100 replies to this topic

[Kenzclass]

Was Jim McKeown's Mk 1 a genuine LC, or his GT with a Twinc inserted?

A genuine L-C, modified from a road car, supplied from memory, by Coffey's in Melbourne.

The car, then registered HUN 999, was the subject of a full road test in, I think, SCW before Jim got it.

[Pat Clarke]

 

"Moffat spent a bit of time working in the Team Lotus garages (doing what, I don't know)..."

 

How about pit crewing on the Indy 500 winning Jim Clark Lotus in 1965?  ;-)

 

Pat

Edited by Pat Clarke, 11 January 2017 - 01:00.

[Porsche718]

How about pit crewing on the Indy 500 winning Jim Clark Lotus in 1965?  ;-)

 

Pat

 

Hey Pat, all I meant by my remark was that of all the time Moffat spent with Mustangs, Mazdas and Monzas, I've never heard of him being particularly "hands-on" mechanically. So I was not sure of what role he had within a Team Lotus race weekend.

 

Cheers Steve

[ellrosso]

A few more : Tas : Garth Wigston in Peter Cloak's car (Southern Motors-Ford dealer), Tony Calvert in the ex Bessant, Millen car. Also Don Elliot never raced the LC - always driven by Pare. NSW : Pat Hogan, David Missingham and of course Bob Lynch in the ex McKeown Mk1.

If Mk 2's are included, Bryan Cook in the ex McKeown car. Pics of all these on ORP site if anyone wants to check.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by TerryS
....He claims to have raced his LC from 1964 to 66, yet he sold it to Brian Michelmore in early 1965.....

Where is the information that he sold it to Michelmore?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by TerryS
.....The statement that Andriesse' Lotus Cortina went to Michelmore was based on his pit board at recent Monterey Reunion.

I understand that there's a picture of of Michelmore on that pit board and that Brian was surprised to learn of it...

But if that is the case it compounds the felony! That car came to Australia with its then-owner, and therefore couldn't be 'one of the three' spoken of on Andriesse's page on the Lotus Cortina site.

Though I did learn something about 'the three' during my enquiries. Apparently the competition Lotus Cortinas, of which 97 were built, were always allocated to a distributor in threes, so Australia got three. Where is the third?

Certainly it's not the Andriesse car or the Michelmore car whether they are the same car or not, as they don't have certain of the components that the competition version had. But it is true that the Michelmore car has the faster-ratio steering box and still has today.

Two of the 'three' are the Bob Jane car, which started racing at Mallala in October and the Geoghegan car, which first ran at Catalina Park on November 8.

Could it be that the Jim Palmer/Jackie Stewart car which ran in the 6-hour at Sandown on November 29, was bought through the Australian distributorship? It won the Pukekohe 6-hour on October 10, which was its first outing, then it had second-fastest practice time (behind the Galaxie) at Sandown, ahead of Jane.

Certainly it wasn't the Moffat car, which was race-weary and highly modified, and came from America and almost didn't make it.

If anyone has further suggestions, please make them...

[Kenzclass]

A further question on the Geoghegan "works" car.

After the post-Catalina rebuild, did it retain alloy closing panels (repaired or replaced?), all of which appear to have been damaged in the roll-over.

A similar question applies to the panels after the two Melit accidents.

It'd be interesting to know what material those panels are of, on that car currently.

[Paul Newby]

I interviewed Brian Michelmore for Australian Muscle Car magazine two years ago. This is what he had to say about his Lotus Cortina:

 

"Bought a Lotus Cortina in 1965. Dad and I were driving to Bathurst and on Parramatta Rd I saw a Lotus Cortina on the side street. An old English guy was trading in this 3,000 mile car - an original version (coil sprung A arm suspension.) It had a tall first gear and close ratio box - couldn't drive it in the city. Don't know how much it cost as my father purchased it. There were hardly any in the country. First race was a 1 Hour production race at Lakeside, which I won. Only raced once interstate at the 1966 NSWTCC at Catalina - put it on pole, broke lap record and won the race. Couldn't afford to race it on my wages."

 

 

 

 

[Ray Bell]

Yes, Paul, I think we can completely quash the idea of the Michelmore car being the one in question...

And Terry has posted on another thread, determined (it seems) to stick to his word and not post on this one again, that the Jim Palmer car was not a competition model.

[Wirra]

Yes, Paul, I think we can completely quash the idea of the Michelmore car being the one in question...

