 1921 Grand Prix!

Could you enlarge on that ?

[ReWind]

From the archive:
Old
threads

[tsrwright]

Following provided to me by the late Mark Joseland then Shelsley Walsh archivist may be of interest:

 

"The question of the track surface is very difficult, and it is very seldom mentioned in the Committee minutes or press reports prior to the 1939 war.  We know that the original surface was composed of the local Woodbury stone chippings, watered and rolled.  This stone is quite soft and consolidates well when rolled, but is dusty when dry.  I think that this material was used right up to 1939, for two reasons: 1)  in 1936 the contractor responsible for the road surface, Mr. Dowding, asked the Club to purchase an old lorry to transport stone up the hill; and 2) when the Paddock sheds were erected in 1936/37, the surface is reported to have consisted of 1,000 tons of stone chippings well rolled in.

 

"In 1946 the track was re-surfaced with Colas bitumen emulsion, apparently sprayed on.  I think that this was the first time that anything was done to seal the surface.  The next complete re-surface was in 1966, though the start area had been re-surfaced prior to this.  I do not know the specification for this work, but there should be a file somewhere.  The next time the hill was re-surfaced was in 1979, when a proper continuous surface of bituminous macadam was machine laid."

[Lee Nicolle]

Mount Panorama was also designed as a scenic drive, so I suspect that any dust kicked up by cars would have been unpopular with people out for a Sunday drive in their best bib and tucker. And the rolled surface broke up badly during the 1938 AGP, especially at the corners.

 

I said 1940 without checking, although I did know that it was already asphalted by Easter 1940 - racing continued in Australia well into 1940, with even some events in early 1941 - but a quick look on Trove tells me that it had been asphalted in time for the Australian TT bike races at Easter 1939. In fact it had already been completed by January 1939:

 

http://trove.nla.gov...its=exactPhrase|||anyWords=tarmac+asphalt|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom=1938-04-01|||dateTo=1941-12-31|||sortby

 

Two plans for new tarmac-surfaced Australian road circuits were abandoned in late 1939.

From what I have read Mt Panorama was always going to be sealed. What was common in that time was to make the road, leave it for about a year to compact then a minor tidy up and seal it. Which may have fitted in with budgets also. 

It was a job making exercise to keep the economy going,, the Govt may not have allocated the funds to seal the road in the same financial year.

IF the economy was better it may well have never happened!

Though what it is now, a racetrack used as a scenic drive compared with 50 years ago [yet alone 75] is mind boggling.

[BRG]

From the archive:
Old
threads

Thanks for finding these.  I did try searching and found some stuff, but not these two threads.

[HistoricMustang]

https://photos.shutt...ull/61580064162

From early 1960's

Macadam................definition of what this is will be appreciated.

Edited by HistoricMustang, 04 August 2016 - 18:00.

[Vitesse2]

https://photos.shutt...ull/61580064162

From early 1960's

Macadam................definition of what this is will be appreciated.

Linky no worky - just leads to a sign-on screen.

 

Macadam

 

Eventually led to:

 

Tarmacadam/Tarmac

[HistoricMustang]

Linky no worky - just leads to a sign-on screen.
 
Macadam
 
Eventually led to:
 
Tarmacadam/Tarmac

Thanks, explains why tire wear was a major problem at the track.

Henry 

[Rob Semmeling]

A few bits & pieces from my own files and notes:

 

Aspendale Park Racecourse

 

In late 1905, owner James Robert Crooke began construction of a new course laid inside the existing horse track at Aspendale Park, "with a view to promoting racing among motor cars," as The Advertiser newspaper reported. Close to a mile in length, the course had slightly banked curves and a gravel surface of crushed cement. Much later, it was later replaced by new oval built either from concrete or bitumen and asphalt.

 

Atlanta Speedway

 

Surface of clay, sand and gravel with asphalt binder.

 

Narragansett Park Speedway

 

Opened as a horse race track in 1867. The historic Narragansett Park oval was paved with asphalt in 1915, which marked the first time this material was used to pave a racing circuit in the United States. The New York Times of 13 August wrote the rebuilt cost over 225,000 dollars and that "the value of asphalt for speedways and roadways will be tested when the new one-mile automobile race track (...) is opened on September 18 with a 100-mile feature contest."

