74 replies to this topic

[Mat13]

A.Fant, on 23 Dec 2016 - 12:49, said:

Agreed. It irks me to no end if cars are designed with "locked away" potential that is only allowed under certain conditions. I would also prefer if the moveable aero wasn't restricted to the rear wing and especially if they could make the amount of downforce/drag gradually controlled by the driver. That would certainly make the cars difficult to drive once again as drivers have to try to use as little downforce as possible to go as fast as possible.

 

Yep. It grates on me that most peoples' problem with DRS is that it is a gimmick (rightly so). However, without the gimmicky implementation it's a valid and ingenious aero device. I can't imagine many complained about the F-duct being a gimmick, which is essentially all DRS is.

[Jackmancer]

This topic is like those moral moral dilemmas, asking 'would you rather lose a leg or a testicle?'

[Afterburner]

Jackmancer, on 23 Dec 2016 - 12:59, said:

This topic is like those moral moral dilemmas, asking 'would you rather lose a leg or a testicle?'

Unfair question as I'd imagine for women going from 0 to -1 testicles wouldn't be much of an issue!

[pdac]

Afterburner, on 23 Dec 2016 - 13:47, said:

Unfair question as I'd imagine for women going from 0 to -1 testicles wouldn't be much of an issue!

 

It depends on whose testicle your sacrificing (there was no mention of it having to be your own leg or testicle)

[BuddyHolly]

I can't vote for any of those options, so none.

[HoldenRT]

This is funny.  I always wanted P2P before KERS even came.

Why didn't F1 do that?  Because they always need to see themselves as being superior and having their 'own' ideas for things.  Even if they are more expensive (despite trying to cost cut).

 

So there was KERS (the magic button as Seb loved to call it), then DRS.  I don't actually mind DRS that much, but it depends on the circuit and depends on the circumstances.  For RBR or sometimes Ferrari (in earlier years) DRS was fair.  For Merc, they don't even need DRS.  It's a really hard thing to control.  The only sure thing is when you see an overtake before the braking zone, that's when you know it's too powerful.

 

P2P would be ok, but it would have been better all along.  They've already spent the money developing these systems, so it'd be ironic if they switched now.

 

I've always liked the idea of limited passes per race and having to budget them.  I think the Indycar system works great.

[HoldenRT]

MasterOfCoin, on 22 Dec 2016 - 03:20, said:

Push to pass only works with similar/identical powered cars and chassis, would never work in F1 with all the variable iterations in engine and chassis. 

 

Give all cars an equal amount of bhp boost, and it pretty much works the same as DRS?  Your point about P2P is the same as DRS.. different teams have different aero efficiency, drag levels and ride heights.

Edited by HoldenRT, 23 December 2016 - 16:48.

[senna da silva]

If they had DRS available whenever they wanted we could witness cars trying to go through Eau Rouge with the DRS open, or similar high speed corners. We'd all be able to see which drivers had the biggest onions.

Edited by senna da silva, 23 December 2016 - 18:09.

[EthanM]

This thread makes no sense. They have both DRS and Push to Pass, they just don't call it push to pass, they call it the overtake button, the magic paddle, whatever, in essence though, it's a push to pass system that delivers unsustainable (for longer than a few corners) power within the regulatory limitations in fuel flow and electric energy delivery 

[Archer]

Push to pass that stops once the overtaking car front wing is paralel to the rear wing of the car overtaked. But at the start of the season nobody is allowed to use it. The drivers earn the right to use 1 time for every overtaking to other equal or superior cars that aren't from the same team as the overtaking car. For every "true" overtake a driver makes to a car from a constructor that is ahead in the constructors championship, or 50 points behind, the driver earns 1 push to pass activation that can use or not in that race, if the driver not make use of the number of attempts he earned he is entitled to use it at his own will in any other race of the season, the number of activations is accumulative until the last race of the season.

 

This is more fair with the overtaken car that nowadays is a sitting duck without option to defend, spoils wheel to wheel action, and kind of tries to close loop holes that goes against the spirit of the rule.

[FPV GTHO]

If you opened up DRS usage, you would need it to be a double DRS system to keep the car balanced. A big issue now with its heavy restriction is how much it changes the car balance, as it's only intended to work in a straight line.

These ideas to have DRS neutralised when cars are next to each other would have other consequences as you would no longer see drivers try and get as close as possible. If you've got 2 overtakes: situation A the chasing driver comes from 10m behind before having the DRS switched off. Situation B the driver comes from only 5 metres behind. You're wiping away any motivation to get as close as possible.

[rodlamas]

Push to Pass

 

Unlimited use during the race

Must be within 1 second of the car

Can be used to defend against P2P

It works until you step on the brakes

Increases fuel flow in 10% and maximum ERS output in 10%

 

Rationale: you can use it to overtake, but you have to manage it, otherwise you run out of fuel or drain up your batery.

[Archer]

rodlamas, on 26 Dec 2016 - 01:43, said:

 

Push to Pass

 

Unlimited use during the race

Must be within 1 second of the car

Can be used to defend against P2P

It works until you step on the brakes

Increases fuel flow in 10% and maximum ERS output in 10%

 

Rationale: you can use it to overtake, but you have to manage it, otherwise you run out of fuel or drain up your batery.

 

 

I must admit that you have a very good point in relation to the fuel comsuption, and still is a lot more fair than the DRS system, at least the defending car has a chance to fight.

[Gorma]

rodlamas, on 26 Dec 2016 - 01:43, said:

Push to Pass

Unlimited use during the race
Must be within 1 second of the car
Can be used to defend against P2P
It works until you step on the brakes
Increases fuel flow in 10% and maximum ERS output in 10%

Rationale: you can use it to overtake, but you have to manage it, otherwise you run out of fuel or drain up your batery.