 

If Michelmore's dad bought it for him, what's not to say Andriesse's dad did the same for his son? Just saying.

 

I just see Andriesse's claim would have absolutely no significance in the US, so what would possibly prompt him to fabricate such?

Edited by Wirra, 12 January 2017 - 09:11.

[Ray Bell]

Why does the WWF tell us about the baby seals being clubbed to death?

And tell Americans that kangaroos are an endangered species?

And if Andriesse's father did buy the car and bring it from England, doesn't it further discredit the story anyway? "One of three cars..."

[Porsche718]

Though I did learn something about 'the three' during my enquiries. Apparently the competition Lotus Cortinas, of which 97 were built, were always allocated to a distributor in threes, so Australia got three. Where is the third?
 

 

So have have we established where the third is?

[Ian G]

Harry Firth had one(according to legend) in his workshop when preparing the GT-500's.He also drove one in the 1968 Southern Cross Rally,not sure if it was the same one.

[Ray Bell]

A lightweight competition one?

Or merely a Lotus Cortina?

[Paul Newby]

Sorry Ray, isn't the aim of this thread is to determine whether Roger Andriesse's claims are correct or not? We've established that he did have a Lotus Cortina and did "participate" though not necessarily raced at Warwick Farm in 1964. Andriesse believes that his car was later sold to Brian Michelmore who raced it from 1965 to 1967. I don't think we have evidence yet to refute this claim. I have a photo from Brian, which I can't post here (but am happy to email) labelled the 1965 Lakeside Production 1 Hour race, which shows his Lotus Cortina with NSW registration DHC-398 and black wheels. I noted that the photo of Andriesse's Lotus Cortina had black wheels, which would have been a bit unusual back then?

 

As for this being Lotus Cortina being one of the three competition cars bought into Australia - I don't know. But the ex-Michelmore car apparently still exists in Queensland today. I've seen Michelmore reunited with this car as late as 2011 (I have a photo of this as well.)

 

[Ray Bell]

Michelmore was from Casino, so NSW registration was appropriate...

I've now seen the pit display board from the Monterey Historics where Andriesse claims his car became the Michelmore car. But what I was looking for was black wheels, and I know it's not hard to paint wheels, but Michelmore doesn't appear to have black wheels on his car. So if he had black wheels for that first race, it would have only been that one race.

So, let's look at the contradictions:

1. Claims he raced in Australia 1964-1966 - and that his car went to Michelmore, who raced his Lotus Cortina from May 2, 1965

2. No race reports or entry lists found thus far include the Andriesse name

3. No photos have turned up of the Andriesse car with numbers as used in a race

On the evidence we now have, it is possible that the Andriesse car became the Michelmore car but we'd have to accept that Andriesse never raced it even if it did go on the Warwick Farm short circuit. And that it's not one of any 'three cars' imported.

But the jury is still out...

[Paul Newby]

Ray, it doesn't appear that I can use the quote facility from my work computer. To answer your questions;

 

1. I don't believe Andriesse "raced" his Lotus Cortina - certainly not at State or National meetings. However I think that his Cortina may have gone to Michelmore - I've sent you a photo of Michelmore racing at Lakeside in 1965 with black wheels and NSW rego DHC-398, which is a mid 1964 plate. The rego plate wouldn't have been put on by Michelmore in 1965. By that time (1965) he had left Enterprise Auto Service (the Casino Ford dealer) and moved to Queensland anyway.

 

2. Agreed.

 

3. Agreed

 

Not sure about being one of the "three cars imported" quote - but there can't have been too many Lotus Cortinas in Australia in mid 1964...

 

[Ray Bell]

Yes, I got that photo, Paul, thank you...

There is one body quirk on that photo that matches the other Andriesse photos, so it's looking more and more likely that they are one and the same.

I suspect that the NSW rego stayed in place for some time. He was still wearing that plate towards the end of the year, but covered it up after that and then there was no plate by the middle of '66.

By the way, to quote or post pics or anything normal, click on this little thing on the top left:



They say that icon is a light bulb, but I can't see it.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 27 April 2018 - 08:44.

[Ian G]

Was Jim McKeown's Mk 1 a genuine LC, or his GT with a Twinc inserted?

 

The Mk 2 was apparently built up from a shell,i also read a few years back on a Forum by a self-appointed expert that the Mk 1 wasn't genuine either but i notice a post in this Thread saying it was,so there you go.

 

http://www.cortina-m...php/t-1602.html

[Ray Bell]

The first McKeown car was purchased as a genuine Lotus Cortina from Coffeys, probably the first Lotus Cortina in Australia...

