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Facts, fiction and history


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#1 Gretsch

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 13:34

http://www.autosport...villain-or-hero

I read this in the article:

"Rossi is capable of stepping over the line; his deliberate collision with Marquez that sent the Honda rider to the floor in Malaysia last year is concrete proof of that"

We all know how it works, the years tend to simplify events. Each year they become simpler because there are less people who remembers, or are around t remember, details of what happened. Some events can be simplified, like "Messi scored 3 goals against..." or "Donald Trumps hair looked silly as usual," while other events contains so many pieces of conflicting information that they remain a mystery. You can not for instance write in Encyclopedia Britannica that "Julius Ceasar burned down the library in Alexandria because he was angry and drunk" although it might be true. We don't know. You can also not write in an Autosport article that Schumacher used traction control racing his Benneton B194 although it might be true.

You can also not write that Rossi deliberately collided with Marquez in Malaysia 2015.

Because if you do, it might say so in  Encyclopedia Britannica 2050.

Unless, of course, you know something that we do not, if you know something that has not been shared with the public. But since your job is to do exactly that, share information with the public, I guess we can rule out that possibility.
 



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#2 MCR

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 13:45

 -  need to click title of video to view it

 

It was a deliberate block, it was MM who accelerated into the side of Rossi's leg.

 

Looking at the video for the 1st time 9 months on, I don't think it looks anywhere near as bad as I remember


Edited by MCR, 23 September 2016 - 13:49.


#3 Gretsch

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 13:49

I don't think we need to discuss who did what, my point is that there are many opinions about that incident and as I see it, it remains unresolved. Some will agree with your statement above, others will say Rossi kicked Marquez and others again, obviously, will say Rossi collided deliberately. 



#4 Afterburner

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 18:18

"History is written by the victor; history is filled with liars."

#5 DerFlugplatz

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 22:35

To say Rossi didn't deliberately kick Marquez of his bike is like saying Schumacher didn't deliberately crash into Villneuve back in Jerez 97.



#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 11:28

I'll put myself out there as one who questioned how much Schumacher was at fault for Jerez.

#7 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 13:44

Interesting. The day before yesterday I had a discussion with a historian. The matter itself was not so important (it was whether Weimar was ever the capital of Germany, 'not' according to me and I e-mailed him some 'proof' of that opinion) but his response was interesting, pertaining the discussion at hand:

 

That's funny. The fall of the Weimar Republic is one of the central concepts of modern European history. And then you realise you don't even know what it really entails. And I tell my students to question things!

 

In the end, historians (pro's and amateurs) just have to be honest about fact and probability. Did Schumacher and Villeneuve crash in 1997? Yes. Evidently. Did Schumacher do it on purpose? Probably. The same applies for Exitgate (Monaco 2014), Chicane-gate (Suzuka, 1989). Only when one of the participants is upfront (Senna, Suzuka 1990) about motives, supposed motives become, well, fact...



#8 Gretsch

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 13:44

I'll put myself out there as one who questioned how much Schumacher was at fault for Jerez.

 

I, for one, bet that Autosport never wrote that he was at fault eithere. I can be wrong, I have not read everything they have published. But if they did, they they made a mistake there as well. 



#9 ensign14

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 14:16

"History is written by the victor; history is filled with liars."

 

The greatest work of Greek history was written by Thucydides.  Who not only was on the losing side, got exiled by them for losing a crucial stronghold.

 

I'll put myself out there as one who questioned how much Schumacher was at fault for Jerez.

 

The one, surely?



#10 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 14:46

I, for one, bet that Autosport never wrote that he was at fault either. I can be wrong, I have not read everything they have published. But if they did, they they made a mistake there as well. 

 

 

Can't find the report from Autosport, but...

 

The BBC did not really accuse him of deliberately crashing into Villeneuve:

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...sport/16176.stm

 

The German commentators at the time (Hans Joachim Stuck and somebody else) DO believe it was intentional (Stuck calls it 'eindeutig; undoubtedly):

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=jJJZBgNK7FA

 

 

Quite interesting, one would have expected it to be the other way round...



#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 15:40

I think Pro News has to be careful with wording sometimes. You can say Trump is wrong, it's hard to prove he's lying about something rather than just being an idiot.

#12 Zmeej

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 16:18

Gretsch :wave:

 

We all know how it works, the years tend to simplify events. Each year they become simpler because there are less people who remembers, or are around t remember, details of what happened. Some events can be simplified, like "Messi scored 3 goals against..." or "Donald Trumps hair looked silly as usual," while other events contains so many pieces of conflicting information that they remain a mystery.

 

You can not for instance write in Encyclopedia Britannica that "Julius Ceasar burned down the library in Alexandria because he was angry and drunk" although it might be true. We don't know.

 

 

Hmmm. An interesting meditation on historiography.

 

Otherwise...

 

Precisian's Note 1: years do not "simplify events," they remove those who look back at them from

- the original context;

- access to much corollary information.

 

Precisian's Note 2: not sure what one can "write in the Encyclopedia Britannica" but FWIW, this is what is included in Wiki's entry "Library of Alexandria":


Destruction
 
Main article: Destruction of the Library of Alexandria
 
The famous burning of the Library of Alexandria, including the incalculable loss of ancient works, has become a symbol of the irretrievable loss of public knowledge. Although there is a mythology of "the burning of the Library at Alexandria", the library may have suffered several fires or acts of destruction of varying degrees over many years. Ancient and modern sources identify several possible occasions for the partial or complete destruction of the Library of Alexandria.
 