 

Roosevelt Raceway

 

There is some confusion over the original track surface: author Brock Yates describes it as a hard-packed mix of sand and gravel, but a contemporary source states it was composed of sand, clay, asphalt and tar. The 1937 revised course had a renewed surface that consisted of a stone road with an asphaltic binder.

 

Fichtenhainbahn

 

The track surface of this little known banked oval in Germany is described in period sources as "Ölkreide" or oil pastel/crayon.

 

[Allan Lupton]

Fichtenhainbahn

 

The track surface of this little known banked oval in Germany is described in period sources as "Ölkreide" or oil pastel/crayon.

I'd have translated Kreide as chalk, which in both languages means not only the natural soft rock but pastel/crayon.

Since we are not referring to an artist's material, may we translate "Ölkreide" as oiled chalk? Oil as a binding agent for a dusty chalk surface might not be the obvious choice but . . .

[Charlieman]

I do not suppose that this link provides much information but it provides a cracking photograph:

http://www.lincolnsh...ys-winning-ways

[BRG]

It does tell us that the Caerphilly hill climb (is it the same road now regularly used on bike races, I wonder?) was gravel or rolled stone surfaced in 1924.  

[Allan Lupton]

It does tell us that the Caerphilly hill climb (is it the same road now regularly used on bike races, I wonder?) was gravel or rolled stone surfaced in 1924.  

The text is not too reliable I'm afraid, e.g. ERA Ltd. founded in 1924 (should be '34), the schoolboy howler "Nurnbergring", etc.

The famous photo is indeed at Caerphilly in 1924 and Tim Nicholson, in "Sprint", tells us that the surface was even looser than usual.

[Charlieman]

The 1924 Caerphilly hill climb surface was a bit more robust -- just a little bit -- than some of the loose surfaces used for entertainment stages on 1970s RAC rallies. We can use that as a measure of perceived looseness or roughness over time. When was the last hill climb for a regional or national championship conducted over gravel and stone? When were the roads of the Isle of Man (or Northern Ireland circuits) surfaced with tarmac?

[fuzzi]

By 1926 the course had been improved considerably, even the Mountain section had been tarmacked.

[Rob Semmeling]

Since we are not referring to an artist's material, may we translate "Ölkreide" as oiled chalk? Oil as a binding agent for a dusty chalk surface might not be the obvious choice but . . .

Having looked into this a little further, I think the correct English term for "Ölkreide" in this case is oil sand or tar sand. The material was excavated in a mine not far from the track (nowadays a refinery) and reportedly offered exceptional grip in wet conditions.

[D-Type]

Weren't some legs of the Carrera Panamericana run on unsurfaced, ie gravel, roads

[Jon Saltinstall]

I recall reading that the Savannah course used for the American Grand Prize events was surfaced with oiled gravel. Might be from DCN's book on the USGP.......

[DCapps]

The first meeting that the Ascot Park Speedway Association operated Ascot Park was the 26 December 1915 meeting when the track surface was still oiled dirt. The track had been converted from a former horse racing venue to an auto racing track in about three weeks. Most of the oil was spread on the inside lane of the track. The turns had been widened and banking built up, but not oiled. The result was a track that was a very soft, sandy loam resembling a plowed field after just the first event, with it getting worse in subsequent events. {Motor West, 1 January 1916, 18-19} After this debacle, the Speedway Association had the track paved with a combination of asphalt and concrete. {Los Angeles Times, 23 January 1916, VI-6} This asphalt/concrete paving was in use by the time the next event was held on 5 March 1916, being delayed from Washington's Birthday (22 February) due to rain which allowed the work to be completed. {Motor West, 15 March 1916, 12-14}

[E1pix]

Apparently one of the questions Donald Davidson gets asked a lot is whether there is a big hazard on the main straight at IMS, due to the various resurfacings making the main track surface higher than the startline yard of bricks!

The more-frequent Indy visitors here will know better than I, but when we kissed the bricks in 2001 it seemed remarkably level to the track surface.