That isn't really that different from what we have now. All cars have some sort of overtake button/engine mode that briefly increases power, fuel consumption and battery drain.

[PayasYouRace]

Archer, on 26 Dec 2016 - 00:29, said:

Push to pass that stops once the overtaking car front wing is paralel to the rear wing of the car overtaked. But at the start of the season nobody is allowed to use it. The drivers earn the right to use 1 time for every overtaking to other equal or superior cars that aren't from the same team as the overtaking car. For every "true" overtake a driver makes to a car from a constructor that is ahead in the constructors championship, or 50 points behind, the driver earns 1 push to pass activation that can use or not in that race, if the driver not make use of the number of attempts he earned he is entitled to use it at his own will in any other race of the season, the number of activations is accumulative until the last race of the season.

 

This is more fair with the overtaken car that nowadays is a sitting duck without option to defend, spoils wheel to wheel action, and kind of tries to close loop holes that goes against the spirit of the rule.

 

That would never work. Imagine the arguments of teams, at the first race of the season, trying to claim that they have the worse car so that they'd earn DRS.

 

Unless what you're doing is making a system where it would never be used, which in that case you should just say removed it altogether. Without DRS it's hard enough to pass a slower car. With those rules in place it would never be used.

 

 

FPV GTHO, on 26 Dec 2016 - 01:35, said:

If you opened up DRS usage, you would need it to be a double DRS system to keep the car balanced. A big issue now with its heavy restriction is how much it changes the car balance, as it's only intended to work in a straight line.

These ideas to have DRS neutralised when cars are next to each other would have other consequences as you would no longer see drivers try and get as close as possible. If you've got 2 overtakes: situation A the chasing driver comes from 10m behind before having the DRS switched off. Situation B the driver comes from only 5 metres behind. You're wiping away any motivation to get as close as possible.

 

Regarding your first paragraph, no it wouldn't need that. DRS would be used on the straights or if the driver was feeling brave on some corners. It would be a major risk to open it other than on straights and that would give the driver some more say in whether a pass happened or not.

Your second paragraph doesn't make sense. Having the DRS close when the pass is completed doesn't change the driver's motivation to make the pass. It wouldn't make a difference whether the driver is 5 or 10 m behind, they're still going want to get their car in a position to either slipstream past or out-brake. I really don't understand where you're coming from.

[SonJR]

P2P.

Seems to require more skill and strategy, more driver influence in that sense.

[OO7]

rodlamas, on 26 Dec 2016 - 01:43, said:

 

Push to Pass

 

Unlimited use during the race

Must be within 1 second of the car

Can be used to defend against P2P

It works until you step on the brakes

Increases fuel flow in 10% and maximum ERS output in 10%

 

Rationale: you can use it to overtake, but you have to manage it, otherwise you run out of fuel or drain up your batery.

 

This would create the illusion of a strategic element, but in reality this scenario would unfold in a similar manner to the previous turbo era, where the cars with the most efficient engines would save fuel, then turn up the boost for an easy overtake.

[johnmhinds]

Feels like the question is just asking which brand of band aid is better.

If the cars were designed correctly in the first place and they could follow each other then we wouldn't have any need for either idea.

[Clatter]

Mat13, on 23 Dec 2016 - 12:55, said:

Yep. It grates on me that most peoples' problem with DRS is that it is a gimmick (rightly so). However, without the gimmicky implementation it's a valid and ingenious aero device. I can't imagine many complained about the F-duct being a gimmick, which is essentially all DRS is.

That's because it's the implementation that makes DRS a gimmick, not the device itself.

[Tsarwash]

Many more DRS zones during a lap, but much shorter zones, so that it doesn't allow you to just fly past, and if a car is overtaken, it gets a chance to fight back, hopefully at the very next corner.

[Mat13]

Clatter, on 27 Dec 2016 - 19:54, said:

That's because it's the implementation that makes DRS a gimmick, not the device itself.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said...

[septerra]

KERS

[mphilipp]

sopa, on 22 Dec 2016 - 15:11, said:

Actually the aero regs went through a significant change before 2009. And the main argument back then was to increase overtaking opportunities. But engineers still found a way, how to make these cars aerodynamically efficient, and thus hard to overtake.

 

I think before 2011 FIA & Co sort of gave up - "Hell, those aerodynamicists and modern technology is too smart. We can't outsmart them. Let's try something else."

Exactly! Changing the regs is way too complicated and a clever engineer will always find something to counter the regs. Then you get these impossible situations where they find out the trick and ban this specific thing. On to the next trick... No, that wouldn't work.

DRS is not so unfair or artificial as some make it out to be. It only works if you're actually quicker than the car in front. He'll catch you next lap if you're not able to pull away (i.e being quicker). It's just a method to counter silly aero tricks designed to generate more dirty air behind the cars.

[FBJim]

I prefer DRS. It's not perfect, but I see it as a way to mitigate an existing problem that's been going on since the introduction of wings- the car in front has an inherent advantage because of dirty air. That's why I think the complaints about the car behind being advantaged are off-base. It's not that you're advantaging the car behind, you're trying to mitigate the existing advantage that the car in front gets.

 

 

[rodlamas]

OO7, on 27 Dec 2016 - 19:26, said:

This would create the illusion of a strategic element, but in reality this scenario would unfold in a similar manner to the previous turbo era, where the cars with the most efficient engines would save fuel, then turn up the boost for an easy overtake.

No, because fuel allowance for the race is much stricter nowadays and you would still have a fuel flow limit.