[DanTra2858]

Lance Ruting was in attendance at all WF Club practice meetings as well as Club Race Meetings so a search of his files would or should show the Andriesse car Lance also attended many Hill Climbs as well.

[Ray Bell]

So you mean 'Club Practice Days' or 'Club Race Meetings', Daniel?

Is there anyone knows if and when Club Practice days were conducted in those years?

[DanTra2858]

From memory all Club Practice days were on Saturday, spending the day at the Farm after Friday night shift was real hard, one could actually achieve 50+ miles of practice on the day.

As I stated Lance would be at both, have photos to prove the statement.

[Ray Bell]

I can well believe Lance would be there, Daniel...

He didn't live far away, his Magnette needed a bit of a run and he could sell photos.

[Stinky]

Hi Dan;

CAMS Observed Practice (COP) days were always held on a Saturday wherever the venue.

AARC Club practice days were a Sunday affair.

Were a fantastic training venue for all officials.

(Pity they are not held these days.)

The reason I know this was that you would get home around 2am from a stinking hot Oran Park night meeting and front up for a practice day at 10 am for one of them

Being a Fire Marshal you were definitely feeling second hand for them.

Cheers.

Roger.

[DanTra2858]

Roger I was talking 1964 would that make a difference?

[Stinky]

Hi Dan;;

Could quite possibly.

Just a tads before my time.

Cheers.

Roger.

[Ray Bell]

No CAMS Observed Practice until around 1970, IIRC...

Definitely not in 1964.

[Ray Bell]

I have spoken to Brian Michelmore about the purchase of his Lotus Cortina...

His story is that he and his father went to Sydney and he was keen on buying one. Very few were around at the time, of course, it would have been less than two years since they were first released in England, maybe a year since the Coffey/McKeown car arrived to be the first in Australia. The prospect of finding one for sale was very, very remote and I have no doubt that if the purpose of their trip was to buy one they were expecting to get one new... but I didn't ask him about this.

As they drove down Parramatta Road, which was festooned with car dealerships, he saw the Lotus Cortina in a side street beside a car dealer;'s and told his dad to turn around and go back. They started to look at the car and a salesman came out and said, "Do you know what you're looking at?" Of course Brian said he did, the salesman offered to take them for a run around the block, but Brian said he didn't need to do that. The salesman insisted and proceeded to try to prove he was Stirling Moss!

Inside, the owner was still going through the motions of selling the car to the dealership. "It was an old man who owned it," Brian said, "he'd migrated to Australia and brought the car with him, but soon found that the 50mph first gear meant too much clutch-slipping for his liking and so he wanted to sell."

Question: How old is Andriesse?

Certainly not old enough to have been regarded as an 'old man' in 1965!

Could it be that the 'old man' was the father (or uncle or some other friend or relative) of Andriesse's? Brian says he is sure the car had never previously been on a circuit.

The car had only done about 3,000 miles when Brian bought it, so it hadn't been many places.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 16 January 2017 - 01:24.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wirra
Here is an image of Rodger Andriesse racing a Lotus Cortina in Australia.
 

Peter, could you please send me a higher resolution version?

[Wirra]

Will do Ray.

 

Who told Brian that story, the owner or the salesman? If it was driven in the UK would not the tall 1st issue have occurred, yet he appeared so attached to the car that he brought it to Oz? 

 

What I've also found interesting is the early cars ('64) weren't ordered by the drivers. The dealerships had them and had to flog them off.

 

I'm not too sure how long Bob Caddy owned his car (12-18 mths?) but he took it back to the dealer and traded it on a Morris 1100.

[seldo]

Will do Ray.
 
Who told Brian that story, the owner or the salesman? If it was driven in the UK would not the tall 1st issue have occurred, yet he appeared so attached to the car that he brought it to Oz? 
 ....

That may have been of necessity, since in order to be able to import a car with immigration you had to have 'owned and used' it o/s for 12 months prior. He may have bought it for its rarity status and, like it or not, was stuck with it.

Edited by seldo, 16 January 2017 - 03:22.

[Lee Nicolle]

Will do Ray.

 

Who told Brian that story, the owner or the salesman? If it was driven in the UK would not the tall 1st issue have occurred, yet he appeared so attached to the car that he brought it to Oz? 

 

What I've also found interesting is the early cars ('64) weren't ordered by the drivers. The dealerships had them and had to flog them off.