We surmised that whenever the track gets new pavement, perhaps the bricked start line is raised to the new level (?).

[Collombin]

Yes, I have only been there once, but it was last year, and there was no dip in the straight! The bricks are indeed raised as required.

[kayemod]

Yes, I have only been there once, but it was last year, and there was no dip in the straight! The bricks are indeed raised as required.

 

I've never been to Indy, but the only fairly recent reference in print I can remember related to the infamous F1 race, where one of the Bridgestone runners, M Schumacher of course, thought that the historic bricks weren't acceptable to him, he didn't want to start over them, though of course he didn't care if someone else had to, so they moved the start line. Apparently traction was his only concern, a raised surface wasn't mentioned, so It seems that E.B. is right, the bricks are raised as needed whern resurfacing occurs.

[E1pix]

Yes, I have only been there once, but it was last year, and there was no dip in the straight! The bricks are indeed raised as required.

It seems I read that the track has a stockpile of original bricks for the task -- and that original bricks are still available for keepsake purchase.

[Michael Ferner]

Only 9,000,000 of the original 3,200,000 bricks survive in private collections these days...

[Collombin]

I thought they looked good for 106, maybe that explains it..........

[E1pix]

There's no way the Family would be complicit to such shenanigans.

[JohnB]

When were the roads of the Isle of Man (or Northern Ireland circuits) surfaced with tarmac?

Back to this question... From a book about the early Tourist Trophy car races ('Tourist Trophy' by Richard Hough, 1957), there are a few mentions of the track surfaces. From a quick skim through, here's the relevant bits, mostly about the Isle of Man courses, plus a couple about the Ards course (but not so many - presumably the surfaces everywhere were generally better by then):-


Isle of Man circuits (1905-22):-

(1905)
The course was an admirable one that included every condition likely to be met by the most adventurous Edwardian tourist. Fifty-two miles per lap, almost as many corners as the Targa Florio, a loose surface that could turn to a shallow quagmire in rain, required to be sprayed with a substance called Westrumite, in order to abate the dust nuisance, if it was dry. The surface gave the impression of 'a series of small undulations which make a car dance and jump in an astonishing manner when real speed is attempted'.
(The quoted part is quoted in the book, but with no obvious indication who it should be attributed to.)

(1914 & 22)
For the last two T.T.s on this course the surface was slightly improved. There was macadam and even tarmac on some portions although dust was still a menace when the road was dry, and the dust-laying calcium chloride - excruciatingly painful to the eyes - an almost equal menace when the road was wet.

(Quote from 'The Motor' by Kenelm Lee Guinness, winner in 1914)
There is no doubt that this is a very difficult course, particularly if it is a wet day, as the road conditions vary so greatly and also so frequently. In some places one comes quite suddenly off a soft macadam road on to a surface faced with something not asphalt but apparently quite as hard.

1908 (4-inch) race:-
The road surface was given special attention, the entire course being swept by hand and then treated with a a new dust-laying substance, Akonia dressing, which was laid by two traction engines towing trailers. That notorious section between Sulby Bridge and the village was tarred, a treatment that was found disconcertingly slippery by many drivers, especially in the wet.

1914:-
The roads were still almost entirely untarred and were quite inadequate for cars with top speeds in the 90's.

1914 again:-
It was still pelting and blowing half a gale on Wednesday morning, and though it had stopped by breakfast, the dust-laying calcium chloride which some misguided official had ordered to be put down prevented the surface from drying out, and incidentally gave some agony to the drivers who got it in their eyes and had little sleep that night.


Ards (1928-36):-

Comber's camber was notorious, but for the small cars it had its uses, notably as banking, though the loose surface both here and at Newtonards in the early days could be diabolical, especially to naked arms protruding from cockpits.

1932:-
The course was faster than ever, with a new smooth non-skid surface.

[Edited to correct a couple of typos]

[bradbury west]

Remember too that when Harewood hillclimb started in 1961 it was still the original gravelled track leading down to Stockton Farm before it benefitted from Arnold Burton's legendary generosity for 1962. The photos on the Harewood/YSCC site show this well, esp with a rear shot of Brian Waddilove's E type , BRW26, exiting a corner. Sorry but I cannot post a link.
Roger Lund

[Peter Morley]

The banked track at Sitges in Spain was made from precast concrete by Portland in 1923, and was probably the first such use in Europe.