During [the so-called] Caesar[s'] Civil War, Julius Caesar was besieged at Alexandria in 48 BC. Many ancient sources describe Caesar setting fire to his own ships and state that this fire spread to the library, destroying it.
 

[W]hen the enemy endeavored to cut off his communication by sea, he was forced to divert that danger by setting fire to his own ships, which, after burning the docks, thence spread on and destroyed the great library.
 
— Plutarch, Life of Caesar
 
Bolstering this claim, in the 4th century both the pagan historian Ammianus and the Christian historian Orosius wrote that the Bibliotheca Alexandrina had been destroyed by Caesar's fire. However, Florus and Lucan claim that the flames Caesar set burned only the fleet and some "houses near the sea".
 
The library seems to have continued in existence to some degree until its contents were largely lost during the taking of the city by the Emperor Aurelian (AD 270–275), who was suppressing a revolt by Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. During the course of the fighting, the areas of the city in which the main library was located were damaged. Some sources claim that the smaller library located at the Serapeum survived, though Ammianus Marcellinus wrote of the library in the Serapeum temple as a thing of the past, destroyed when Caesar sacked Alexandria.

Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in AD 391. The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391. The historian Socrates of Constantinople describes that all pagan temples in Alexandria were destroyed, including the Serapeum. Since the Serapeum had at one time housed a part of the Great Library, some scholars believe that the remains of the Library of Alexandria were destroyed at this time. However, it is not known how many, if any, books were contained in it at the time of destruction, and contemporary scholars do not mention the library directly.
 
In AD 642, Alexandria was captured by the Muslim army of 'Amr ibn al-'As. Several later Arabic sources describe the library's destruction by the order of Caliph Omar. Bar-Hebraeus, writing in the 13th century, quotes Omar as saying to Yaḥyā al-Naḥwī: "If those books are in agreement with the Quran, we have no need of them; and if these are opposed to the Quran, destroy them." Later scholars are skeptical of these stories, given the range of time that had passed before they were written down and the political motivations of the various writers.

 

As such, one would not include a sentence such as "Julius Ceasar burned down the library in Alexandria because he was angry and drunk" in any encyclopedia whose publishers/purveyors wished it to be reputable not because "we don't know," but because that's not the kinda thang (stylistically and in terms of presentation of info) that is good for a general reference work's credibility, even though it is kinda funny and at least in the general ballpark of the truth.

 

 

You can also not write in an Autosport article that Schumacher used traction control racing his Benneton B194 although it might be true.

 

There are several ways to include such a claim in an Autosport article, and one would be "Many of Benetton's opponents on the grid suspected that Michael's B194 was illegally rigged with traction control."



#13 Fourtyone

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Posted 24 September 2016 - 17:35

Race Director Mike Webb:  “So in this case Valentino maintains he did not deliberately make the manoeuvre. However our view of the whole situation - looking at all the evidence - is that he deliberately ran wide and therefore deliberately caused the contact by trying to run Marquez off the track."

 

The official verdict states "On 25th October 2015 during the MotoGP race of the Shell Malaysia Motorcycle Grand Prix, you deliberately ran wide on Turn 14 in order to force another rider off line, resulting in contact causing the other rider to crash."

 

That official statement and verdict will be in Encyclopaedia 2050 as facts along with all the video footage too that anyone interested can watch to make their own mind up.


Edited by Fourtyone, 24 September 2016 - 17:36.


#14 ReWind

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 15:10


The German commentators at the time (Hans Joachim Stuck and somebody else) DO believe it was intentional (Stuck calls it 'eindeutig; undoubtedly):

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=jJJZBgNK7FA

 

Not Stuck, but Marc Surer from Switzerland, co-commentator to Jacques Schulz from Germany.



#15 pacificquay

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 08:35

It's an opinion piece rather than a news piece, so the writer can say what he likes to an extent. And as pointed out above, the official verdict rather backs him up.



#16 chunder27

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 14:23

In writing news you can only really write about facts. You job is to provide the reader with the facts only and it is usually the case that you weight the facst from top to bottom as is deemed appropriate.

 

So in the Mail a story might be about a Mum of 4 whose kid spent a grand on Ipad apps.

 

If they were from Bury, the fact she was from there AND a Mum would be up there in a local paper story, along with a location and perhaps some more things relevant to a local paper, these would not matter as much nationally. And the same if the story was in a magazine about tech gadgets, then you would swing it towards that angle.

 

Features are NOT opinion pieces, they are just more flowery, bigger more expansive stories about something.

 

The only people that can offer opinion usually are columnists, or in an editorial perhaps.

 

A forum is none of those things, hence some of us can have our opinions and nobody can disagree wholly.

 

For me the Rossi/ Marquez incident was amazing, and Dorna tried to hush it up as it was (quite rightly) completely overshadowing the championships in all classes. Most sports would die for that sort of controversy, and Rossi would have played a part in it, not sure about Marquez. It was great, both were to blame, both were silly but more blame goes to Marquez as he was trying to outside influence the championship result he had no part to play in anymore.

Pure petulance.