 

I'm not too sure how long Bob Caddy owned his car (12-18 mths?) but he took it back to the dealer and traded it on a Morris 1100.

Now talk about a bad deal,, and going backwards. 

And 50 years on the Cortina is quite desireable and a good 1100 is worth about 3k at best. or about $70 a ton!

I have driven a Lotus Mk1 Escort and first gear was not really a drama,, the engines lack of bottom end however was. A 3500 and up power band is not nice in traffic.

[Ray Bell]

Back to addressing the original subject...

I am now of the opinion there is very little doubt about the claim that Andriesse is seen driving the car which Michelmore bought. Three distinguishing points in the photos from Warwick Farm (Club Practice Day, 16th October, 1964) are still present on the car as driven by Michelmore at Lakeside on May 2, 1965. This is clear from the photo Paul Newby has sent me.

Peter also points to a magazine article about Andriesse in latter days in America. In that he says that he had a 1961 Porsche 356B which he hillclimbed with some success and then tried racing, but had no success prior to getting the Lotus Cortina.

I have found in RCN and also AMS a mention of Andriesse. These record him competing in two hillclimbs:

Amaroo Park July 28, 1963 - Closed (ie. Club) Hillclimb conducted by North Shore Sporting Car Club - 2nd in 1600cc GT class

Amaroo Park September 15, 1963 - Closed Hillclimb conducted by North Shore Sporting Car Club - 1st in 1600cc GT class

Andriesse was a member of the North Shore Sporting Car Club, only his club and invited club members could compete, no special licence required.

Thus far the only evidence we have of him in the Lotus Cortina is at the AARC Club Practice Day at Warwick Farm, again a Closed event with no special licence required.

If Stephen (or anyone else) has programmes for AARC Club Race Meetings in May, August or October 1963, or some time in April or May 64, or August '64 they could look for Andriesse's name in the entry list for the GT class in '63 or Sports Cars in '64. The November 1, 1964 meeting might have some prospect of him running the Lotus Cortina.

Based on the known history of Andriesse's competition, I don't think it likely he ran at any Open Race Meetings. But I am open to proof of any entry he may have made.

As he departed for America in mid-1965 and the Lotus Cortina was sold about March '65, I don't think it would be necessary to look beyond the end of '64.

[Wirra]

Contact has been made with Roger Andriesse and the following statements made.

 

The car was purchased in Jan '64 from a Ford Dealer in Dee Why and sold to a car yard on Parramatta Rd

He knew John Uren but does not recall Bob Caddy.

 

If we take that information on face value it would suggest:

If LCs were shipped in 3s then his car was very likely a sister to the Bob Caddy and John Uren cars as all three were purchased in Jan '64.

In the photo of Roger leading another LC off The Causeway the other car is more likely John Uren. As LCs were very rare and Bob Caddy does not recall Roger and Roger does not recall Bob, it would suggest they probably didn't compete against each other.

 

Caddy states he purchase his car from Narrabeen (Swan Motors?) and Roger stated he purchased his from Dee Why so I wonder if they are talking about the same dealership?

 

I can just imagine '60s Salesman telling a potential buyer the the car was "just like McKeown's and Geoghegan's" and the likelihood that connection becoming fixed in a buyer's mind.

Edited by Wirra, 31 January 2017 - 05:20.

[seldo]

At around this time (late 64, early 65) I knew of another LC used locally (Sydney E subs) by a very handy kiwi guy Peter Brennan. I believe that the car did some club work in his hands.

[Lee Nicolle]

At around this time (late 64, early 65) I knew of another LC used locally (Sydney E subs) by a very handy kiwi guy Peter Brennan. I believe that the car did some club work in his hands.

The same Peter Brennan who has raced classic 5000s?

[seldo]

The same Peter Brennan who has raced classic 5000s?

I don't know Lee. At the time, he was a mate of a mate.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wirra
Contact has been made with Roger Andriesse and the following statements made.
 
The car was purchased in Jan '64 from a Ford Dealer in Dee Why and sold to a car yard on Parramatta Rd
He knew John Uren but does not recall Bob Caddy.....

Thank you, Peter, that's helpful information.
 

If we take that information on face value it would suggest:

If LCs were shipped in 3s then his car was very likely a sister to the Bob Caddy and John Uren cars as all three were purchased in Jan '64.

In the photo of Roger leading another LC off The Causeway the other car is more likely John Uren. As LCs were very rare and Bob Caddy does not recall Roger and Roger does not recall Bob, it would suggest they probably didn't compete against each other.
 