The idea was to demonstrate the materials suitability for motorways.

[D-Type]

Do you mean precast concrete? I think you mean prestressed concrete, a different animal.
A large precast panel presents significant difficulty attaining a well compacted level sub-base. To form the sub-base to the correct profile for a curved slab such as for banking would be impossible, which would necessitate extensive concrete grouting,
Prestressing of a cast in situ slab would prevent or control cracking. But most motorways have been built using conventional reinforced concrete,​ from the German autobahns to the present day

[Charlieman]

For a racing surface made from prestressed concrete, the steel rods would be in compression. Using 1920s technology in rural Catalonia, on a banked surface, how would you compress the rods?

[Peter Morley]

I'm not sure whether it was pre-stressed or pre-cast!

It's some time since I've had access to the only book on the circuit and that was in Spanish!

I don't recall seeing any sign of reinforcing rods.

Pre-cast is how it was described to me but I wasn't sure how they would have done it.

 

I suspect it was cast in place, on a rocky base without any reinforcement, and the idea was to show that it was a suitable material for roads, which would have then been formed of pre-cast flat sections if they were ever built?

[Allan Lupton]

I suspect it was cast in place, on a rocky base without any reinforcement, and the idea was to show that it was a suitable material for roads, which would have then been formed of pre-cast flat sections if they were ever built?

I'm no Civil Engineer, but long experience as a user tells me that concrete roads are cast in situ. The slabs were usually full two-lane width (say 25 ft.) and their length was similar or perhaps a bit less (say 20 ft.) and the idea of manoeuvring pre-cast slabs of that size into position to make a continuous plane surface beggars belief.

[Peter Morley]

Could be a translation issue from Spanish, I'm also not a civil engineer and it also makes sense to me that you would cast a concrete road in situ, rather than somewhere else (especially in the 1920s).

Whatever the construction method was, Sitges was apparently used by Portland to demonstrate the suitability of their product for roads.

There were some questions about the suitability of Sitges for racing, but a bigger problem was issues like the ticket sellers running off with the gate money!!

[Allan Lupton]

Ah, confused in the translation makes sense!

Mind you Brooklands showed the unsuitability of a concrete surface cast in situ, but laid in too much of a hurry on substrate that was insufficiently compacted. Very rough more or less from the beginning and renowned as a chassis-breaker throughout its life.

One would hope the designer of Sitges learned from the Brooklands experience and I can say that the pre-war concrete motorways, as I experienced them in the 1950s, were not bad at all (apart from the thumping of the tar-sealed joints).

[Peter Morley]

There seems to be a lot of pretty solid rock underneath the concrete at Sitges which combined with the weather probably explains its better condition than Brooklands.

I think we've still got some concrete motorways in Belgium, as you say they aren't bad and don't seem to suffer from potholes and tyre grooves like tarmac but the joints can be thumpy.

[D-Type]

When I visited Sitges, I didn't have a camera with me, unfortunately.  As far as I can recall there were no tell-tale rust marks on the concrete road surface.  

My guess is that it was cast in situ and not reinforced.  

This link includes a photo during construction. https://occhiolungo....terramar-spain/  It looks to me like unreinforced concrete, cast in  situ, with formwork for the steep top lift weighted down with sandbags.  What do the other civil engineers think?
Edit:  I've found this site with recent photos of the circuit as it now http://www.circuitsofthepast.nl/sitges No signs of rusting reinforcement or prestressing strand!   

Edited by D-Type, 01 November 2017 - 18:43.

[Robin Fairservice]

I am a Civil Engineer, and am used to concrete road slabs being cast with steel reinforcement.  Steel reinforcement was a very new idea in the early 1900's.  The reinforcement is really there to withstand inadequacies in the foundation, particularly if you are building roads on sub bases like clay.  It is also included to reduce cracking from shrinkage as the concrete dries out.  It enables the use of concrete with a lower compressive strength.  The consulting firm that I used to work for in the UK designed  some sections of the Monmouth to Newport road with unreinforced concrete, and I think that they also used continuous pours without any joints.  I have often wondered how that road has stood up to about 40 years of life. 