Caddy states he purchase his car from Narrabeen (Swan Motors?) and Roger stated he purchased his from Dee Why so I wonder if they are talking about the same dealership?

There's a good chance they are...

The 'shipped in threes' arrangement, however, related only to the factory lightweights.
 

.....I can just imagine '60s Salesman telling a potential buyer the the car was "just like McKeown's and Geoghagan's" and the likelihood that connection becoming fixed in a buyer's mind.

In January 1964 McKeown's car had only just had its first race, it was yet to appear in NSW, while the Geoghegan car was still months away.

[Wirra]

...The 'shipped in threes' arrangement, however, related only to the factory lightweights.

 

Is that correct? As I've been told even the Elans came in threes, the first shipment to Derek Jolly and the second to Geoghegans.

 

...In January 1964 McKeown's car had only just had its first race, it was yet to appear in NSW, while the Geoghegan car was still months away.

 

Yes, I was perhaps drawing a long bow on that one.

Edited by Wirra, 31 January 2017 - 05:18.

[Porsche718]

 

The car was purchased in Jan '64 from a Ford Dealer in Dee Why and sold to a car yard on Parramatta Rd

Caddy states he purchase his car from Narrabeen (Swan Motors?) and Roger stated he purchased his from Dee Why so I wonder if they are talking about the same dealership?

 

 

The Ford Dealer would have been Pacific Ford at Brookvale. The dealership was located right on the boundary of Brookvale and Dee Why where Warringah Road meets Pittwater Road.

 

Over the years Pacific Ford seemed to sell a lot of semi-race spec cars. Falcon GTs, HOs, Cobras etc. I was assistant service manager during the late 70's early 80's.

[Ian G]

Yeah,Ross Hannon's Holden Dealership up the road was the same with GMH,he was an ex-GMH Exec. and had the inside running on the popular colours & models,if you wanted an XU1,and later the L-34 and A9X he was the guy that seemed to be able to source them.

[Ray Bell]

Peter, if you have contact with Andriesse, is it possible you can put the present owner in touch with him?

Also, I can find no evidence whatever that he raced either car. I've looked into every report I can find, and to be honest it doesn't fit with his proven record.

I've put the word out for any programmes from AARC Club Meetings to see if he's in any in either car, but it might take a while to find them. I see it as being very unlikely he raced at any other race meetings.

[zombie289]

Hi Guys, I have met Roger a few times, at Monterey and at Coronado, he is a very modest guy, who appears to not have an agenda about creating stories. As noted recently, it appears that his car was sold to Michaelmore. Rogers recollection of  racing his Cortina was that it was a short lived afair and that the engine got damaged (bearings IIRC). If i see him at Monterey this year I'll pick his brain again.

 

Another Lotus Cortina that raced in the 60's was one raced by David Missingham (YES, the famous Ford Pro Stock racer!) in the late 60's. The car was used in a heasman suspension ad at the time. I was told by my friend, who now owns the car, that it was bought from the Geoghegans as a road car. It was restored in the early 90's as a street car (alloy panel A-Frame car).

 

Also someone questioned whether the Mckeowan car was a real Lotus, It was, but I believe his Mk 2 was a GT bodyshell supplied by ford, which was built by Jim into a Lotus. Great Thread guys!

[Wirra]

Reportedly a 1967 ad for Swan Motors.

 

https://www.flickr.c...@N04/6484730137

 

Scroll down for logo.

 

http://grafixunlimit...alership_decals

Edited by Wirra, 24 April 2018 - 09:00.

[Ray Bell]

Any chance you can put that on Postimage, Peter?

I can't access it on Flickr.

[Porsche718]

Is this what you wanted Ray?

 

[Ray Bell]

Poor copy-writing there...

It should say 'confidence', not 'competence'.

Yes, this ad would have to be from 1967 because the 1300cc engine came out that year and the 1500cc engine was done away with for 1968 when the crossflows arrived.

[Wirra]

Just a bit of an update on the '64 Australian Hillclimb Championship, class winning, 'Caddy' car.

 

After 33 years in safe storage the car has received a complete bare shell 'honest' restoration over the past 3 years. Only a few perishable items have been replaced.

 

The owner/restorer makes the rare claim that Jim Clark never drove this car!

 

 

 

 

Bits of trim were still being reattached to the front when I saw it so I'll post some full-car images later. 

[john medley]

Please give Stevie my kind regards