[Michael Ferner]

There seems to be a lot of pretty solid rock underneath the concrete at Sitges which combined with the weather probably explains its better condition than Brooklands.
I think we've still got some concrete motorways in Belgium, as you say they aren't bad and don't seem to suffer from potholes and tyre grooves like tarmac but the joints can be thumpy.

Motorways in Belgium used to be famous for being bumpy to the extreme, yet on my last visit half a year or so ago I was more concerned with the GIANT potholes on the tarmacked sections. We still have lots of miles (well, kilometers) of concrete on German Autobahns, and the quality varies. Generally, it's not too bad.

[D-Type]

I am a Civil Engineer, and am used to concrete road slabs being cast with steel reinforcement.  Steel reinforcement was a very new idea in the early 1900's.  The reinforcement is really there to withstand inadequacies in the foundation, particularly if you are building roads on sub bases like clay.  It is also included to reduce cracking from shrinkage as the concrete dries out.  It enables the use of concrete with a lower compressive strength.  The consulting firm that I used to work for in the UK designed  some sections of the Monmouth to Newport road with unreinforced concrete, and I think that they also used continuous pours without any joints.  I have often wondered how that road has stood up to about 40 years of life. 

I've only been involved marginally in road design, but have done some water-retaining structures where cracking is a major issue.  And tunnel design, where the definitive solution still eludes us.  If you were to look carefully at the Monmouth  road, I'm sure you would find transverse cracks at the proverbial 4 - 5 metre spacing.  I've seen them in roads everywhere.  I'm not sure what difference the lower strength gain of older cements makes: as far as I can see, the crack spacing is about the same so the crack width must be smaller.  If the subgrade is a bit iffy you can get slight settlement of the "slabs" that have formed leading to steps at some of the cracks similar to those at the joints in a road cast in panels.  Unless of course, there are dowels in the joins and they only work if the slabs are reinforced.

 

But to go back to the original query - I'm sure "precast" concrete at Sitges is either a misunderstanding or a translation error.

[Charlieman]

MS magazine (Sept 1924) describes Montlhery: "The track itself is of reinforced concrete pillars, and surfaced with fine cement, the inner ten feet having been specially smoothed for motor cycles, and the top twenty feet considerably roughened to prevent skidding when cars are entering and leaving the bank at high speeds." 

 

The same article mentions pavé construction of public roads in the vicinity. The word pavé is often used loosely and I assume the author means a stone block paved surface, the blocks being held in place by cement or a snug fit.

 

A slightly rusty website at http://www.montlhery...utodrom_eng.htm states: "Two thousand workmen, masons, metal workers, scrap merchants, carpenters and truckdrivers worked for six months on the construction of the track, using 1 000 tons of steel and 8 000 m3 of concrete. Many ready-made units were used, making it an avant-garde construction for that time." I interpret "ready-made units" to mean pre-cast blocks.

 

The Jan 1933 edition of MS magazine features an article about UK road building by a civil engineer. Reading between the lines, it seems that the author regards concrete, asphalt and tarmacadam as mainstream road surfaces. That probably applied to the public roads which would shortly be defined in the Trunk Roads Act 1936. It wouldn't have been true for privately owned country park and farm roads used for motor sport.

 

Does anyone own a decent history book about Crystal Palace? According to Wikipedia: "The [1927] surface had tarmac-covered bends, but the straights only had hard-packed gravel." 

[Vitesse2]

That description is paraphrased from page 11 of Philip Parfitt's 'Racing at Crystal Palace' (MRP 1991). The tar doesn't seem to have been particularly well-laid; on page 19 Parfitt records that the corners 'had received a new coating of tar' in time for the meeting of June 19th 1929, but the high temperatures and vigorous cornering of the sidecar units had broken it up almost immediately. So probably just pure tar poured on top of the gravel paths rather than a more expensive tarmacadam mix.